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Can someone please tell me why Homura keeps getting labeled an emotional abuser on these pages? She has a very good reason for being distant and cold throughout the series and it's made very clear that she doesn't want to be, but she's run out of ideas and other options. Does it not count as an attempt at saving someone's life if she's not all bubbles and rainbows about it?
Some people didn't like Homura in the series and Rebellion "justified" their hate even further. Homura isn't an abuser. They aren't two humans. They're a magical girl/demon and magical girl/god.
She objectively isn't in the series unless we want to use a very broad interpretation of abuse and psychopathy. She's made and will probably continue to make a lot of bad decisions in any follow up work, but will eventually be redeemed. She has never in canon tried to hurt Madoka and only insults her out if justifiable frusteration.
The entire character conflict that is guarenteed to happen will be tragic, but like every thing else in this series, they will over come it and we as the audience will be granted catharisis.
So, is this show a deconstruction or not? The various pages about trope deconstruction make different points about why it is while the page Darker&Edgier claims that it's darker&edgier, but Not A Deconstruction, with the additional note that it's (solely) a reconstruction instead.
In my opinion, the show is simply darker and edgier than the usual Magical Girl show, but it's in no way more realistic, like how it had to be in reality, mandatory. For example, regarding the deconstruction entry for this show, the mentor pet, which in this case is a meany who wants to turn girls into monsters, could as well want to get rid of dangerous monsters, it could just be both of it, it doesn't have to be any of it, so it's not deconstructive by that. It's just a dark variation, and I think this is the case with every other element in the show.
Additionally, I would say, this is the case with the entire Magical Girl genre, because it's mainly based on magic, and magic can be about anything, but not realistic.
So, would someone post another opinion on that matter or point something out that I got wrong about the show or the nature of a deconstruction?
I think it's actually both; the more realistic aspects make it darker and edgier. The things about magical girl shows that raise questions that are ignored or have silly answers actually do have answers in Madoka, and they're usually pretty dark.
Why do the monsters only attack the city where the magical girls live? Because magical girls turn into monsters.
Why doesn't anyone just attack them during the transformation sequence? Because they have to hunt for the witches and have plenty of time to change before going into the witches' labyrinths.
Why doesn't anyone recognize them if all they change is their clothes? They are recognizable, but witches don't care about their secret identities.
How do they keep their secret lives from their parents? They don't. Most of them don't have parents, the other two just don't tell them anything, and for Madoka, her mother actually DOES figure out something is wrong and has to trust her daughter to handle it.
If they just want to be normal, why don't they just quit? They can't, they need Grief Seeds to survive.
The list goes on, but that's the basic idea. It's both.
What Kreimheld Gretchen (the witch of Madoka Kaname) does is consume the entire world in her barrier, her own personal "heaven". Isn't this what Devil-Homura does in the end of The Rebellion Movie , and does this count as Foreshadowing? I haven't seen the movie so I don't know the details.
Nah, I don't think outright repetition is Foreshadowing.
Could we get someone to fix the Kyubey face on the main page? It's sort of messed up, and I don't know how to correct that.
Am I the only one concerned about how, and the end of Rebellion, Homura's rewrite of the universe seems to parallel an extremely abusive relationship with Madoka? Assuming she's in control of the changes, she's the reason Madoka is now the transfer student, meaning Homura changed things to put Madoka in a situation isolated from her former friends, and outright threatening her into going along with it all. Never mind the fact that she's effectively imprisoned and Mind Raped her like you wouldn't believe.
That's not the complete truth. The point of the isolation and selective memory wipe was to prevent Madoka from ascending to godhood once again. Miki Sayaka would have immediately mentioned it so Homura changed the situation to talk with Sayaka to convince her into just living a normal life. Madoka's going to regain her god form and Homura will regain her demonic form, but Homura doesn't want that to happen until after the entire cast has lived long and happy lives as normal human beings; which was the entire point of her doing it. This way, she doesn't die, Madoka doesn't disappear into godhood with no one remembering her existence, and Kyubey is effectively neutralized. Madoka will remember everything and regain her powers, she and Homura will be in future conflict as eternal beings perhaps for all eternity, but Homura wanted Madoka back so that everyone in the cast could live happy lives for a brief moment in time before returning to the ascension and - in Madoka's case - godhood.
is it just me, or did anyone else have an Oh, Crap! moment after the end of Movie 3: rebellion? I mean, homura outsmarts kyuubey, steals part of Madoka's godhood, rewrites the universe, erases the memories of all the other magical girls and leaves kyuubey a withered and disheveled heap of fur at her feet after she basically drives him whatever might pass as a despair event horizon for Cthulhu. Could be a crowning moment of awesome, but in this troper's opinion, she easily outdoes Gasai Yuno and Sengoku Nadeko for the Queen of Yandere and Love Makes You Crazy.
I don't know if anyone's reading this, but I think we might need a franchise page for this series. Especially with all the new manga.
I have a question: Did the creator of this work ever explicitly say it was a tribute to Geothe's work or about the sexuality of teenage girls? The Analysis page makes arguments for these things, but if the creater didnt specify then these are just guesses about the subtext, which seems like WMG to me.
I'm confused regarding how this show is supposed to a reconstruction. Madoka sacrifices herself for a better reality, but when it comes down to it, she didn't solve anything. Magical girls being able to work together is at best a temporary solution since as far as the viewer knows, Kyubey will still leave when he reaches his quota and we'll back to where were in the main timeline, and the Bolivian Army Ending after the credits implies that the demons in the new timeline were too much for the magical girls and only Homura is left she'll disappear soon. How is this a reconstruction, it feels more like a Shoot the Shaggy Dog than anything else.
