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open EditWar on Recap.TheSimpsonsS7E5LisaTheVegetarian
BrianKT
has made some deletions on The Simpsons S7 E5 "Lisa the Vegetarian" that I find very questionable. The examples are Broken Aesop, Hypocrite and (on the YMMV page) Don't Shoot the Message, all of which refer to Apu talking to Lisa about how to respect other people's beliefs (the episode revolved around Lisa becoming a vegetarian, and Apu revealing he secretly serves customers tofu dogs instead of hot dogs).
BrianKT deleted all examples referring to it on the basis that "he's not forcing them on other people, and what they don't know won't hurt them".
I disagree with this assessment and restored the examples on the basis that Apu is a Hypocrite since he isn't practicing what he preaches: he tells Lisa to respect other people's beliefs and not actively force them to stop eating meat, yet he himself doesn't respect other people's beliefs since he's secretly selling them tofu dogs instead of hot dogs; if he respected other people's rights to eat meat, he would sell them the meat they paid for instead of what amounts to lying to their faces. Just because he's not vocal and in-your-face about it like Lisa is does not mean he isn't still forcing his beliefs. The "what they don't know won't hurt them" reasoning is also disagreeable since a deleted entry on BrokenAesop.The Simpsons points out that a customer could be allergic to soy, which definitely would hurt them if they ate a tofu dog while thinking it was a hot dog.
BrianKT then deleted the examples again (I didn't add the original examples, merely restored them, so he's reverse-Edit Warring: delete-add-delete [but if I'm edit-warring too, my bad]) and linked to the Removing complaining thread
as the edit reason; I went there to check, and it turns out he didn't actually get approval from the thread before deleting the examples.
Should the examples stay up, or was he justified in deleting them? I'm not sure of how to resolve this, so I'm asking here.
Edited by N8han11openTroper making pages that have warranted immediate deletion
wordlessapple
has recently created a page (along with a couple of subpages) that violate ROCEJ. Specifically, the page tropes real-life people involved in a very long, very toxic comment thread on Youtube. The moment it was brought up
, it was agreed that it should be sent to the cutlist ASAP.
After the main page and Trivia page were sent to the cutlist, the troper who created the page made a YMMV page for it, so I sent that page to the cutlist and noted the cleanup thread. Concerned, I had a quick check at the troper's edit history and came across this
. I wouldn't recommend clicking that link if you're of a nervous disposition (or if you've just eaten), but it's a YMMV page with only one entry. An entry for a trope that has been disallowed examples for a very long time, not to mention the content of the entry itself. That page is also now on the cutlist, and this troper's activity worries me.
openTierInducedScrappy/HeroesOfTheStorm Videogame
On July 19th I remove most of the entries on the Heroes Of The Storm because of the nature of how the page was setup, as it didn't follow other examples such as High/Low/Both, the entries are about 75% of the cast, and the entries don't really explain where they fit in the Tier Induced Scrappy besides saying things like "Their uber low tier", plus the entries seem like they are all over the place in terms of how they are ranked. Is it quick match, ranked, etc.
After I did so, MurlocAggroB readded everything with the following reason: "I know this is non-standard, but there's no rule against non-standard page layouts. You can't just delete 90% of a page's content. Also, not to be elitist, but those entries about Butcher and TLV are laughably wrong."
Firstly I find the "laughably wrong" unnecessary and rude, no explanation was given how this is wrong. Secondly, the entries need seriously evaluation because how the entries are. They are below:
The Butcher
- The Butcher is an aggressive all-in burster, with the ability to 100-0 lots of heroes, especially late game. However, he's also the best example of a Skill Gate Character. He's a pubstomper who thrives on bad play, which you don't see a lot of in the higher leagues. And if he doesn't snowball, he becomes The Load, with not enough damage to be relevant in the lategame and no way to catch up. Dying is easy with his kit, and is extremely punishing as he loses his precious meat. Not to mention, he's the most easily outdrafted hero in the game, being butchered by Blinds, Shields, and strong escape. He's gone through four reworks to attempt to balance his kit, more than any other character, all met with general failure. Out of all the reworks, only one made him competitively viable (the one that came with the Garrosh patch), with the small downside of making him an all-around completely broken character. He was promptly nerfed and is still basically a Quick Match hero only.
Gazlowe
- Gazlowe had been considered an uber-low-tier character for the longest time. He was an overly defensive character that wasn't able to do much except defending an area... and even that doesn't do much compared to bringing your team there. He was also very squishy and didn't push as hard as other choices. 'Hoping Gazlowe gets a buff' was pretty much a Running Gag to the community. This eventually led to Blizzard doing a massive rework of his talents in the Dehaka patch, but it still wasn't enough to fix it. In late 2020, he was given a huge update that reworked him into a bruiser, making him much more useful.
Illidan
- Not even Memetic Mutation can save Illidan from being this trope. He's very squishy and not capable of big burst damage; and while he definitely can chip away the enemy HP slowly, he's also very squishy for someone who demands to be in the middle of combat at all times. He's taken a dive to the lower tier and picking him can elicit Big "NO!"s from your team. He got better after a lot of his talent reworks, but still isn't considered very viable.
Maiev
- Maiev gets a lot of flak for a very specific reason - she failed to deliver on her promises. Despite being advertised as an anti-mobility hero, Maiev did little to fix any of the mobile terrors haunting the meta. Instead, her kit let her join in on it, punishing backline squishies with powerful CC, preventing them from running and often pulling them into her team. She was just another in a long line of heroes suffering from mobility creep.
Murky
- No one likes babysitting Murky. Thanks to his crazy waveclear and general pushing power, Murky needs a constant lane opponent to discourage him from knocking down forts. But, thanks to Murky's non-existent respawn time and measly kill worth, killing him isn't enough to make him leave. Add in Safety Bubble making him shockingly hard to kill in the first place, the fact that Slime and his respawn lets himy win a war of attrition, and his Octo-grab + Pufferfish combo chunking all of Murky's best counters for most of their health, and you have a recipe for possibly the most annoying hero in the game.
Valeera
- Valeera suffers from the same problems as Nova, but has an even worse reputation in Quick Match. On top of being far too focused on hero killing, she is melee and has very little in terms of escape (only a short dash and a rarely-chosen immunity Heroic), making her worthless in any serious game. But all of her low-league infamy comes from one of her abilities: Cheap Shot. It allows her to stun an enemy for a fairly lengthy period and is used in stealth. This gives her unbelievable ganking abilities against enemies caught out of position.
- As of her late 2017 rework, Cheap Shot is no longer frustrating, as it became an anti-AA blind. However, Garrote is her new "cancer" ability. A combination of the second-longest Silence on a basic ability, decent damage and talents that pump even more damage from it, and a blink-strike move if she stays Vanished for long enough, it's simply a death sentence, totally shutting off a hero your choosing for over 2 seconds.
Cassia
- Cassia was hated because she was the ultimate anti-Basic Attacker. With her release, her trait initially gave her 65 Physical Armor, meaning that she had more hp than some tanks against Basic Attack heroes, on top of that she has a Blind and one of the highest dps, especially with Charged Strikes, which gave her not only a damage boost, but made her Basic Attacks splash to every other hero close to the target as well (that included structures initially). On the other hand, she was extremely gimped against ranged heroes and those who rely on spell damage, as her range was much shorter (4.0 vs standard 5.5) and her trait didn't work against spell damage at all.
- Cassia's rework in 2020 aimed to make her more of a generalist and update her talent tree. Her Armor is now gained over time while moving and has a lower cap but also protects from Spell Damage, and there were quality of life improvements for all of her abilities. However, Blizzard overnerfed her in return, which unfortunately left her very underpowered. She was promptly buffed, which, like Zarya below, proved to be a disastrous idea. Her combination of extra flexibility and incredible tankiness via her new trait made her the de facto Ranged Assassin, propelled by an extremely overtuned talent called Surge of LightEffect After absorbing enough damage with her trait, it could be activated to damage all enemies around her. It otherwise had no cooldown and dealt 300 damage originally, potentially dealing a thousand burst by itself in an AoE in one team fight. She was nerfed in almost every patch for nearly a year, finally settling down (but still remaining viable) around October of that year.
Fenix
- If you need proof on how power level can warp how characters are seen, look no farther than Fenix. He went from one of the most beloved and highly requested Starcraft characters to one of the most raged-about heroes in a long time. Thanks to his shield and teleport, he is nearly impossible to damage in the early game, letting him out value every single hero in lane. He has two very powerful AAs as well as a strong uninterruptible damage and CC tool. Fighting against him feels oppressive and one-dimensional - either you break the shield and sneak a CC to break that very brief channel on Warp, or he gets away scot free. While he's no longer the overpowered monstrosity he was at launch, his release version still sticks in players' minds.
Genji
- Genji is one of the only heroes to singlehandedly rewrite an entire meta, even after being nerfed into a balanced state. His Swift Strike is the most powerful dash in the game, bar none. It has almost a screen's length of range, ignores terrain, deals decent damage, and resets its cooldown if Genji scores the kill within a brief window after hitting a target. That, a second dash with his trait, and Genji's on-demand Protected via Deflect made him the strongest dive hero in the game, able to duck into the backlines (even into forts) with extreme efficiency to score a kill, then escape unscathed. He was no slouch in teamfights either, with his Dragonblade cleaving through teams with ease. He was so oppressive, the entire meta reconfigured around to either counter or support his playstyle, seriously lowering the value of backline squishies in either case, and forcing the transition into Double Support compositions to minimize the windows in which Genji could score kills. He's been heavily and repeatedly nerfed as a result, with no signs of slowing down even a year after his release.
- Seven months after his release, Blizzard deliberately nerfed every Support in the game to lower the inherent strength of the Double Support comp which Genji prompted.note Given that Blizzard thought this an appropriate response rather than just nerfing Genji, one could argue that he's not responsible for Double Support Winter, but it's just as clear that he was a major influence on it. Of course, that still left him running rampant, so when Maiev was released, two months after that, she was explicitly positioned to hard-counter him and his ilk. If that's not proof that Genji has warped the meta, nothing is.
Greymane
- Greymane dwelled as a sort of "sleeper OP" all throughout 2017. While he wasn't performing insanely well at anything in particular, he is a Jack of All Stats who can do basically anything an Assassin is supposed to: he has good poke, burst, dive, escape, lane clear, mercing, and even tank busting. His only real weakness is a lack of self-sustain, which is made up for by his ability to stay at a safe distance until he needs to hop in and significantly greater health pool than his rivals bar Zul'jin, who needs to be at low health to do heavy damage. There is no situation where a Greymane is a bad Assassin pick... but, because he wasn't technically overperforming, he slid under the radar. Having said that, just one nerf — increasing the cooldown on his wolf!Q from 3sec to 4 — was enough to break his viability, and he appeared rarely during the 2018 competitive season.
Li-Ming
- As stated in Game-Breaker, Li-Ming can destroy almost an entire team herself and keep fighting with no difficulty; as a result, she has landed on the high end of this trope. Blizzard's Nerf was met with praise from the majority of the fandom since it made her much easier to fight. However, it would seem that the fandom will not shut up unless some nerf is given to her Trait, which completely resets her cooldowns if she was just nearby when an enemy got killed. As such, she maintained a high ban rate in Ranked for a long time.
- ...until 2017, when enough viable dive heroes (Genji and Tracer being the biggest examples) showed up to give her a headache. In addition, double tank comps are also popular, which Ming has trouble bursting down. Because of this, she's drifted to the other end of this trope, although only mildly.
