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openRecreating character page for Yumi's Cells Webcomic
Edit: I'm looking for feedback on character images now.
I want to make sure it's okay to recreate Yumi's Cells, which was apparently cut because it didn't have content.
While I'm at it, I also have a few questions about how I should handle spoilers between the characters page and the main Yumi's Cells page. Before I edited the work page, it seemed to mostly spoiler out things regarding the breakup of the second boyfriend and the existence of the third boyfriend.
- If the entry is about the main character's romance, should I put it exclusively in the relevant boyfriend's folder (e.g. a Rejected Marriage Proposal)?
- Should I keep the second boyfriend's breakup spoilered on the character page, or would that be too self-fulfilling? How about non-breakup-related things like the bait-and-switch of the proposal that turned out to be just a regular gift... which turned out to be a wedding ring?
- Should I put a spoilers-off warning on the third boyfriend? I think he has enough non-spoilery tropes about his personality to not be an all-white folder, but the spoilers on the romantic tropes might defeat the purpose.
- The work page has quite a few entries with bullet points for multiple people. If the entries have spoilers for a character that would have a folder, should I move the character's bullet point to their folder? If the entry would lose most of its bullet points that way, should I rewrite it to be more general? (e.g. rewrite the Shirtless Scene entry to say all the boyfriends have such a scene at the high point in their relationships and move the specifics to their respective folders)
- On a different note, should I put a three-trope threshold on the Cell characters before splitting them off from the humans they belong to?
openEdit war
On 27th November
, Shiroyama added this.
- Some people have even considered nature itself and even THE PLANET EARTH to be Eldritch Abominations.
It's general example ("some people" practically means absolutely nothing), ZCE (how it would count as Eldritch Abominations?), and - to be blunt - make no sense. So I removed it about six hours later, pointed out in edit reason that "Some people" misuse tropes too, so don't mind them. (because I think citing "some people" is the worst issue of this entry, it might be simple ZCE if they state the source myth).
Today, they put it back with minor change
.
open Crowner Announcement.
The Undertale Cleanup Thread
has an active crowner on whether or not Characters.Deltarune Kris should have an Ambiguous Gender entry or not. Explanations in the crowner itself.
Please do not discuss the subject on the thread, as it has already been heavily discussed and reached no conclusion - thus the crowner.
This is an Announcement only. Do not reply to this post.
openTrying to Avoid an Edit War Videogame
Recently, I modified a couple of entries on Dragon Age – Anders, removing the The Extremist Was Right entry and reformatting the information and moving it to Well-Intentioned Extremist. Before I did this, I took it to the Is This An Example
thread, where I was mostly ignored despite posting several times. Now, I previously did the same thing for the same entry on the main page for TEWR after I got agreement from the same thread that it wasn't an example, so despite lack of replies, I thought I was okay.
Shortly after I did this, Asherinka reverted the entry back and edited it to have more neutral wording (or tried to at least). The topic for the Dragon Age fandom is major Flame Bait and Anders himself has a Broken Base, so I'm trying not to let this devolve into an argument over whether or not he was right.
My big hang up on TEWR vs WIE is that I believe they are mutually exclusive tropes. And, for Anders, I do not believe he meets the requirements for TEWR.
- The Extremist Was Right:
- Terrible as Anders' actions were, a lot of supplementary material suggests that escalating the mage/Templar conflict to open war was the right thing to do, since the status quo only weakened the mages' position. The events of Inquisition can further cement this idea; if Leliana is named Divine, one of her reforms to the Chantry is the dissolving of the Circle system, granting the mages their freedom and creating widespread mage acceptance, giving Anders (and the rebel mages who agreed with his points, if not his actions) everything he wanted. Even the endings that see the Circles rebuilt come with some major reformations.
- The flavor text of the Magehunter shield in Inquisition tells of a previous misuse of the Right of Annulment. In 3:09 Towers, twenty-five years after the Right was first granted, the Circle of Magi in Antiva City was annulled to cover up the fact that its Knight-Captain was a serial killer who murdered over a hundred mages out of pure bigotry. While the Seekers eventually hunted him down and punished him, they assisted the Templars in covering up the incident, leaving the rest of the Circles completely ignorant of the truth, and there is no mention of them punishing the Knight-Commander for Annulling a Circle under false pretenses. Given that background chatter in the second game reveals that Meredith had gone over Elthina's head and petitioned the Divine for the Right, it paints a very clear picture of what might have happened to the Gallows if Anders had not provoked Meredith into jumping the gun instead of waiting for the Divine's permission.
