Discussion History Analysis / AntiHero

The thing is that Dark Schneider and his ilk really \\\'\\\'are\\\'\\\' VillainSue types, and, for the specific edited-out case, several of the supposed \\\"heroes\\\" of classic myths didn\\\'t actually display any \\\"actions for the good of humanity\\\" or benevolent traits at all, could easily be bloodthirsty invaders, crazed kinslayers, rapists, torturers, scheming assassins, murderers of innocents, etc, as an ideal admired as the epitome of human achievement by the populace telling stories about them; and strictly limiting the Greek definition to \\\"might makes right\\\" and occasional KarmaHoudini, well it definitely sounds like VillainSue material to me.

Also, plenty of the included have slaughtered or tortured countless innocent people, so although I agree about your evaluation regarding the (very ironically) \\\'\\\'tamest\\\'\\\' and most idealistic type V\\\'s, such as \\\"V for Vendetta\\\" (who both had an extremely traumatic JerkJustifications in being subjected to Mengele-style experiments, was up against a Nazist government, and as such could be seen as a more extreme version of the German soldiers who attempted to kill Hitler... recently more popularised in {{Valkyrie}}), I disagree about the most extreme cases being limited to CompleteMonster targets, and they recurrently more than qualify as CompleteMonster types themselves.

Regardless, I like your idea of limiting ourselves to the most defining tropes, and then putting the strictly very common ones in a sub-section.

EvilVersusEvil, TheUnfettered, UberMensch, and VillainProtagonist are probably some of the most prioritised, but PsychoForHire and KnightTemplar are good as well.

I\\\'m not familiar enough with ByronicHero to know if it is limited to the type V section? Are they completely devoid of benevolence or consumed by mass-murdering torturing or supremacist bloodthirst, or can they simply be very flawed good people like Shinji Ikari, alternately simply be less extreme type IV\\\'s?

You\\\'re probably right about type I. It simply seems like a bit of an unfair category as a whole, as lots of very troubled but decent people are implied as equivalent to genuine assholes by it. Although I was only interested in putting the \\\"heroic but unfortunate\\\" part as type 2.5, whereas most of the others would probably be closer to type 3.5, but it\\\'s harder to say. Hmm... The entire problem is that the ancient Greeks believed in the brave psychopath UberMensch ideal as heroic, so not fitting into it is definitely not necessarily a \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' thing.

The thing is that Dark Schneider and his ilk really \\\'\\\'are\\\'\\\' VillainSue types, and, for the specific edited-out case, several of the supposed \\\"heroes\\\" of classic myths didn\\\'t actually display any \\\"actions for the good of humanity\\\" or benevolent traits at all, could easily be bloodthirsty invaders, crazed kinslayers, rapists, torturers, scheming assassins, murderers of innocents, etc, as an ideal admired as the epitome of human achievement by the populace telling stories about them; and strictly limiting the Greek definition to \\\"might makes right\\\" and occasional KarmaHoudini, well it definitely sounds like VillainSue material to me.

Also, plenty of the included have slaughtered or tortured countless innocent people, so although I agree about your evaluation regarding the (very ironically) \\\'\\\'tamest\\\'\\\' and most idealistic type V\\\'s, such as \\\"V for Vendetta\\\" (who both had an extremely traumatic JerkJustifications in being subjected to Mengele-style experiments, was up against a Nazist government, and as such could be seen as a more extreme version of the German soldier who attempted to kill Hitler... recently more popularised by TomCruise), I disagree about the most extreme cases being limited to CompleteMonster targets, and they recurrently more than qualify as CompleteMonster types themselves.

Regardless, I like your idea of limiting ourselves to the most defining tropes, and then putting the strictly very common ones in a sub-section.

EvilVersusEvil, TheUnfettered, UberMensch, and VillainProtagonist are probably some of the most prioritised, but PsychoForHire and KnightTemplar are good as well.

I\\\'m not familiar enough with ByronicHero to know if it is limited to the type V section? Are they completely devoid of benevolence or consumed by mass-murdering torturing or supremacist bloodthirst, or can they simply be very flawed good people like Shinji Ikari, alternately simply be less extreme type IV\\\'s?

You\\\'re probably right about type I. It simply seems like a bit of an unfair category as a whole, as lots of very troubled but decent people are implied as equivalent to genuine assholes by it. Although I was only interested in putting the \\\"heroic but unfortunate\\\" part as type 2.5, whereas most of the others would probably be closer to type 3.5, but it\\\'s harder to say. Hmm... The entire problem is that the ancient Greeks believed in the brave psychopath UberMensch ideal as heroic, so not fitting into it is definitely not necessarily a \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' thing.

The thing is that Dark Schneider and his ilk really \\\'\\\'are\\\'\\\' VillainSue types, and, for the specific edited-out case, several of the supposed \\\"heroes\\\" of classic myths didn\\\'t actually display any \\\"actions for the good of humanity\\\" or benevolent traits at all, could easily be bloodthirsty invaders, crazed kinslayers, rapists, torturers, scheming assassins, murderers of innocents, etc, as an ideal admired as the epitome of human achievement by the populace telling stories about them; and strictly limiting the Greek definition to \\\"might makes right\\\" and occasional KarmaHoudini, well it definitely sounds like VillainSue material to me.

Also, plenty of the included have slaughtered or tortured countless innocent people, so although I agree about your evaluation regarding the (very ironically) \\\'\\\'tamest\\\'\\\' and most idealistic type V\\\'s, such as \\\"V for Vendetta\\\" (who both had an extremely traumatic JerkJustifications in being subjected to Mengele-style experiments, was up against a Nazist government, and as such could be seen as a more extreme version of the German soldier who attempted to kill Hitler... recently more popularised by TomCruise), I disagree about the most extreme cases being limited to CompleteMonster targets, and they recurrently more than qualify as CompleteMonster types themselves.