Nova
- Nova gets hit with both ends of this. At low tiers she's the quintessential pubstomping hero that can kill someone before they can react. At the high end she's considered almost useless because she isn't very good at doing anything besides killing heroes — IE, all the things that actually win the match — and people are savvy to her tricks. (While she can provide an acceptable laning presence or work on objectives, she can only do this if someone babysits her, which is a big ask at that level.) After her changes in the Li-Ming patch, she more or less became entirely useless in both low and high levels of play.
- ...Until the Hanzo patch, when Stealth was updated. She was given a new activated skill that dropped a clone and stealthed her instantly. Despite the 60 second cooldown, it made up Nova's prime weakness - escape. Keep in mind that the clone literally switches with her, taking the hit for point-and-click abilities heading her way. Couple that with improved clone AI, and Nova suddenly became extremely safe. Not only was she a viable pick in higher leagues, she was one of the highest performing mages. Of course, that wasn't allowed to last, and Nova was nerfed into obscurity once again.
Probius
- Probius had a fairly poor launch, with low-range skills, too much setup needed, and not enough health to justify it. After some cooldown and range buffs however, Probius earned his niche as a Difficult, but Awesome area-denial mage/pusher hybrid that could pump out Chromie levels of burst. That was until two things; Pylon Overcharge receive a barrage of nerfs to help make Null Gate attractive, and Genji was released, ushering in a dive meta era that his squishy body couldn't take. Throw in his extreme reliance on Pylons and their setup time, and Probius could simply no longer keep up, reverting basically back to his launch status except without even the high impact Pylon Overcharge gave him.
Raynor
- Even being the game's poster boy and tutorial hero couldn't save Raynor from the bottom tier. As an AA assassin, he was outclassed in damage and utility by Valla, Greymane, and Zul'jin. As a pusher, he was outclassed by every specialist under the sun. He has the same health pool as Chromie, and his skills are nowhere near powerful enough to justify that. Maybe the most comical is his "trait", which gives him extra attack range... something that Ana, Nova, and Hanzo all get without using up a trait spot. Hero reworks usually result in split opinions, but everyone has been begging Blizzard to take a look at Raynor, which Blizzard finally agreed to do in 2018. Said rework made him go from trash tier to godlike, with busted amounts of damage pumped out with his AA (which, thanks to his new trait, works double-time as sustained damage and burst), a free powerful heal, and a combat stim that doubles as an escape. Additionally, he not only has all that damage and safety, but he kept his 6.5 range, giving him a massive edge over melee heroes and a significant way to outplay other ranged ones. While Blizzard eventually lowered practically all of Raynor's numbers, he's still a serious meta force due to his sheer versatility.
- Patch Notes: Raynor's pepper was bringing a bit too much salt.
Sgt. Hammer
- Sgt. Hammer is arguably the best siege hero in the game. She will probably make you rage - either because she can't get herself set up in a good spot (thanks to the other team making sure to always harass her away, as siege mode is a big "Kick me" sign) or because your team can never keep an eye on her until she tears your buildings to shreds. She also has been able to make people playing solo range for the fact that seeing a Sgt. Hammer more or less flat out forces you to babysit her, and sure enough, any Sgt. Hammers on the other team will have people glued to her, while yours will run away from her like she spews poison.
Sylvanas
- While Sylvanas has always had game balancing problemsnote Go read the gamebreaker page for that, she headed full-on into this trope during the Hanzo patch. With the buffs to minions and the weakening of structures, she pretty much became a win-harder hero. She was able to push more efficiently than she ever had before, especially when her team manages to get an objective, and making it almost impossible to come back.
- At very high levels, Sylvanas sits on the other end of this trope. Her ability to push down lanes is unrivaled... but she can easily be stopped by the simple decision of going to fight her. At higher levels, someone always comes to defend against them, which hampers her effectiveness. Despite how easy she is to counter, her "power pie" is almost entirely eaten by her trait just because it has such snowball potential. She's not a strong solo-laner due to a lack of sustain, she's not good at mercs or objectives thanks to low damage, and she's not good in teamfights because of her low-impact abilities. All she can do is lock down structures for her team to rip apart. Her later rework fixed her to be more of an actual Assassin, fixing that issue of her playstyle.
Tracer
- Launch Tracer was the next 'most annoying hero to fight'. Skillshots were practically impossible to land on her, as she can zip through the battlefield three times in a row if she has her charges; her auto attacks, while weak, can be done while moving to avoid any lost DPS. And she has that Recall skill, basically the Reset Button skill possessed by many other MOBA characters as ultimates on a basic skill* Granted, it doesn't restore health without a Storm Talent, but it's still an escape + Cleanse. Fighting Tracer can easily result of a failed Benny Hill chase gone wrong while she's killing you, and she's a lot more of a bane for immobile or skillshot-heavy heroes. Tracer single-handedly dethroned Li-Ming from the Game-Breaker status by being such a hard counter to her.
Anub'arak
- Anub'arak for the longest times was considered one of the worst tanks in the game. While he did have some decent utility with his ult and stuns, it didn’t make up for the fact that he was squishy and didn’t really put out that much damage. He was especially hurt when his Burrow Strike ability lost its invincibility which made him even worse. And then Blizzard added the armor mechanic, giving him 25 spell armor. This one simple change made him go from one of the worst tanks to one of the best tanks, making him the best counter against any team with a spellcaster, and launching him to the high-end of this trope. He’s been slowly nerfed since then and now his spell shield is tied to his W but he still one of the top tanks.
Artanis
- When it comes to Artanis, most people will agree that he's a very scary hero on paper when it comes to the late game, but he has a few key problems that put him under this trope. A couple examples are his problems sticking to targets due to his incredibly low attack range, how easy it is to kite him, and, as mentioned above, it's almost necessary to reach the late game before he has any sort of impact. His problems getting his basic attacks off also leads to him being surprisingly squishy, since his main source of survivability, his trait, is made more effective if he's actually able to attack his targets. He received a buff to his Twin Blades that will allow him to have a mini-version of his Zealot Charge as baseline, allowing him to close gaps on his foes a lot more easily. Come the Lucio patch, he's much more viable and scarier than ever, with a rework in his talents and abilities, such as being able to use Warp Prism during Blade Dash (allowing him to abduct enemy heroes from 2/3rds of the screen away), and several shield abilities which make him last a lot longer than usual. He's constantly pick-banned in ranked and unranked on larger maps as a result.
