[004]
Nohbody
Current Version
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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Nowhere in the entirety of Watch (which I just re-read, to refresh my memory) was it even implied that \
to:
Nowhere in the entirety of Watch (which I just re-read, to refresh my memory) was it even implied that \\\"the whole murderous racist thing was just a VocalMinority\\\". Your notions of the only reasons one joined the SS are also somewhat incomplete. Deserved or not the SS had a reputation as being [[Film/MenInBlack the best of the best of the best]], and unlike the regular army not being of the aristocracy wasn\\\'t a roadblock to reasonably fast promotion. That would especially make it interesting to a non-aristocrat who doesn\\\'t want to be stuck mucking out toilets until he\\\'s an old man. And that\\\'s not even getting into the conscriptions into the Waffen-SS starting around 1943.
It seems you think that the indoctrination was 100% effective (or close enough to be of no difference), when the historical case is rather less sanguine about its effectiveness. Sure, there was a lot of indoctrination into the racial superiority stuff, and the majority of members \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' buy it wholeheartedly, but unless you want little more than meatpuppets (which tend to do poorly as elite soldiers) there\\\'s only so far you can go to make it stick. Hell, the defecting soviet frigate that inspired TheHuntForRedOctober had the mutiny lead by the fig\\\'s PoliticalOfficer, who was supposed to be the very model of Party Purity, and tasked with \\\'\\\'stopping\\\'\\\' mutinies, not starting them. Even with the extra indoctrination as the representative of \\\"the sword and shield of the party\\\", he still tried to defect, which doesn\\\'t speak too well of the effectiveness of indoctrination.
As for Muehlenkampf\\\'s views, they weren\\\'t really covered much at all beyond getting the units formed up. Having joined the Waffen-SS after service in the regular army, he wasn\\\'t subject to all of the indoctrination of someone who joined the SS as their first military experience. Yes, the SS were political soldiers, but the \\\"soldier\\\" part wasn\\\'t just window dressing, and although separate from the regular army were under the command of the OKW.
As for UnfortunateImplications, the trope page says it\\\'s for \\\'\\\'unintended\\\'\\\' (emphasis in original) implications, and the afterward for Watch says that Kratman and Ringo did it intentionally.
\\\'\\\'\\\"But why the bloody damned SS?\\\" the sensitive reader asks. Put simply, because they would be there in John\\\'s universe. Deal. \\\"But what about Malmedy?\\\" Go do a Google search: \\\"biscari sicily peiper.\\\" Let ye among you. \\\"But the concentration camps? Babi Yar? The holocaust?\\\" To which we would answer, \\\"Horrible things and the men responsible should have all been hanged. But we fail to see why those things would keep desperately needed soldiers out of action, whatever larger organization they belonged to and whatever symbols they wore.\\\"\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
There is another reason, too. Dear reader, we wanted to shock the hell out of you.\\\'\\\'
[edit]
It occurred to me that I only tangentially brushed against the main complaint, that the series is a Nazi apologia.
At no time, outside of the obvious asshole characters, is the SS as a whole portrayed as being some great shining organization free of sin. Many of the characters acknowledge that there\\\'s a reason they have a bad rep, and the reformed SS is explicitly said to not be doing the whole \\\"Nazi political army\\\" thing of its ancestor organization. Hell, if not facing utter annihilation of Europe with many of the regular forces off-world it\\\'s pretty obvious that the SS wouldn\\\'t be revived. Also, Mike Jr\\\'s question in \\\'\\\'Eye of the Storm\\\'\\\', quoted by you way back in the beginning of this whole issue, was clearly in the context of the current organization, decades after anyone who wasn\\\'t a rejuv would have long forgotten about Hitler\\\'s SS. O\\\'Neal certainly wasn\\\'t ignorant of history, so he\\\'s obviously not talking about the original, disbanded organization.
None of that sounds like \\\"Nazis fuck yeah!\\\" to me, even without following the respective authors\\\' other writings.
It seems you think that the indoctrination was 100% effective (or close enough to be of no difference), when the historical case is rather less sanguine about its effectiveness. Sure, there was a lot of indoctrination into the racial superiority stuff, and the majority of members \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' buy it wholeheartedly, but unless you want little more than meatpuppets (which tend to do poorly as elite soldiers) there\\\'s only so far you can go to make it stick. Hell, the defecting soviet frigate that inspired TheHuntForRedOctober had the mutiny lead by the fig\\\'s PoliticalOfficer, who was supposed to be the very model of Party Purity, and tasked with \\\'\\\'stopping\\\'\\\' mutinies, not starting them. Even with the extra indoctrination as the representative of \\\"the sword and shield of the party\\\", he still tried to defect, which doesn\\\'t speak too well of the effectiveness of indoctrination.