Hello83433: I'm a bit concerned about [this particular TEWR example] in general, because it relies a lot on player perception and it seems to be used as an Audience Reaction, because there's hardly anything in-universe that is justifying the actions taken. The trope itself says the people whom everyone thought were completely right and in-universe it's noted that many, including mages, denounce Anders' actions. The supporting material (i.e. comics and supplementary novels) also have that the character is dead, because some events that occur do not occur in a universe where he lives.
Overall, this seems more like someone trying to convince others that the actions were right, when they moreso fall under Your Terrorists Are Our Freedom Fighters (and he's already listed under). Thoughts?
Reply from Afterward: Sorry I haven't said this before, but I think there's enough negative reactions to Anders' actions in-universe that he doesn't qualify (and while the Mage situation in Dragon Age was already pretty bad before Anders blew up the Chantry, there's no real evidence that it got better, just that the conflict became open), although I'm not super familiar with the inner workings of the trope.
Hello83433: Reposting because I think it got lost in the page transition. After cutting Anders' example from The Extremist Was Right, it was added to his character page. The first bullet point text is exactly the same as TEWR, and the second point is diving deep into begging the question and slippery slope territory, but I wanted to bring the full example here again just in case.
[Example In Question]
Reply from nrjxll: Honestly, I think there's a seed of a valid example buried in there, in that Inquisition does pretty clearly show that Anders's broader goal of dragging these festering problems out in the open led to necessary reforms that probably weren't going to happen otherwise. What it doesn't validate is the method he did that by. (Just speaking personally, one of the few points I found myself majorly agreeing with Vivienne - who I rather disliked on the whole - on was that tying the cause of mage independence to a terrorist attack that killed hundreds of people was a huge PR self-own.)
BTW, the definition of The Extremist Was Right is distinctly not helpful here. I don't see anything about other characters in a story needing to say as much to qualify an example the way you originally cited, but the description's not all that long in general.
Hello83433: I was going off of Laconic and the first sentence of the description, although I agree it could be written clearer. The heavy disagreement on his methods is what puts him out of TEWR territory for me. Although, now that I'm looking at it, would it be a better fit for Well-Intentioned Extremist? Anders seems to fit under the first and/or third types (the problem is the means and/or consequences) just based on in-universe reactions to his "solution".
I don't want this OP to be too long, so just to sum up I don't believe the example fits The Extremist Was Right primarily due to in-universe backlash against Anders and his actions. I suppose moving it to YMMV might be an option, but to avoid an edit war I'm asking here to get a consensus one way or the other.
Edited by Hello83433openQuick apology about a dumb edit Literature
Hello! Apologies if this isn't the correct place to put this.
I just wanted to apologize real quick about a dumb series of edits I made on the new trope Tourist Bump. I had changed the Twilight example based on a previous wording, only to see too late that it already got reworded by someone else. It wasn't my intention to screw it up like this; I tried changing it back but I screwed it up even more. I'm sorry about this mess; please feel free to change it back. I could even try doing it myself if necessary.
openEdit warring on NightmareFuel page Web Original
On Nov 26th 2021 at 7:52:12 AM, ~TVTroperZelda made this edit on NightmareFuel.Hololive:
- The 6th generation of Hololive JP seems to be taking some inspiration from Myth and Council, in that all the members are based around one theme...but instead of being a Ragtag Bunch of Misfits or an Omniscient Council of Vagueness, Holo X is a secret society whose leader, La+ Darknesss, desires to Take Over the World. And if it weren’t for her being briefly captured and having her vast powers and intellect locked behind a system of Power Limiters, she very easily could.
On Nov 27th 2021 at 12:55:48 AM, I changed the last sentence to:
- [...], she potentially could.
with the Edit Reason being:
On Nov 28th 2021 at 3:37:42 AM, TV Troper Zelda changed the last sentence back to:
- [...], she very easily could.
without giving any reason for the revert/bringing it up for discussion.
I believe this is clear case of edit-warring, especially when the other troper justified their edit when they didn't.
