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openFan Hater.
YMMV.K On has Fan Hater. The page itself mention it should only be put on ymmv page but the examples are in universe only.
open In this wiki, is Shout-Out the same as intertextuality?
Intertextuality is the intentional use of elements of other previous texts, which is what the Shout-Outs Index presents itself as. However, Shout-Out is normally conceived as a superficial reference to a work (one of its redirects is Allusion, for example, what is normally considered a different type of intertextuality from, let's say, Parodies, translations, Pastiches etc.). Is there space for a Definition-Only Page about intertext and its academic divisions? Or could the Shout-Outs Index be renamed (only the index, Shout-Out could stay as it is, even more so considering its popularity), get a redirect after Intertextual Tropes or something similar?
Edited by good-morningopenAgenda-Based Edit?
Wolfofthewest recently added a line
to Never a Self-Made Woman with the edit reason being complaining about it being sexist nonsense. Whether it's because they think the description or the trope itself is sexist doesn't matter, we don't care for editorializing of that nature.
openHarry Ellis Whitewashing/Edit War Avoidance Film
On Characters.Die Hard, mattc0tter re-added some whitewashing/ACI of Harry Ellis
that I previously deleted on account of the movie never showing Ellis to be anything other than a selfish prick. I do not want to get in an edit war over this, but I want to make very clear that having seen the film, Ellis' benevolent intentions are ACI at best.
openNo Title Western Animation
Hi!
I was reading the Recap for Transformers Animated S1 Ep 13 "Megatron Rising Part 1", & I don't know about anyone else, but the example for "Hypocrite" sounds a lot more like "Ungrateful Bastard", with Sari (in her quote), & then Bumblebee (defending her after she ran off), calling Optimus this.
Now, Optimus blowing up at his team for most, if not all, the same actions he himself took that stranded them on Earth to begin with, would be a better example for "Hypocrite".
openMe's A Crowd not looking so crowded
Just checked the subpage, MesACrowd.Film, the last time I saw that being several months ago and... what happened all the examples? The entire list has been neutered to two entries...
I checked the Edit reason and it seems like half of the stuff has been relocated to Self-Duplication. Which is fine, but a further line below claims the "other" half of the examples are moved to Bio Duplication, a trope that... uh, doesn't seem to exist.
Also, is there a rule for borderline page blanking without enquiring the rest of the forum? Or maybe I missed out a forum announcement or something?
EDIT: Also its just the film's subpage, I checked the Me's a Crowd pages for Anime, TV series, Video games, books, none of them seems edited
Edited by RobertTYLopenWork pages that act as genres
I brought this up a few days ago on the Roleplay cleanup thread
, but since the pages in question have a lot of inbounds I'd like to get a bit more input before doing anything with the pages.
Roleplay.Jumpchain and Fanfic.Planetarily Annihilating Self Insertion are pages that describe subgenres instead of specific works. Neither of them are in good enough shape that I feel comfortable putting them on the TPL (Jumpchain uses a lot of niche jargon that isn't explained and doesn't actually list any works of that subgenre, while Planetarily Annihilating Self Insertion is mostly extolling the virtues of a specific fanfic writer and is otherwise very bare of description).
Is it alright to cut the pages?
openMisuse on LethalJokeCharacter page Videogame
I saw a recent query about an edit on Lethal Joke Character, so I checked out the page to see what it was about.
I found that
- The trope description clearly says that this is a video game trope, and lists a number of related tropes that would apply to non-game contexts.
- Despite this, the example list has a entire section for "non-gaming examples", which is apparently large enough to be sub-divided into folders.
- One of the non-gaming folders is "real life". How can there be joke characters in real life?
This is of course rampant, systematized misuse, but what should we do about it? Does this warrant taking the trope to TRS (with the possibility of broadening the trope), or would a cleanup suffice? Unfortunately, I'm very pressed for time myself right now or I would already have started cleaning up, but I thought I'd at least report it.
Edited by GnomeTitanopenATT Inconsistent Suspension Glitch
If I try to make the first reply to an ATT thread, I get a pop up saying that my permissions for this area have been suspended. However, if my reply is the second or later, then it goes through fine. I have to admit it's spooked me a few times before I realized the pattern and made me wonder if I did something wrong.
This has been happening for a while, but I figured it wasn't worth reporting before due to how uncommon my particular situation is (and, with it, how unlikely to happen to anyone else it is), but the more it happens, the more annoying it gets.
And yes, it even happens on threads I create myself. I tested it just now.