As for Muehlenkampf\\\'s views, they weren\\\'t really covered much at all beyond getting the units formed up. Having joined the Waffen-SS after service in the regular army, he wasn\\\'t subject to all of the indoctrination of someone who joined the SS as their first military experience. Yes, the SS were political soldiers, but the \\\"soldier\\\" part wasn\\\'t just window dressing, and although separate from the regular army were under the command of the OKW.
As for UnfortunateImplications, the trope page says it\\\'s for \\\'\\\'unintended\\\'\\\' (emphasis in original) implications, and the afterward for Watch says that Kratman and Ringo did it intentionally.
\\\'\\\'\\\"But why the bloody damned SS?\\\" the sensitive reader asks. Put simply, because they would be there in John\\\'s universe. Deal. \\\"But what about Malmedy?\\\" Go do a Google search: \\\"biscari sicily peiper.\\\" Let ye among you. \\\"But the concentration camps? Babi Yar? The holocaust?\\\" To which we would answer, \\\"Horrible things and the men responsible should have all been hanged. But we fail to see why those things would keep desperately needed soldiers out of action, whatever larger organization they belonged to and whatever symbols they wore.\\\"\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
There is another reason, too. Dear reader, we wanted to shock the hell out of you.\\\'\\\'
[edit]
It occurred to me that I only tangentially brushed against the main complaint, that the series is a Nazi apologia.
At no time, outside of the obvious asshole characters, is the SS as a whole portrayed as being some great shining organization free of sin. Many of the characters acknowledge that there\\\'s a reason they have a bad rep, and the reformed SS is explicitly said to not be doing the whole \\\"Nazi political army\\\" thing of its ancestor organization. Hell, if not facing utter annihilation of Europe with many of the regular forces off-world it\\\'s pretty obvious that the SS wouldn\\\'t be revived. Also, Mike Jr\\\'s question in \\\'\\\'Eye of the Storm\\\'\\\', quoted by you way back in the beginning of this whole issue, was clearly in the context of the current organization, decades after anyone who wasn\\\'t a rejuv would have long forgotten about Hitler\\\'s SS. O\\\'Neal certainly wasn\\\'t ignorant of history, so he\\\'s obviously not talking about the original, disbanded organization.
None of that sounds like \\\"Nazis fuck yeah!\\\" to me, even without following the respective authors\\\' other writings.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
Nowhere in the entirety of Watch (which I just re-read, to refresh my memory) was it even implied that \
to:
Nowhere in the entirety of Watch (which I just re-read, to refresh my memory) was it even implied that \\\"the whole murderous racist thing was just a VocalMinority\\\". Your notions of the only reasons one joined the SS are also somewhat incomplete. Deserved or not the SS had a reputation as being [[Film/MenInBlack the best of the best of the best]], and unlike the regular army not being of the aristocracy wasn\\\'t a roadblock to reasonably fast promotion. That would especially make it interesting to a non-aristocrat who doesn\\\'t want to be stuck mucking out toilets until he\\\'s an old man. And that\\\'s not even getting into the conscriptions into the Waffen-SS starting around 1943.
It seems you think that the indoctrination was 100% effective (or close enough to be of no difference), when the historical case is rather less sanguine about its effectiveness. Sure, there was a lot of indoctrination into the racial superiority stuff, and the majority of members \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' buy it wholeheartedly, but unless you want little more than meatpuppets (which tend to do poorly as elite soldiers) there\\\'s only so far you can go to make it stick. Hell, the defecting soviet frigate that inspired TheHuntForRedOctober had the mutiny lead by the fig\\\'s PoliticalOfficer, who was supposed to be the very model of Party Purity, and tasked with \\\'\\\'stopping\\\'\\\' mutinies, not starting them. Even with the extra indoctrination as the representative of \\\"the sword and shield of the party\\\", he still tried to defect, which doesn\\\'t speak too well of the effectiveness of indoctrination.
As for Muehlenkampf\\\'s views, they weren\\\'t really covered much at all beyond getting the units formed up. Having joined the Waffen-SS after service in the regular army, he wasn\\\'t subject to all of the indoctrination of someone who joined the SS as their first military experience. Yes, the SS were political soldiers, but the \\\"soldier\\\" part wasn\\\'t just window dressing, and although separate from the regular army were under the command of the OKW.
As for UnfortunateImplications, the trope page says it\\\'s for \\\'\\\'unintended\\\'\\\' (emphasis in original) implications, and the afterward for Watch says that Kratman and Ringo did it intentionally.