It doesn't seem to me at all that the demons (wraiths) in Madoka's new universe are "too much for the magical girls", and I don't think "only Homura is left" — from what I saw, only Sayaka really died (as per her 'magical meeting' with Madokami, when both sat and listened to Kyosuke play), while Mami, Kyoko and Homura all stayed alive, albeit (except for Homura) without any memory of who Madoka was. As I see it, all M Gs (except Sayaka) are alive and now fight according to the new rules, so that (as Mami Tomoe says) now their soul gems break automatically when they accumulate too much despair instead of becoming magical girls. Considering that Kyubey is alive and talks to Homura (when she tries to describe to him what this other earlier universe had been like), I imagine he is still around, trying to convince girls to become magical girls and fight wraiths, in order to collect the cubes that are now the source of energy — not so concentrated as exploding/transforming soul gems, but still worthwhile.
Shouldn't the spoiler warning come before the description of the series? With links to things like Deal with the Devil, Cosmic Horror Story, Neon Genesis Evangelion and so on, just the description itself spoils a lot.
Okay, throughout the wiki I've been seeing entries for this show saying that Madoka's wish did not make [much of] a difference, and that things are still as horrible as before. Are things still as bad as before? Should those entries be revised?
I say this because the general spirit of episode 12 seems to be against that notion, and having seen the anime, I can say that one thing that it's honest about is tone. When Mami died in episode 3, the music that was playing was not her theme; in fact, this is the same episode when [[Magia]] started being the ending theme. When Sayaka became a witch, the atmosphere was as dark as appropriate, with her leitmotif (which isn't exactly peppy) playing throughout. Now, I suppose one could make a case for the opening being out of place, but a look at its lyrics will reveal that it essentially describes Homura's plot, both before and after the end of the show.
I'm sorry for what may have been a tangent, but I ask again: should the entries saying that Madoka didn't make [much of] a difference be changed?
Yes, they should. Stuff like that belongs on the YMMV page.
Additionally, the show itself treats it as a big deal.
Just because the show treats something a certain way doesn't mean make it so. That's why we have the Esoteric Happy Ending trope, something the show says is an uplifting ending that really isn't, which is exactly the case here.
I'm cleaning the page up a bit. Removed a few things:
This would work better in an Analysis article on the title than on the main page, since it seems to generate a lot of discussion:
Come on, you know this isn't what Arc Number means:
In other words, Not An Example of Cessation of Existence:
Also cut this bit of Conversation In The Main Page from Artistic License – Physics:
Is there a reason why this section was deleted?
Several rather objective tropes are getting out of control, in both the Main page and the YMMV page (more so in the YMMV page, Double Standard and Die for Our Ship comes to mind). The thing is, a lot of entries are turning into discussions, resulting in natter that shouldn't really be taking place in the main pages. Someone should probably sort them out and remove a few thing.
Anyone think H.N. Elly/Kirsten may have been a Troll before she became a witch? I mean, trolls do covet the responses they cause, and Kirsten does have a covetous nature and she was implied to have been on the internet a lot. Does this have some plausibility?
More likely an Attention Whore. Someone who puts legitimate effort into their work and wants to be acknowleged for it. She was shown with a sillohete which implies an Idol Singer, not really trollish in her attempt.
I will be moving this page to Anime.Puella Magi Madoka Magica as per the Wick Namespace Migration project. Anyone who's willing to help change wicks to this page is welcome to help.
What I'm recommending is to move tropes related to the ending of the series to a separate page. The reason for this is that I think half of the page we have now for Madoka Magica actually is exclusive to the ending, and because the ending is a massive Genre Shift when compared to everything else in the series.
I'm not recommending an "Analysis of the ending" per se, like how it is for the MGS 2 Ending, but a full-blown Main page listing off its own tropes. If there's any luck, that page would later become the sequel to Madoka Magica.
I don't really think it's such a huge shift to warrant a separate page. Yes there's a twist, but time travel is hardly something new for fantasy. And the whole thing was foreshadowed throughout the series.
Unless by ending you mean the last part of the last episode, after Madoka rewrote reality?
Spoiler tags, please, and yes, the ending I'm referring to is the last part of the last episode, in which Madoka rewrote reality.
Did anyone read the Gen Urobuchi interview in Black Past: http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Shinjidai_no_Mixture_Magazine_BLACK_PAST.
quote from Madoka wikia: "In talking about relationships in his body of works, Urobuchi revealed his beliefs about same sex relationships, "whatever relationship that could exist between male and female it should also exist between couples of same sex." Aside from the difference in body parts, he did not see a male and female relationship as special or unique. He believes that the same kind of love is possible between same sex couples as well. Urobuchi stated he may even write about a love relationship between two men in the future."
Uno: Madoka is full of gay!
Urobuchi: So what?
Madoka has The Four Loves shown in it but everyone always thinks that the love shown in Madoka is just Eros (romantic).
Found this incredible link showing the difference in Homura's first day in the 5th timeline, and the first one. Not sure what this falls under, Book-Ends? Ironic Echo? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoXzzW232oQ
Looks more like Ironic Echo. I have a feeling someone mentioned it or something, even if they didn't cite/list the trope itself.
Do we have Word of God on that Carcaptor Sakura connection? Becuase I honestly see a stronger connection with Tokyo Mew Mew (a scientist alters five girls to preserve the planet/universe) or team Magical Girl Warrior shows in general. Cardcaptor Sakura has an entirely different dynamic, she's pretty much alone in catching out of control magic rather than an evil Monster of the Week. The only Cardcaptor Sakura and Madoka Magica connections I see are Kyubey vs. Cerebus and the witch cards (which aren't canonically a part of the show).
It's been noted that Madoka's costume is fairly similar to one of Sakura's. Also both shows start with a cryptic dream.
Also, while there are 5 magical girls they are not a "team". It's pretty rare to have more than one magical girl at a fight, aside from in-fighting, the maximum in the main time line is two. Each of the girls has a costume with a unique design (which are reminiscent of different magical girl shows). This gives Madoka its "meeting of the archtypes" vibe (kida like Umburo Eco's bit about Casablanca being a meeting of cliches). It's not a show about a team of five magical girls. It's about five magical girls learning together what a bad choice they made.
Madoka's costume = Card Captor Sakura
Sayaka's costume = Magical Knight Rayearth
Mami's costume = Pretty Cure (one of the later ones, as pointed out elsewhere).