Also, I call the last sentence out for Speculative Troping, since it's never actually shown in the work itself that "she very easily could Take Over the World", never mind that it blatantly ignores other factors in the same universe beside herself, and thus is not an accurate example at all.
Edited by AsoktencheaopenJackpot21 edit war in Ladybug's fridge page Western Animation
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fridge/MiraculousLadybug
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Tropers/Jackpot21
Yep.
Though this time, hopefully this is a more straightforward case that won't turn into a shouting match.
So yesterday Jackpot was on the Ladybug fridge page and removed a few entries, a concept I personally find rather poor in taste. For some of the removed bits Jackpot gives a reason.
...
Alya already established herself worthy of being a heroine nor has Cholé been contrasted with the other heroes. Marinette and Adrien have had several slip ups that go ignored like Juleka, but even then that isn’t enough to say she’s a terrible liar.
...
TLDR on the first one, there are a series of fridge observations regarding Chloe B and her (fanbase aggravating) rise and fall in hero worth that compare and contrast and several of them, though not all of them, were removed by Jackpot. For example how Marinette's stress dreams in Sentibubbler where Chloe (and Cat Blanc) appeared could be because Marinette was more hurt by the Chloe fall than she lets on, or that she sees self-hypocrisy in giving Alya her miraculous full time (the latter part Jackpot keeps), and how one can contrast Alya specifically distracting Marinette's friends in another episode with a fake bad ankle, thus helping Marinette sneak off and drawing a comparison with how Chloe would act in a 'oh hey an Akuma, time to be Queen Bee' scenario in season 3 at several points. (This builds off several other fridges by several others, including myself, in contrasts with Chloe with things like her replacement's costume, the hero King Monkey and how his development contrasts with that of Queen Bee, and an entry of mine that Jackpot had deleted some time ago comparing Chloe's actions to that of the other temp heroes in one episode)
So, while I decided that my own entry on Juleka's noticeable secret identity slip ups was probably not worth fighting for, I restored most of what Jackpot had removed. The page is edited fairly often by myself and others, so these entries were all either by others or ideas I had submitted and had been edited by others into an new form over the course of other edits over the course of months (being tweaked with words and links by others to better the entry), noting to Jackpot where the Alya and Chloe comparison stuff had come from and a bit on how I don't see the problem in people having their own fridge conclusions you don't agree with.
Like people can think about stuff in the plot that isn't being said aloud that you don't necessarily agree with, and it can still be there.
So afterwards I have a bit of a spree of ideas and do a few more edit bits into Ladybug's fridge page, a few more ideas, a few expanding sentences for context, a few spelling corrections, some stuff like that.
Then comes the Edit War, where Jackpot removes a few of the same entries again. The removed entries the first and second time by Jackpot are.
...
- Trixx is in the Miracle Box when Luka rushes to retrieve Sass. It’s likely that Alya occasionally returns her Kwami to the box to throw off Shadow Moth, as was done in episodes like Hack-San.
...
Which I had expanded on after putting back with a point that she did just that to enhance the fridge argument.
...
there are two options: either Marinette, who initially seemed not too taken aback by her betrayal, was far more hurt by it than she let on, or
being removed from
- As for why Chloé is in the dream, there are two options: either Marinette, who initially seemed not too taken aback by her betrayal, was far more hurt by it than she let on, or it’s likely Marinette recognizes her hypocrisy in letting Alya keep the Fox Miraculous even though Shadow Moth knows her true identity while she benched Chloé for the exact same reason.
...
This entry below, which was one that, while I had created the original one, had been edited and improved by others since including Jackpot over the course of two months into the above form.
...
- Gabriel was the one to figure out a creative plan for Optigami when Nathalie was convinced it was a failure after the straightforward spying mission went nowhere. Gabriel is a designer by trade after all; he's a bit more creative than her.
...
And his other 'I had created the base idea that others had then expanded, tweaked, and improved on' entry.
...
- This episode continues Season 4's subtle contrast between Chloé's worthiness and that of other temporary wielders. When Alya sees a brewing Akuma event in episode, and Marinette requests a distraction, she immediately fakes a bad ankle to let Marinette slip away and prety much ensure she'd have no chance to use Trixx this time. Last season, Chloé took multiple Akuma attacks as a moment to be Queen Bee first and foremost.
...
This being Jackpot's argument for removing stuff I had put back.
