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openTitles with Descriptions, Style of Index Pages and Long-Lasting Anxiety
On 23rd Nov '16, at Main/Manhua, I deleted the descriptions of every single entry on the page, leaving behind only the titles of the works, citing "We can save the descriptions for the individual pages; this page is just for indexing." I was motivated by how most of the work index pages lack these information and still function alright despite so, making me think that they are unneeded.
The incident prompted a PM discussion between me and fellow editor Mercy, and there was also an ATT thread here started by Mercy that you can find by searching for "Wuz" concerning the situation. (I don't know how to link an ATT thread)
The ATT thread "concluded" that due to how inconsistent foreign-language indexes are, at least original language titles should be restored, and the rest should stay as is.
The case may have ended, but the anxiety never died, and it came back again. Around a month ago, I found this: Web Serial Novel. The page is literally filled with entries that have descriptions going alongside the titles and the occasional description-less title-only entry, and once again I became anxious over this issue again as I debated with myself if I did the right thing in removing all the descriptions, or if I really was being brash in editing without discussing. (for the record, I am anxious over a lot of things, and this is just one of them)
Looking through Administirivia, I didn't really see a style guide on how should index pages be written. Should they have descriptions going alongside the titles? Or are they cluttering the page and making things hard to look through? Those are my questions.
Edited by WuzopenQuestions regarding cleanup efforts.
I have a few questions. I just started a ST Projects thread (The only other Projects thread I started was for the Pokemon Anime's YMMV page before this) and I want to make sure the action itself didn't violate any rules, as well as a sandbox page relevant to this.
- Is there any procedure for making threads on both boards? Unlike TRS or IP the threads don't start locked, but I wanted to know if they need mod permission or other requirements first (The sticky on the STP board mentioned something about discussion form elsewhere, such as ATT. I think that requirement is covered covered by this query
)
- As the cleanup is focused on reorganization, I want to know a few things related to that. Mainly to see if 1 Sandbox/ page is enough for the cleanup.
- Is there a way to view how many characters are in a given page?
- What is the maximum amount of characters a page can hold before becoming a problem? (I think its 400000 max)
openFake Star Wars Spoilers
So there's been a bit of a problem in the Star Wars Episode VIII thread with people posting unsubstantiated plot leaks for the movie. Sometimes they ask permission before posting them, sometimes they just post them. Apparently these leaks have been circulating Reddit. Is it possible to do anything about this? It is, at the very least, making myself and another thread regular (whom I discussed the matter with via PM before coming here) pretty uncomfortable.
openArthur Western Animation
WJTaylor4, who frequently edits the YMMV.Arthur page really, really, really hates D.W. (and calls Arthur's parents by their first names even though they're rarely said in-show). Other oddities include a 'fandom rivalry' segment that's just fans of one thing picking on other fans. Plus grammar/spelling errors.
"Creator's Pet: Jane and David; being an educational 'toon, they're the "large and in charge" parents with no one calling them out for letting D.W. torment Arthur most of the time."
Fandom Rivalry: Ever since the rights to producing the show changed hands from Cookie Jar to Nine Story, the bronies have been picking on it and its fans. It appears that there are two groups of haters here- one being bitter about how Marc Brown chose to terminate Cookie Jar's rights and grant the rights to Nine Story instead of transferring the production rights to DHX (which is incidentally the company behind Fi M) when DHX bought up Cookie Jar, and another just sees Arthur as yet another show competing with Fi M for awards. It's easy to weed them out: those who dismiss Arthur for "not being as good since it changed production companies" fall into the former, while those that're downright condescending to the show (saying things like "You're/They're still making the show?" in a sarcastic tone) belong to the latter. "
" D.W.'s constant screaming and whining when getting on Arthur's case or when she's demanding something from others tends to get old pretty fast. D.W.'s voice in general even when she's not whining. "
"D.W. getting punched by Arthur and latere getting a swing smashed into her face, largely due to her being such an unlikable brat."
" D.W. throws a tremendous tantrum in "Arthur's Perfect Christmas" when she doesn't get the toy she wanted for Christmas, and spends several minutes screaming. It's honestly quite embarrassing especially since Dave and Jane don't do anything to stop their daughter. "
" The Tibble Twins are basically gender bender versions of D.W. and like D.W. they have no redeeming qualitiesJ who never get punished, and they're constantly roughhousing or arguing with each other."