Kyoko's costume is tricky. It's cut like Lyrical Nanoha, but has a gothic loli look rather than a sci-fi/duster look.
Homura's costume is even more "off" I've heard it described as "Fate Stay Night", and I'll go with that until someone points out a better match.
Point being that there's little reason CCS is the specific influence.
Other than the fact that CCS is THE "solo" magical girl show (as of the last 15+ years), it is THE benchmark of "ordinary" magical girldom. AND Madoka's obviously "inspired" by it in-universe (all her costume doodles). And again, PMMM is not a "team" story, it's a bunch of solo stories drawn together.
Sorry. Double post.
Cardcaptor Sakura? I can see the similarities (comparing Kyubey to Cerebus, the witch Cards, the shout outs in the opening) but overall I see more similarites to Tokyo Mew Mew (an scientific being alters five young girls so they can preserve the world) Is there Word of God on that one? Becuase Cardcaptor Sakura has an entriely different dynamic than the type of shows Madoka Magica is a Deconstruction of (solo magical girl fighting disasters formed by out of control cards versus a team of them fighting evil a weekly Monster of the Week)and it seems out of place.
Removed about Homura
Homura isn't Nagto Yuki... The reason she acts cool towards everyone is mainly because she only cares about Madoka. Mami is liable to go Axe-Crazy if exposed to the Awful Truth and Sayaka never trusted her regardless of which timeline they're in, so it's natural that Homura would be cold towards them. It also goes back to the first Madoka, who told Homura she should act cool to suit her name. Some of her coolness is evidently just a farce, as she also forces herself to act cool towards Madoka.
"Bored" was perhaps not quite the right term, but I think it's patently ridiculous to suggest that Homura isn't at least somewhat calloused to others in part because she's so very tired of seeing them die over and over and over; she was certainly friends with Mami in early timelines, at least, even if she wasn't as close to Mami as Madoka. Some kind of comment has to be made of this, I think, and it ties in to why she acts the way she does - she just can't bear getting close to the others because they'll inevitably die, and the despair over the fact that she really cannot save Madoka is what drives her within a hair's breadth of witchdom.
Episode 11 not withstanding, the fact that she does NOT accept that the people's deaths are inevitable is what allows her to keep on trying other methods of saving Madoka. Were this not the case, she would have witchified a long time ago. Sayaka seems to be screwed by fate, but the things that happen to Mami and Kyoko seems to very from timeline to timeline, and Homura still expresses emotions when they do.
In the end, you're probably right to some degree, but the main reason she is how she is is still predominantly Madoka. Desensitization due to experiencing the same over and over, might be something very minor, and doesn't deserve the amount of emphasis originally given.
Is there a hype backlash with some calling it the next Evangelion or something like that?
Why the Bullet Time is not listed?
/* Confused by "checked out" (though is is "locked") */
"This entry is checked out until ..." -> Crappy locking instead of proper merging => won't add "Homura" there.
Because it's not used. Bullet Time is supposed to be bullets slow down so they can be seen but are still moving, they'll usually leave a distortion trail so they can be dodged in a cool way (i.e The Matrix).
Homura instead stops time completely, while still cool, makes it impossible to do the cool stuff above.
(haven't noticed "Time Stands Still" although searched for "time")
So Joan of Arc was a Magic girl, which we all should know is an immature witch. Historically, Joan actually was burned at the stake after being falsely convicted of being a witch...
Any idea what trope this falls under?
Hilarious in Hindsight / "Funny Aneurysm" Moment?
"*** Technically, Goddess Madoka travels through time and space (every timeline) to Mercy Kill every Magical Girl the exact instant before they become a witch. She purifies them too; but it doesn't prevent their death."
Technically, that isn't mercy killing. Also the scene kind of indicates Madoka is not only absorbing the corruption into her own soul gem, but also takes the magic girls souls with her. hence the complete disappearance of their soul gem followed by their phsyical bodies.
If she was just removing their corruption, they wouldn't have died. It's not an insult, being a witch is a Fate Worse than Death, and she's possibly one of the friendliest shinigami out there; but yeah, she's killing/purifying/taking their souls before they become witches.
If that's the case then it's not a Mercy Kill because by purifying their soul gems, the Magical Girl is no longer facing their previously immenent Fate Worse than Death... What Madoka is doing is instead straight murder... Oh my God! The bitch!
... You're joking, right? The fact is, these girls are already dying; their soul gems are cracking. Living is no longer a choice: options are a) become a Witch or b) die and go to Magical Girl Valhalla. Take your pick...
Discussion on the forums has deemed "Magical Girl" over "Puella Magi" to be preferred, since . Please see the forum for the relevant discussions.
The argument that ended up on the Puella Magi Wiki as a result of this forum discussion:
"Puella Magi" is not intended to be magical girl; however, "Puella Magi Madoka Magica" does indeed mean "Magical Girl Madoka of the [male] Mage" ("magica" being the correct adjective for "magical"). Being a Latin student, I believe the entire title was supposed to be taken together, "magica" connected to "puella magi", so I really don't think "puella magi" should be cut off from the rest of the title like that. Do what you will with the thought, since I know how much hell it is to change an entire wiki to one term or the other, and at this point I believe it's too late to make any changes. But seeing as we've never seen any "Puella Magi" term without the "Magica" whenever it's used officially, I think one should reconsider the merits of that title. (Unless you want to call it "Puella Magi ________ Magica" every time, and that's just ridiculous.)"
Just some notes regarding my last edit.
-Homura-in-an-apocalyptic-world-at-the-end is debatable, as it's a theory (and should probably be in WMG); it's possible she's just in a barrier.]]
-What exactly the hell was going on when Madoka killed Kreimhild is really difficult to interpret, so I don't think wording should be conclusive on that issue.
Looks like the ending is a literally based off of Urobuchi's quote from fate zero...
Therefore, in order to write a perfect ending for a story you must possess the power to break the chain of cause and effect, invert black and white, and act in complete contradiction to the rules of the universe. Only a heavenly and chaste soul, a soul that resounds with genuine praise for humanity, can save the story.
