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openIssues concerning WMG/FIsForFamily
Recently, an Edit War has broken out between two factions; a troper named Johnny 2071 who has acted in violation of Complaining About Shows You Dont Like, and both myself and fellow troper AHI-3000, who have taken issue with his edits. Johnny 2071 has an obsessive hatred of the Netflix show F is for Family and has taken to venting his frustrations about the show on the WMG page. Prior attempts to negotiate with Johnny 2071, on my part, have only led to tempers flying high. This attempt to resolve the issue personally has gotten me nowhere, so, on AHI-3000's suggestion, I have come here to try and work things out far more professionally than previously handled. How do you suggest this issue be resolved?
openWandaVision edit war
There appears to have been an Edit War over the entry on YMMV.Wanda Vision Episode 5 On A Very Special Episode over an Unintentionally Sympathetic entry. I don't have context for the show, but I figured it was worth bringing up to those who did.
Lighthammer added it as follows:
- Unintentionally Sympathetic: While Hayward does go overboard with his attack on Wanda, he is absolutely right in the fact that an entire town is being held against their will by -what seems by all accounts to be- her. The trio of Darcy, Monica, and Woo on the other hand, seem to ascribe to Protagonist-Centered Morality.
emeriin removed the entry with the edit reason, "they're not saying she's not being awful just there's something more (like massive trauma) than just 'terrorism'."
Dragon Master 408 re-added it, while also adding more context to the entry. Their edit reason was "Unintentionally Sympathetic is about characters who are unintentionally sympathetic. And as it stands, I think there's a good case for Hayward being this, especially since Darcy herself describes him as a dick before it cuts her off, so it seems like we're supposed to find him in the wrong."
Then The Goddess Is Dead tweaked and moved the entire entry to Informed Wrongness saying, "It's not about sympathy for characters. It's more about the fact that the episode accidentally presents that Both Sides Have a Point when they clearly only intended for Woo, Darcy, and Monica to be right."
Not sure if it needs to be discussed further as Goddess seems to have found a compromise but it felt worth noting.
Edited by mightymewtronopen Reporting edit war, including self-report.
Troper Duncril 01 is still at it with removing Arch-Enemy from hero pages and insisting it is a villain only tropes, despite this already being resolved on this thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=95619&type=att
I undid the edits here
and here
while linking that thread as the edit reasons PLUS private messaging them, but he has failed to respond or listen, redoing the same edits that got undone.
I presume he has also removed this trope from countless other character pages too, but I'm not sure which ones.
Edited by Snowy66openGrojfan
Grojfan’s been showing numerous issues in their edits.
- They added images to Headscratchers.My Gym Partners A Monkey and Trivia.Casagrandes. The former is under “No Pic” on Image Pickin' Special Cases, and the latter probably shouldn’t have a pic either.
- They added an image to Heartwarming.The Casagrandes which I don’t understand in the slightest.
- Some self-indentation here
.
- This edit has two ZCEs, some concerning usage of the r-word, and some odd misuse of
Depraved Bisexual.
- Transphobic edit with more bad indentation and some CRF misuse
.
- Created NauseaFuel.My Gym Partners A Monkey, which has lots of ZCEs.
- They also added lots of misuse to Radar.My Gym Partners A Monkey (which they also created), but all of that is from a while ago.
openTroper making pages that have warranted immediate deletion
wordlessapple
has recently created a page (along with a couple of subpages) that violate ROCEJ. Specifically, the page tropes real-life people involved in a very long, very toxic comment thread on Youtube. The moment it was brought up
, it was agreed that it should be sent to the cutlist ASAP.
After the main page and Trivia page were sent to the cutlist, the troper who created the page made a YMMV page for it, so I sent that page to the cutlist and noted the cleanup thread. Concerned, I had a quick check at the troper's edit history and came across this
. I wouldn't recommend clicking that link if you're of a nervous disposition (or if you've just eaten), but it's a YMMV page with only one entry. An entry for a trope that has been disallowed examples for a very long time, not to mention the content of the entry itself. That page is also now on the cutlist, and this troper's activity worries me.
openAvoiding an edit war.
On Happiest Season I found a Unintentionally Unsympathetic that didn't really explain how a character is mean to be sympathetic:
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Harper. She is understandably afraid to come out to her conservative small-town family, but it doesn't excuse that she lied to Abby about being out and continuously acted in a way that made Abby uncomfortable.
- There's also the unambiguously cruel way in which Harper outed Riley, which is largely brushed off but which other, thematically similar films have treated as a Moral Event Horizon.
- And the fact that she smashed Jane's painting.
