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openWarning to NOT add context to examples?
Abraxas (Hrodvitnon) has a huge commented out header (takes up almost the entire screen on desktop, which has the instructions "Be aware, trope entries listed on these pages are deliberately shortened, to both keep spoilers to a minimal and actively encourage page viewers to read the actual fanfiction. Please do not extend entries, and try to avoid going into unnecessary details."
Is this kind of thing allowed? It seems like this encourages Zero-Context Examples- the page itself has a number of them, which I've commented out.
open Plot Hole example or not?
This example I added awhile back to Recap.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 6 E 26 To Where And Back Again Part 2 was removed.
- Plot Hole: Chrysalis's Evil Plan is revealed to be to replace and impersonate the most beloved beings in Equestria, including Celestia and Luna, to feed off the citizens love of them "for generations!" But it's unexplained how they could have kept up the act for more than a day as Celestia and Luna are required to raise the sun and moon each day and night, a power changelings lack. It was also night when they were captured but day immediately after their release.
It was cut citing "This sounds less like a Plot Hole and more like Didn't Think This Through on Chrysalis's part." It's not Didn't Think This Through which requires the lack of thought be shown or addressed in work which isn't the case.
I thought it was valid as there's seemingly no way the Evil Plan couldn't have collapsed on itself so quickly the heroes wouldn't need to rush to stop it or not trust others as it would soon be exposed to the masses. They don't even bring it up when explaining their urgency (like what would happen to the captives afterward) or when they're trying to talk the villains out of it.
Might be this more Fridge Logic as it's indirect to the main plot/conflict?
openThe Amazing Spider-Man Series Cleanup
The page for The Amazing Spider-Man Series is a cluttered mess. There's too much in the lead to the article, it's confusing to read, and a lot of it repeats itself.
I think it should either be cut down to the bare minimum of what is needed, or if we want to keep it, clean it up and make it presentable.
Sorry if this isn't the place for this. I've not done this before.
openPossible vandal
There's a user named JBriskin who has been putting down edits on the Pocahontas character pages, specifically under Chief Powhatan. The edits are mostly about how his actual name is Wahunsenacah. I don't know if this is actually true or not, given that Powhatan himself was inspired by the real Powhatan and is his name was Wahunsenacah; but his actual name was never once spoken in any of the movies.
The point is, when I tried fixing these edits, JBriskin changed them back. What do you think? Would what he's doing be considered inserting false information?
Here's the link to the history page.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Characters.Pocahontas
open"Note Natter"?
On the Hero's Slave Harem page, Tropers.Discar changed this section of the description:
By removing both notes, citing "Note Natter" as an edit reason.
I've never heard of "Note Natter" being a thing, although, I can certainly see how notes could be irrelevant to an example. However, this isn't an example — it's the description — and on a trope HEAPED with tons of Unfortunate Implications. IMO, the notes (the second one, at least) were extremely important for explaining exactly why the trope is so contentious.
Edited by NubianSatyressopenPoor grammar again
The Lampshade Hangerman uses very bad grammar. Here's an
example: "After Recieving tons of Hate-mail, which THANKFULLY have been Filtered and scanned for Biological Weapons like Anthrax by the Japanese Post Office; He gets A Fan-Letter from a guy from Norway named Bjorn who has written that he, his family, and Norway itself Loves him; even sending him a box of foreign sweets, and A Scarf modeled after the Norwegian Flag" (Note the lack of punctuation at the end.)
openWhat if alternate Reed Richards was awesome?
The animated series What If…? (2021) had a list of examples of Alternate Universe Reed Richards Is Awesome.
- Alternate Universe Reed Richards Is Awesome: Part of the premise of What If...? focuses on alternate versions of MCU characters, some of whom are far more powerful or stronger than their main timeline counterparts.
- Peggy Carter became a British super-soldier that took down HYDRA during World War II and saved Bucky Barnes from falling and losing his arm. She also stopped a giant Kraken from destroying the Earth and would reemerge in the present day to join the Avengers Initiative.