Madoka received the power to break the vicious cycle, and altered the universe by her wish. She is the heavenly and chaste soul that Urobuchi was talking about.
Just wanting some verification:
"The director has outright said he is aiming for this while still maintaining some traditional Magical Girl elements."
Is there a source for this? Not to pick hairs, but I am actually looking for verification that the director was going for this, in his own words. It's for research!
Regarding The Four Loves and why I don't think it fits:
And, more to the point, at no point in the series is this concept ever brought up, nor is there any reason to believe that Urobuchi has even heard of it
Funny, someone mentioned Irisu Syndrome here. Considering the bait-and-switch nature of this show, shall we split split this page into Main entry and Darth Wiki entry? Just to emulate the dark revelation that everyone watching it will experience.
That sounds unnecessarily difficult for both editors and readers
Just removed this:
Saying you can "easily predict" what will happen in the show from the lyrics to Connect and Magia is far-fetched to say the least. The connection between lyrics and plot might seem obvious in hindsight, but at the time, anything you do get out of it would be too vague to have any real meaning, and has about the same chance of being right as any of the hundreds of theories that the fans came up with.
Does anyone mind if a change the picture caption? The characters page already list what each character is like, so I feel the picture caption for the main page for Puella Magi Madoka Magica should reflect the series as a whole. I suggest:
"Looks like a typical Magical Girl series, right? WRONG!"
People liked "Smile while you can..."
And here I thought we finally stopped at "Smile while you can..."
It was simple and good. Didn't trope links either.
Okay, I'm changing it back now. Because even Anti-Hero feels pretty inaccurate for Homura.
Sorry, I was the one who put the characters' description on the picture caption. It was just to show on their initial appearances.
Going through the page (and noting that every single time I visit, there's a new change), I'm noting there's a bit of repetitiveness and natter going on with some of the entries, especially in the spoilered bits. Admittedly, since this is one of those cult hits of the season things, this was likely to happen, but I'm gonna copy the source and see if I can't trim the fat a bit, since the page is quite liable to erupt once the finale airs.
Which is going to be some time from now because the show has been postponed indefinitely.
Not so fast. There's some conflicting info on this.
Well, you're both technically wrong. SHAFT intends for the last two episodes to be aired sometime in April. Not the same as an indefinite postponement, and no one has said anything else, so there's nothing to conflict with
And I honestly don't care if the natter is trimmed, though doing the work offline is liable to result in stomping over reasonable edits
If there's stomping to be had, I'll bring the trash cans.
In all seriousness, I only plan on trimming things so that the necessary stuff to explain the tropes used remain. Some of the stuff that's there is reasonable, but some isn't. It can be hashed out once it goes back up.
It's unclear if the 'episode synopsis' linked in the Les Yay entry were actually created by a staffer, which is why I removed it. And I'm not certain it actually matters even if they were
Can we sort out this Groundhog Day Loop thing that keeps coming up? In my opinion, Homura isn't trapped in one, because she can get out of it by DYING. There is absolutely no indication that she'll groundhog day if she dies, which means she isn't automatically going to win eventually if she keeps repeating.
I will go insane if it keeps showing up.
In a "Groundhog Day" Loop, the character has no control over the situation besides the whole figuring out what the trigger is in order to stop it. In this case, Homura is the trigger herself going back in time. She intentionally wishes to do this in order to save Madoka.
This makes it Set Right What Once Went Wrong. The reason why people seem confuse it with "Groundhog Day" Loop is because it happens whenever Madoka dies or becomes a witch. Well, yeah, of course it does. Because that's not exactly the goal Homura was trying to reach.
Then there's the end of the third and fourth timelines. Those should be enough of an indication that Homura is intentionally time traveling to the past. Her response to Madoka's wish to save her as well as the end episode monologue is also proof enough.
Basically, stop putting it in. The appropriate trope is Set Right, which we have. The only related trope that is acceptable is Groundhog Peggy Sue, which is most likely what everyone's looking for.
It's not clear at all that the travel back in time is entirely voluntary.
It is. Homura's conversation with Cubé near the end of Episode 10 wouldn't have happened if it weren't.
Just wondering, but should we put tropes that apply to the spin-off manga, Kazumi Magica, on this page as well, or start a separate page? It doesn't really tie-in too deeply with the original story, so I'm not sure.
Instead of having every other Troper change the image caption to their liking, how about we settle for an ambiguous, neutral one that doesn't need to reference other series? Something like "Things are not as they seem" or something like that.
I agree, since it's getting kind of annoying to come back everyday with the caption changing every time. "Too bad things simply are not as they seemed to be." is in the description, though, so we may want to go for something else.
That's it. Homura definitely reminds me of Archer now. Both broken and bitter about their inability to stop the tragedies, and always trying to grasp the chance to make things right.
This would make an epic fanfic.
Why are the pages suddenly omitting the 'u' of 'ou'? I don't believe any of the translations circulating do so
Probably because the cipher language, when translated, leaves out the "u" in things like "Kyoko".
Several considerations (this is also intended as a counterpoint to urutapu's recent edit reasons reverting ou to o):
1. With respect to the Cypher Language, we must remember that in the runes which appeared so far, "o" has never appeared with any diacritic, only "a" and "u" (See the per-episode links at the section "Translated Runes by Episode" on this page). For example, the German "Königin" ("queen") was written as "Konigin" in runes (without the umlaut on the o). See this thread and whereabouts. The runes for ö in the table there are most likely created by the fontmaker and put there for the purposes of completion, i.e. for "Königin".
And before anyone goes "Oh, 4chan, so unreliable", remember that these were the guys who deciphered the runes in the first place and put them in the Puella Magi Wiki.
So most likely, the one responsible for putting in the name at her ring was aiming for "Kyōko" (see point two below), but had to use "Kyoko" due to the lack of the rune for the ō character.