" Take That, Scrappy!: DW finally getting punched out by Arthur in "Arthur's Big Hit". Also DW getting her face smashed in with swings by the Tibble twins in Attack of the Turbo Tibbles. "
" Unintentionally Unsympathetic: DW, in "Arthur's Big Hit" and in many, many others. Even in the episodes where she has some justifiable reason for being bratty, she tends to take it so far that it's impossible to sympathize with her. This is not made better by all the times she doesn't have an excuse, and just felt like being irritating - it makes her seem less like she's acting up because of the issue at hand and more like her already-horrible behavior is just being exacerbated by said issue. More than a few viewers cheered when the Tibble twins hit D.W. in the face with their swings in "Attack of the Turbo Tibbles", if only because she finally suffered some Laser-Guided Karma for all the crap she had pulled previously in the series. A number of viewers also cheered when Arthur punched D.W. for harassing him and then trashing his model plane in the aforementioned Arthur's Big Hit where in addition to being her usual annoying self she was stupid enough to think the model was a toy that could fly. It really says a lot for what a repulsive character DW is that even when she's attacked by a pair twins who are basically male versions of her the viewers actually cheer for the boys to rough her up. It also says a lot for just how lacking the boys are in redeeming qualities that their high point in the series is physically attacking a young girl the audience is expected to sympathize with but is so unlikable and repulsive that the boys violent actions against her are cheered and relished by the audience instead of being viewed as reprehensible."
Edited by lalalei2001openSmalltime's refusal to learn the rules
In Canon Discontinuity, smalltime
added a misindented Inspector Gadget example under another. I fixed the issue and sent an Issue Helper to the troper, as the only wrong thing here was the misindentation. The added example itself had nothing wrong. But they reacted to this by just removing their added example, thus leaving the original example alone and misindented (because they didn't revert the extra asterisk I had added to it to have it leveled alongside the other), and then sent me a reply full of Angrish. Since then, it's been a very stressful conversation between the two in which I tried to explain to them the origin of the problem and they labeled the whole Indentation guideline as "gibberish", plus asking me to stop "harassing" them. Even after I tried to explain in bigger detail about the indentation thing, the reply was once again the same: "[Still to me] gibberish".
Very sadly, the troper is consciously refusing to cooperate and I'm concerned that they will just ignore the problem in the future. Their poor attitude is only making my genuine efforts to help them even more futile.
Edited by MyFinalEditsopenClarification On This Live Action TV
From Mean Character Nice Actor Live Action TV
- Mark Pellegrino has pretty much built his career on playing assholes that include abusive husbands, Jacob and Lucifer. In real life, he is a devout christian and family man who comes across as very sweet, relaxed, funny and very appreciative of fans.
But from Wikipedia:
- Pellegrino was born in Los Angeles, California. He is an adherent of Objectivism, a philosophy created by Russian-American writer Ayn Rand.[4] Pellegrino does not identify as a libertarian. Though he considers this description to be the closest to his political views, he considers libertarianism to be an anarchist political ideology and has distanced himself from this ideology, describing himself solely as an Objectivist, stating that he sees a place for government in society.[5][6][7][8] He has described his political views, instead, as classical liberalism,[9] and has also described himself as a radical capitalist.[6] He is married to Tracy Aziz and is the stepfather of her daughter Tess.[10]
- Pellegrino is an atheist.[11]
Did someone pull the bit about him being a Christian out of their ass, or has renounced faith at some point?
Edited by shoboniopenDarkness Induced Audience Apathy Misuse?
From DarknessInducedAudienceApathy.Video Games:
- Overwatch suffers from a variant of this effect. Most of the characters are genuinely good, likable people, and the story places a lot of emphasis on the importance of hope and heroism in a troubled world. But if you set all that aside and examine the story for what it actually is, you'll find something far more grim than the bright colors and fun characters would suggest. The game needed its own Woobie page before it was even six months old. Many of the heroes are defined by the ways in which they’ve failed, and most of them have made no progress toward their goals, and not for lack of trying, either. The villains are likewise not entirely unsympathetic, but they're also directly and unrepentantly responsible for a lot of the world's problems, and they're not doing anything to helpnote Well, maybe except for one, who might be covertly trying to expose the Greater-Scope Villain, but even she is an Unreliable Narrator who has exhibited some sociopathic traits and likely isn't acting out of the goodness of her heart. The crux of the problem is that the story initiated itself under pretty dire circumstances, with the titular organization in ruins while its enemies remain at large. The plot could be summarized as "Talon enacts its agenda, and Overwatch rises from its ashes to defend the world", but the glacial rate of progression means the lore has stalled in the "Talon enacts its agenda" stage, leaving the main conflict to become increasingly lopsided as the heroes continue to struggle with no appreciable payoff while some of their most noteworthy accomplishments are outright undone by later developments. Keeping the torch lit during dark times is one of the narrative's core themes, but when the darkness starts eating the torch, it's easy to feel like you're just being strung along.