Arthas
- Arthas was one of the first major balance issues to hit Heroes of the Storm, thanks to a few generic talents that Warriors really shouldn't have had. Namely, Envenom, Heroes of the Storm's Alternate Company Equivalent to League of Legends' Ignite, which combined with his base kit, gave him far too much burst for a warrior, combined with his extreme resilience in teamfights thanks to Army of the Dead and Immortal Coil plus his extremely powerful crowd control, made his only weakness (a lack of mobility) largely an afterthought in the face of his ability to turn anyone who got within reach or caught by his root into cold cuts. Needless to say, Envenom was nerfed into the ground and later removed from Arthas entirely.
Chen
- More than any other hero, Chen has been a victim of the changing meta. He relies on his Brew to use abilities, which he has to recover by standing still and drinking. Doing this grants a large regenerating shield, but he's unable to take any actions while he does this, and any stuns or knockbacks will break the channel early. Originally he was a strong anti-backline tank that was hard to kill, with a major weakness to stuns. However, as the game evolved, stuns (and especially knockbacks) became more common, and Chen fell behind. He simply no longer filled a niche and was too easily countered. On top of that lot of underwhelming builds and generally weak Heroics have made Chen kinda boring, and he sits one of the most unpopular heroes in the game, with less play than Cho'Gall, an underpowered hero that requires two people in a party to even play. Thankfully blizzard finally reworked him in the June 18, 2019 patch, making him at last playable.
Cho'Gall
- Cho'Gall is on both ends of this. In professional play he's seen as the one of the weakest heroes (at one point having a 20% win rate, and only hovering around the bottom 40s at the highest). This is because Percent Health damage abilities absolutely wreck him, on top of only having 4 total bodies being a huge downside in competitive. The problem comes in when you meet him in the quick match where you can't counter pick; if you don't have any of the abilities that counter him and don't have optimal rotation skills, he may as well be named Game'Breaker. Not only does his abilities do stupid damage even at low levels, he has THE highest HP pool, meaning they can shirk off even ultimate abilities and not even lose half of their gigantic health bar, and if he has a Lt. Morales or Auriel, you might as well not even attempt to kill him.
D.Va
- D.Va tends to gather a lot of hate because of her obnoxious base mechanic: hopping in and out of her mech, effectively granting her 3 health bars in a fight while only granting 50% of a kill. Her standard rotation is "nearly die then pop Self Destruct at the last moment, any damage done to you as the pilot doesn't matter, hop back into your mech if they start to focus on you, die in your mech and escape on foot". Beyond that though, D.Va's kit is fairly underwhelming. Her AA is meh, she moves at 85% speed, her boosters are only average peel, and it's debatable whether Defense Matrix is that amazing. It awkwardly leaves her annoying to face, but never that scary.
Deathwing
The leader of the Black Dragonflight is a full-fledged playable raid boss. He is easily focused down by coordinated fire, but he is permanently Unstoppable, meaning that crowd-control effects do not work on him. These things make him a quintessential pubstomper, as "coordinated fire" basically does not occur in Quick Match, and what little CC he might face, he can shrug off. Additionally, while he cannot be healed by his allies, this is a very small downside in comparison to the vast amounts of damage he can put out, and the fact that, the more crowd control a character has, the more useless they are against him; his trait can reduce enemy characters to complete uselessness, giving his side a numerical advantage that can prove insurmountable. In general, a Deathwing only dies to their own overconfidence.Garrosh
- Garrosh is one of the oddest cases of a Scrappy in the game. Remember that comment at the top about how people ban new Heroes because they simply don't want to deal with them? Garrosh is the poster boy for this behavior. As released, he sat at around a 42% winrate, low but not criminal, but had a nearly 90% ban rate in draft modes across all leagues. The reason for that is simple; Garrosh was a serious one-trick pony. All of his skills were underwhelming, but combining Groundbreaker and Wrecking Ball together was essentially an unbeatable One-Hit Kill unless you threw a highly mobile hero or are fighting Medivh. Because of this, he was beyond frustrating to face, but also kinda boring to play. Nobody wants to deal with him, and no one is sad if they have to give him up. Unlike the D.Va example above, while he wasn't overall strong, he was scary to fight since you had to dodge every Groundbreaker or instantly die. The Groundbreaker was instead reworked into a stun and slow, making his Wrecking Ball take a lot more active planning and risk on Garrosh's part. It is telling however that Garrosh received a total rework of a skill in only six months. Keep in mind that Blizzard has shown to be stingy about completely reworking skills in general, nevermind so quickly.
Mal'Ganis
- Overloaded kits, thy name is Mal'Ganis. He's the ideal tank - a big health bar, high sustain, lots of easy-to-land AoE crowd control, solid mobility, an invulnerability button, and even plenty of damage - he has it all. The worst part is just how hard he is to punish; Night Rush is a crapshoot on whether he gets stunned or he stuns you, and Fel Claws has such a huge window that it doesn't matter if you play sloppy. To top it off, he's got an Awesome, but Impractical Heroic (Dark Conversion) that pretty much exists only to make the enemies rage. For some reason, Blizzard has been rather conservative in how they nerf him, chopping off small numbers here and there every few weeks but rarely affecting his overall power level. The combination of his ridiculous kit, high popularity, and Blizz's slow response has not bred a happy reaction to him.
