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openIs this too much?
YMMV.Fate Apocrypha contains the following entry:
- Rooting for the Empire: The show eventually had the Red Faction becoming the main antagonist faction. But there are some that believed that they deserve to win:
- First, the members. Shirou Amakusa is a Well-Intentioned Extremist whose end goal could be said to be admirable, Karna being an overpowered yet honorable Servant, Achilles being a sociable bro and also overpowered Servant, Atalanta for her very pure wish (and the tragedy that comes with it) and tough attitude and adorable cat ears and tails, Shakespeare for his ham in just about everything leading to hilarity even when he's the antagonist, and Semiramis for being a classy, sexy dominating queen with oddly adorable elven ears. Even their deserter, Mordred, gets a LOT of love due to her overall badass daredevil attitude and accomplishment that fans may also want her and Shishigou to snatch the Grail. While Spartacus might not get very high levels of love due to being eliminated early and unfortunately being considered 'wasted potential', his craziness and meme factor in his short run was also welcomed. While the original masters except Shishigou were reduced to props without personality, it's not quite considered a damning factor and instead wins the favor of the camp that believed that the best part of Fate series are the Servants, not Masters.
- Next, the first half's members of the Black Faction. While we had Fiore and Caules as genuinely good Masters of the faction and Gordes' fault was just being a haughty jerk; it's worth noting that the leader, Darnic, was a former Nazi collaborator that consumed the souls of children (his way of dealing with Zouken might not be enough to cleanse those). And Celenike is a serial rapist with no redeeming features. And their last master, Reika, is a crazy serial killer who directs Jack the Ripper, the one responsible for the terror in London for a long timeNote Not to mention, Reika wasn't the intended master of Jack, her place was supposedly filled by magus (possibly under Darnic's command) Hyouma Sagara who attempted to use Reika as a sacrifice for the summoning that Jack killed him on spot and switched to Reika, who went crazy afterwards.. At first, this sets up for the show being Grey-and-Gray Morality to facilitate on rooting for the Red Faction.
- A minor point but Shirou was originally a servant to an Einzbern homunculous and was distraught when the latter was killed by Darnic. Anybody who was fond of the other Einzbern homunculi tend to be slightly biased in favor of Shirou.
- Next, the second half's members of the Black Faction. By that point, both Darnic and Celenike have been killed due to their own evil actions and Gordes had a change of heart, whereas both Sieg and Jeanne entered the faction, turning the Black Faction to be the more bonafide good guy team (Reika is eliminated in a latter time). This upsets people who were more into moral grayness and thought it was unfair that the Black Faction was cleaned up to be a less subtle "good guys" team, and it didn't help that Sieg was the show's biggest Base-Breaking Character, furthering the desire for people to cheer for the Red Faction which was considered to have more nuances.
- Finally, the Servants of the Black faction, while pretty good, have been much more of a mixed bag. Siegfried might be the one who would make the faction cool, but then he killed himself very early to revive Sieg. Chiron is overall pretty cool and his relations with Fiore was well-liked, but a lot thought of him as more of a supporting cast to Achilles' development. Vlad was cool on his run, but got the short end of the stick when Darnic forced him to turn into Dracula and then was quickly eliminated by Amakusa. Avicebron committed a despicable treachery and for this was struck down like a traitor that fans overall ignored him until he got a better showing in Fate/Grand Order. Jack's design put off a lot of fans and her role as a Serial Killer didn't help her. Frankenstein is a mixed bag overall. When Jeanne came in, people eventually got pissed with her budding romance with Sieg that she was considered ruined, leaving only Astolfo as the only cool Servant there, but even he had his own detractors.
I can see a perfectly-valid argument to be made for why people would want to root for the Red Faction, despite my own opinions on the matter. It's just... this feels too damn long with several long bullets being devoted to building up the same point, which is probably in defiance of Administrivia.Clear Concise Witty. Should I shorten this, and if yes, how?
openNaruto Unintentionally Unsympathetic Anime
Copying this from the Unintentionally Unsympathetic cleanup thread to give more people a chance to look at this.
- I would like to bring up the following entries from the Anime & Manga subpage of Unintentionally Unsympathetic to see which of these examples are valid or not. I'm not exactly familiar with the material so anyone who knows about the entries can help, thanks.
