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resolved Franchise Fatal Frame: Recreate It? Videogame
The Fatal Frame videogames used to have a Franchise page that would work, but ultimately led to the Videogame page for the games. Overall, it worked just fine because all the games' tropes were listed there. Now that the sequels (Fatal Frame II until Fatal Frame: Maiden of Black Water) have gotten their own subpages, wouldn't it make sense to make a Franchise/Fatal Frame page again?
This way, the Franchise page can list all of the games and common tropes, with links to the games' own pages, while the Videogame/Fatal Frame page can list only the tropes and information for the first game itself.
resolved Possible EditWar on Characters/KingdomHeartsEnemyCreatures Videogame
In January 2019, both Phoenixion and Mattman_the_Storyteller deleted tropes that suggested that Commantis is actually a Brainwashed and Crazy spirit. Both gave edit
reasons
that said, basically, that the game itself gave no evidence to this.
In October, Aurawick added
the tropes back with no edit reason.
Personally, I agree with both Phoenixion and Mattman_the_Storyteller. Looking back, there is no evidence in game for the tropes. But since the tropes were added back without a reason, is this an Edit War?
Edited by SailorTardisresolved Not related stinger on main DMC page, keep or delete? Videogame
User TimeLordVictorious added this edit
to Devil May Cry, which on the one hand, I can understand some of the humor behind it. However, on the other hand, it's completely unrelated to the page itself, so was wondering if it should be removed or not.
resolved A troper who keeps posting dubious tropes on the Final Fantasy 7 Remake Main Character section. Videogame
Someone named Frankie 3 keeps re-posting the same ill-fitting tropes on Tifa Lockhart's character page despite me and other tropers already having pointed out why he needs to stop doing it. Like for example, trying to pin the "Token Good Teammate" label to Tifa when the rest of the party aren't even evil people, at worst having some anti-heroic traits that don't even scale into particularly dark levels. And then there's him posting links to some random wiki to try and add proof of claim when it directly violates troping rule that pages are only for what is found within the work itself. What should be done about him?
Edited by 9thOutworldsManresolved Bad Sequelitis Entry on YMMV Total War Warhammer III Videogame
A while back, there was an Edit War ATT concerning the Sequelitis entry on Total War: Warhammer III. See here
. I don't disagree that it was Edit Warring, but what got lost in that discussion is that the offending entry is genuinely bad, violates a number of rules and is very outdated compared to the current state of the game. For context here is the current entry as it stands on that page.
- Sequelitis: It was very clear that the team developing this game and the team maintaining the previous game either disagreed heavily or just weren't coordinating as much of the fixes, patches, updates, and design evolutions that made the previous game so popular were not present at the launch of this one. The game shifted back in favor of things that were either patched out of or specifically avoided in the previous game resulting in a launch that many fans agree was a major step backwards.
- "Poorly Optimized" is an understatement when you see the litany of programming errors that caused a lot of vitriol among the players
. It's widely theorized that the core of the game was forked off an older build of the previous game before the big Potion of Speed update and thus never received most of the multitude of fixes, patches, and updates present in that patch and subsequent ones.
- The skill and tech trees for many factions are poorly-executed, with many technologies or skills that range from underwhelming (+1% chance for a plague to spread for Nurgle) to completely useless (Leadership bonuses for an Unbreakable unit). Several skills and technologies also don't do what the description says they do, making it hard to know what bonus you're actually getting. On top of this, some factions have their unique bonuses and unit abilities gated behind technologies (such as Tzeentch's Teleport stance, Kislev's Ice Court mechanic, and the spellcasting abilities of every Greater Daemon, with each spell having its own technology), something that was specifically hated about the Greenskins in the first game and removed from them with a series of reworks in the second. Patch 1.2 focused heavily on beefing up factions' tech trees, mitigating this.
- While they raised the level cap for Heroes and Lords to level 50 they didn't necessarily give them any more skills, meaning some heroes can get more skill points than they can spend; Iridescent Horrors with the Lore of Tzeentch, for example, can only spend 47 due to having mutually-exclusive skills, and even if they didn't would only have 49. This was previously only a problem with mods and those modders had solved the problem early in the first game's lifecycle.