The pointing out sympathetic characters exist and hope as a theme seem to argue with itself, and most of the issue seems to be Arc Fatigue and less this trope. Cut?
openThe Simpsons Memetic Mutation Cleanup Western Animation
I'm looking at The Simpsons and I'm seeing that while all of the entries have notes next to them now, they still mostly consist of quotes with the explanation describing where they came from, rather than how they're actually memeworthy. I'm not knowledgeable enough about the show in detail to clean it up myself, unfortunately. I can verify from my own experience as a non-fan which quotes are definitely memeworthy, however.
Edited by AlleyOopopenDo we have a project to disambig works?
I noticed that that several Tropers were asking about making work pages of the same title and namespace into disambig pages like Malady's one here
or Crossover-Enthusiast's here
and I was wondering if there is project for that sort of thing like the Franchise Namespace Correction where Tropers can add pages to moved and discuss what needed to be done
A quick check and I can only find the Changing Main redirects into Disambigs....
forum thread
I have done a few myself but I know of some more that might nee changing like Max Steel/Max Steel (2013), The Secret Life of Walter Mitty/The Secret Life of Walter Mitty (1947), Dillinger/Dillinger (1945)
openSome anvils needed to be dropped Western Animation
Are these examples on the YMMV.Jem page examples of Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped? The Jem pages in general have a lot of Weasel Words.
"**In Video Wars, Video explains that her career as a filmmaker is quite difficult, since she has to constantly work hard at maintaining her success. Despite everything, she doesn't give up on it and loves her work. This wasn't presented in an over-the-top, ridiculous sort of aesop, nor was it even the main message of the episode, but it acts as a nice way to tell kids that having careers and jobs are never easy, but if you love what you do and keep at it, it's all worth it. The show itself seems to be an example of that message; disregarding the animation, the staff obviously put a lot of effort into the characters and gave them distinct personalities, as well as working hard on the writing, music and fashion (seriously, though; how often do you see cartoon characters in different outfits? And if so, how many are so intricately designed?)
"**With the exception of Eric Raymond, Techrat, and Zipper, the writers made it a point that neither the Misfits or the Stingers were pure evil and had their soft sides (especially Stormer), and that there was a reason why they were like that. The Holograms weren't pure and had their flaws. This seems to say that people have multiple aspects to their personalities, and that even so-called perfect people have their hang-ups, and the worst offender might not be so bad given the chance. "
Edited by lalalei2001openTroping Music Videos Music
Should tropes that occur in music videos (but not the song itself) still be listed in the Music section of a trope page?
openKings Quest 2015 Videogame
There are huuuuuuuuge, nattery, too-detailed lists on King's Quest (2015) pages to the point that deleting them frees up a ton of room, and every reference to the old games is added to the page as they happen. Plus there's losing sight of the original trope or not fitting the trope.
Examples include under Chaos Architecture, Broad Strokes, Continuity Nod, Deconstruction, and Unreliable Narrator. and a mistaken trivia entry for Alternate Continuity used to have a terrifyingly long list until I deleted it when putting it back on the main page. I can add it back if you guys want.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=VideoGame.KingsQuest2015
Should I delete the lengthy entries entirely while giving a generalized example, IE "* Continuity Nod: There's lots of name drops and nods to material from the classic games, and even The King's Quest Companions, thrown in as fun references for old time fans who might be keeping track. Some of these nods include 'alternate' visual adaptations of the box art from the original series, while others include specific creatures and events that are non-canon in this series." or move them to a new page?
EDIT: These entries on the YMMV page are suspect too.