...
This page is for pointing out certain details that aren’t addressed in the series, not for people to make their own conclusions. The entries I removed were either speculative, redundant, or are your interpretations.
...
Like...not entirely sure what the point of that is. Going 'this is a plausible reason why the Kwami was back in the box when he would otherwise not be', especially with an example of that happening in the series, feels like it covers that threshold.
Though given that four fridge entries, by multiple people adding and working on them, got removed twice in an editing sequence...more straightforward right?
openRedundant image links pages
Fireblood has created dozens upon dozens of redundant Image Links pages. They always consist of an image (not a link to the image, but the image itself) that is identical to the one on the work's main page, and nothing else. This
is the latest one I found, and despite me having cutlisted all of these redundant IL pages over the course of several months, I'm still finding them.
openDisabled in the Adaptation Entry Question Live Action TV
This is on the Disabled in the Adaptation page. Unmarked spoilers ahead!
- The Walking Dead:
- Two surviving (as of this edit) characters from the source material, Sophia Peletier and Carl Grimes, both die in the show by becoming walkers.
My assumption is that in the show, Sophia becomes a walker and Carl shoots himself in the head to prevent himself from reanimating. And even then, is this really an example since the two characters in the entry clearly don't demonstrate any disabilities while they're alive. Thanks.
openCut trope being re-added (and other misuse?)
Hodor For King added this to YMMV.Elysium
- Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped: There has been a [[defence https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/whats-the-most-cringeworthy-alternate-history-youve-ever-read.47523/page-758?post=22129077#post-22129077
]]of the supposed lack of subtlety of the film:
Elysium seems stark to us because there's no massive propaganda machine in the movie itself constantly telling us that the system of the people of the Elysium universe Is A Good Thing, Actually. We're not automatically primed to dismiss the concerns of the people of Earth in Elysium in that sense.But let's be honest with ourselves - Elysium is happening right now. Millions of people go without life-saving medical care in America for want of a way for them to personally pay for it. It's not this way because there aren't enough medical resources to go around - America spends more resources per capita than anyone else in the industrial world to get worse health outcomes. It's this way because it is profitable for the ruling class to keep it this way.
I removed it as SANTBD is now a redirect to Anvilicious which is already on the page. They immediately added it back, adding the current quote explains why (still misuse as it's not about the importance/relevancy but the heavy handedness improving the delivery). I just PM'd them about it and they were unaware of it now being a redirect. Letting you know before re-removing, should I re-cut now?
Also, this:
- They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot: General consensus is that the film has a great concept that just wasn't fully fleshed out enough. The director himself agreed.
TWAPGP is about unused plots, not poorly used. It doesn't give enough context to say but I suspect misuse as the Anvilicious entry means the issues are intended to be front and center. Any objections to cutting?
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
openFirst Person Writing on Rhymes on a Dime
So, in the Real Life section of Rhymes on a Dime, some troper(s) decided to write a couple of examples as a Self-Demonstrating Article:
- Nipsey Russell could pull off a couplet at just the drop of a hat. Name another talented person who could ever do just that.
- Wayne Brady, lady?
- Not just him, but most of the the guests on both versions of Whose Line Is It Anyway? Josie Lawrence was particularly good at this type of play.
- I could argue, I guess, but it's not worth the ink; I'll just say it's not quite as hard as you think.
- If you're a Knick fan, you're used to hearing it from Walt "Clyde" Frasier, man.
Normally I would delete as an instance of First-Person Writing as it is a violation of wiki rules, but in this case it is clearly part of the self-demonstrating style. What should I do?
openDEATH BATTLE! Fridge Horror cleanup Web Original
The "Character Death Consequences" on DEATH BATTLE!'s Fridge page compose almost all of the Fridge Horror section's examples, with only a small handful of examples being about something else in a different folder. However, the show clearly states how the animations are pure Spectacle, with the specifics of the animation not meant to reflect what should happen in a fight. The page itself acknowledges this fact in its Fridge Brilliance section, as does TV Tropes itself in Pantheon.Acts Of War. With how much these examples are bogging the page down, I suggest moving them to a separate page.
openEdit War on the YMMV page for Inside Job
So troper Johnny Be Bad deleted this example from the YMMV page for Inside Job:
Trans Audience Interpretation: Reagan is occasionally read as a transwoman for a couple reasons. The first episode establishes that she has a habit of saying "suck my dick" a lot for a woman, the fourth episode includes a robotic replica of herself that is notably more feminine, her diploma uses male pronouns and has her name written by hand, and, perhaps most notably, the 8th episode has Rand offhandedly mention that he tampered with her genetics when she was in the womb to make sure his genetics were dominant. That said flashbacks to Reagan's childhood in the finale seem to contradict this, unless Reagan transitioned extremely early or her memories have been further tampered with.