- Exaggerated with T'Challa as Star-Lord. Not only did he outshine his Sacred Timeline self and Peter as Star-Lord in every way possible, but he has also saved countless planets, including Drax's which means his family is still alive, and has become a well known and respected Robin Hood type hero throughout the galaxy by 2008. He even convinced Thanos to do a Heel–Face Turn.
- In the same episode with T'Challa, due to Thanos turning good the Collector takes his place as the Big Bad of the MCU and is implied to have killed, Captain America, Thor and Hela. Downplayed however as he was defeated far more easily than Thanos was in the Sacred Timeline by T'Challa.
- A rare example where a character became more awesome by going through a Face–Heel Turn with Hank Pym, who, out of vengeance for the death of Hope during a SHIELD mission, kills all the founding members of the Avengers but Captain America.
- In What If… Doctor Strange Lost His Heart Instead of His Hands?, Strange Supreme is incredibly powerful after centuries of absorbing the power of creatures from other dimensions (to the point he can actually perceive Uatu as he watches events unfold and defeat his good variant created by the Ancient One) all he accomplishes in his quest to bring back his girlfriend Christine is the complete destruction of his universe. Essentially he's what Strange would have become if he allowed his arrogance and fear of failure rule his actions.
I removed all of them, and said "All the examples are misuse. Alternate Universe Reed Richards Is Awesome is Reed Richards Is Useless being averted in an alternate universe, not about an alternate character being more "awesome" than the original". It was restored later saying "Laconically, Alternate Reed Richards Is Awesome is about an Alternate Self making changes to their world that their original version cannot. Examples for this trope on its own page also include the likes of alternate selves doing much bigger things than their original counterparts, whether good or bad. So I don't believe this trope is misuse." None of the examples explain changes about the world's setting, only changes in the dynamic of the characters, and the trope's expanded definition should take priority over the laconic entry.
By the way, as I checked the article history I noticed a mistake from my part: I removed examples of Not As You Know Them also as misuse, and now I removed examples of Same Character, But Different, misuse as well, but I did not notice that those were the same examples repurposed to another trope. Meaning, I accidentally made an edit war. I apologize if this was wrong, and please comment on this other as well.
Edited by GrigorIIopenFridge pages
On Fridge pages, I sometimes notice users treating them like Headscratchers 2.0 and putting in questions in their bullet points, even if they're to answer them in the following sentence. Is this allowed? I'd assume that Fridge should refrain from asking questions within the entries and only call attention to things about the work that make sense in context which the series itself never lampshades.
openOdd edits for a story
I found Fanfic.The Little Lock That Could, and while the page itself was alright, I noticed that the subpages were in... rough shape, to say the least. Some issues include:
- Entries that are just blank bullet points (see here
and here
)
- A page that initially was just framework
(and it still has the templates).
- Pages that don't specify a franchise (Characters.Minor Characters and Characters.Major Characters - probably not an issue, but it's still irritating)
- Pages being updated in real time
(not really sure how to phrase it, but the page description itself gives updates on the story that would be more suited for a trivia page)
- And the subpage that convinced me to make this post, Memes.The Little Lock That Could. Not only is it very short for a subpage (only four entries), but it also has a total of seven images on it (the character pages also have some issues with multiple images in one folder, but this is the most extreme example I saw).
I noticed that most of this was done by one person (Tropers.Divoratore), but they haven't edited since October 2020.
Edited by idonomopenContinuity Error or too soon to say?
WesternAnimation.My Little Pony A New Generation:
- Continuity Snarl: In spite of being a loose continuation of Friendship is Magic, the movie's plot point of magic being gone creates a lot of small conflicts with the show's worldbuilding, chiefly centering on how G4 depicted both the day-night cycle and the day-to-day managing of nature and the weather as being dependent on active magic, despite their being still running in the movie, and on how when the pony tribes were divided and hostile in G4's own backstory this didn't cause a loss of magic as it did here.
- Series Continuity Error: While there are many, many references to Generation 4 due to this being a Sequel Series, there are some things that don't line up, particularly the fact that here ponies only have their cutie marks on their right side when in Friendship is Magic ponies have them on both sides.
- What Happened to the Mouse?: In Generation 4, it's shown that disharmony between the three pony races summons ghostly, horse-like creatures known as Windigos that feed on their negative emotions and turn Equestria into an icy wasteland. Here, the three races living apart and believing the worst of each other seems to have eliminated magic entirely, with no hint of the Windigos ever being a problem, though it's possible they were destroyed at the end of Friendship is Magic.
It's possible, if not likely given the Continuity Nods, these seeming Continuity Errors will be explained in the upcoming series. Should they thus be moved to What Happened to the Mouse?
Speaking of Mouse, does/should it only apply to unresolved elements brought up in the work itself or can it include such regarding prior installments?
And/or should any of this be moved to Fridge/Headscratchers as too soon to say if it will be addressed later or not? How long should we give before it's safe to assume the former two will remain unresolved thus counting as Error and Snarl. And should the Snarl be moved to Error as Snarl is caused by complex/convoluted continuity (the difference between Error and Snarl was brought to cleanup but I believe that stalled out)?
openFunny Moments
Can Funny Moments for a comic also include funny commentary from the creator's personal weblog, or does it have to be in the comic itself?
openPokemon The Series divisions
Just out of academic curiosity, who split the Pokemon anime pages up according to season/series? It's something I'd actually been thinking about doing myself for months but never got around to it. I want to give major props to whoever did so, especially since they did it all on Pokemon Day.
openWMG page that unabashedly disregards ROCEJ
I thought the WMG entry I brought up yesterday
was bad. The WMG page I came across today make that one seem tame by comparison, and there's a lot more than just one entry. Examples include:
- Hoping the entire cast will die, then being disappointed when they don't (this is only the first entry).
- Calling the people who work on the show Trolling Creators who are making people sick of MTV's Network Decay even madder.
- Numerous theories as to what species Snookie belongs tonote such as half goblin, part tangerine, and a hybrid of Amy Winehouse and a pumpkin.
- Accusing the show of being a Batman Gambit to make sure that aliens don't invadenote The entry states that if aliens watched the show, they would consider the entire human race to be already on the road to wiping itself out (and therefore not worth invading in the first place).
As divisive as it is, Jersey Shore is still a Reality TV show, which makes these entries all the more insane.
Edited by Shadow8411openStrawman Has a Point in Godzilla King of the Monsters 2019 Film
Troper Derv0s B 2 added this to Strawman Has a Point in the YMMV page of Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019):
"A surprising number of viewers reacted this way to the government's Gotta Kill 'Em All demands regarding the Titans. Said viewers argue that while the ending proves The Extremist Was Right, with what little the human race knows about the Titans at the film's start, the demand comes off as highly understandable. Of course, this argument ignores the fact that Monarch have already established before the film's start that the Titans are ecologically essential, and that the government are basically getting it into their heads that they somehow know better than the professional Titan experts."
I think the fact that the entry argues with itself disqualifies it for the trope. What do you say?
openTwo-sided example dispute on YMMV/RedoOfHealer
To go over this dilemma, I'll need to lay out the context within the Redo Of Healer story.
Buckle up, because this is going to take a while. (If you want to skip all this stuff, go straight to the TL;DR at the bottom.)
- Keyaru is a healer that is enslaved and kept docile by magical drugs so that he can be raped and used. After developing immunity to drugs, he then kills his tormenters and restarts time with his memories intact.
- After going back in time, he starts learning new abilities and kickstarting his immunity early. Princess Flare, who can sense "Heroes", tracks him down and brings him back to the castle to be a healer. She is the primary target for Keyaru's revenge.
- Keyaru deliberately allows the initial steps to happen as before, such as various maids in the castle "seducing" him because sex with a healer makes one more powerful. He absorbs the abilities of each person he has sex with.
- Flare tasks Keyaru to heal a swordswoman with a missing arm. The process causes Keyaru tremendous pain and he blacks out. After he wakes up, he deliberately pretends to be traumatized by the experience and refuses to ever heal again, exactly as he did in the first timeline, so that Flare will be disgusted with him and have him drugged and enslaved.
- While drugged and enslaved, Keyaru is again made a sex slave and raped (including by male soldiers). However, he uses this to absorb their abilities.
- After drug immunity kicks in early, Keyaru escapes and begins taking his revenge on everyone.
I tell you all of this, because a lot of people who watch the series criticize and do a lot of headscratching at point #4, where he intentionally pretends to be traumatized, knowing exactly what would happen. His reasoning as stated in the story was that he wanted to absorb the knights' abilties, but those who criticize this argue that he would be able to do that simply by healing them after battle, as Flare was asking him to do. Allowing himself to be drugged and raped again in the second timeline is thus criticized as only being for the benefit of the audience seeing what pieces of work Flare and everyone in her kingdom are.
An example of Unintentionally Unsympathetic was added by Clown Prince 47
mentioning this exact criticism. It was removed by Tropers.Raquel The UFO for the reason: "I'm deleting this portion because Keyaru actually explains why he took the path of revenge instead of trying to avoid the path entirely. Flare has the power to sense heroes like her. Even if Keyaru denied her request to be a hero or ran away from home, she would find him, drag him back and subjugate him all over again like in the first timeline meaning that a life of peace was impossible from the start."
I brought it to the discussion page
because the removal reason is incorrect: nobody is arguing whether or not Keyaru should have taken revenge at all — they are specifically questioning whether step #4 in his plan was necessary, under the logic that he could have still gotten his revenge without subjecting himself to the same torment.
Tropers.Dj0rel first made the accusation that I "didn't read" the edit reason, and repeatedly made the same accusation. When that was finally cleared up, he then made the claim "And you assume that he could have avoided everything if he played along? I think you are forgetting what kind of people he's dealing here". After I said that this was Speculative Troping, because we don't trope what is likely to happen, he then flipped it to claim that criticizing Keyaru's decisions is "speculation".
TL;DR:
Tropers.Dj0rel argues that the logic of the story makes sense in context because questioning the protagonist's decisions is "speculation".
I argue that that isn't how YMMV works. If people are all having the same fridge logic and argue that the protagonist's actions don't make sense, even with the explanation given in-story, then it's significant enough to trope.
For proof that this isn't just a criticism posed by myself or Clown Prince 47, there is also this critique on Youtube
addressing the same exact plot point.
openMagnum Opus Dissonance misuse?
- Cupcakes is an extremely gory My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic fanfic that was written on a whim because the author wanted to see if it would actually get any attention. The result: a fanfic so infamous that reading it is more or less a pre-requisite for understanding many of the in-jokes and references in the Friendship Is Magic fandom. It's spawned an incredible number of spinoff fics, and later someone claiming to be one of the show's animators made a rather gruesome music video based on the fic. The show's staff is also more likely than not aware of it, as they often interact with the community. Most bronies might not even know that the author actually wrote more 'normal', more serious works that don't exactly get a ton of attention compared to Cupcakes.
- BioWare first began development on Anthem under the codename "Project Dylan", as they envisioned creating what they wanted to be seen as the Bob Dylan of video games; a title that would be referenced and remembered for years, which clearly indicated that they intended it to be their masterpiece. Unfortunately, in-part thanks to an extremely Troubled Production, the game wound up being the lowest rated title in the company's history.
I suspect both are misuse. Cupcakes never states the author thought their other works were better. Nor did they say ‘’Anthem'' was their best after it's Troubled Production thwarted their plans to make it their best.
Relating, this Magnum Opus Dissonance entry was deleted by troper genocide 24 without edit reason.
- My Little Pony: Friends Forever #14 was self-described as "the most socially and politically conscious pony comic you ever read" within 10 minutes of its release on writer Jeremy Whitley's twitter
...who went on to fiercely defend it and even blocked the author of the scathing article that pointed out the many problems and complaints
of the issue, which was almost universally disliked. Compare and contrast his Fiendship Is Magic issue that featured King Sombra's origin which, despite releasing with much less fanfare was praised as not only the best of the entire Fiendship series but one of the best issues in the entire IDW comics run.
I PM'd them asking why they removed it. Anyone have any reasons not to add it back?