- Naruto:
- Sasuke Uchiha rapidly becomes this as the series progresses, at first his Freudian Excuse is very strong i.e. his brother Itachi murdered his parents and his entire clan and he naturally wants Revenge. However that excuse for all Sasuke’s misdeeds stretches thin when he antagonises his allies and dismisses the tragedies of those who have also lost their loved ones compared to his own trauma, Kakashi in particular highlights how selfish Sasuke is as he reveals to him that his loved ones (Obito and Rin) are already dead when Sasuke threatens them. After Sasuke's Face–Heel Turn it becomes even harder to sympathise with him as he betrays the village, actively tries to murder his friends, attacks the Kages and generally acts like a terrorist. It comes to the point where the whole cast (except for Naruto, Sakura and Ino) being prepared to bring Sasuke to justice is entirely justified and Naruto’s determination to redeem Sasuke is almost nonsensical. Also Sasuke being as Easily Forgiven in the Distant Finale conflicts matters more as the worst punishment he gets is being “somewhat exiled” from Konoha which is barely a slap on the wrist in the weight of his crimes. If Kakashi calls him out on his actions, isn't that intentional? If it is, cut.
- The backstory of the legendary "Salamander" Hanzo, the ninja against whom the Sannin won their titles by surviving a battle with him sets Hanzo up as a Well-Intentioned Extremist who lost sight of his goals but is honored in defeat by his rival as a man who strove for peace. By starting a lot of wars and turning his homeland into an unlivable hellhole that produced the most psychologically broken, defeated human beings in the series, just because he was arrogant enough to think his strength could unite the world. Most fans still consider Hanzo an utterly unsympathetic character whose violent death at Pain's hands was richly deserved, as his claim of good intentions didn't make him any less of a paranoid warmongering dictator. How is he supposed to be sympathetic?
- Sakura Haruno's angst over her Single-Target Sexuality - the aforementioned Sasuke - really makes her unsympathetic in many viewer’s eyes. Kishimoto claimed in interviews he tried to make her feelings for Sasuke as “realistic” as possible but that falls flat as in the manga she hasn’t even had a proper conversation with him, and when she did talk to him he just called her annoying (even after she told him she loved him and was willingly to ditch her peaceful life just to be with him) and knocked her out. After the Time Skip she mellows out... until Sasuke comes back into the story and she Took a Level in Dumbass trying to take Sasuke down herself and of course fails, requiring Kakashi and Naruto to save her ass from the boy she loves. The Final Battle and Distant Finale makes it worse as Sakura easily forgives Sasuke for trying to kill her multiple times, and she settles down and marries him having learned no lesson whatsoever. Also Kishimoto’s insistence that Sakura would be a “terrible woman” if she moved on from Sasuke didn’t help matters. Unsure on this one, if it is a valid example, it could use a rewrite to cut on the complaining.
- Tobi AKA Obito Uchiha. He's supposed to be a world-weary counterpart to the protagonist who has given up hope on any chance of world peace, preferring to put everyone in a Lotus-Eater Machine where they can escape all the problems of reality. Instead, many saw him as a whiny Manchild who can't get over Rin's death. Seems valid, though maybe revise the second sentence
- The way Utakata's master Harusame tries to extract the Tailed Beast from his disciple in an anime-only Filler is supposed to be seen as good intentions to the point that upon realizing this, Utakata eventually rebuilt the pedestal with him after accidentally killing him. The problem is, extracting the Bijuu from a Jinchuuriki will also directly kill the host, and with no indication of Utakata having trouble with his Bijuu, nor even knowing why his master does it in the first place against his will, it comes off as Harusame crossing the Moral Event Horizon with Utakata having every right to defy his master and killing him sounds more like a Kick The Son Of A Bitch than what is supposed to be. Maybe?