\\\'\\\'\\\"But why the bloody damned SS?\\\" the sensitive reader asks. Put simply, because they would be there in John\\\'s universe. Deal. \\\"But what about Malmedy?\\\" Go do a Google search: \\\"biscari sicily peiper.\\\" Let ye among you. \\\"But the concentration camps? Babi Yar? The holocaust?\\\" To which we would answer, \\\"Horrible things and the men responsible should have all been hanged. But we fail to see why those things would keep desperately needed soldiers out of action, whatever larger organization they belonged to and whatever symbols they wore.\\\"\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
There is another reason, too. Dear reader, we wanted to shock the hell out of you.\\\'\\\'
[edit]
It occurred to me that I only tangentially brushed against the main complaint, that the series is a Nazi apologia.
At no time, outside of the obvious asshole characters, is the SS as a whole portrayed as being some great shining organization free of sin. Many of the characters acknowledge that there\\\'s a reason they have a bad rep, and the reformed SS is explicitly said to not be doing the whole \\\"Nazi political army\\\" thing of its ancestor organization. Hell, if not facing utter annihilation of Europe with many of the regular forces off-world it\\\'s pretty obvious that the SS wouldn\\\'t be revived.
None of that sounds like \\\"Nazis fuck yeah!\\\" to me, even without following the respective authors\\\' other writings.
It seems you think that the indoctrination was 100% effective (or close enough to be of no difference), when the historical case is rather less sanguine about its effectiveness. Sure, there was a lot of indoctrination into the racial superiority stuff, and the majority of members \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' buy it wholeheartedly, but unless you want little more than meatpuppets (which tend to do poorly as elite soldiers) there\\\'s only so far you can go to make it stick. Hell, the defecting soviet frigate that inspired TheHuntForRedOctober had the mutiny lead by the fig\\\'s PoliticalOfficer, who was supposed to be the very model of Party Purity, and tasked with \\\'\\\'stopping\\\'\\\' mutinies, not starting them. Even with the extra indoctrination as the representative of \\\"the sword and shield of the party\\\", he still tried to defect, which doesn\\\'t speak too well of the effectiveness of indoctrination.
As for Muehlenkampf\\\'s views, they weren\\\'t really covered much at all beyond getting the units formed up. Having joined the Waffen-SS after service in the regular army, he wasn\\\'t subject to all of the indoctrination of someone who joined the SS as their first military experience. Yes, the SS were political soldiers, but the \\\"soldier\\\" part wasn\\\'t just window dressing, and although separate from the regular army were under the command of the OKW.
As for UnfortunateImplications, the trope page says it\\\'s for \\\'\\\'unintended\\\'\\\' (emphasis in original) implications, and the afterward for Watch says that Kratman and Ringo did it intentionally.
\\\'\\\'\\\"But why the bloody damned SS?\\\" the sensitive reader asks. Put simply, because they would be there in John\\\'s universe. Deal. \\\"But what about Malmedy?\\\" Go do a Google search: \\\"biscari sicily peiper.\\\" Let ye among you. \\\"But the concentration camps? Babi Yar? The holocaust?\\\" To which we would answer, \\\"Horrible things and the men responsible should have all been hanged. But we fail to see why those things would keep desperately needed soldiers out of action, whatever larger organization they belonged to and whatever symbols they wore.\\\"\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
There is another reason, too. Dear reader, we wanted to shock the hell out of you.\\\'\\\'
[edit]
It occurred to me that I only tangentially brushed against the main complaint, that the series is a Nazi apologia.
At no time, outside of the obvious asshole characters, is the SS as a whole portrayed as being some great shining organization free of sin. Many of the characters acknowledge that there\\\'s a reason they have a bad rep, and the reformed SS is explicitly said to not be doing the whole \\\"Nazi political army\\\" thing of its ancestor organization. Hell, if not facing utter annihilation of Europe with many of the regular forces off-world it\\\'s pretty obvious that the SS wouldn\\\'t be revived.
None of that sounds like \\\"Nazis fuck yeah!\\\" to me, even without following the respective authors\\\' other writings.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
Nowhere in the entirety of Watch (which I just re-read, to refresh my memory) was it even implied that \
to:
Nowhere in the entirety of Watch (which I just re-read, to refresh my memory) was it even implied that \\\"the whole murderous racist thing was just a VocalMinority\\\". Your notions of the only reasons one joined the SS are also somewhat incomplete. Deserved or not the SS had a reputation as being [[Film/MenInBlack the best of the best of the best]], and unlike the regular army not being of the aristocracy wasn\\\'t a roadblock to reasonably fast promotion. That would especially make it interesting to a non-aristocrat who doesn\\\'t want to be stuck mucking out toilets until he\\\'s an old man. And that\\\'s not even getting into the conscriptions into the Waffen-SS starting around 1943.