And why is Magnum Opus Dissonance Trivia and not YMMV if the part that makes it different from the Trivia Creator's Favorite Episode is audience opinion?
openDC Infinite Frontier 2.0 Print Comic
DC Infinite Frontier is in full swing and its YMMV page is up and running, but some of its entries come off as opinionated writing. In the main page, Continuity Snarl has the following context: "Minor case, but the whole concept of Barry Passing the Torch back to Wally, as it's presented as if Barry was giving Wally a promotion. While meta-wise, Barry had been treated as the "real" Flash by DC's editorial, and Wally had been Demoted to Extra with his return (and had suffered a major Heroic BSoD in the last few years thanks to being a Cosmic Plaything), in-universe the two were meant to be about equal, in the same manner as Hal Jordan and John Stewart, so this shouldn't be a case of Wally 'taking Barry's role' so much as Barry leaving Wally to handle their shared duties on his own, something they both know he's more than capable of doing. It is a minor case however, as this somewhat makes sense with their respective flaws; Wally has cripplingly low self-esteem despite his greater power levelnote even putting aside his recent Mobius Chair powers which elevated him to Godhood, Wally is a cosmic powerhouse, while Barry has had It's All About Me tendencies in recent years."
The YMMV page lists Barry Allen as Unintentionally Unsympathetic with this context: "Barry Allen once again falls victim to this when his whole sequence with Wally West features Barry stating he is leaving to help President Superman deal with something Multiverse-related. In regards to his departure, Barry tells Wally that he's now the Flash and is leaving Earth-0 under Wally's care. While this is meant to be seen as if Barry's passing the torch to Wally, aside from the glaringly obvious issue that Wally was already the Flash for years, the whole thing comes across as if Barry's patronizing Wally. The idea that Barry thinks he needs to give Wally his blessing after everything Barry did that ended up practically destroying Wally's life is incredibly galling on Barry's part."
I admit I haven't read The Flash comics in years, but this comes off as an attempt to demonize Barry for, yet again, the Flashpoint event. Last year, Barry was given an entry in Designated Hero but this was later disproven
, which is why I'm bringing this topic up again.
Pandering to the Base has this context: "Given that the event is intended to be about realigning DC to fix their recent mistakes, it's gotten some heat from New 52 fans, particularly over benching Barbara Gordon to return her being to Oracle, and to having Barry Allen be Put on a Bus to give Wally West the Flash title again, as well as being lighter and more idealistic instead of Darker and Edgier. For most fans, long-term and new, this is fixing some severe mistakes, but for the Vocal Minority who joined the fandom during the New 52, it feels like fans of the pre-New 52 DC are Running the Asylum." —- Also, Win The Crowd is becoming a bit bloated, with examples like:
- The creative team of Mariko Tamaki and Dan Mora on Detective Comics is considered by many to be an improvement over the last one, which many derided as So Okay, It's Average.
- To say nothing of actually keeping to what they inferred with Speed Metal and having Wally West once again the lead character of The Flash. Some Barry fans are mad, but general Flash fans consider this franchise rerailment and Wally West's fanbase are ecstatic. Helping matters is the initial arc is solicited to feature the Flash Family, something that was deeply missed by the fans during the last decade.
- Mitigating the issue with Barry was the announcement of an Infinite Frontier event that will chronicle what he's doing with the Justice Incarnate team, along with plans for a Justice Incarnate ongoing to launch after helps avoid the feeling he's being tossed away.
- Also, while not officially announced and confirmed, the statement that there are plans for a Batgirls book co-staring Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain, with Barbara Gordon as their mentor, has fans of the Batgirl legacy hyped, especially as this was a commonly suggested fan-idea.
- Fan reception to Brian Michael Bendis on Justice League is naturally mixed thanks to his equally-vocal Fandom and Hatedom, but people are responding well to the line-up, which has avoided the Big Seven focusnote which had been the case for the last decade and people were growing bored of, primarily because it was considered creatively uninspired and quite limiting to what the Justice League can be, to instead a mixed team featuring new characters like Naomi, old classics like Green Arrow and Black Canary, and unexpected ones like Hippolyta and Black Adam.
This entries come off as knee-jerk reactions instead of, well, entries that could have a long-term position in this page.
So, what do you say?
openDisputing recent deletion (Invincible 2021: Spoilers) Western Animation
I had recently added the following example to the YMMV page of Invincible (2021):
- What An Idiot: Despite being shown to be a very competent team of heroes, several members of the Guardians of the Globe grab the Idiot Ball hard during their fight with Omni-Man.