- Many players and reviewers alike agree the game's UI is both less appealing and harder to read due to the overemphasis on the color red compared to the previous game's more vibrant interface. A common source of frustration is that the colors for many different functions are effectively the same, making it impossible to quickly distinguish if a settlement is, for example, building a structure or demolishing it.
- The campaign that launched with the game, Realm of Chaos, doubled down on the elements players hated about the second game's Vortex campaign (particularly the time pressure and the random invasions) without making many improvements, ignoring well-received diversification of faction objectives and stories from the previous game's DLC packs. See Scrappy Mechanic for more details on why the Reign of Chaos campaign mechanics are especially loathed. The reception of this campaign was so bad Creative Assembly had to delay their first planned update and rush out Patch 1.1 specifically to address it.
- The series has long had a reputation for amazing mods that expand and improve on the game in a myriad of ways. This game did not launch with Steam Workshop support and went without for two months until the 1.1 update.
- "Poorly Optimized" is an understatement when you see the litany of programming errors that caused a lot of vitriol among the players
And here is my critique of this entry and its sub-bullets, breaking it down by the elements.
1. For starters this entry really shouldn't be broken down into multiple sub-bullets. They give the appearance of a Wall of Text. A single bullet that's Clear, Concise, Witty is preferable.
2. ""Poorly Optimized" is an understatement" etc.: The video link can stay but the words inside it should be rewritten and the rest of the paragraph should be cut. One half is hyperbolic Word Cruft with unnecessary italics, the other is pure speculation.
3. "The skill and tech trees for many factions" etc.: The points can stand but the bracketed text should be moved into Notes to make the paragraph more concise. Also, the text may need to be put into past tense as the subbullet itself admits CA have been working on this, though I think it should go as I would rather keep that element for last.
4. "While they raised the level cap for Heroes and Lords" etc.: The point is valid, but IMO we can reduce this to a single sentence or even a fragment of one. e.g. CA raised the level cap for Lords and Heroes to 50, but some characters don't have enough room for that many skill points.
5. "Many players and reviewers alike agree the game's UI" etc.: Can delete. The point is valid but they directly addressed it in a later patch which means it should go under Author's Saving Throw. At most a fragment of a sentence like "issues with the game's interface due to poor colour balance and excessive use of bright red".
6. "The campaign that launched with the game" etc.: Valid but needs compression and to remove the reference to Scrappy Mechanic which is considered bad form. A single sentence should do it.
7. "The series has long had a reputation" etc.: Delete. Yes it was frustrating but it's been addessed.
So with all these in mind, a revised version of the entry as I see it would go something like this:
- Sequelitis: At launch, the game was very divisively and even negatively received for feeling like a step backwards after the much-lauded final state of Total War: Warhammer II. Reasons for this include a large host of glitches, bugs and programming errors
that made it feel unpolished, complaints about poor choices for skillnote Ranging from underwhelming (+1% chance for a plague to spread for Nurgle) to completely useless (Leadership bonuses for an Unbreakable unit). and technology treesnote Some factions had their unique bonuses and unit abilities gated behind technologies, such as Tzeentch's Teleport stance, Kislev's Ice Court mechanic, and the spellcasting abilities of every Greater Daemon, with each spell having its own technology. for certain races, CA raising the level cap for Lords and Heroes to 50 but not accounting for characters who didn't have enough skills to accommodate 49 skill points, issues with the game's interface due to poor colour balance and excessive use of bright red, not launching with built-in support for Game Mods like its predecessors did, which might have mitigated some people's complaints about it, and worst of all, a base game campaign that was almost universally derided for loathsome mechanics, an irritating amount of time pressure and homogenising the storylines and campaign goals of the factions featured, making people who hated the how the Vortex campaign in the second game started out before DLC packs brought diversification of faction objectives and stories cry, "Oh, No... Not Again!" Fortunately, CA have since worked hard to address all these issues throught game patches and their first DLC pack, which has led to the game getting a much more positive reception.
Note this is not the final form I would put it in, I just needed to make something for this, but I also wanted to achieve consensus before I posted it. Thoughts?