" Protagonist-Centered Morality: The game falls into this with the way Graham treats his two grandchildren. Graham is the hero, so anything he does is more or less indicated to be okay - including the fact that he clearly favors his granddaughter Gwen over his grandson Gart, to the point that he names her his heir, making her Queen of Daventry when he dies. This is despite Gart being the older grandchild, and the one who actually lives in Daventry with his grandfather. Gart himself is given a few minor character flaws, while Gwen isn't shown to have any; she becomes the player character in the epilogue of the game, meaning that she has apparently also inherited Graham's Protagonist Centered Morality. "
"Vocal Minority: When the first chapter was released, the reaction was positive for the most part, but those who didn't like it were much louder than those who did.
- There are/were people who believe it was made with money stolen from the Hiveswap Kickstarter and were very displeased with this. There's no proof as far as we know; Andrew Hussie himself has said he can't take legal action and has tried to keep angry Homestuck fans from doing anything. "
openUNINTENTIONALLY UNSYMPATHETIC MISUSE?
From ''Harry Potter":
- Base-Breaking Character example: certain members of the Weasley family can come off as this for the fans that feel they're major Creators Pets.
- Fred and George fall into this category for some, who find their Naughty Is Good mentality and propensity for playing often destructive pranks as more indicative of amoral bullies than carefree pranksters. This reached a crux in, yet again, Order of the Phoenix, where a prank they play on one of Professor Umbridge's minions nearly - albeit accidentally - kills the unfortunate schmuck in question. There's also the fact that after leaving school, the joke shop they open explicitly makes most of its money from love potions, which are presented in the narrative as being like magical Date Rape drugs (a comparison Dumbledore makes explicitly).
- Ron comes off as this for the fans that find his flaws annoying rather than sympathetic or likable. His self-righteous attitude, tendency to get easily jealous (to the point that he turned his back on Harry in the fourth book, and then abandoned Harry and Hermione in the middle of the seventh book over the locket), and his lazy attitude towards working in general (while bemoaning his status as the Can't Catch Up Butt-Monkey) have only added on to this. The films just exacerbate this, since nearly all of his heroic moments from the books were either removed or given to Hermione instead, turning him into The Load and leaving viewers questioning just what his good qualities were supposed to be in the first place.
- Molly can be this for the fans that find her shrill, demanding and annoying. The implication that she wanted a daughter so badly that she kept popping out kids until she got one (leaving Ron feeling like The Un-Favorite) also hasn't helped her case. Then there's her treatment of Hermione in the fourth book when she buys into the lies Rita Skeeter is publishing about her.
- Ginny also comes off this way due to her personality completely changing from the second book to the sixth and Harry's extremely sudden, poorly-written feelings for her. In the fifth book Harry is worried because he can see what Voldemort is doing and lashes out at his friends. Ginny basically tells him to shut up because she was possessed by Tom Riddle in the second book and isn't complaining about it, but Ginny herself admits that she doesn't remember what she was doing during those periods. Combined with her bossy, aggressive nature and the fact she's never shown to be in the wrong leads her to coming off very insufferable and bratty.
The Base-Breaking part suggest it's not universal enough to count. Fred and George were commented out "because none of their pranks ever killed anyone. The prank in question mentioned here was shoving someone into a broken Vanishing Cabinet. The kid was not in danger of dying until HE decided to get himself out of limbo by Apparating without having a license." Ron and Molly weren't supposed to be sympathetic for those flaws, with Ron regretting the former. Ginny's possibly valid example has nothing to do with "her personality completely changing from the second book to the sixth and Harry's extremely sudden, poorly-written feelings for her", making it seem like complaining.
Should I cut or revise any of them? I'd bring this to the Unintentionally Unsympathetic Cleanup
but they still haven't replied to my last inquiry.
opensmall edit war
Recently, i questioned in the "is this an example" thread about a Composite Character example that was with a "hidden" marking in Pokémon: I Choose You!, in Ash's folder:
- Composite Character: Of himself throughout the main anime series.
After read the answer, i waited some days and removed the example with "I questioned in the " is this an example " thread, wording the question as "Considering that all the main anime series belong to the same continuity, is this an actual example? " . The only answer i received was "You can't be a Composite Character of yourself, that's ridiculous. "" as edit reason.
Shadao(That included the example originally) included the example again with "Ash (M20) is NOT the same Ash from the main series." as edit reason and the following wording:
- Composite Character: Design-wise, his outfit in Everyone's Story takes cues from his Unova design (a white jacket with blue and white highlights) and his Alola design (baggy shorts and blue shoes).