2. With regards to the romanization, the furigana of Ms. Sakura's name from the official site◊ gives "さくら きょうこ" (Sa+ku+ra Kyo+u+ko). "Kyōko" is a valid romanization, but "Kyoko" is, strictly, not (as it gives きょこ, not きょうこ).
3. In the light of Counterpoints 1 and 2 above, I submit that I do not need to answer urutapu's Point 3, and request that Ms. Sakura's first name be romanized as either "Kyouko" or "Kyōko".
Ok, was just coming in here to respond to uratapu's edit. Her name absolutely is not "Kyoko", as far as I know "Kyoko" isn't even a valid name in Japanese. Its either "Kyouko" or "Kyōko", and considering that Macrons are a royal pain in the ass, I vote for "Kyouko".
This is somewhat like trying to claim that Aaron and Erin are the same name.
And I was just coming by again to respond that Urutapu's point was entirely backwards. Romanizing 'ou' as 'o' is never correct, and not accepted under either Hepburn or Kunrei-shiki. That it's seen frequently does not make it less wrong
Actually there are rather more than 2 different romanization schemes. Any of the more "correct" ones is going to mark the name as a long vowel. There are at least 4 ways to indicate a long "o": overmark line (saves space), using a u (which copies how hiragana does it), Add an extra "o" (which is used in a common university textbook to avoid any confusion, but is almost never done outside a classroom), Use an "h" vice "u" (doesn't match Japanese practice, but often looks more natural).
Last of all there is standard English romanization, don't show the double vowels. This isn't that uncommon (90% of the time "Tokyo" shows up in print shorn of its double vowels). Heck, there are other "Kyoko"(s) on this website.
That said, the staff using the "basic" spelling of the character's name is not some sort of artistic choice. That's probably the spelling they saw it whatever reference/dictionary (actually most likely episode, see below) they used to translate for rune-writing. They weren't planning on altering the pronunciation.
Japanese people don't study Romanization schemes (unless they end up teaching Japanese), in my experience (15+ years of tutoring) they aren't even aware that there are different systems. Heck I always wrote "Kyoko" when I was writing about Maison, even if I pronounced the double vowel.
Short form, arguments about Romanization are silly, doing editing wars to keep one name in one style while others are in another is even sillier. The most likely place they got the English spelling they used is Episode 22 of Evangelion (a certain character's mother, or rather her tombstone). It really doesn't change anything (the pronunciation doesn't change for either spelling) Japanese has a lot of ways to write "Kyo(U)ko" (buckets of Kanji choices), but just one way to pronounce it.
Kyo(u)ko's name in Kanji is weird. As mentioned above, there are a number of combos of characters for this name ("ko" is almost always the Kanji for "child", as in lots of (usually) girls names). The combo they used was weird enough to confuse Japanese readers (would be something like having a girl named "Xndi", pronounced "Cindy"). But note it has no bearing in the story (Sakura doesn't hand out cards and she's not given to spraying graffiti, so the other characters don't know how she spells it). By working with the weird Kanji, they managed to work "peach" into her given name to go with "Cherry Blossom" in her family name. Too bad they didn't go all the way and call her "Sakuranbo" (The cherry fruit, not the flower). "Ranbo" is Japanese for "violence" and is pronounced just like a certain movie franchise/character (and yes, they worked that into the Japanese ads for those movies). I'm amazed no one's called her "Cherry Bomb" yet.
While all that is true, there are distinct benefits to choosing a romanization scheme that A) Makes sense, and B) is consistent. Danbooru uses a modified Hepburn system that is based around ease of going from Hiragana to Roman letters. The fact that the Japanese are ludicrously inconsistent on how the romanize things is utterly irrelevant.
I wouldn't say "utterly".. What we have is a collision between the "Danbooru at all costs" (which does at least show extended vowels, personally I prefer overlines) group, and one editor who thinks that the use of the "default" romanization in an easter-egg was a conscious and important choice (very doubtful). So it's "ah" versus "oh" all over again, I love fandom.
Danbooru isn't really important here, they just use pretty much the romanization scheme as the rest of the western anime fandom. Which is what my point was: I've seen exactly one person that uses the spelling 'Kyoko', and I'd think it'd make more sense to have the page reflect what people actually use
"Pink Girly Girl And Blue Tomboy: Madoka Kaname and Sayaka Miki."
How the hell is Sayaka a tomboy?
Sayaka has the rougher personality of the two (I remember her threatening to beat someone up at least once), and her Magical Girl costume is the least girliest. She's not butch, but she's definitely somewhere within the realm of tomboy.
So when does the Faust parallel end?
I think around the part when Kyubei reveals that he was from space.
so, I saw the Trivia page mentioning that Aoi Yuki and Emiri Katou broke down or something.. do we have a source for it?
Anyone know why Homura is called Homerun-chan? I know they say she "hit a homerun", but I'm having trouble figuring out where.
It was in an /a/ drawthread. Somebody said "draw Homura playing baseball" (or something like that), and the artist decided to caption the picture "Homerun-chan". That's all there is to it.
Thank you very much!
Technically someone made a weird mistake of calling her Homerun-chan, then it sparked a demand by someone.
It got fulfilled, and so was the birth of Homerun-chan.
What I said was correct. What you're claiming is apparently what 2ch misunderstood the origin of "Homerun-chan" to be (i.e. "Homerun" was a typo or something that caught on) (◊).
Dunno if this is the right place for this, but I have been looking at past and present episodes again a couple of times, and there are a couple of things that bug me about some scenes. Hopefully, sharing them to you all might help with the speculation.
-In the opening credits, we see that Madoka transforming into her magical girl self thanks to the help of a spirit version of her. But all the other magical girls in the series so far have normal magical girl transformations. Could this be foreshadowing for why Madoka is so powerful, or her wish? Or could it even be the visual representation of the soul stored in the Soul Jar coming out to help a magical girl transform? If so, why is spirit!Madoka's hair longer?
-In the Ending credits, after the scene where her clothes get seemingly ripped off, it looks like Madoka has transformed into her magical girl self...only it seems to me that her hairstyle is different than the official artwork for her magical girl self. Not only that, but her skirt doesn't seem as 'big'/'puffy' as that of the artwork. Could it be that her real magical girl transformation may be different from that of the artwork? Or maybe there is another character yet to come...?