Edited by MinisterOfSinisterresolved Should we prioritize Canon Names for protagonists that can be named anything by the player? Videogame
What's the standard here? In I Was a Teenage Exocolonist, the game suggests naming your character Solane/Solana/Solanaceae, implying that either of the three's their Canon Name if you don't name them yourself. However, in all its pages, they have been referred to as either "Sol", "the protagonist", "the MC", or "you". Do we stick to one name/identifier for them, or are all of them "correct"?
resolved Unspoilered context for spoilers Videogame
Pokémon Scarlet and Violet currently has an almost-entirely-white example for its Magnificent Bastard entry. It was not like that previously: I wrote part of it outside the spoilers to give context. For the record, here's what it was previously:
- Magnificent Bastard: The Final Bosses of the game caught many players off-guard for how ingenious they are: Professor Sada (in Scarlet) / Professor Turo (in Violet) was Arven's parent who discovered and utilized the Terastal phenomenon while exploring the Great Crater of Paldea. The Professor proceeded to use the Tera crystals to create a time machine with hopes of building a paradise for their family, using the machine to bring over Pokémon from the past/future, in spite of their threats to Paldea's ecosystem. Even with the Professor's untimely death as a result of their research, their numerous security systems and failsafes, including forcing their AI copy to battle any threat to the machine and, in the event that would fail, locking all Poké Balls except their own, would defend the time machine from the protagonist and their friends, demonstrating the Professor's willingness to allow the destruction of the region for the creation of paradise.
And here's what it looks like now:
- Magnificent Bastard: Professor Sada (in Scarlet) / Professor Turo (in Violet) was Arven's parent who discovered and utilized the Terastal phenomenon while exploring the Great Crater of Paldea. The Professor proceeded to use the Tera crystals to create a time machine with hopes of building a paradise for their family, using the machine to bring over Pokémon from the past/future, in spite of their threats to Paldea's ecosystem. Even with the Professor's untimely death as a result of their research, their numerous security systems and failsafes, including forcing their AI copy to battle any threat to the machine and, in the event that would fail, locking all Poké Balls except their own, would defend the time machine from the protagonist and their friends, demonstrating the Professor's willingness to allow the destruction of the region for the creation of paradise.
Shooting Star 7 X deleted the non-spoilered context, with the edit reason of "Plently of Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard writeups are completely spoilered out, and this addition would make no sense without spoiler markup (i.e. on Magnificent Bastard.Pokemon)."
I don't see the reasoning behind that. "Other examples also do this" isn't good justification; Self-Fulfilling Spoiler points out that fully-spoiled examples are bad writing. Also, "this wouldn't make sense if it wasn't a spoiler" doesn't work either, because the example is a spoiler, and it's not like my addition detracts from the example if it's read in its entirety without a spoiler — at least, in my opinion.
I asked ShootingStar7X in a PM, but they didn't respond to me. I also consulted Magnificent Bastard to see if there's a rule that all MB entries must be fully spoiled, and it doesn't say.
Am I clear to restore the edit I made previously?
resolved "Acceptable" H-games Videogame
Seeing that some H-games do get a page and some don't, I got a bit confused about how content rules actually work regarding those; just how H-games actually do get their pages and it gets decided "okay, those may stay"? Is there a pre-moderation for those? Or it's "take the risk now, get executed by a firing squad later if we don't like it"? And what are the signs that there's a point to even bother, that it may pass?
I have one in mind (it's Overgrown: Genesis), as I genuinely like it (for its story and characters; was genuinely surprised myself at first, I originally only looked for something short which I can translate for practice), but want to make sure before even bothering with drafting, as it's better to throw out an idea than hours or days of writing. I wouldn't put it in sandbox until later anyway, but want to know in advance.
It's set After the End (Zombie Apocalypse, similar to one in Last of Us; albeit backstory is closer to the series rather than the games, despite predating it), and has rather bleak atmosphere; it starts as a story of survivor who was backstabbed and left for dead on the first field operation, but gradually becomes a battle for survival of humanity. Gameplay-wise, it's Survival Horror. It seems that almost entire H-content is avoidable; few scenes happens regardless of the player's actions, but it should be entirely possible to just write without mentioning them.
resolved Old Removal from Lode Runner Videogame
Hi, I was looking through the YMMV section of Lode Runner and noticed that one of the older edits was the removal of a rather large section of content for Surrealism and Nothing is Scarier, with the only reason being that it was "Not YMMV," but it was never relocated anywhere else.