- Madara Uchiha, the Big Bad of the story. He’s apparently meant to be seen as someone who was forced to grow up in a ninja world full of war, and is just trying to create a utopia so his dreams of peace can become reality. This is all well and good, if you forget that the story shows that he and his former friend, Hashirama, managed to accomplish peace with the creation of the Hidden Leaf Village. Hell, Hashirama even tries to make him leader of that new village, but Madara refuses. It’s even harder for viewers to see him as someone who wants peace at any cost due to his obvious glee before every battle. Add that to fact that a part of his Start of Darkness is caused by him wanting to remake the world in his image, even screwing over his best friend to do so, and this makes him come across not as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but more of a hypocritical Jerkass. Unsure on this one
- Boruto Uzumaki, Naruto and Hinata's son. It's hard to sympathize with the boy who only wanted his father to come home when he is as bad (if not worse) than Naruto during his childhood. Unlike Naruto, Boruto doesn't have a crappy childhood but takes it all for granted and does the same antics his father used to do, all so his father can pay more attention to him. He keeps calling his father a bad parent, going as far as to wish he was dead and is unable to understand other people's feelings (such as complaining that his father is never around in front of Sarada, whose father was never with her for her whole life). And when Naruto finally spends some time with him, he ignores him and brushes away his affections. Maybe?
openIndexing Anthologies
Over on LGBT Representation in Media, I un-wikiworded Two Sentence Horror Stories as the series itself isn't an example of LGBT Representation (it's a horror anthology), but has several stories that do (and the recaps are indexed there correctly), and got a tap on the shoulder about that being a bad practice, so I just wanted to make sure!
openAdaptational tropes in Halo Live Action TV
Okay, we really need to do something about Adaptational Jerkass and Adaptational Villainy in the pages related to Halo (2022). Tropers have been adding these tropes to plot and character pages simply because the characters, especially the Master Chief himself, aren't as squeaky-clean and goody-two-shoes as their video game counterparts.
Yes, I get that the show is deliberately meant to be Darker and Edgier compared to the games, but those dark and edgy elements were always present in the games' background. They just didn't get enough screentime because the games focused less on the UNSC's unsavory actions and more on the heroic defense of humanity. Besides, despite his flaws, the UNSC's soldiers are still devoted to their duty and part of their character development is to form bonds with each other, just like the Chief and Cortana are doing throughout season 1.
But these are just one man's opinions. What do you think?
openSelf titled EP Music
I've been thinking of creating a page for a self titled EP by 100 gecs, but the issue is I'm not really sure where that should go since 100 gecs would already be taken by the duo. Would it be a good idea to name it 100 gecs (EP) and then use Wiki Word to turn it into "100 gecs (EP)" or is there a better solution for this?
Edited by GhilshopenNamespace move suggestion thread? Western Animation
Hello, I have another unrelated question. I couldn't find a thread regarding possible namespace move suggestions (because I have a few, related to the medium I tagged this query as). Perhaps I just looked straight over it, in that case I apologize.
EDIT: To clarify, I couldn't find one specifically for Western Animation, no matter where I looked... Could I start one myself, or is that considered a no-no? I don't wanna make any moves without consensus, and I only wanna start such a thread if other people agree with it.
Edited by LotteVopenFound a self rec (?)
I was browsing FanficRecs.Sonic The Hedgehog, when I noticed that a review for The CRONIES pointed out that the troper who recommended the fic (Apollo A) has a suspiciously similar name to the author (Apollo Alexandre). According to the review, the fic isn't very good either, with nobody being in character. Should I delete the rec or nah?
openEdit War on VisualNovel.YosugaNoSora Anime
Earlier Dezz Marie 95 added a What An Idiot example to the page. My first instinct was to remove it because What An Idiot is Flame Bait, but I stopped myself because the example seemed VERY familiar. Checking the page history I saw that Dezz Marie 95 had already added the exact same example three weeks ago
(with a small follow-up edit to add extra formatting), but the previous time it was under Too Dumb to Live. I was the one that removed it at the time, with my reason being that Too Dumb to Live is a death trope and so the example did not fit.
Since it is the exact same example, even if the trope name is different, I'd like permission to remove it again, just to be on the safe side and not run afoul of the Edit War rules.
openShould this example be restored?
An entry for Final Boss was removed here
, with the stated reason that the fight in the example is not major enough to count. I sent a message about this soon after, arguing that Final Boss is based on a fight being last, not necessarily major, and that "the Jinx confrontation that comes immediately after" is irrelevant since it wasn't a fight. Haven't heard anything back.
I hesitate to restore it myself since I did some editing on that entry, and didn't want to potentially edit war.
open Drafts that don’t get crosswicked
I can come up with a number of tropes that get launched from the TLP and don’t get crosswicked for a while, such as Single-Season Country, Poisoned Drink Drop, and many more. If nothing is done to these pages for a period of time, they’ll eventually fade to dust.