-This may well enter in Epilectic Trees territory, as it's just a feeling, but I found that there is something slightly different between prologue!Homura and real!Homura ... maybe something to do with her facial expression, or the hair, or something. Could it be that she has a twin sister? In support of that, I noticed that, in the prologue, when Homura falls, her shield is on her right hand, rather than her left...
1. Oh really? I seem to have missed that part of the speculation. What have they come up with for that scene?
2: Ok, so maybe the original designs don't match the in-show ones. But we do get to see the in-show version of Madoka's magical girl outfit in the opening credits, and my point about the skirt being less 'puffy' in the ED compared to the OP still stands. Then again, as you said, the ED does have a weird style...
3: Perhaps the feeling that she is different may be due to the fact that she seems to panic when she realizes that Madoka is there (something I read off another theory), which does seem kind of OOC for Homura. Then again, we have never really seen her in a fair fight with a witch up to this point (she did seem like she had already somewhat planned the fight with Charlotte, or knew how to defeat her beforehand), so we don't know how she reacts against an opponent that can actually strike back at her.
Another point I have noticed in the prologue is that she is still concious when she falls, but the witch seemingly doesn't attack her, and she doesn't teleport out. Has she somehow ran out of energy by that point?
Hey guys, I just did a quick search on the etymology of Puella:
From puellus (“a little boy”), contracted from puerulus (“a little boy, a little slave”) the diminutive of puer (“boy”).
The word can be used to mean a little girl, but also it can mean a servant or slave. Something tells me this was not accidental...
Additionally, some speculation about the stylization of the Kanji in the title for 'Mahou Shoujo' suggests an intentional re-interpretation regarding Kanji substitution. From the wiki:
That translation is certainly interesting especially when you take into account that after 6 episode Madoka hasn't become a magical girl yet.
I've tried my best to traslate the last scene in Ep6 as close as the original context as possible. It may not be grammatically correct but I hope you can get the Tropes. The script of this scene was such a genius, it is cramped with so much information and tropes that my words fail.
If you didn't watch it don't read ahead. Enjoy:
(Madoka throws the Soul Gem out of the bridge, it dropped on top of a speeding truck. Homura is horrified watching this as she teleport out of the scene as soon as she can)
Sayaka: Madoka, what you have done!
Madoka: But if I don't do this... Huh? (interrupted by Sayaka falling on her) Sayaka-chan?
Kyubey (jumps on the fence making a funny sound): That was very bad, Madoka.
Kyubey (says calmly while swinging its tail): Even on this world, something like throwing your friend down there, that's crazy.
Madoka (a bit shocked and confused): What? What is it? (notice this is identical to what Sayaka says at the end)
(Kyouko runs towards them, grabs Sayaka's neck)
Kyouko (makes a noise lifting Sayaka): ...
Madoka: Stop it!
Kyouko (shocked): What is this, hey? Isn't this guy dead already?
Madoka (seriously shocked): ...
(Homura is desperately chasing the truck where the Soul Gem dropped)
(Sayaka's body now lays on the floor lifeless)
Madoka (begins to lose it): Sayaka-chan? Hey? Sayaka-chan! Hey! Wake up! Hey! Hey, something? What happened? Hey? (totally lose it) Don't do this... Sayaka-chaaaaan!
Kyouko: What made and how did she gone? (turns around and stare at Kyubey) Hey!
Kyubey: Because as magical girls, your control of your own body are limited to a hundred meter radius maximum.
Kyouko: A hundred meter? What is that? (turns angry) What does it mean?
Kyubey: Normally, it shouldn't even leave your skin as you wander around. Such an accident isn't common though.
Madoka (on the bink of breakdown): What are you saying, Kyubey? Help! Don't just let Sayaka-chan die!
Kyubey (sighs once, but still keeps its cool): Madoka, that is not Sayaka. It is only an empty shell.
Kyubey: Isn't Sayaka just been thrown and discarded by you already?
Kyouko (tries to reach her Soul Gem with her hand): What did you say?
(Homura reachs the Truck and retrieves the soul gem carefully while Kyubey explains)
Kyubey: If it remained as fragile body like a normal human, I can't just ask you to fight witchs that way really. As you Magical Girls, for what is refer to be the original body, is only an external hardware. (Homura concentrates to watch the soul gem, not taking any chances of mistake) As all of you, the true body which is the soul, were given a form that is able to manipulate mana on its own, compact and safe.
(Scene change back when Kyubey looks up)
Kyubey: Once a contract of a Magical Girl is accepted, my first duty is to extract your soul and turn it into a soul gem.
Kyouko: You bastard what you have done... (loses her cool) Don't be kidding me! (picks up Kyubey) So, didn't that implied that we had been turned zombie-like?
Kyubey: Rather convenient is it?
Madoka (barely makes a sound): Huh?
Kyubey: Even if the heart being destroyed, losing all blood, if that body is fixed by mana, it can return into action quickly. As long as the Soul Gem remain intact, all of you are invincible. Compared to a human body full of weak spots, this being much better fit for combat isn't it?
Madoka: Awful... that's too much... (turns extremely upset and bursts in tears)
Kyubey: You all are always like this. Whenever I truthfully tell this fact, it's sure that your reactions are all the same. I don't get it. Why do humans care so much where their souls are?
Kyouko (makes a sound of disgust): ...
(Sayaka's soul gem is returned to her hand by Homura, all becomes voiceless when they notice Homura just come back, who is recovering from her run)
(Sayaka's body come back to life, this surprised both Kyouko and Madoka)
Kyouko, Madoka: ...
(Sayaka crawls up sitting on the floor and look around, followed by a long silent filled with only background noise of passing vehicles)
Sayaka (confused): What? What is it?
I really fail to see how this is notably different than the translation Mahou Shoujo-Yesy used, other than not reading as nicely.