(Out of note, M20 is an abbreviation to Movie 20, that is in an Alternate Continuity. Ash uses the Unova design and the Alola design in the main series.)
Edited by MagBasopenShould we just remove HypeBacklash altogether?
So on the Beauty and the Beast (2017) page, almost two years back, I added a Hype Backlash to the page and it seemed like it followed the basic qualifications to be added there. This is what it used to say:
Hype Backlash: When it was revealed that Disney would be releasing a live-action adaptation of the 1991 film, many people were very happy since that version was done so well. After it was released, while many people regard it a good film, some beg to differ and question why it was remade to begin with given how slavishly faithful it is. This overlaps with fatigue with Disney's recent trend of releasing at least one live-action adaptation of an animated canon film every year, or alternatively a belated sequel as in the case of Mary Poppins Returns in 2018. Even some people who enjoy it still feel it's not as good as the original, and/or unfavorably compare it to the company's previous two adaptations in this vein, which took more liberties with their material. It's largely a matter of personal taste and what one thinks of the changes made to the animated versions' storylines, tones, etc.
It was even kept when the site decided to redefine the trope altogether and when the trope was being removed for numerous YMMV pages for not meeting the new criteria. I look at the page's history now and I found the example removed, citing that it doesn't meet the current criteria, quote About fans or critics praising it such audiences don't think it measures up. Not just disappointment.
Honestly, as this point can we just get a vote to remove Hype Backlash altogether? It seems that every few months we keep redefining what a YMMV trope is supposed to mean and if said trope can remain on the page for more nearly two years only to be deleted randomly even after redefining it, what's the point of even keeping it? This wouldn't even be that much of a deal for me if it weren't for the fact that said entry was on the page for almost two years without anyone complaining or thinking it didn't fit with the trope.
Now look, Audience-Alienating Premise made a bit of sense because the name itself made the idea of what the trope means far too vague (now it's supposed to be used if a work has a niche audience/reaction, I honestly don't know) but I legit don't think we should even bother keeping Hype Backlash if we can never decide on what it's supposed to really mean.
openTLP draft ninja launched
My trope Usurping Santa was just ninja launched by another user. It was probably ready to launch anyway, and I wouldn't have had a problem with it, were it not for the fact that on the draft's discussion
, I explicitly asked for help, and nobody stepped in to answer my question before that person just launched it themself without any explanation.
openStranged By the Red String, HTTYD: Hidden World Film
"Not only is applying this to a couple of animals weird on itself but a solid third of the movie is dedicated to the courtship. If you don't like it, put it in broken base, but this does not fit SBTRS"
So I added this example because, while the movie's about Toothless and the Light fury, it's not about their courtship; they have one scene dedicated to their courtship. They pretty much fall in love at first sight, have their four minute "first date", and the rest of the movie is about their relationship taking precedence over literally every other character, relationship, priority, and theme HTTYD has ever presented to us. Thoughts?
Edited by Spacecoyote
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
openIs Fallout 76 So Bad It's Horrible?
Fallout 76 has been added to Horrible.Video Game Generations Seventh Onwards.
It has a Metacritic score of 51, with most critic reviews being mixed rather than outright negative, making me think the addition is a knee-jerk reaction to the controversy currently surrounding the game.
The sentence starting with "While the full fallout of the disaster haven't been seen..." may be in violation of Examples Are Not Recent since it's using language that makes it sound like the issues mentioned are still ongoing (which they are, but will most likely stop being so in a few days' or weeks' time), on top of not actually being about the game itself.
openAlex Rider characters split
A couple weeks ago, someone started splitting Characters.Alex Rider into subpages, but they never actually finished, so most of the content is just… gone.
I would fix it myself, but I haven't finished the series yet and don't want to get spoiled.

So a while ago, we discussed whether or not to delete several vlogger pages based on the idea that the vloggers were just people talking about things and not creating a work.
At the time, it was argued that Sargon Of Akkad should be allowed because he occasionally does Let's Plays of videogames. But, a recent editor stated that (in the words of Sargon himself) the channel we're troping here is his "shitposting" one, in which he makes political statements or rants against groups he dislikes. If that's true, should the matter be revisited?
(FYI, I fully admit to not watching, agreeing with or particularly liking Sargon. So I will recuse myself from the discussion.)