I read through the removed sections and determined it still seemed like an appropriate use of those tropes, however I would like input on whether or not it should go back to YMMV, or if those tropes belong in the main page of tropes? I'm still relatively new to this so any input on this would be a big help.
Edit: I made the changes myself after some light research on page editing. This can be disregarded.
Edited by MidnightRun99resolved Broken Base and other Recent Examples in MMOs? Videogame
So today, RuneScape (specifically Runescape 3) got an update that is fairly controversial, regarding the identity of a fairly major NPC, and I'm wondering how to address it on the trope page; RS itself has been out for over twenty years, but the update is literally not even a day old. Do I add a Broken Base example now, or do I have to wait six months from today (January 17th, 2024) to do it?
resolved Is "needlessly vindicitive" a proper edit reason for removal? Videogame
Black Yakuzu 94 removed several entries from the one of the recap pages
for Fate/Grand Order, claiming to be "removing needlessly vindicitive comments". Their removal of certain tropes from the YMMV page for that recap page but without an edit reason prompts to ask if that is a legitimate reasoning, if the entries were actually that, or if this was a case of agenda based editing.
Removals from the main page:
- Asshole Victim: Even before Morgan's backstory was revealed, the majority of Faeries that the protagonist encounters outside their closest allies are jerks, backstabbers, manipulators, pretenders, violent murderers and worse. And then there's Morgan's backstory which is just an endless cycle of her being betrayed by the very Faeries she's trying to save. It makes her harsh oppression of them as the Queen almost justifiable.
- Kick The Son Of A Bitch: Oberon Vortigern is the final boss and the eventual Arc Villain, and he intends to destroy all of Proper Human History after escaping the Lostbelt alongside killing off Chaldea to keep them from stopping him. Definitely not a good guy in the slightest. But... when he actually accelerated the destruction of the ungrateful Faerie races? And that he boasts that at least he succeeded in destroying Fairy Britain? Well, seeing just how horrific they are, it can be tempting to pat Oberon Vortigern's shoulders and tell him 'job well done'. Same with Cernunnos' reawakening and then giving Oberon Vortigern what he needed to start his plan.
- World of Jerkass: While other Lostbelts are very much definition of Crapsack World, they were inhabited with complicated beings who are capable of both good and bad. This Lostbelt is notorious for having a majority of its inhabitants being selfish, backstabbing, greedy, lazy, ungrateful, manipulative assholes, while decent faeries can be counted with two hands at most and those tend to be met with horrific ends at the hands of the asshole ones. It was these inherent self-destructive tendencies 'in the name of fun' that led the world to ruin (with Morgan adopting tyranny to put up any semblance of order, and even that was only temporary until she was ousted and betrayed). The EX Difference Depth classification of the Lostbelt isn't just for show.
Altered on the main page (Bold portion was removed)
- Downer Ending: While previous Lostbelts all end in a bittersweet note, this one's ending is really bleak. The entirety of the Faerie British Isle is torn to pieces by the Calamities, with the only three characters surviving it until the world's end being Melusine Albion, who is just barely holding herself together, Oberon Vortigern, who is stuck inside the Insect of the Abyss so that it can't escape outside, and Aurora, who is slowly dying anyway. Furthermore, Chaldea's secondary mission to retrieve Rhongomyniad ends up failing as the lances were all used to try to kill Cernunnos and they were unable to save anyone from the Lostworld. Sion also hints in the ending that Chaldea's good luck streak of conquering Lostbelts without casualties is about to end. The only good that came out of it is stopping the world from being destroyed and they were able to get an alternate tool, a physical version of Excalibur, to defeat the Foreign God. There’s also the silver lining that all the malignant Faeries deserved what they got for being such assholes of the highest order and put everyone, including the world itself, through hell for their selfishness and fickle nature.
- Mercy Kill: What the heroes have to end up doing to the few good fairies who really didn't deserve to die
Removed from the YMMV page
- Catharsis Factor: Unlike the first five Lostbelts, the players will probably be very happy to see Cosmos Denial after completing the chapter considering how awful the fae are.
resolved That One Boss natter? Videogame
I tried to bring this up in the cleanup thread
, but to no avail.
This was recently added under Sillydillo's entry in ThatOneBoss.Kirby:
- In a June 2022 interview with Nintendo Dream, Shinya Kumazaki admitted that members of the development team often raised complaints about Sillydillo's difficulty... including Kumazaki himself. You know a boss deserves to be on this list when the people who made the game wound up finding him too tough!
Seems like natter to me, but should I remove it?
resolved Rewriting Walkthrough Mode Page Videogame
Here's the summary of Walkthrough Mode:
For example, let's say Alice adds the Puppy Stomper 3000 to That One Boss. Bob follows this up by stating, "Actually, the Puppy Stomper isn't tough if you have the Ring of Puppy Protection, which only requires you to do X, Y and Z." Then Clara comes by and adds, "To be fair, you need Sven in your party to use the Ring of Puppy Protection. It's easier to use the Stick of Puppy Protection, which only requires you to bring the Ring of Puppy Protection to the Ring Transumation Fairy in Scary Town."
Using the example from the above paragraph, here's what it looks like on a page.
- That One Boss: Puppy Stomper 3000 is hard because of blah blah.
- Actually, the Puppy Stomper isn't tough if you have the Ring of Puppy Protection, which only requires you to do X, Y and Z.
- To be fair, you need Sven in your party to use the Ring of Puppy Protection. It's easier to use the Stick of Puppy Protection, which only requires you to bring the Ring of Puppy Protection to the Ring Transumation Fairy in Scary Town.
- Actually, the Puppy Stomper isn't tough if you have the Ring of Puppy Protection, which only requires you to do X, Y and Z.
The first two paragraphs basically describe a videogame mechanics-themed version of Thread Mode, which... editors shouldn't do either, but if all the page has to say is "don't thread mode about game mechanics", it probably doesn't need to exist — just point to Thread Mode instead.
To my understanding, what Walkthrough Mode should tell readers is that they should avoid cluttering examples with numbers, niche mechanics, and long-winded guides that are only tangentially relevant to how there is an example of a trope — this is suggested to me by that last paragraph. Here's a version I think could work, which emphasizes that:
For example, let's say Alice lists the Puppy Stompertron as an example of That One Boss, engaging in Walkthrough Mode to do so:
- That One Boss: The Puppy Stompertron appears at the end of the Puppy Factory and presents a massive roadblock to the player. It's got a massive 70,000 HP health bar (by the end of the factory, you'll be dealing 300 DPS at best), has immunity to Bleed, Stun, Dizzy, Confuse, and Love, and all of its attacks are That One Attack. Puppy Squishing deals 10,000 damage and can only be survived with the Anti-Ten Thousand Medal from the Numbers Swamp, Puppy Flamethrowing is supposed to deal only 40 damage to the player once but a bug with the level geometry can cause the flames to deal 400 damage if the player's standing on the many hills around the arena, and the Dog Food Ingester will heal it back to full unless the player has done the sidequest to obtain Dog Food Poison, which is easily missable at the start of the game. The only thing that can make this easy is the Puppy Stompertron Control Device to cut its HP in half, which is only available to builds that use the Dagger of Air Vent Entry, a 37 Charisma build to take it from the Puppy Factory Foreman (you can't go with any other level of Charisma, he starts liking you too much if you do), or a glitched maximum Speed character to clip through the northeast locked door and access the room where it's stored.
As you can see, this entry is hard to read because it's loaded with tangents on whole-game strategies and numbers that mean nothing to an outsider, when all that's needed is to explain how the Puppy Stompertron boss is harder than the rest of the game. Let's see an example that does just that:
- That One Boss: The Puppy Stompertron appears at the end of the Puppy Factory and presents a massive roadblock to the player. It has massive HP for that point at the game, immunity to many of the useful status effects, and all of its attacks are That One Attack — dealing massive damage or healing itself to full. The only ways to get past it painlessly involve highly-specific strategies and/or exploiting glitches, neither of which are available to every character class.
This entry is much more succinct in stating why the Puppy Stompertron is an example of That One Boss: it has high stats, immunity to statuses, powerful attacks, and the mechanics to make it easier aren't universally applicable. By cutting out details, the example becomes easier to read and digestible, yet the non-Walkthrough Mode entry still manages to communicate key points on why the Puppy Stompertron is this trope.