Edited by BaffleBlendopenRecap pages
I've noticed that Khalil Goodman has made recap pages that don't list any tropes, or/and that only list the first part of the episode's plot, like this:
(Also, Khalil's descriptions are plagiarized from official plot summaries, but I've already sent a notifier about that just now.)
Edited by MichaelKatsuroopenPolicy on dead links?
When it comes to examples that contain external links (Important note: I'm not talking about "examples" that are ENTIRELY links, I know those should just be cut), I'm finding that Link Rot is hitting this site more and more with time due to how long we've been around.
Now, normally I head to the Wayback Machine to necromance dead links. But that's not always possible; like, an example under Astonishingly Appropriate Interruption formerly had a link to a Smosh article that couldn't be restored. The example was still valid without the link, so I took out the link and kept the example, but the additional information it was there to give and cite was lost, which is something I still found unfortunate.
How often does this issue really come up? And how do we root around for where they lay, just manually clicking on each? Is there already a dedicated cleanup effort to finding dead links? (I can't access the forums to check for myself.)
openEdit war
I think there's a minor edit war on the YMMV page
for Wuthering Heights.
Bennings
added a Common Knowledge entry about how it's "known" that all the characters are awful but only about half of them really are. (Never read the book myself, don't know anything about this.)
Bennings listed a few of these "awful" characters. caringguy
added a character named Hareton to the list, arguing he should be listed as awful if the character Nelly is, but Bennings deleted the addition with "No way in hell I'm giving you Hareton."
openFilm/TheBatman concerning edits Film
Edit: Was tired when I wrote this this morning, edited to explain their edits.
Jeyeraj has some concerning edits on Film.The Batman 2022 and Characters.The Batman 2022. In the movie Selina decries that Rich Privileged White guys are the ones running Gotham. I'm not gonna say that black people can't be racist against white people (I don't like that prejudice plus power definition outside of academia), but this really doesn't feel like that. In the universe of the movie, that's an objective fact, most of the people in power are privileged white people. I'd need more to say she's racist towards white people. He insinuates in his edits that this makes her a bigot. Finally he insinuated that the Riddlers were occupy wall-streetesque, when I felt they were more QANON ajacent..
I just also found an edit where he posted about the Videogame.Ready Or Not and Kotaku's criticism of the games school shooting level. He talks more about the article than the game itself in the edit, which is trivia at best. His criticism of the article definitely seems to be political in nature.
There's also this edit on Film.Black Widow: %%"Their" or spoilering the pronouns would give away the reveal that Taskmaster isn't a man, as the film presents her until the reveal.%% (They are talking about taskmaster). And in that edit they changed the pronouns of the example from "their" back to "his". Taskmaster in the film is a women. I felt like it was perfectly valid to use "their" pronouns to disguise the gender.
I definitely feel like he's editing with an agenda.
Edited by jjjj2openOveruse of capitalized letters, bold and italics
Hello everyone,
Just to be sure, what is the actual policy regarding the use of capitalized letters, bold and italics? I encountered a troper who seems to have an habit of adding examples with a lot of those, which leads to entries where you suddenly HAVE SENTENCES THAT READ LIKE THAT. Which is fine in some instances (like Self-Demonstrating Article of characters), but feels like bad wiki writing everywhere else. As far as I know, the occasional italics or bolding is fine to highlight something, but I fear we may have an issue when it becomes an habit (and there is no specified Issue Helper reason dedicated to that as far as I know).
Edited by NonoRobotopenWonk/complaining?
WarriorsGate added this to WesternAnimation.My Little Pony Equestria Girls:
- Contrived Coincidence: The films and specials are an awkward mix of supernatural high school thriller and wacky sitcom, with plot conveniences (Pinkie Pie spontaneously guessing Twilight's backstory in the first movie; the fake-out with the White Void Room in Rollercoaster of Friendship) that work as jokes in a comedy but do not work as legitimate plot developments in a story that takes itself seriously, leaving the sub-franchise in some nebulous void between the two.
This is largely identical to an Uncertain Audience example they added but was cut per cleanup
(entry was just about attempt to appeal to one audience poorly, UA is attempts to appeal to multiple audiences that undercut each other). This one is definitely too complainy for a non-YMMV.
It's inaccurate in that the stated examples are Played for Laughs (EG has enough legit dramatic moments you can tell the difference) and EG does not take itself more seriously than it's parent series Friendship is Magic (EG's target audiences is just a bit older that FIM's prepubescent, EG's writers stated how it would be different if it was targeting more mature audiences). Further discussion involves debating semantics about how "serious" and "maturity" are used/apply.