Regardless, I like your idea of limiting ourselves to the most defining tropes, and then putting the strictly very common ones in a sub-section.

EvilVersusEvil, TheUnfettered, UberMensch, and VillainProtagonist are probably some of the most prioritised, but PsychoForHire and KnightTemplar are good as well.

I\\\'m not familiar enough with ByronicHero to know if it is limited to the type V section? Are they completely devoid of benevolence or consumed by mass--murdering torturing or supremacist bloodthirst, or can they simply be very flawed good people like Shinji Ikari, alternately simply be less extreme type IV\\\'s?

You\\\'re probably right about type I. It simply seems like a bit of an unfair category as a whole, as lots of very troubled but decent people are implied as equivalent to genuine assholes by it. Although I was only interested in putting the \\\"heroic but unfortunate\\\" part as type 2.5, whereas most of the others would probably be closer to type 3.5, but it\\\'s harder to say. Hmm... The entire problem is that the ancient Greeks believed in the brave psychopath UberMensch ideal as heroic, so not fitting into it is definitely not necessarily a \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' thing.

The thing is that Dark Schneider and his ilk really \\\'\\\'are\\\'\\\' VillainSue types, and, for the specific edited-out case, several of the supposed \\\"heroes\\\" of classic myths didn\\\'t actually display any \\\"actions for the good of humanity\\\" or benevolent traits at all, could easily be bloodthirsty invaders, crazed kinslayers, rapists, scheming assassins, murderers of innocents, etc, and strictly limiting the Greek definition to \\\"might makes right\\\" and KarmaHoudini, well it definitely sounds like VillainSue material to me.

Also, plenty of the included have slaughtered or tortured countless innocent people, so although I agree about your evaluation regarding the (very ironically) \\\'\\\'tamest\\\'\\\' and most idealistic type V\\\'s, such as \\\"V for Vendetta\\\" (who both had an extremely traumatic JerkJustifications in being subjected to Mengele-style experiments, was up against a Nazist government, and as such could be seen as a more extreme version of the German soldier who attempted to kill Hitler... recently more popularised by TomCruise), I disagree about the most extreme cases being limited to CompleteMonster targets, and they recurrently more than qualify as CompleteMonster types themselves.

Regardless, I like your idea of limiting ourselves to the most defining tropes, and then putting the strictly very common ones in a sub-section.

EvilVersusEvil, TheUnfettered, UberMensch, and VillainProtagonist are probably some of the most prioritised, but PsychoForHire and KnightTemplar are good as well.

I\\\'m not familiar enough with ByronicHero to know if it is limited to the type V section? Are they completely devoid of benevolence or consumed by mass--murdering torturing or supremacist bloodthirst, or can they simply be very flawed good people like Shinji Ikari, alternately simply be less extreme type IV\\\'s?

You\\\'re probably right about type I. It simply seems like a bit of an unfair category as a whole, as lots of very troubled but decent people are implied as equivalent to genuine assholes by it. Although I was only interested in putting the \\\"heroic but unfortunate\\\" part as type 2.5, whereas most of the others would probably be closer to type 3.5, but it\\\'s harder to say. Hmm... The entire problem is that the ancient Greeks believed in the brave psychopath UberMensch ideal as heroic, so not fitting into it is definitely not necessarily a \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' thing.

The thing is that Dark Schneider and his ilk really \\\'\\\'are\\\'\\\' VillainSue types, and several of the supposed \\\"heroes\\\" of myth didn\\\'t actually display any \\\"actions for the good of humanity\\\" or benevolent traits at all, and strictly limiting the Greek definition to \\\"might makes right\\\" and KarmaHoudini, well it definitely sounds like VillainSue material to me.

Also, plenty of the included have slaughtered or tortured countless innocent people, so although I agree about your evaluation regarding the (very ironically) \\\'\\\'tamest\\\'\\\' and most idealistic type V\\\'s, such as \\\"V for Vendetta\\\" (who both had an extremely traumatic JerkJustifications in being subjected to Mengele-style experiments, was up against a Nazist government, and as such could be seen as a more extreme version of the German soldier who attempted to kill Hitler... recently more popularised by [[TomCruise]]), I disagree about the most extreme cases being limited to CompleteMonster targets, and they recurrently more than qualify as CompleteMonster types themselves.

Regardless, I like your idea of limiting ourselves to the most defining tropes, and then putting the strictly very common ones in a sub-section.

EvilVersusEvil, TheUnfettered, UberMensch, and VillainProtagonist are probably some of the most prioritised, but PsychoForHire and KnightTemplar are good as well.

I\\\'m not familiar enough with ByronicHero to know if it is limited to the type V section? Are they completely devoid of benevolence or consumed by mass--murdering torturing or supremacist bloodthirst, or can they simply be very flawed good people like Shinji Ikari, alternately simply be less extreme type IV\\\'s?

You\\\'re probably right about type I. It simply seems like a bit of an unfair category as a whole, as lots of very troubled but decent people are implied as equivalent to genuine assholes by it. Although I was only interested in putting the \\\"heroic but unfortunate\\\" part as type 2.5, whereas most of the others would probably be closer to type 3.5, but it\\\'s harder to say. Hmm... The entire problem is that the ancient Greeks believed in the brave psychopath UberMensch ideal as heroic, so not fitting into it is definitely not necessarily a \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' thing.