As someone who takes the time to crosswick pages after I launch them, I think it’s really annoying and unfair to people like me who put in the extra work to make sure the page is just like any others.
I didn’t go to the Projects: Short Term forum and start a cleanup thread because I don’t know if this is a big enough problem to warrant one. I think we should always PM the launcher and ask them to crosswick their page, and after so many warnings, action gets taken.
Is anyone else annoyed by this? I think, at the very least, you should be required to add the trope to Pages Needing Wicks if you’re not going to bother to crosswick them yourself.
Edited by MylesHenryVigilSropenAssistance with Character page
Because I don't want to start an edit war or anything, I figured I'd just come directly here for assistance. Troper "BoopFreak12" removed the tropes "Kids Are Cruel" and "Unreliable Narrator" from My Hero Academia - Dabi, and edited the entry for Dark and Troubled Past to place the blame solely on his (admittedly abusive) father Enji. No edit reason was listed for any of this. This in turns reads like they were trying to change anything that suggested Dabi wasn't purely a victim as a child, to the point of deleting entries that had canon basis. Should the entries be restored or not?
- Kids Are Cruel: Downplayed. At 13 years old, Toya was so obsessed with gaining validation from his father that he was rather indifferent at best, and insulting at worst, to his mother and siblings. This is best shown when he accuses his mother of being weak-willed and submissive to a man who deems him a failed creation, not caring about the pressure she routinely endured being a victim to Enji's abuse.
- Unreliable Narrator: Of his own public broadcast to discredit the heroes, and lampshaded as he shows a blood test to prove he's Endeavor's son when he notes that anything that comes from a known villain's mouth is already suspect. Toya claims that he was a Child by Rape and put under Training from Hell before being discarded and his siblings were other "failed" attempts, but Endeavor's own flashback remembering Toya's apparent death and circumstances beforehand show that Toya was eager to train and learn from Endeavor despite his handicap (and if anything, it was Endeavor who showed more concern for his well-being) plus the reveal Fuyumi was mutually conceived by himself and Rei to give Toya a sibling to be supported by as much as to try and get a child with a balance of their Quirks. He shows edited footage of Twice's death by Hawks' hands to paint the hero as a murderer rather than someone forced into a no-win scenario, and mentions that Hawks killed Best Jeanist (although Dabi genuinely did believe that Hawks killed Best Jeanist, and was just as shocked as anyone else when the No. 3 Hero showed up).
- BEFORE:
- Dark and Troubled Past: He came from a wealthy heroic family with his father being the Number Two hero, Endeavor. His father, wanting to surpass All Might at any cost, sired a son with Rei Todoroki who he planned to train as his successor and achieve his ultimate goal. However, Toya was born with a body that didn’t suit his Quirk, meaning that he would severely hurt himself if he continued to use it. Endeavor, out of concern, did everything he thought he could to dissuade Toya from becoming a hero, including having another successor. But instead, Endeavor’s efforts made Toya feel abandoned and left him with deep existential issues and long-term injuries from wanting to prove his worth to his father throughout his early childhood. Not long after, he caused a forest fire while training his Quirk in the mountains which may have resulted in nearly all of his body becoming disfigured with horrific burn scars while the majority of his family believed him to be dead. It is safe to say Toya didn't have an easy life.
- AFTER:
- Dark and Troubled Past: He came from a wealthy heroic family with his father being the Number Two hero, Endeavor. His father, wanting to surpass All Might at any cost, sired a son with Rei Todoroki who he planned to train as his successor and achieve his ultimate goal. However, Toya was born with a body that didn’t suit his Quirk, meaning that he would severely hurt himself if he continued to use it. Endeavor
, out of concern, did everything he thought he couldtried to dissuade Toya from becoming a hero,includingby having another successor. successor as well as running away from his responsibilties as a parent. But instead, instead of these efforts helping, Endeavor’seffortsdecisions made Toya feel abandoned and left him with deep existential issues and long-term injuries from wanting to prove his worth to his father throughout his early childhood. Not long after, he caused a forest fire while training his Quirk in the mountains which may have resulted in nearly all of his body becoming disfigured with horrific burn scars while the majority of his family believed him to be dead. It is safe to say Toya didn't have an easy life.