This is looking enough like wonk I'm bringing here.
open Bad Grammar, Punctuation Issues, Trope Shoehorns, Edit Warring...
... and all of the above.
So, recently stumbled across Manga.Police In A Pod, a page made exclusively by one X-FALCONER
, a relatively new guy whose edits consist mostly of editing said page...
Grammar, spelling and punctuation issues are one thing:
- "Fuji have this with Kawaii with multiple characte note that she treat her nicely compared with how she treat others"...
- Jaywalking Will Ruin Your Life: downplayed and not jaywalking but in one case Kawaii interrogate a teen that stole a bike and made her confess the girl admitted that these incident will probably make her lose her scholarship in a university at Tokyo, but she is confident that she can go there through other means. — This is lifted wholesale from the page btw, I didn't change a single thing
- Yakuza: Minor nuisances in the manga. Seiji and Takeshi at one point get to a shouting match with them after a wakashu throws away a lit cigarette onto the street. — What does this have to do with the Japanese gang syndicate called the Yakuza again?
- Irony: While Kawaii just met Yamada and Minamoto through Fuji , is shown later they found her nicer and easier to get along than Fuji who is a Jerk With The Heart Of Gold. — How is this Irony? Also, yes, they didn't double-bracket the words "irony" so it's not bluelinked.
But there's also blatant Redlinked typos that the user neglected to fix (Big Sister Instict? Jerk With The Heart Of Gold? Abusive Mother?)
... Shoehorning Tropes that doesn't fit:
- Running Gag: During the anime Kawaii and running specifically her tendency to run and the monologues she has complaining about this, thanks to the anime adapting the early chapters where Kawaii had to run a lot — I don't think that's what Running Gag means?
- Cop Killer: While not a killer White Angel is a driver that Hit and Run Sakura an Officer of the station leaving her in a wheelchair for years he is later revealed to be Kimura a father who abandoned his family whose daughter is a cop in another prefecture, the reason why he was fixated on sakura was because she looked similar to her daughter but it wasn't intentional he just dozed off after he had too many all nighter. — The entry argues with itself, and is therefore a shoehorn. Also grammar in sentences.
- Dramatic Shattering: An apartment window is busted by Fuji with her issued baton when she and some officers were conducting a wellness check and the tenant wasn't answering the door (plus the tenant had a previous meeting with the police due to concerns that he's been drinking). — The trope Dramatic Shattering means "drops and breaks an object in shock". This entry is "Breaking A Glass Window With A Baton", which... isn't a trope that exists as far as I remember.
And an 18-bulleted-point Surprisingly Realistic Outcome entry with really, really bad shoehorns
- Surprisingly Realistic Outcome: One of the manga's main strengths with reader and critics is that Miko Yasu write with a lot of realism compared to other manga principally based on her own experience as a police officer.
- While everyone treat Kawai as The Ditz in the beginning, officer of others precints say that Kawaii actually is above average as a rookie, being someone who listen to her superiors advices and use them, follow orders and have generally a good will to work, is just that they compare her to Fuji who is The Ace.
- In a case of an Abusive Mother, who hurt her 3 year old child, instead of being a sadistic Child Hater, the woman was a teenage mom whose family kicked out and have her husband working aboard,and she was overstressed, after she found herself incredibly guilty of that, but still they took her daughter away from her, much to both sadness because they loved each other, Kawai felt incredibly guilty for this thinking that if she looked deeper on the case they would still be together, she and Kana outright admitted that Kid will probably hate Kawaii, but Kana admitted there was nothing she could do because she was just a grunt.
- Because they tend to be Hot-Blooded their superior dont really like Yamada and Minamoto, while they don't dislike them they outright said that they prefer Makitaka and Nasu who meanwhile doesn't have any great skill (Makitaka is outright said to be the weakest officer in all the station) they are dilligent and don't make dumb mistakes
- Just because someone passed Training from Hell doesn't mean they are going to become great athletes, Kawai passed the police academy training which according to the manga is capable of making men cry, but she doesnt show any Charles Atlas Superpower, actually there are a lot of times she is shown struggling in police work.
- Most officers spend their entire career with little to no experience in using their guns outside of target practice. If one is used to shoot a suspect, the officer/s's actions are to be scrutinized very carefully, especially since Japan has strict anti-gun laws.
- Because their work schedule, and Japan sexist tendencies toward male oriented jobs, is pretty common for policewoman to marry policemen until now all married (Ex)and current policewoman have been married to other officers.