Ragnaros
- Ragnaros the Firelord was a pure pain when he was first released. Interestingly it was not just because he was overpowered but because he could prolong game to ridiculous lengths. With his lava wave (that can clear an entire lane and soak XP without any bodies needed) and Molten Core (which allows him to absorb the damage applied to an allied building) he could make entire pushes or even objectives basically do nothing. This could prolong games to twice or more their normal length. Molten Core is so impactful, he had a nerf (major or minor) in every single patch from his release until it slowed down around Garrosh - ten heroes later.
Sonya
- Similar to Greymane, Sonya spent months as a top meta pick - not as a Warrior, but as an Assassin. Despite lacking the bulk and peel of a main tank, she deals lots of damage and is still tanky enough to avoid getting melted. She has no real weaknesses in a Bruiser role. She gets a lot of flak for overshadowing other heroes, basically being the sole viable Bruiser. It doesn't help that she has a strong gap-closer that's also an interrupt, usually delivering enough damage to one-shot squishies.
- In Quick Match, she is counted as a Bruiser, and is by far the tankiest of the sub-category. While she's nothing compared to a proper Warrior, against a team with Thrall, Ragnaros, or even Alarak, she's more than enough to make the game essentially "tank vs no tank". This was thankfully rectified in the 2018 Gameplay Updates, which gave Quick Match's algorithm a sweeping rework.
Varian
- Varian has had some balance complaints concerning his Level 4 talents. On release, Warbringer was a talent that replaced the slow on his Charge with a brief stun. Sounds fine, until you realise that not only was it a powerful engage tool, it could be used to interrupt channeled abilities or begin easy stunlock chains. On Taunt Varian it paired with his Heroic to do a lengthy stunlock on his own, while on the other two it was simply too reliable of an interrupt for a high-damage Assassin. Blizzard eventually nerfed it to death... but the only other Talent at that rank is Shield Wall, which makes his Parry block all damage. While technically not "overpowered" (it's really the only thing keeping Varian relevant in the meta), it's annoying as hell. Parry is a short-cooldown skill with two charges, making Shield Wall the most spammable Protected in the game. This allows him to constantly No-Sell major damage at no risk or loss. Eventually, the Fenix patch made Shield Wall remove Parry's second charge, though in compensation it halves the cooldown to 5 seconds. Warbringer was also made more appealing by reducing Charge's cooldown to 1/3 of its previous duration, and allowing Varian to target allies with it, solving the "I have no way to disengage" problems that afflict many melee damage-dealers.
- Varian had the problem of being largely useless for the first nine levels of a match. While there are certainly Heroes who aren't fully functional until they unlock their Heroic, Varian less needs the spell(s) and more the stat boosts; and, until he gets them, he's pretty much unable to contribute to his team. This led to him basically disappearing from high levels of play. The fix to this also came in the Fenix patch: his Heroics were moved to Lv.4, trading spots with the (extremely powerful) talents that previously resided there. Varian players now have a much shorter waiting period before they're able to get into the fight. This has led to him showing up at HGC again, though not frequently (and with a pretty poor winrate).
- The fact that Varian is a Multi-Class hero has given the matchmaker fits. In Quick Match he was not counted as a Warrior but instead an Assassin, but that meant he could end up being the only (potential) tank in a 10-person match, giving his team an unfair advantage. When this was changed with the D.Va patch, this also caused the opposite problem, where people would choose his Assassin Heroics and leave their opponents with the only tank. Even worse, there is no statistical way for the matchmaker to place Varian correctly, as (according to the replay-analyzing website hotslogs.com) players split roughly down the middle
in terms of choosing his tank ability versus the two DPS Heroics. Either Blizzard must nerf one of his two classes into oblivion or must live with the fact that, if he is properly balanced, he by definition cannot be sorted properly by a matchmaker. (They appear to have decided that the real lesson is to never again release a multi-class Hero; when the classes were reassigned at the end of 2018, he became a Bruiser.)
Xul
- Xul is an amazing hero capable of doing almost everything well, to the point where he ended up holding the highest winrate in the game in the span of a week. Understandably, many people were asking for him to be toned down, but he tended to get a pass from some people due to being a fan favorite from Diablo II. Blizzard eventually brought down a pretty heavy Nerf on him, which brought him in line with the other heroes while keeping his strengths, meaning that going up against him no longer meant a near auto-loss, though he is most certainly still viable.
Abathur
- While each Hero gets a difficulty rating (from "Easy" on Raynor and Li Li to "Very Hard" on Medivh), there are two real difficulty tiers in the game. Simple Heroes shine if their player understands how said Hero works. Complex Heroes require the player's entire team to understand those things. Abathur is definitely one of the latter. While good Abathurs can be game-changing, he's incredibly unorthodox — everything he does, he does in weird, indirect ways, and he can only be played to maximum effect if all five players are leaning into his strengths and playing around his weaknesses. If that isn't happening, you'll have 4v5 teamfights all day long, which is a major disadvantage when Heroes is tilted so heavily towards teamfights. Besides, Sturgeon's Law applies to Abathur players, giving the haters more reason to be vocal about his state. If a gameplay hate topic isn't about Murky or Nova, it'll definitely be about Abathur.
Ana
- Ana players, especially ones in Quick Match, tend to get a lot of flak. That's because all of her skills (including her healing) require precise skillshots, something not every player can consistently do. Despite high theoretical numbers, many factors can render Ana useless: not just missing her heals, but allies deciding to dodge them (which happens all the time). She also had almost no ability to heal herself. That was fine in Overwatch, where two healers on a six-person team was and is a pretty normal team-comp... but in Heroes and their teams of five, the second healer is typically the first to go, which led to Ana being extraordinarily easy to bully off. Blizzard eventually gave her some self-sustain via auto-attack lifesteal, but even so, people who enjoy playing Ana because of her skill ceiling admit that she needs more buffing.