- Dark and Troubled Past: He came from a wealthy heroic family with his father being the Number Two hero, Endeavor. His father, wanting to surpass All Might at any cost, sired a son with Rei Todoroki who he planned to train as his successor and achieve his ultimate goal. However, Toya was born with a body that didn’t suit his Quirk, meaning that he would severely hurt himself if he continued to use it. Endeavor
openEvilIsCool.DemonSlayer Anime
I noticed in YMMV.Demon Slayer Kimetsu No Yaiba that the villains Doma and Muzan are listed under the trope Evil Is Cool. While you might be able to argue that Doma falls into this trope (I haven't read the manga), the reasons listed line up better with Love to Hate, which he's already listed as.
Muzan himself is another matter. Not only are his actions gratuitous and very excessive (including the way he acts towards his henchmen), he's also considered to be an Anti-Climax Boss due to the fight against him being thought of as less interesting than his subordinates due to him being Unskilled, but Strong.
Edited by 227someguyopenNamesTheSame Cleanup?
Many of the examples listed under Names The Same contradict what the entry says.
Common names and/or first names only, whereas the main page says they need to be identical first and last names.
- Marge: Ed Huddles' wife or Homer Simpson's wife.
- Marie is either a cute kitten or the blue-haired Kanker.
- Mariposa is the Spanish word for "butterfly", but it could also refer to either a butterfly fairy or Marco Diaz's baby sister.
- Margo is either the eldest of the Gru girls, a stuck-up stick bug, or one of Lynn's teammates.
- Not to be confused with Margot, a female mallard who attends Perfecto Prep or Margaux, a friend of Punky Brewster.
- Maurice is either Belle's father, King Julien's assistant, or Twister's real name.
- Mavis is either a diesel engine who works for the Ffarqhuar Quarry Company or Count Dracula's daughter.
- Spelled various ways, Terry/Terri/Teri could be either one half of a pair of homosexual news reportersnote , a hypochondriac paper bear, two monsters that share a body, one of the Mc Nulty brothers, one of a pair of twins attending Springfield Elementary, a cryogenics scientist with a flair for drama, a different news reporter with luscious red hair, or some sort of legally safe knockoff of an 80s horror character with miniature swords for fingers instead of knives.
Obvious literary and historical references, which are not coincidental.
- Balrog is most famously either the American Boxer in English or the Spanish Ninja in Japanse, as well as the anthropomorphic bar of soap. It's also one of the aliens in Insaniquarium. Then there's the Balrog, in several The Lord of the Rings-inspired games. Or the Grandmaster's flying battleship in the Strider games.
- The Bandersnatch. Recurring enemy and/or boss in the series? Or a one-armed B.O.W. lurking around Rockfort Island?
- You got Fatman, a mad bomber on rollerblades hell-bent on blowing up The Big Shell, and the Fat Man, a nuclear catapult weapon capable of launching miniature nukes. There's also the eponymous villain from Tongue of the Fatman. And then there is FATMAN from Armored Core.
Intentional examples of reusing character names, either by the creative staff or a franchise, violating the "coincidental" and "unrelated works" clauses in the header (and thus more fit for Production Throwback or Mythology Gag).
- Star Wars: The Clone Wars includes a Roonan senator named Aang, not to be confused with the Avatar. Likely not a coincidence, as The Clone Wars director Dave Filoni previously worked on Avatar.
- Oddly enough, the Transformers franchise does this within itself. Being named Prowl, Thrust, Snarl, Inferno, or one of any of the other most common names in the Cybertronian phone book, it doesn't mean you've got anything in common with anyone else with the same name.
- The Defenders: The first from 1961, the second from 2010. Both unrelated to each other apart from being on CBS.
- It's also the name of a Marvel comic book, and a Netflix series based on Marvel Comics.
Things that aren't character names (and are so generic they're not really noteworthy):
- Both Friday Night Lights and Degrassi have High School teams named Panthers with school colo(u)rs blue and gold. A classic Justified Trope since neither series uses Where the Hell Is Springfield? with one school in Texas and the other in Toronto.
- Both are named after real schools' teams: Odessa Permian HS and Paris District HS.
- In Star Trek, a replicator is a machine capable of creating (and recycling) objects. In Stargate SG-1, a replicator is an antagonistic self-replicating machine that propagates by ingesting the metals that make up civilizations and use them to create either blocks that form the bug-like version or smaller cells that compose the human-form "Replicators".