So I took it to the clean up thread here
. And most seemed to agree with me. So I cut it. However another troper York back added it here
with no new additions, except a link to an un related site and the reason of "after the movie came out, the points made in Fan-Preferred Couple and Unintentionally Unsympathetic have been discussed on social media and by Aubrey Plaza herself, so these entries have been added back in." Which I don't thinks is allowed. They also unhid a Zero Context example I hid for Fan-Preferred Couple, which from my research I am not sure qualifies, without new info. Then whoseliner deleted the second bullet here
I am trying to avoid an Edit war.
Edited by BullmanopenEdit War; self-reporting
Self reporting that ~St Fan and I have gotten into an Edit War (specifically on Fishbowl Helmet, but probably on others as well). I'm crosswicking examples from a Magazine, so I checked Media Categories, which doesn't have a category which fits, so I created a folder based on the namespace. Checking the history because it feels familiar, I find that St Fan has been changing the folders to say Print Media, which also isn't on Media Categories, but encompasses Comic Books and Literature in addition to Magazines.
So wiki consensus; which folder name is the correct one to use? Which one should be added to Media Categories?
open Possible edit war on AlternativeCharacterInterpretation/FireEmblemThreeHouses
I think this might be an edit war, but the time periods between edits are pretty long, so I'm looking for a second opinion.
On February 2020, Tdwalls added this entry to Fire Emblem: Three Houses:
The entry was removed on Vampire Buddha on July 2021 as part of a cleanup effort, and in their edit reason they mentioned that the changes were approved
.
Tdwalls then added the entry back on August 2021 with the following edit reason:
There was no attempt to bring the entry to discussion, and I'm also a little concerned that this particular troper seems quick to accuse people of being defensive over the subject of the entry, as can be seen in this discussion thread
.
openSuspicious troper
Throwaway 219 seems to have spent all of their edits removing "negative" tropes from The Last of Us Part II. Normally, that wouldn't be a huge deal, but the account was first active only 4 days ago, and the name itself sounds suspicious. I think he might be a ban evader.
openConflicting entries on YMMV.MyHeroAcademia Anime
- Americans Hate Tingle:
- Mineta is reasonably popular in Japan, reaching 17th place on the first popularity poll, but many Western fans loathe him with a passion thanks to him being an obnoxious, cowardly, and tasteless idiot whose Dirty Kid antics are a walking sexual harassment suit waiting to happen, and are wondering why the hell it hasn't gotten him expelled, because creeping on women the way he does is taken extremely seriously in American high schools. Most of them are praying for the day where he either 1) turns evil, 2) dies, or 3) turns evil and then dies so he could be replaced in Class 1-A by Shinso. The fact that Horikoshi has openly admitted Mineta is one of his favorite characters doesn't help matters either. Although even he's losing fans in Japan after his extremely inappropriate comment to Eri.
- The Scrappy: Mineta has a sizable hatedom and tends to rank low on popularity polls. This seems to be attributed to his perverted antics, which to a lot of fans comes across as annoying and/or gross rather than funny, and his arrogant attitude and looking down on others (like Todoroki or Bakugo) despite bringing nothing substantial to anything himself. There's also the fact that his character is painfully underdeveloped compared to others, yet, Horikoshi confessed that he is one of his favorite characters, due to being easy and fun to draw, so he tends to get a lot of screentime and page-time compared to other "side characters" in the class. It doesn't help that he's had virtually zero plot relevance at all since his introduction and has very little character development or exploration in the class. Many fans desperately wish (and write Fix Fic where) he leaves Class 1-A and is replaced by Shinso.
The Scrappy and Americans Hate Tingle are mutally exclusive, so one of these entries have to go. The last paragraph in Americans Hate Tingle implies that he's gotten hate in Japan after the Eri incident, but dosen't say anything if he has recovered from that since then, or if it was a temporary thing.
I'm asking here to get a consensus on what to do, I also asked here
.
open Tropineasily back again
tropineasily recently added both natter and bad indentation in the same edit. Usually I'd just send a notifier and move on, but in this case
I figured it was worth posting here.
EDIT: Also, they're having problems with English again. In this edit
they write "Riju, while the leader of the Gerudo, she's still a young girl, sometimes giggles to herself and plays with her plushies before going to sleep."
openLordGro in TLP
Lord Gro is being incredibly rude and kind of irrational. They're insisting that this
needs a better name, but then he doesn't suggest any new name. He also said "It's not an extravagant demand to use the right terms with the right definitions," except the name does use the correct definition. He also seems to be contradicting himself, changing his argument as the conversation goes on.
It's one of those "I just want us to be correct" sort of back-and-forth nonsensical gibberish. Then he bombed the draft "for irrelevance and garbled definition."
Except the proposal is relevant and the definition is not "garbled."
openCurb-Stomp Battles of Death Battle Web Original
It's come to recent attention that the Curb-Stomp Battle page for DEATH BATTLE! has a lot of issues. The page lists a lot of fights as examples, to the point that literally every episode from season six is listed. However, the entries seem to only focus on the post-fight analysis that determined the winner and not how the actual fight played out. The fight itself could be portrayed as pretty even, only for the analysis to point out the discrepancy between the two fighters.
Even if the hosts explain the fight was actually pretty close, those matches will still be listed because the victor had the advantage, which seems like misuse. I tried to clean up entries
that were listed as "downplayed", but they were simply added back
with slight alterations that the hosts were just explaining the loser's strengths. I think the page should focus on the fights themselves, and not rely solely on the post-fight wrap-up. At the very least, the page needs a clean-up.
openDarkest Hour - too soon?
- The 2020 pandemic of COVID-19, also known as novel coronavirus or simply coronavirus. While the Earth is no stranger to pandemics (with ebola virus, SARS, and swine flu all having taken place within a quarter of a century prior to coronavirus), this particular outbreak led to some of the most draconian anti-spread policies and measures ever, with many countries closing their borders, hospitals scrambling desperately to treat those who have been infected, many jurisdictions enacting self-quarantine/shelter-at-home orders (wherein people are not allowed to leave home unless it is for essential reasons such as work or shopping for supplies), people cleaning out store shelves to stock up on supplies (including toilet paper of all things), many mass-gathering events like Fan Conventions being either postponed or cancelled, schools and colleges closing, and hundreds of thousands of businesses either enacting work-from-home policies, limiting their services (restaurants, for example, barring customers from dining in) or closing up entirely (with all the layoffs that follow), all while the count of those afflicted and those dead from the virus continue to pile up. It may not be the deadliest pandemic yet, but it doesn't discount the massive changes in lifestyle as well as the severe economic damage that will inevitably follow; to put it this way, roadways that are infamous for traffic congestion (such as I-405 in Los Angeles) have become scarily empty (or paradise, for those who hate being stuck in an impromptu parking lot) even during what would otherwise be peak hours.
The "will inevitably follow" means it's speculative as opposed to have happened. We cut some other COVID-19 related stuff here
so there is precedent of it being used knee-jerk. Cut?
DarkestHour.Real Life is the sort of thing that's had a lot of overly reactionary, ROCEJ, and too soon to call examples. Thoughts on a 5 to 25 year waiting period? (I'd go with 25 as we need a lot of context to say if it really was darkest in retrospect.)
open Bloody excessive adverts on tvt Web Original
As of today, there's a banner advert popping up at the bottom of the page that wasn't there yesterday - this is new. Seems to be organised by something called "PROPER<>" and however often you hit the X to whack it down and get rid, it keeps coming back and appears every time you switch to a new page. Click on whatever's being advertised, you get "ad closed by Google". Is this new to tvtropes, and how do you get rid of it completely, as it's annoying and intrusive? I mean - ad at the top of the page, ad on the right hand side, no problem, tvt has to get revenue - but ads spilling over into the actual content of the page itself - not acceptible.
open Unfortunate Unfortunate Implications in YMMV/StevenUniverse Western Animation
Yesterday, Keshali added this to the Unfortunate Implications section of YMMV.Steven Universe:
- While Steven Universe is typically considered a trailblazer for LGBT representation, a lot of LGBT viewers and critics have pointed out its representation is actually pretty horrible
, from its relentless apologism of characters allegorical of homophobes (Homeworld, Uncle Andy) to the only actual LGBT characters being Discount Lesbians. To say nothing on the ambiguity of Bismuth’s racial coding.
- While Steven Universe is typically considered a trailblazer for LGBT representation, a lot of LGBT viewers and critics have pointed out its representation is actually pretty horrible
I have several problems with it. My write-up ended up being longer than intended, so TL;DR, the entry is built on blatantly false information from a website I'm not even sure counts as reputable, and I would like permission to remove it.
- This one's more of a general question, but does PopMatters even count as a good source? A quick look at the site shows it to be a generic news and music review site.
- Saying the Diamonds and Andy are given "relentless apologism" is blatantly untrue for the former and downright nonsensical for the latter. Whenever the Diamonds’ bigotry for Fusion (in this case used as an allegory for same-sex relationships) is brought up, the narrative and characters always treat it as a horrendous way of thinking, to the point that the climax for one of the penultimate episodes has the Crystal Gems fuse with each other in defiance of them and basically say "this is how we live our lives and we're not going to change that, so you can take your hate and shove it". And Andy... is never once portrayed as a homophobe. Old fashioned with a bit of Fantastic Racism, yeah, but he never once makes any comments that imply he's homophobic - in fact, when talking about how his family drifted apart after Greg left, he positively talks about his aunt and her partner (implied to be another woman), and later willingly attends a same-sex wedding with no fuss and has a good time at the reception.
- Regarding the Gems (or at least Ruby, Sapphire, and Pearl) being Discount Lesbians, Word of God - but not the show itself - confirmed that Gems are a sexless, genderless species that appear feminine and use she/her pronouns. Being genderless doesn't mean they can't be lesbians if they want to be, but I digress.
- As for Ruby and Sapphire's love for each other and Pearl's love for Rose being the only LGBT+ representation, this is also false. A lesbian couple and their son frequently appear in the background during the show, one episode has Pearl getting a crush on a human woman who reciprocates her advances, there are various moments where human characters blush or show attraction towards characters of the same gender (or characters they believe to be the same gender in Stevonnie's case) and all of Steven’s Fusions (in this context being an allegory for platonic and familial relationships) barring one use they/them pronouns, and Stevonnie is outright confirmed to be intersex and non-binary.
- Also, the bit about Bismuth and her possible racial coding feels really tacked on. Like, the entire entry talks about LGBT representation, and then randomly drops that sentence at the end without going into it more.
openUnforgivably rude edit reason
Marco Polo 250 gave the following reason to an edit
: "Then why even bring it up you stupid motherfucker"
If the example argued with itself, they could have easily pointed out how the example contradicts itself without being so rude. And it's also not the first time they've made such a rude edit, calling one troper
a "fantard" and that "no one gives a fuck about [their] opinion" (for which they were sent a rudeness notifier).
open Should JK Rowling's views on transgender people be mentioned on her Creator page?
As much as I hate to kick this hornet's nest, I'm honestly not sure where else to ask, since the discussion on the page itself seems to have died. On November 24th, Troper cerealking
deleted
a section of the article that mentions Rowling's views on transgender people with no edit reason given. I personally think it should be added to her biographical section (though not troped) as since 2019 she's been almost as (in)famous for her outspoken opposition to trans rights as for her other writing. Other creators such as Orson Scott Card who've become notorious for their reactionary views have it mentioned on their page, so why not Rowling?
openWeird Folder Titles
While randomly bouncing through the wiki, I ran across Asian Speekee Engrish. Everything seems fine, except every folder has switched R for L (instead of film-live action, it reads "Firm - Rive Action). The trope description is written normally, the examples are written normally (as far as I saw), just the folders have this.
I guess it's trying to be self demonstrating (except this is far more Japanese Ranguage, which is also normal), but it reads very badly, and not even consistently (Other is spelled Othel, which isn't even stereotypically correct).
Would it be okay to simply change the titles, or is there a process to go through?

Immortal Bear re-deleted
an entry I restored to Final Fantasy XV since their original deletion lacked an edit reason. They've provided an explanation after the fact, but most of it comes off as personal opinion and dislike of the Episode Ignis ending for reasons unrelated to what the original entry was about (that being that audience perception of its tone shifted due to Dot F), rather than an impartial collective observation of the reactions of the fandom at the time.
I've PM'd them as much, pointing out to them that they seem to take the YMMV label too literally as its actual focus is to describe audience responses to a work rather than to post personal opinions, that contrary to their belief the page is not trying to wage a war over which ending is objectively better, and I've also pointed out to them that though they claim the only people with a non-negative opinion are a Vocal Minority, other tropers have made the same observations as me regarding the state of the fandom at the time.
They seem to believe that because Dawn of the Future has an overall score of 9.0 on Good Reads (which often has a userbase culture distinct from the social media sites I frequent like Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit, or imageboards, and whose score doesn't always take into account things like the specific comparative tone of the ending), while Episode Ignis rates an average of 7.0 (the score again mostly focusing on things like gameplay rather than tone), that it invalidates everything I've said above, since I don't have hard sources on hand for every tweet or social media comment I've seen regarding people being softer on Episode Ignis's ending or disliking Dawn of the Future's approach.
I don't think that makes for an effective counterargument as YMMV does not mandate sources in general, and Dawn of the Future's perception outside of GR tends to attract a lot of negativity in its own right, not to mention disregarding said potential inherent selection bias (the people posting reviews were probably accepting enough of the controversies around the book to read through the whole thing). The reviews themselves on GR are variable with many positive scores criticizing the ending, and many reviews that praise the ending having mediocre scores on the whole.
None of the arguments they've provided contradict the initial point (that people's opinions of Episode Ignis became less hostile once Dawn of the Future was announced) of nor justify the deletion of the entry describing how people's hostility to a certain alternate ending seen as overly happy, dipped off once another, even happier ending showed up. Especially since the edit reason for deleting it is focused mostly on arguing why Alternate Ending #1 is badly written and any talk of audience reactions is more about pointing out that a portion of the audience exist who liked the other newer, even happier ending, even though the original entry never claimed otherwise or to speak for the entirety of the fandom.
Update: They are now accusing me of outright lying and being biased in favor of one ending for disputing their deletions, despite the major issues here having to do with a lack of, followed by questionably irrelevant removal reasons in what is a potential edit war. Update 2: They've taken it back after I explained myself further.
Edited by AlleyOop