I've seen the version by Nutbladder and I can't see any major differences in their translation either. Well, they've used the more aggressive phrasing "rip out your soul" instead of "extract your soul", but the overall meaning is more or less the same.
But I've heard that the gg guys tend do improvise a lot.
They do, but not in this particular case.
So, should we restore the line he deleted? I really don't see how this justifies removing it, just because he'd translate it as the very clunky "You made us zombie-like" instead of "you turned us into zombies!"
...Still a direct reference to zombies. Don't see how that changes anything
YMMV on this, though. There is a big difference as Kyouko was asking a question, which Kyubey yet again dodged the answer by only stating the good side of it. It had happened a few times before this incident.
Madoka: Why magical girls would battle eachother?
Kyubey: Both of them are not willing to take a step back. (This is not answering her question. Madoka should be asking why magical girls are allowed to attack eachother in the first place, with no rules to prevent or control it. Kyubey even took advantage of this and tried to convince Madoka to make a contract.)
Sayaka: What is so bad about this (her soul gem) becomes dimmer?
Kyubey: Kyouko is very strong isn't it? (Again not answering the critical question, by stating the benefit of collecting a lot of grief seeds instead of explaining the consequence of a soul gem going dark.)
Now, Kyouko asked a question if they are transformed into zombie-like beings. Once again Kyubey answered by only explaining the pros instead of the cons of a zombie-like body. That could mean that there were actually cons that will horrify the Magical Girls even worse than they already are.
Clearly, Kyubey was actively dodging all the answers that would upset the magical girls, that it will not speak of them unless they demand the answer.
Kyubey's active dodging is because of his obvious (if as yet unstated) nature as a devil. The down side is never mentioned until you close a deal, and even then, it's rarely brought up until the petitioner reaches damnation. However, that doesn't have that much to do with the question at hand.
There's been a couple of translations of the line floating around, but ultimately, all the lines in question mention that all of the contracted girls are, essentially, undead. Whether they are zombies or liches is up for the technicality debate, but that's a whole 'nother thread.
Yeah, I'm not really seeing your point here non, your translations are more "literal", but they aren't any more correct. Yesy and Nutbladder both captured these distinctions fairly clearly.
I still don't see why you deleted that entry.
Is there a reason every single mention of the Soul Gem on the page is getting linked to the Soul Jar page? Seems kind of overkill and redundant.
about the ending part in "bait and switch credits", i didnt see any of that? i mean, kyubes ear? where? it didnt change at all from what ive seen.
Yeah, I agree. Though, the more I look at it, the more it looks like a girl with long hair or something...
I looked at the mask part of the ED frame-by-frame and I didn't see anything that looked definitively like it was part of Kyubey anywhere in the art. I think that may be more of a case of vague artisticness being misinterpreted due to influence than anything.
A girl with long hair...? Didn't the red haired girl and homura say they were going to meet someone at wangra-something night in a few weeks? Huh.
Walpurgis Night. April 30. Known in Germany as a witches' sabbath. This can mean nothing good.
It's probably what was going on in the dream sequence from episode 1.
All the X Meets Y bits to the laconic page? Do we do that now?
I might have misunderstood what that page was for from how I've seen it used for other series. Sorry. Is there somewhere else they should go? They were cluttering up the main page and only getting worse.
From what I can tell, the Laconic page is about a single quick blurb. If X Meets Y were to be moved anywhere, I supposed it'd be YMMV, but it doesn't seem to be a mandated move. I honestly feel like it should go on the X Meets Y trope article. I kinda...think I'll just do that.
The laconic page is for describing a work or trope in as few words as possible. X meets Y is often a very good way to do this, so you frequently see these statements there.
It is common practice to move the examples any trope to an extra subpage when the number of examples become overwhelmingly long and just leave a reference to the subpage instead of the examples on the main page.
uhh.... since when did Madoka become The Scrappy?
Many people want her to do what pretty much any other magical girl would and save the world by being a Mary Sue-esque character instead of a scared little girl who's in WAY over her head and knows it.
A lot of it also has to do with the consequences of her actions at the end of Episode 6. Granted, no one but Kyuubey knew the consequences. All in all, it's all about wanting Madoka to man up, despite the show being dedicated to demonstrating how horrific the idea of Magical Girls can truly be to the normal.
wow... these guys must have been Completely Missing the Point...
hell, thanks to ep 6 I don't even want Madoka to even consider becoming a Magical Girl...
Kyuubey said that he put the soul in a form that makes it more efficient to use magic, more efficient to fight witches from. This implies that it's possible to use magic without a soul gem, but it won't be as powerful.
So, if she's at all rational, Madoka isn't going to make a contract with Kyuubey with this knowledge.
However, that Madoka is going to Heroic BSoD at some point is obvious (with all the Break the Cutie it's unavoidable). I think she's going to follow that up with a Heroic RRoD... though, without a soul gem to facilitate dumping The Corruption...
Seriously? She's 13-14 years old. She only just saw Mami get her head bitten off, and she's constantly being warned by Homura to not make a contract becuase bad things will happen. Bad things that are now happening to poor Sayaka. And let's not forget about how magical girls have their souls ripped out and placed in a small gem like object, essentially making them liches. Yeah, let's hate the young traumatized girl for not making a contract with a Faustian little animal.
Some fans might also view her as a Damsel Scrappy since despite being the main character, she spends half the series needing somebody else to rescue her and the other characters were apart from the finale, arguably more important to the story than her.
Am I only one, who thinks that Gertrude (witch from second episode) looks little bit like Chtchulu?
These observations from /a/, as to where we go from here:
"Urobuchi Gen doesn't do this shit because he gets a kick out of it or because he likes seeing us squirm. As a writer, he's just always been legitimately interested in these sorts of conflicts and issues that people face through tragedy and suffering. He's a genuine guy."
"urobuchi is also a very western-style writer in that his stories are heavily grounded in character motivations, whereas most famous japanese novelists (even english-fluent writers like haruki murakami) write about abstracts and existentialist crap, and the characters are more like bystanders"
"I don't think the man is CAPABLE of writing a happy ending. I think that here he'd be aiming for bittersweet at best. Lots of people dead, lots of psychological trauma endured, but a decisive victory against the forces of chaos and destruction."