- When officers are involved in strong traumatic incidents, they are often told to take time off or else they cannot function mentally in the field.
- Police officers, just like other first responders, don't have the luxury of having a social life or enjoy holidays because they need to be ready in case of an emergency or they need to work to ensure others can enjoy their holidays by covering their shift.
- Because of their past antics like breaking a car and losing his Badge, the inspectors were extremely vigilant to Minamoto and Yamada.
- When Kawaii got hit by a car but was fine nonetheless Fuji made her work until an ambulance come to check her, this was later revealed to be a facade she was way more affected than she showed with Minamoto having to console her later.
- In one chapter the main duo, had to deal with a lot of animal Jinx like subduing a Dog, making a cow move and deal with a monkey, like they explain they haven't being trained to this kind of stuff so they had a lot of trouble in this, in the cow case Seiji had to do it because he was raised by a police father in the countryside had experience with cows.
- Kana cuts corners and used inquiry to pass her training from the police academy and she is shorter than the minimum height required to be a cop in the first place, making her pretty bad when she need to do something physical.
Takeshi Yamada: [about Makitaka and Kana subding a large female suspect] Sgt. Minamoto, allow me to say something as their peer. Makitaka-san is the type of person you regret doing exercise with and Kana got through the academy solely through trickery. Their inability to do anything physical is laughable.- While Fuji may be The Ace, Yamada reveals she also had her struggles when she was rookie, like when a case had to be shut down for lack of evidence and she apologized endlessly to the victim or when the victim couldn't stand the investigation and decided to suspend the investigation.
- In most cop shows the one who hurt or kill an officer tend to be extremely dangerous criminals like Crime lords or Serial killers , in this case Kimura the criminal who runned over Sakura, was simply a man who was overworked and dozed off and because of his debts tended to lay low, also the only reason why he wasn´t caught was because of the rain all evidence was erased and he got rid of the truck the principal element Fuji used to investigate the case
- After seeing Sakura accident ,her instructor and superior Onigawara entered in a state of shock, this the bad weather, and her not drinking any liquids culminated on her suffering a miscarriage, after that she never went back to police work.
- Just like in Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Fuji explain that the only reason officers like her and Kawaii could work there was because older Policewomen like Yokoi or Onigawara trailblazed during a time where the police was more sexist, and made things easier to younger officers.
- Linked with above, policewomen have to work harder than his male peers so they don't hurt the image of all the policewoman.
- Officer need to have a crime before they can act, until then ,they can only watch or warn people.
- Later in the manga, it's revealed that Kawai distanced herself a little from her family. It turns out her family lives 2 hours away and because of her work schedule, she can't come to visit very often. She's the first police officer in her family and because of a mix of police confidentiality and Mai not wanting to worry them, Mai doesn't really talk about her job.
... which the discussion thread gave me the "OK" to delete after I did a consultation / analysis
...
(Cue Drumroll For War... Edit War)
... only for FALCONER to re-add the whole thing, wholesale (both of them!
), with his excuse amounting to "I disagree with the deletion reasons so I'm adding everything back without even bothering to correct the grammar issues
"
…given the cleanup thread disagrees with him, me re-deleting would constitute as an Edit War. We really don't want that to happen.
They also made Characters.Police In A Pod, which is the character page for the show, I guess they're a fan. But then you see shoehorns like this ( I haven't analyzed it thoroughly, that page is huge)
- Meaningful Name: Fuji is a reference to Mt. Fuji. — Isn't Fuji a super-common Japanese name?
- Meaningful Name: Kawai is cute. — Actually, "Kawai" is a Japanese word that means "Confluence". Also sounds like character gushing.
- Berserk Button: Temporarily after seeing a baby corpse, she got a button with people who downplay security measures specially with kids, a pep talk with Miyahara work this out. — I don't think that's what Berserk Button means? This entry is just "X freaks out after seeing a dead baby"...
- Fair Cop: In a more cute, than sexy way but Kawai is considered quite cute with even Minamoto (who see policewoman as apes) telling her that she is cute, once one of her classmate outright admitted than she is jealous of Kawaii boobs and figure. — "More cute than sexy" — wait, what?
- Brutal Honesty: a big part of the character specially in a Deadpan Snarker way — "X is this" violation, also grammar and lack of punctuations.
- Cool Big Sis: Sometime she gives this feeling with Kawai — "X is this" violation, also grammar and lack of punctuations.