Auriel
The Archangel of Hope was released as a true Combat Medic, having an AoE heal which could be fired every four seconds but only being able to charge her heal's Energy Meter by doing combat damage (a bit like to the original FF7 Limit Break). To aid this, and for flavor reasons, she can also use her trait Bestow Hope to channel an ally's damage into her meter as well. The only problem was that the Energy she gained was incredibly low; she needed a strong hyper-carry, pumping out absurd amounts of DPS, to function at maximum capacity — or a Cho'gall, allowing her to cheat by charging herself with two players' worth of damage at once. As such, she languished in obscurity and niche team comps (I mean, Cho'gall??) for several years. Finally, Blizzard buffed the amount of Energy she gained, almost doubling her charge rates and allowing her to take a place in the Nexus that amounted to more than "Joke Character."The Lost Vikings
- Speaking of unconventional gameplay, The Lost Vikings are the mother of Difficult, but Awesome. Their strength is the ability to have three bodies, all of them soaking each lane and gaining constant XP without the need to rotate. They require a large amount of micro-management and constant awareness of not only your team and your enemies, but also where all of you are. Naturally, most beginner players will skip this entirely, instead grouping them as three and controlling them like an inefficient brawler hero. Even players who do split them tend to lack the required care, feeding far more XP than they're soaking. Quick Match Vikings are something of The Dreaded for many just due to the high chance they're not going to do anything useful.
Lt. Morales
- Lt. Morales maybe one of the most unique samples of this trope. She is pretty much the best support when it comes to healing and can efficiently heal her team right back up to full health in the middle of a fight. Her tradeoff is being a Squishy Wizard: she can’t put out damage, has very little health, and has only one self-peeling ability that is quite difficult to use. The end result is that she can easily be scared off or killed if her defenders don't position right. The problem is the tactics of positioning and outmaneuvering opponents isn't really a skill that newer players have a great grasp of. As such, Morales is practically invincible to them; they'd either duel the enemy she's healing, to no effect, or chase after Morales like it's Benny Hill time, to no effect. She is, despite being a dedicated healer, a quintessential pubstomper — someone who is only effective against an uncoordinated opposition. But then you get to higher levels of play and her effectiveness drops off dramatically, because people have figured out how to divorce her from her team and leave her vulnerable.
Lúcio
- Lúcio's been on both ends of this several times. On launch, Lúcio provided him and his entire with team endless sustain and great chase or escape. It wasn't unusual to see an entire team hanging around on the enemy's backdoor for the whole match after they got even the slightest upper hand, just off of how much AoE healing Lúcio could pump out. After that, he was slaughtered by a series of nerfs, cutting his healing by 33% and leaving him gimped and unplayable. A few months later however, Blizzard gave him a several hundred health buff that brought him back into the meta full-force. No longer a healer monster, Lúcio is instead used to set up crazy ganks with Speed Boost and make them unpunishable with Sound Barrier. He can also shake up teamfights with Sound Barrier, since it might as well be a teamwide Divine Shield if the targets aren't bursted through it. While not the most popular or powerful Support, he is one of the most impactful, and ergo frustrating to face.
Tassadar
- Another one of those memetically worthless characters, Tassadar has been in the dust for ages. An uneasy compromise between a High Templar Squishy Wizard and a Sentry White Mage, he did some damage on his own but was best used to babysit heroes like Valla and Tracer, whose weaknesses he could easily compensate for. He is, in that sense, not really a hero in his own right but rather a hero-enabler, which makes him basically impossible to balance. The end result was a total rework; he was shifted to the Assassin pool and reconfigured as a genuine offensive threat (which also pleased StarCraft fans who disagreed with his flavor) instead of the weird half-and-half he was before. Despite this, he sunk even further into the Scrappy heap: a lot of people realized they actually enjoyed his old playstyle, which was now gone.
Whitemane
- While her kit looks fairly straightforward, when played out it becomes a much different story. Whitemane boasts assassin-level damage, all of which is directly converted into health for allies. Spreading Zeal is simple thanks to its long duration, and Desperate Plea can function as that spreading tool or as a major single-target heal depending on the situation. Diving her is essentially out of the question, since she'll be recovering tonnes of health as you're trying to kill her, giving her team plenty of time to converge and end you. While nerfs have brought her closer in line, she's still one of the most detested healers.
Zarya
- Zarya might be the most insane version of this trope. When she was first released, she was considered probably one of the worst characters in the game with a win-rate around 30%. It was so bad she was actually buffed just a few days later (It usually takes two weeks before a hero gets a patch). After that, she went on to achieve a 71.5% win-rate, surpassing the previous Game-Breaker Xul, which was formerly the highest of any hero ever. Blizzard nerfed her only a day later, and she's been middle-tier ever since.
openA bizarre occurrence
So, Vif119 is currently involved in an Edit War on YMMV.Transformers Beast Wars 2021 over whether an example fits Fan Dumb, Hatedom, or Hate Dumb. The twist this time is that he’s at war with himself, as the majority of recent edits to that page are him editing that example. Any solutions?
Edited by GeneralGiganopenMasters of the Universe Revelation story being troped even though it is incomplete. Western Animation
I'm not intending to add more fuel to the many discussions going on regarding MOTUR and its "lying creator" and/or "woke" issues but rather to ask a question on the presentation of the story itself and how tvtropes should respond to it.
The MOTUR story was conceived, created, written, produced, edited, and scored to be a cohesive 10 episode mini-series. Although all 10 episodes are virtually complete, Netflix has decided to release the story in two five-episode binge bundles because... reasons.
So all we have is part one with a part two release date still TBD. As a result, the story page for the mini-series contains tropes, that in all honesty, can't be justified until the entire story has been told.
Just a cursory glance shows tropes like: Bad Guy Wins, Chuck Cunningham Syndrome, Death by Cameo, Decoy Protagonist, Defrosting Ice Queen, Demoted to Extra that only describe the context of episodes 1-5 and are very, very likely to change or even be invalidated when episodes 6-10 drop.
I understand the edit wars surrounding "lying creator" and the various "girl power / woke" issues have led to a call for page locking.