It seems you think that the indoctrination was 100% effective (or close enough to be of no difference), when the historical case is rather less sanguine about its effectiveness. Sure, there was a lot of indoctrination into the racial superiority stuff, and the majority of members \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' buy it wholeheartedly, but unless you want little more than meatpuppets (which tend to do poorly as elite soldiers) there\\\'s only so far you can go to make it stick. Hell, the defecting soviet frigate that inspired TheHuntForRedOctober had the mutiny lead by the fig\\\'s PoliticalOfficer, who was supposed to be the very model of Party Purity, and tasked with \\\'\\\'stopping\\\'\\\' mutinies, not starting them. Even with the extra indoctrination as the representative of \\\"the sword and shield of the party\\\", he still tried to defect, which doesn\\\'t speak too well of the effectiveness of indoctrination.
As for Muehlenkampf\\\'s views, they weren\\\'t really covered much at all beyond getting the units formed up. Having joined the Waffen-SS after service in the regular army, he wasn\\\'t subject to all of the indoctrination of someone who joined the SS as their first military experience. Yes, the SS were political soldiers, but the \\\"soldier\\\" part wasn\\\'t just window dressing, and although separate from the regular army were under the command of the OKW.
As for UnfortunateImplications, the trope page says it\\\'s for \\\'\\\'unintended\\\'\\\' (emphasis in original) implications, and the afterward for Watch says that Kratman and Ringo did it intentionally.
\\\'\\\'\\\"But why the bloody damned SS?\\\" the sensitive reader asks. Put simply, because they would be there in John\\\'s universe. Deal. \\\"But what about Malmedy?\\\" Go do a Google search: \\\"biscari sicily peiper.\\\" Let ye among you. \\\"But the concentration camps? Babi Yar? The holocaust?\\\" To which we would answer, \\\"Horrible things and the men responsible should have all been hanged. But we fail to see why those things would keep desperately needed soldiers out of action, whatever larger organization they belonged to and whatever symbols they wore.\\\"\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
There is another reason, too. Dear reader, we wanted to shock the hell out of you.\\\'\\\'
It seems you think that the indoctrination was 100% effective (or close enough to be of no difference), when the historical case is rather less sanguine about its effectiveness. Sure, there was a lot of indoctrination into the racial superiority stuff, and the majority of members \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' buy it wholeheartedly, but unless you want little more than meatpuppets (which tend to do poorly as elite soldiers) there\\\'s only so far you can go to make it stick. Hell, the defecting soviet frigate that inspired TheHuntForRedOctober had the mutiny lead by the fig\\\'s PoliticalOfficer, who was supposed to be the very model of Party Purity, and tasked with \\\'\\\'stopping\\\'\\\' mutinies, not starting them. Even with the extra indoctrination as the representative of \\\"the sword and shield of the party\\\", he still tried to defect, which doesn\\\'t speak too well of the effectiveness of indoctrination.
As for Muehlenkampf\\\'s views, they weren\\\'t really covered much at all beyond getting the units formed up. Having joined the Waffen-SS after service in the regular army, he wasn\\\'t subject to all of the indoctrination of someone who joined the SS as their first military experience. Yes, the SS were political soldiers, but the \\\"soldier\\\" part wasn\\\'t just window dressing, and although separate from the regular army were under the command of the OKW.
As for UnfortunateImplications, the trope page says it\\\'s for \\\'\\\'unintended\\\'\\\' (emphasis in original) implications, and the afterward for Watch says that Kratman and Ringo did it intentionally.
\\\'\\\'\\\"But why the bloody damned SS?\\\" the sensitive reader asks. Put simply, because they would be there in John\\\'s universe. Deal. \\\"But what about Malmedy?\\\" Go do a Google search: \\\"biscari sicily peiper.\\\" Let ye among you. \\\"But the concentration camps? Babi Yar? The holocaust?\\\" To which we would answer, \\\"Horrible things and the men responsible should have all been hanged. But we fail to see why those things would keep desperately needed soldiers out of action, whatever larger organization they belonged to and whatever symbols they wore.\\\"\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
There is another reason, too. Dear reader, we wanted to shock the hell out of you.\\\'\\\'
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
Nowhere in the entirety of Watch (which I just re-read, to refresh my memory) was it even implied that \
to:
Nowhere in the entirety of Watch (which I just re-read, to refresh my memory) was it even implied that \\\"the whole murderous racist thing was just a VocalMinority\\\". Your notions of the only reasons one joined the SS are also somewhat incomplete. Deserved or not the SS had a reputation as being [[Film/MenInBlack the best of the best of the best]], and unlike the regular army not being of the aristocracy wasn\\\'t a roadblock to reasonably fast promotion. That would especially make it interesting to a non-aristocrat who doesn\\\'t want to be stuck mucking out toilets until he\\\'s an old man. And that\\\'s not even getting into the conscriptions into the Waffen-SS starting around 1943.