I always consider 4chan a questionable source at best.
It is mostly accurate, as near as I can tell. But it's pretty obvious that this story is about how characters react to horrible situations even without looking at the writer's past work, so the quotes don't tell us anything of use
They might tell us that if this Gen's attempts at an uplifting ending gives us a Bolvian Army Ending where most of the cast is implied to be dead and our surviving character will likely die and the world will be left helpless against hordes of demons, that even when he tries to make an uplifting ending he can only give us an Esoteric Happy Ending.
STRIKE HALF THE WMG PAGE, MAMI JUST DIED.
I bet she'll be back from the dead next episode, so wait a bit before you do.
Yeah, but this is the kind of show where they could easily put Came Back Wrong into effect. They don't generally use that trope on magical-girl shows, which is exactly why I suspect that they will use it here. Worst case scenario, she comes back as a witch. Better case, she comes back whole — but with memories of her death, which has a terrible effect on her mind; I don't think I've ever seen a magical girl with PTSD before.
By just watching the OP. The 3 appear to be together as Magical girls. Everyone is happy. Guess what is going to be Madoka's wish.
Maybe it's just me, but episode 3 felt... cheap. There's a phrase for that. It's called bad writing. And it really ruins my ability to watch this anime and it puts a fairly sizable stain on the season's quality. So unless there are plans to bring them back for real, I don't see myself continuing with this series for much longer. It's disappointing, really. :/
I have no idea why you consider that bad writing, but if you don't like that sort of thing, this likely isn't the series for you anyway
We're continuously told of the occupational hazards of magical girldom, and when one dies you call it bad writing? How would reviving her be better storytelling?
I call it bad story-telling because the way in which she dies doesn't match up to the way she's portrayed up to that point. We're shown that she's an experienced magical girl with good reactions, agility and power. But now, only now, that she needs to die does she suddenly get slow and act all surprised when one of her attacks doesn't work out. It also doesn't work well when you consider that she's as powerful as the other magical girl that doesn't agree with their way of doing things, and yet when she fails quite spectacularly to kill this witch, what happens? Oh the other girl does it instantly.
You don't build up a strong, experienced character and then have their death scene looking like they're complete amateurs. It's bad writing, plain and simple.
And I don't have a problem with character death. It's necessary at times, but regardless of how a character dies (whether it be quietly, out with a bang, or gruesome and graphic), the one thing their death should never feel like, is cheap. Or rather, when a character dies, you should get angry at the villain or thing responsible for their death. Not the writer. And that was the case this time for me. I got mad at the writer, not the monster.
But perhaps you're right. Maybe this simply isn't the series for me. Or rather, perhaps I simply shouldn't bother with any series that has Urobuchi Gen's name attached to it.
While I can see where you're coming from, it's also pretty evident in the episode that what got the character killed is that she dropped her guard. The conversation earlier in the episode made her happy and because of it, she went into the fight feeling very confident; she voiceovers about how light and strong she feels after the fight begins.
She was already depicted as very confident in her battles, as opposed to the warier approach taken by the other magical girl. As a strong and experienced magical girl, if she hadn't gotten overconfident and had paid more attention to the witch instead of assuming that she'd killed it, she probably wouldn't have been taken by surprise and killed, but she made a mistake because her mind wasn't on the fight.
I kind of saw it coming as soon as she started her voiceover - it felt like a classic Hope Spot, and it was.
I agree with the person above, it was painfully obvious that Mami was going to suffer or die. It's kinda like the moment where the hard-boiled veteran becomes a bit too soft at the wrong time.
Mami fell victim to The Worf Effect. A strong character was sacrificed to show how serious the situation is, in this case not just the current situation but the whole show. I don't see how this is bad writing. Maybe Drakedragon was just a big Mami fan and doesn't like that she died so early? I don't want to call him Fan Dumb, but... no I would definitely call this Fan Dumb.
Except it wasn't. Worf Effect only happens if it was a series of events, aka jobbing, not an unique event. Besides Mami's skill level doesn't mean a thing if she was distracted by her feel-good feelings at the time. And according to episode 6, with that conversation with Kyubey and Sayaka, [spoiler: Mami was possibly fighting without all of her Soul Gem completely purified, which makes her magic weaker and considering that she used part of it to trap Homura too...].
Plus Charlotte having insane speed, it would be a hard fight for Mami anyway. Homura easily won that fight because of her side step/teleport ability to dodge Charlotte's 'chomps'.
However late that is, I would still like to say that I don't feel Mami's death was "cheap" at all. It was in character (the 'I am suddenly feeling so happy I am now distracted' correlates well with what we already knew: that she was lonely, having being the only survivor of her family's accident, so that having someone on her side was really a big deal to her). It certainly served a purpose (to show that all that talk about danger was real), but that doesn't cheapen a death. To me, personally, seeing her die, even though I was expecting it, had all the oomph of a punch to the heart. Madoka's and Sayaka's lacrimose reaction also felt quite appropriate.
To me, this was an example of excellent execution of the plot: what needed to happen, happened, and had the desired effect. Plus the details — the 'cuteness' of Charlotte as a which, the 'cute' aspects of her candy-based labyrinth — simply make the blow hit worse; and the music, both in the scene, and in the end credits (first appearance of Kalafina's Magia) were also all horribly appropriate.
Of interest, but I didn't know whether there was a trope that fit it.
In episode 2, Madoka sketches possible designs for her Puella Magi outfit. The drawings we're shown were actually done by Aoi Yuki, the character's voice actress.
The drawings also give me a serious Irisu Syndrome vibe. As does some of the music (for example, when Mimi is watching the two on the roof).
So is anyone else kind of getting a "potential Sailor Nothing" vibe from this show, or is it just me?
It's mot just you.
It's Like Sailor Nothing before the first chapter. Kind of like a Prequel.
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How well does it match the trope?