I'm wondering if the page lock, if implemented, should extend to include the main story and character pages until the entire story drops.
If not, is there another way to address making tropers aware that it's only a half-told story and there are inappropriate / unjustified tropes that one should think twice about adding at this point?
Otherwise it seems there's going to be a considerable amount of revising and re-editing of the trope list when the full story is told which renders the current tvtropes content somewhat pointless.
Edited by rva98014openNASCAR wonking
BNSF1995
has recently added two entries to wonk about how an episode of a certain show was delayed due to the 6 hour rain delay of Dayota 500 (one on the Trivia page of the episode in question
and one on the YMMV page of the show itself
). Both entries (moreso the latter) are rather long and very complain-y.
openLaconic pages for indexes?
I've noticed that Ghostfreak 45 has been creating laconic pages for Breathing Index, Luck Tropes, Pregnancy Tropes, Please Reflect On This Index, Fairy Tropes, Unicorn Works, Mermaid Media, and more.
The thing is, though, that the laconic is pretty much the same as what's written on the index itself. After all, it's an index, not an actual trope. For example, the Laconic for Breathing Index says "An index of tropes about breathing and/or respiring" while the actual page says "An index of tropes about how characters breathe or respire." Those are pretty much exactly the same.
Is this allowed? Or should all these Laconic pages be cutlisted?
openUndermined By Reality cuts
These were cut from Undermined By Reality citing "The MLP examples are all either Broken Aesop or Complaining."
- My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic:
- "The Cutie Re-Mark" has An Aesop that you should not allow circumstances to get in the way of your friendships, as seen in Starlight Glimmer's Start of Darkness when her friend got his cutie mark and moved away, which had near-disastrous consequences. However, the same thing happened between Twist and Apple Bloom earlier in the series. Twist's voice actress moved away from Vancouver (where the series was produced), meaning they have been unable to interact as friends ever since Twist got her cutie mark, which has gone without consequence. In the same season where Starlight Glimmer was introduced, when the similarly demoted-to-background character Babs Seed got her cutie mark, Apple Bloom went out of her way to prove she still considers her a friend, yet the writers have done nothing to suggest that Apple Bloom and Twist are still friends, even offscreen.
- Diamond Tiara's Heel–Face Turn in "Crusaders of the Lost Mark" was intended to show that you can be more than just a bully and become a better person if you wanted. But despite the writers wanting to give her and Silver Spoon more episodes showing off this Character Development, the higher ups turned the idea down, believing their story to be "over". Thus, they had no plot relevance afterward as the writers were not permitted to depict them as anything other than bullies.
- The episode "Fame and Misfortune" teaches that while some people will miss the point of and unfairly criticize your work, the most important thing is that others will get and appreciate it. But the episode's "writer", M.A. Larson, denounced the episode, feeling that the criticisms the background ponies brought up were valid (notably, all the complaints lampooned in the episode actually were addressed in the show, meaning the writers agreed they were issues but called the complainers out anyways), and that audiences would miss the moral entirely due to the episode's allegorical nature and Dear Negative Reader undertones. He tried to rewrite the episode to fix this, but the higher ups wouldn't let him do it any other way, prioritizing their desired story over audiences getting and appreciating it.
- "Shadow Play" has the lesson that you should not assume the worst of others and should get both sides of the story before treating them as irredeemable. This is undermined by the next major villain, Cozy Glow, who the characters and narrative would treat as unquestionably evil despite making no attempts to explain or figure out why/how a child could turn out so evil. The official reason that she was written this way being "It seemed fun and subversive at the time" suggests that the writers have gotten tired of, and no longer endorse, the show's pro-redemption themes and messages, and they would proceed to never forgive a villain again: even King Sombra's well-received sympathetic backstory and traits introduced in the Expanded Universe were ignored entirely in favor of making him a Generic Doomsday Villain, while Ahuizotl was retconned into a guardian spirit unfairly painted as a villain in order to sidestep the need for a redemption to make him a good guy and bring Daring Do's story to a close.
Broken Aesop doesn't apply as it's events outside the work causing this as opposed to the event within the episode. (BH was deemed not to apply if broken by subsequent works as it's about the specific work giving the Aesop contending itself at the time.) The last part of the last entry I can say is complaining and misuse (Neighsay, Garble, and Caballeron get become genuinely nicer redemptions), not sure how the rest are excessively negative given the inherent negativity of Undermined By Reality. Should it be restored and/or the negativity (if someone can point out where exactly it's excessive) fixed?
Worth noting the examples were previously cut by a separate tropes without edit reason, but restored per ATT
.
openCharacters/OrangeIsTheNewBlack
I'm doing dewicking for Transgender and I came across Orange Is the New Black - Black Inmates - it is custom titled to say "Black Inmates", but the location of the page itself is Characters.Orange Is The New Black Black. This is the same for the other ethnicity pages: Characters.Orange Is The New Black Hispanic (Hispanic Inmates), Characters.Orange Is The New Black White (White Inmates), and Characters.Orange Is The New Black Asian (Asian Inmates), along with Characters.Orange Is The New Black Other for "Other Characters". Custom titles shouldn't be used this way, but should the "Inmates" part just be removed or should the pages be moved to what they say they are?
Edited by Crossover-EnthusiastopenNo Title
On Trivia.Masters Of The Universe Revelation, the following was added by Richardkriener0
:
and was then removed by Zornech
who left the following edit reason:
Likewise this was added by Wolf of Blades
:
and was removed by Krimson Condor King
with the following edit reason:
Both examples were added back by Corvus IX
who did not give any edit reason.
openCustom Titling redlinks
Self-explanatory. Can redlinks be custom titled to include special characters and the like?
Edited by AdeptopenNo Title Film
13 days ago I removed the following from Star Trek V: The Final Frontier:
Now, it should be noted that the movie's failings aren't all Shatner's fault. We can also thank Executive Meddling for all the forced "humor", while the 1988 WGA strike short-circuited the screenwriting and the infamous Special Effect Failure was due to ILM being too busy with a few other projects to work on the film.