There's probably a dozen other issues, but the page too huge to go through since people keep adding meaningless bloat based on vague similarities. I think the page needs to be gutted and clear notability guidelines established.
Edited by WarriorsGateopen Possible High Crate sock again?
While monitoring the Future Works pages for High Crate socks I might have found another one but I can't say for certain because there haven't been many edits.
The very first edit of the brand new account borkfestsassage has an edit reason nearly identical to the editing style of HC, the third edit is mass commenting out ZCEs (not a problem by itself but not something you'd expect a new account to do), and it was created shortly after HC's last account got taken out. Is it HC?
(I know there isn't much to go on, I'm just kind of suspicious.)
Edited by themayorofsimpletonopenCorrected information because the character was lying?
So, in Critical Role: Campaign Three, Chetney is introduced as a Rogue, and it says so on his character card with stats (but those stats were inappropriate for a rogue, which did not escape fans' notice). Episode 11 reveals that he's not actually a rogue and had been lying to the party (and thus the meta information/the show itself had been lying to the players & viewers from minute one). What he is is a Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter - for the non-tabletop gaming tropers, that has nothing to do with a rogue -, which made his previously incongruous stats make sense.
Should the character then still be credited on the character sheet as Class: Rogue/[actual class], or should I simply delete the "Rogue" class and keep [actual class] spoilered, as the information was untrue in- and out of universe in the first place? The character's player flat out said "I'm not a rogue!" after the big reveal of his true class.
openPreventing an edit war on MythologyGag.NickelodeonAllStarBrawl Videogame
I've edited MythologyGag.Nickelodeon All Star Brawl on various occasions in the past few months to add examples, some of which include external links to help back them up. (Here
are
some instances of this.) On the 12th of this month, Pgj1997 removed several of these links
, explaining in an edit reason after the fact
that Weblinks Are Not Examples.
While I understand the policy, I made an effort to write all of my examples such that the connection between something in the game and the original series it's based on was evident from the text alone, which means that their edits seem like they're overreaching. Put another way, I tried to abide by what the page itself says:
- It is always preferable to use outside links as additional tools to clarify, enhance, or provide reference to a detailed example's content, rather than using them in place of the detailed example itself. In short, weblinks are to supplement context, but never substitute for context.
I don't want to risk edit warring, so I wanted to bring up the matter here to get others' opinions on this before taking any action.
openNo Title
Since this creator page was made by the person the page is about, how do we know they are even popular enough to have a page? What if they are just self-promoting? Can someone confirm that these fics are popular enough to deserve pages on TV Tropes (which were also made by Bolt DMC)?
openIdiot Plot misuse? (Just one moment?)
- Idiot Plot: The crux of the crossover itself hinges on the fact that Peter and Strange never bothered to properly communicate the details of the spell cast on Peter's memory. It's only thanks to an extremely convenient instance of Exact Words that the MCU Spider-Man isn't rendered helpless and alone immediately after it's cast. You'd expect either Peter or Strange to have considered the implications more than not at all before such a monumental thing was done.
Idiot Plot requires more than one character having more than one moment of separate idiocy. It might hit this criteria with Peter not thinking the ramifications through and Strange not explaining the spell sooner, but it's still one scene and technically the same one moment and idiocy of them not thinking it through.
Thoughts? Should Idiot Plot have a cleanup thread? (I recall examples being brought here a few times and questions over it's fundamentals.)

I know there's a cleanup thread about laconics, but I'm still waiting for a question I asked there ages ago to be answered and I'm worried that if I ask another question before then, it'd be "spamming".
I'm not talking about the "unabridged version" gags. Those are hilarious IMO and can stay. What I'm talking about is when works that aren't spinoffs have laconics that are basically just "Work X, but with Y".
This, I think, is a bit unclear because what if no one's ever seen the work being referenced?
A particularly blatant example is Laconic.Airplane is "Zero Hour played for laughs." I'd never heard of Zero Hour so I went to look at Laconic.Zero Hour (because I didn't want to spend ages reading about a work I wasn't interested in) and it was "Airplane! without the jokes.", which, to make a joke myself, doesn't fly in my opinion.
Edited by Unicorndance