As a side bonus, when talking about games that are receiving post-launch updates, avoiding exact numbers gives a degree of futureproofing. In many games, if a change needs to be made, the numbers are usually first to be adjusted, so if the Puppy Stompertron ever has its HP or damage values changed this way, the example doesn't suddenly need an update to correct those parts.
While it is understandable why Walkthrough Mode happens, wiki articles are not walkthroughs for how to beat That One Boss or That One Level. Trope examples should be generic enough that those who aren't familiar with the game can understand them, and shouldn't be cluttered with something like the exact attack strength of a weapon or helpful asides about which two of the three Superbosses can be affected by the Game-Breaker. This isn't to say that you shouldn't list your example with little to no information, which is the opposite problem; you just need to explain why your example is that of the trope in question in a way that's digestible to the average reader.
See also Word Cruft, another writing element that makes examples bloated and indigestible by adding too many unnecessary words.
Does this look good to use on the page?
Edited by Pyhrrousresolved Odd grammatical perhaps-corrections Videogame
Mr Derpy Kid 2 changed "themselves" into "themself" on Characters.Armored Core VI Main Characters and Characters.Armored Core VI Corporations. I've never seen it used this way before, and all my googling showed was "some people might be using it, IDK spidey lol".
Do I correct this (and send a notifier)? Is this even the sort of change that needs correcting?
resolved Non-YMMV trope in YMMV page: Final Fantasy Legend II Videogame
...And I thought it wouldn't ever happen again, but it does:
In the page YMMV.Final Fantasy Legend II, Nintendo Hard is listed there. Speaking of which, Video Games difficulty might be subjective between players, but if a lot of players see the Video Game with trope page in this site is seen as hard, it would been listed in the main page, rather than the YMMV.
Oddly enough, the trope has been there from the creation of the YMMV page, which is relatively new compared to the main Video Game page itself, and created in January 2021, likely to make out a separate YMMV page for Final Fantasy Legend II).
What will I do?
EDIT: As of this TRS thread
, apparently the decision of Nintendo Hard being subjective has resulted it in being moved to YMMV trope. So I guess it's fine to move it back to YMMV. And this is after I self-locked the query by marking it as Resolved! Dang it.
resolved Transphobic edit reason Videogame
mrluntishysterical removed
the Cross-Dressing Voices entry on Trivia.SuperMarioBrosWonder, citing that Giselle Fernandez is "biologically female", though Giselle themself is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns.
I reverted the entry already and sent them a notifier before writing this query, but I have a feeling this may turn into a possible agenda in the long run.
resolved Troper camping on the Sonic Adventure 2 pages. Videogame
Troper L Fisher has been cutting multiple edits that portray GUN (one of the antagonists of Sonic Adventure 2) exactly as negatively as the game itself does, and making edits that partially exonerate them for committing mass murder ("but the Black Arms!"); they also tend to cut any mention that GUN was implied to be framing Sonic. While all this has been going on for a while, my personal last straw was them doing both of these recently, reducing the "Frame-Up" entry to a single sentence that isn't even accurate (Shadow didn't frame Sonic, at least not intentionally).
Not only is it extremely difficult to make edits about GUN on these pages, but I feel that this is treading uncomfortably close to apologia for real-world atrocities.
resolved Possible Word Cruft? Videogame
I attempted to ask this in the "Is this Word Cruft?" thread
, but haven't gotten a response.
This was recently added to YMMV.Mario Kart 8:
- Let’s face it, even if you hadn’t seen the Prefix Leak or didn’t know it was in Tour, you knew Wii Rainbow Road would be the final track of the Booster Course Pass, so it wasn’t even a slight surprise upon its reveal.
While it's not wrong, as others (including myself) were indeed able to predict the course, it just comes of as crufty to me. What should I do?
Edited by ChillyBeanBAMresolved Possible edit war, spoilers on headers Videogame
Yuusha Fan has added a spoiler tag
on a header in this character page. I removed the tag
and then he added back in anyways
. The thing he added is literally a big time spoiler. Also there is no edit reasons, already DMed him about it. Can I undo that thing? I've already undid it once and I do not want to risk an edit war myself.

Is it okay to move LongStory's namespace from Video Game to Visual Novel because it is the latter, going by the way it is presented? If so, how do I do it without damaging the page itself?EDIT: Nevermind, it has already been moved.
Edited by TroperNo9001