- [[spoiler: The first thing Red Rush does when the fight starts is shove Immortal out of the way of Omni-Man’s sneak attack, saving Immortal’s life. Then when Omni-Man continues to attack, Red Rush counters Omni-Man’s speed by moving his teammates out of the way at the last second, frustrating Omni-Man.
- [[spoiler: Darkwing functions as the team’s Batman Expy, using stealth, gadgets, skill and intelligence to take out his opponents. He’s also just seen Omni-Man murder Red Rush.
These additions were deleted with the following justification:
My Little Xero: Simply doesn't fit, as we barely know anything about the character before their deaths, claiming that they're holding the Idiot Ball is simply inaccurate as we need to know their typical behavior to call it as such, in addition as we see when the Guardians fight the Mauler Twins, the tactics used the by the characters to fight Omni-Man are pretty much the same so this
Naturally, I disagree. For one thing, the part of editing reason is inaccurate, as the tactics used by the mentioned characters in a previous fight are different from the ones they used vs Omni-Man. Against the Mauler Twins (who are much weaker than Omni-Man), Darkwing actually maintained distance, uses his weapons effectively and did not try to drop kick either of them. Likewise, Red Rush only engages the Mauler Twins (who are both much slower than Omni-Man) in melee when Green Ghost immobilizes them. So in both instances, the heroes tactics were different in their fight with Omni-Man than they were with the Mauler Twins.
Beyond them simply not being as effective as before, the tactics in both cases are suicidally stupid. Literally so since it gets them both killed (along with other members of their team), and I feel What an Idiot was made for moments of that kind of stupidity, regardless of how little we might know about the characters in general.
Furthermore, a lack of knowledge of a character does not invalidate the use of What An Idiot listings. Taken directly from the What An Idiot page:
"Because most viewers have basic common sense, one would usually expect the same from characters on TV shows. Any negative deviation from such usually prompts a Face Palm and the comment "What an idiot!" or similar, hence the entry name."
The page also mentions that some characters are supposed to be idiots, but goes on to say how that does not invalidate including them in What An Idiot entries. It merely asks that you summarize such moments rather than list them all.
If it's specifically the inclusion of the Idiot Ball trope that makes this inaccurate, I can remove it. I have ZERO intentions of getting into any kind of an editing war, so I'd like other opinions on the matter, to make sure I'm not in the wrong or anything before I take any additional steps.
Edited by Ares101openWasted Character? - Edit War
keyblade333 has added the following example of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character to Wonder Woman (2017):
"Ares is one Wonder Woman's top villains in terms of influence, power, and overall notability. The choice to end the very first solo film with him defeated is seen as a huge waste by many viewers, as Ares easily is strong enough that he could be a good climatic villain at the end of perhaps another movie that builds up to him. He even works well as a potential Big Bad for a Justice League style villain if built up enough. Sadly he is killed after appearing at the end with no real build up."
I don't think this is a valid example because, as stated in the trope's page, "this trope is about ignored characters with good potential who never receive the spotlight (or do so just once and then get removed or forgotten)". Ares' machinations are the catalyst for everything that goes wrong in the narrative, and I don't understand what they mean by "no real build up", given that killing him is Wonder Woman's entire motivation for most of the film.
The entry also argues that Ares deserved to be the villain of another film, but this violates another of this trope's rules: "(This trope) is not about leading characters who are not used the way you would like; there are infinite alternative ways any given character could have been used."
It should be noted that this is the second time this troper has added such an example to the page, so I cannot do anything about it without edit warring myself. Can I get some opinions?

YMMV.Metroid Other M
I think this is misuse as: 1. The work does attempt to portray him as "reasonable authority figure" who's becoming cold to Samus has an in-work explanation, it just does a very bad job at portraying it. 2. His characterization would likely have been just as unpopular even if it didn't replace his prior depiction.
The They Changed It, Now It Sucks! page sounds like it's only supposed to apply to changes in adaptations. But is seems like it's used for any complaints, the sort of thing that got restrictions placed on other tropes. Does it has such restrictions?