Still, the basic concept was Shatner's idea (although making Sybok Spock's brother was a Harve Bennett decision), and he knew about the studio's humor requirements before he even began work. Gene Roddenberry himself had expressed strong reservations about the pitch; he had good reason to be concerned, as he had previously written his own story
about the crew meeting God and hated the result. (Though it should also be noted that Roddenberry's own counteroffered idea was, as it had been since the second movie, for the Enterprise crew to go back in time and either stop or commit the JFK assassination.) But Shatner persisted with the idea of Kirk beating God. Star Trek and religious topics have always been uneasy bedfellows; Roddenberry's well-documented atheism practically forced the series to always turn whatever "God" it ran into (the being in this movie as well as the Q Continuum) into Sufficiently Advanced Aliens. Deep Space Nine is the only series to pull it off, and Trekkies are divided on even that. Nevertheless, many fans prefer to ignore this entry entirely and simply go from the fourth movie directly to the sixth. Frontier is also the only one of the original films to have never been given a Director's Cut; Shatner has always wanted to do it, but Paramount Pictures likewise refuses to let him.
This movie isn't a total write-off, though: Star Trek V also features plenty of Character Development scenes between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy (the Bookends with the three camping are quite enjoyable), a brilliant backstory scene involving McCoy and his father, and has a collection of well-imagined individual sequences such as Coming in Hot with a shuttlecraft. Consensus is that while Shatner's storytelling abilities might be a bit on the weak side, he certainly had an eye for good setpieces. Josh Marsfelder at Vaka Rangi, and his commenters, have much more to say about what is right as well as wrong with The Final Frontier
.
I left the following edit reason:
12 days ago The Amazing Blachman
added this:
With the following edit reason:
openNSFW Offsite Links on Work Page Webcomic
The page for The Perry Bible Fellowship has a section for tropes occurring in individual strips, several of which include NSFW links. I don't think it meets the criteria for pornography, as it's an adult humor comic and not used for titillation, but there's uncensored breasts and genitalia, depictions of sex, etc. I was under the impression that this was against the rules (or at least, other NSFW works like Oglaf have notices on their pages to not link directly to NSFW content).
The page itself is kind of messy to begin with, since I'm not sure if there really needs to be a divide between recurring tropes and ones that occur in just one or two strips, but the main thing that caught my attention was the links being on the page. Is this in need of cleanup?
openHow do I make a self demonstrating page?
Hello, I would like to make a self demonstrating page for the original Freddy Krueger as portrayed by Robert Englund. I’ve looked in the templates section of the website but can’t find one for self demonstrating pages…did I miss it? If not, could somebody make a template? I would appreciate any help I can get.
openTrivia and YMMV pages for Creators
A few Creator pages for TV channels still have Trivia and/or YMMV subpages, namely:
- Trivia.Comedy Central
- Trivia.Family Channel
- Trivia.Teletoon
- Trivia.Treehouse TV
- YMMV.Adult Swim
- YMMV.Disney XD
- YMMV.Nickelodeon
- YMMV.Nick Jr
Also, YMMV.Nicktoons has entries for the actual Nicktoons channel, not just the franchise itself.
Edited by AmourMittsopenRomantic Comedy Index
I don't think this is actually an issue, but just to be on the safe side:
While doing some cross-wicking, I noticed RomanticComedy.Anime And Manga wasn't indexing. That made me initially wonder if it was an index, or a trope page in serious need of context, but since Romantic Comedy itself was an index, I realized the issue was that the Anime & Manga page was listed as a Subpage of a Trope.
I took the liberty of editing the page type to check "Does Indexing" and, assuming it is meant as an index, it seems to be working as intended now.
Was I right to make RomanticComedy.Anime And Manga an index or should I revert it? Everything suggests "yes" but y'never know...
openNo Title Western Animation
Can I get some help expanding this article I made?
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fanfic/PhineasAndFerbTheAdventuresOfBeatriceFlynnTheRobotGirl
I'd do it myself. But I generally have a bit to do on my plate, so I don't really have the time to do it. Also, I'm generally bad at trying to figure out how to link tropes together. Seriously, I only recently relearned how to set up folders.
Please help.
openQuestionable edit on School Setting Simulation.
On School Setting Simulation, Sanmitvtropes not only unilaterally changed one of the description paragraphs without consensus, but they also deleted the Standoff (2018) entry because they claim the game itself has been pulled from distribution.
Courtesy link here
.
openEdit war
On My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic S9 E25 "The Ending of the End – Part 2" DragonMaster408 removed
Heroes' Frontier Step then BrianKT reverted it
then DragonMaster408 removed it again
and then BrianKT left an edit reason on the page "So Discord kick-started Equestria's counter attack in the most epic way possible not to amend for his mistake and because he truly cares about his friends? Was it still for selfish reasons?" without readding it, seems an edit war has erupted.

In light of the release of the second trailer
for Venom: Let There Be Carnage, I want to put to rest a seemingly unresolved query as to what pronouns should be used when referring to the Venom symbiote. Being a symbiote, it has no defined gender or sex, choosing to assume the form of its host and never refers to itself by any pronouns but "we" across all continuities. Same goes for the SPUMC (Sony Pictures Universe of Marvel Characters) version of the character where it briefly possesses Anne and then morphs into a female form. In the same universe, however, Tom Hardy's Eddie Brock refers to Venom with male pronouns (which his comic book counterpart never really does so), which Venom never objects to, so while there might not be a biological sex, the symbiote seems to identify as male. Gernerally speaking though, the entity formed when Eddie and the symbiote merge together is also called Venom and the combined form is referred to with male pronouns. I just want to know what the consensus is though about what pronouns pertain to the SPUMC symbiote itself before officially altering any associated work pages.
Edited by lemarhoffman