It seems you think that the indoctrination was 100% effective (or close enough to be of no difference), when the historical case is rather less sanguine about its effectiveness. Sure, there was a lot of indoctrination into the racial superiority stuff, and the majority of members \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' buy it wholeheartedly, but unless you want little more than meatpuppets (which tend to do poorly as elite soldiers) there\\\'s only so far you can go to make it stick. Hell, the defecting soviet frigate that inspired TheHuntForRedOctober had the mutiny lead by the fig\\\'s PoliticalOfficer, who was supposed to be the very model of Party Purity, and tasked with \\\'\\\'stopping\\\'\\\' mutinies, not starting them. Even with the extra indoctrination as the representative of \\\"the sword and shield of the party\\\", he still tried to defect, which doesn\\\'t speak too well of the effectiveness of indoctrination.
As for Muehlenkampf\\\'s views, they weren\\\'t really covered much at all beyond getting the units formed up. Having joined the Waffen-SS after service in the regular army, he wasn\\\'t subject to all of the indoctrination of someone who joined the SS as their first military experience. Yes, the SS were political soldiers, but the \\\"soldier\\\" part wasn\\\'t just window dressing, and although separate from the regular army were under the command of the OKW.
As for UnfortunateImplications, the trope page says it\\\'s for \\\'\\\'unintended\\\'\\\' (emphasis in original) implications, and the afterward for Watch says that Kratman and Ringo did it intentionally.
\\\'\\\'\\\"But why the bloody damned SS?\\\" the sensitive reader asks. Put simply, because they would be there in John\\\'s universe. Deal. \\\"But what about Malmedy?\\\" Go do a Google search: \\\"biscari sicily peiper.\\\" Let ye among you. \\\"But the concentration camps? Babi Yar? The holocaust?\\\" To which we would answer, \\\"Horrible things and the men responsible should have all been hanged. But we fail to see why those things would keep desperately needed soldiers out of action, whatever larger organization they belonged to and whatever symbols they wore.\\\"
There is another reason, too. Dear reader, we wanted to shock the hell out of you.\\\'\\\'
It seems you think that the indoctrination was 100% effective (or close enough to be of no difference), when the historical case is rather less sanguine about its effectiveness. Sure, there was a lot of indoctrination into the racial superiority stuff, and the majority of members \\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\' buy it wholeheartedly, but unless you want little more than meatpuppets (which tend to do poorly as elite soldiers) there\\\'s only so far you can go to make it stick. Hell, the defecting soviet frigate that inspired TheHuntForRedOctober had the mutiny lead by the fig\\\'s PoliticalOfficer, who was supposed to be the very model of Party Purity, and tasked with \\\'\\\'stopping\\\'\\\' mutinies, not starting them. Even with the extra indoctrination as the representative of \\\"the sword and shield of the party\\\", he still tried to defect, which doesn\\\'t speak too well of the effectiveness of indoctrination.
As for Muehlenkampf\\\'s views, they weren\\\'t really covered much at all beyond getting the units formed up. Having joined the Waffen-SS after service in the regular army, he wasn\\\'t subject to all of the indoctrination of someone who joined the SS as their first military experience. Yes, the SS were political soldiers, but the \\\"soldier\\\" part wasn\\\'t just window dressing, and although separate from the regular army were under the command of the OKW.
As for UnfortunateImplications, the trope page says it\\\'s for \\\'\\\'unintended\\\'\\\' (emphasis in original) implications, and the afterward for Watch says that Kratman and Ringo did it intentionally.
\\\'\\\'\\\"But why the bloody damned SS?\\\" the sensitive reader asks. Put simply, because they would be there in John\\\'s universe. Deal. \\\"But what about Malmedy?\\\" Go do a Google search: \\\"biscari sicily peiper.\\\" Let ye among you. \\\"But the concentration camps? Babi Yar? The holocaust?\\\" To which we would answer, \\\"Horrible things and the men responsible should have all been hanged. But we fail to see why those things would keep desperately needed soldiers out of action, whatever larger organization they belonged to and whatever symbols they wore.\\\"
There is another reason, too. Dear reader, we wanted to shock the hell out of you.\\\'\\\'