This was their justification:
- Don't strain your back reaching like that.
They then started this thread
to discuss Trans Audience Interpretation. The general consensus of the thread was that Johnny Be Bad's edit reason was unnecessarily mean, but that the example wasn't valid to begin with.
Troper Sana Naryon then re-added the example with this justification:
- Trans Audience Interpretation is not a theory, it's an interpretation. I'll reach however long I damn well please, and I know for a fact a lot of people agree with me. Also, those What An Idiot examples are more about Rand being an idiot In-Universe, which is perfectly in character for him, instead of him acting stupid for no reason.
To me this seems like someone using the YMMV page to push their own personal headcanon. During the thread discussing this example, someone did a google search and found no proof of fans thinking Reagan was trans.
openComplainy edits about the Pokemon DP anime
Tavernier has recently been making a lot of edits to Pokémon the Series: Diamond and Pearl — Cast, specifically about the character Paul, many of which I feel are either highly nitpicky or demonstrate heavy negative bias against the character. I deleted several of them the other day for reasons listed here
, but Tavernier quickly added multiple of them back with new reasoning and then some. So to avoid an Edit War, I'm bringing them up here. To expand on a few:
- Depending on the Writer: Paul spends his anime tenure Diamond and Pearl being all over the place. How much of a jerk he is, how much he respects others, how much he respects his pokémon, how much he respects his brother, his analysis of what actually happens in battle and what causes it—these all change from episode to episode without cause or warning.
I'll start off with this entry. This one wasn't readded after I removed it, but I still bring it up because it's factually untrue to an extreme degree. As I pointed out in my edit, Paul is a character who, unlike virtually any other character in the anime's run, was near-exclusively written by a single person — Atsuhiro Tomioka wrote about 90% of the Paul-focused episodes in the series, so if there's any trope that doesn't apply to him, it's Depending on the Writer. I feel like that's a rather big red flag of misunderstanding already. In all my years of dealing with debates about Paul, I've never heard even a single other person, no matter how much they hated him, call him an inconsistent character.
- Strong as They Need to Be: Paul's assessment of Azumarill's weakness wouldn't be such a sticking point if Azumarill's loss at Roark's gym weren't so blatantly engineered by the writers—Roark's Geodude was apparently trained to use Hidden Power such that it not only blocks Hydro Pump but knocks Azumarill down long enough that Geodude could get two free hits of Rollout in.
Tavernier also seems to be particularly hung over the Geodude vs. Azumarill battle in DP015, where Azumarill's Hydro Pump is overpowered by Geodude's Hidden Power and finished off by two Rollout hits. When I deleted the above entry, they added
these instead:
- Ambiguous Situation: There are two competing explanations for Azumarill's loss to Geodude—Brock speculates that it's because Roark trained Geodude especially well, while Paul decides that Azumarill itself was just weak. The series does not judge in favor of either interpretation.
- Strong as They Need to Be: A key part of Paul's early Character Development and his conflict with Ash was his decision to release an Azumarill for supposedly being unimprovably weak after it lost in Roark's gym—however, the loss in question was the result of the anime putting Azumarill on the receiving end of this trope; after setting Azumarill up to dish out a Curb-Stomp Battle (with its type-advantage and Hydro Pump), the writers let Geodude stomp Azumarill instead and then had Brock Hand Wave it by speculating that Roark trained Geodude to beat Water-types.
This... doesn't change anything about my stance. Like I said in my edit, this type of thing happens all the time in the anime. Hidden Power beat out Hydro Pump to show that Geodude was stronger, and Azumarill was finished by Rollout because it wasn't strong enough to recover and counterattack. Frankly, it feels like they're trying to make the whole situation seem way more complex than it really is. Azumarill wasn't naturally powerful, so it easily fell to a Rock-type that had been trained to deal with Water-types. