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Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
May 14th 2023 at 3:16:19 PM •••

Okay I'd like to start a discussion on Arch-Enemy.

Gregzilla removed all entries to Arch-Enemy barring Thawne.

While I agree that it got a bit oversaturated with several guys who don't belong there. There are a few who got cut that could do with more discussion.

Per this from the Arch-Enemy trope page:

A hero may possess more than one Arch-Enemy if more than one villain from his Rogues Gallery stand out, or if a former Arch-Enemy dies and new one comes in to the picture.

Essentially an Arch-Enemy is the villain with a big It's Personal claim with the hero and the one they hate the most.

While Thawne is the longest running one, I'd argue that there are a few periods that Barry's hatred for another villain equalled or even eclipsed Thawne.

  • Zoom. He made Barry suffer far far worse than Thawne did in Season 1, breaking the poor boy both physically and psychologically, while constantly kidnapping and torturing his friends. But the real kicker was of course, killing Barry's father, to parallel Thawne killing his mother. This drove Barry into a murderous rage that he never experienced with Season 1 Thawne.

  • Savitar. Arch-Enemy is about a villain who holds an It's Personal relationship with the Hero, and I'd say you can't get closer to that than fighting an evil you from the future. Abra Kadabra specifically compared Savitar with Thawne and emphasized Savitar hurt Barry more than Thawne ever did. His act of killing Iris broke Barry like no other villain before, as we can see from Future Emo Barry, Savitar's actions have defined Barry's life for a decade. Once again, I'd argue he actually eclipsed Season 1 Thawne in how personal it was to Barry.

  • Devoe. He's the only one I'm a little iffy on, but overall I still sense a similar level of hatred and hurt from Barry seen from the previous 3. Devoe's actions hit Barry at a very personal level with how hard Devoe targets and screws with Barry's life, with the cherry on top being framing Barry for murder and incriminating him, followed by killing Ralph (at least what they thought at the time).

The other guys from S5 onwards, none of them have ever reached the level of personal these have and I agree should be cut.

Edited by Snowy66 Hide / Show Replies
hunter139 Since: Jul, 2014
May 14th 2023 at 5:29:59 PM •••

Yeah, I'd definitely agree that Zoom and Savitar deserve a spot on the list at the very least. I think De Voe doesn't qualify as much as an Arch Enemy, but Zoom and Savitar definitely made things personal in a way that Thawne only surpassed in later seasons.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
May 15th 2023 at 12:16:54 AM •••

Precisely. If it wasn’t for Thawne’s return in later seasons, maybe he wouldn’t make the list at all.

Edited by Snowy66
hunter139 Since: Jul, 2014
May 15th 2023 at 6:40:32 AM •••

I wouldn’t go that far. What Thawne did in S1 still qualifies as Arch Enemy material.

jahman Since: Dec, 2014
May 15th 2023 at 7:08:54 AM •••

Zoom and Savitar. They also seem to fit with Barry'a arc of being His Own Worst Enemy during the first three seasons.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
May 16th 2023 at 8:34:10 PM •••

I’d also argue Snart doesn’t really count, as he was always treated more like a Friendly Enemy and Worthy Opponent, to the point where Barry could reason with him.

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