- Fair Cop: She constantly gets compliments for her looks. — What?
There's also
- violation of
Repair, Don't Respond on Recap.The Owl House S 1 E 11 Senses And Insensitivity note since deleted by another user
- Natter
on Recap.What If S 1 E 7 What If Thor Were An Only Child note since deleted by another user
- more grammar stuff and borderline RDR
on Characters.Avatar The Last Airbender The Fire Nation Royal Family
- this edit
to Characters.Avatar The Last Airbender Other Characters and this edit to
Recap.The Simpsons S 21 E 13 The Color Yellow having similar grammar and capitalization issues as the Police Anime page linked above.
- violation of
EDIT: Apologies for the bolding, I know there are guys who consider this an eyesore. It's just, you know, for pointing stuff out
Edited by RobertTYLopenQuestionable edits
Someone needs to check up on the troper Pakicetidae, as while they appear to have made a number of legit edits, some of their other edits are questionable:
- From here
and below, they made strange edits to Fan Dumb (changing category names to more politically-charged ones, and I think they tried to add a picture)
- Similar edits
to Hate Dumb
- An arbitrary name change
to a hypothetical example
- Added a mention of themself
to an example that already violated This Troper (the offending parts have since been deleted)
At the very least, the first two seem to violate the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment, and they didn't give reasons for any of their edits. Were those name changes ever discussed anywhere, and if not, are they free to get reverted?
openJohn Byrne's Superman = Audience-Alienating Era Print Comic
Ok, I gotta ask, can John Byrne's Superman, especially The Man of Steel be considered an Audience-Alienating Era?
First of, The Man of Steel was initially listed in the YMMV section as Condemned by History by the following argument: "Back in 1986, Man of Steel sold extremely well and was hailed as the story which modernized and made Superman good and fresh again thanks to scraping off the Silver Age "silliness". Over time, though, Byrne's vision was gradually rejected and ultimately retconned out of continuity. Most of his contributions (the birthing matrix, the unfeeling Krypton...) and interpretations (Superman being the only son of Krypton who rejects his immigrant heritage and declares to be fully American...) were eventually deemed mistakes and expunged from the mythos, whereas most of Silver Age lore and characters (Supergirl, Krypto, the Phantom Zone and its inmates, the Fortress of Solitude...), which he attempted to write off because of their alleged childishness and irrelevance, have been brought back. Nowadays, Man of Steel is considered a dated origin which has aged badly (especially compared to the Batman and Wonder Woman's reboots), and not even Post-Crisis Superman fans seem to want it back., but was later removed
.
Secondly, John Byrne's run itself is listed in the The DCU's section
for Audience-Alienating Era under the following argument: "Although John Byrne's 80's Superman's run got praise and good sales back in the day, it also gained many vocal detractors who decried the erasure of many classic characters and concepts, the loss of the whimsical tone and the colorful high sci-fi/fantasy concepts, the diminishing of Superman's complex dual identity, the messing-up of the Legion of Super-Heroes, the unfortunate message that "immigrants should forget their origins", the shoehorning and mishandling of the New Gods, the blatant misogyny of some stories (Big Barda being mind-controlled, raped and hypnotized into being a porno actress comes to mind), and the long-term damage done to the mythos caused by Byrne eliminating anything not protected by his Golden Age nostalgia. History -and DC, who would go to undo most of what Byrne did- ended up siding with them, and nowadays that period is disliked and disregarded by everybody but Byrne diehards."
An era can only be considered as Audience-Alienating if... 1. the era is a critical and financial disappointment even during the time of release 2. any changes the era brings to the franchise are removed by later stories 3. any time the era is referenced to by later stories, it's almost always in a negative manner.
I bring this up because a lot of examples in AAE come off as blatant editorializing. What do you think?
open Should this be a page?
Should Creator.Embracer Group exist? They're not really a creator, they just own a bunch of creators. Also, the description is copied from a previous revision of Creator.THQ Nordic (some of the text is also in the current version), and the page itself mostly consists of red links.

So Troper Desert Dragon put up a Designated Hero entry on the YMMV page of Marvel'´s runaways. I deleted it because I don't really think that applies. Not just because of my own opinion (what he thinks), but because pretty much every Runaway in that season has done their own share of morally ambiguous things that the rest of the group disagreed with (heck, Nico even killed several people) and is called out in-universe, respectively. Alex is not singled out as in any way particularly bad.
The troper however put it back up. How should we proceed?
(Ironically, a similar topic was started over myself recently^^)
Edited by Forenperser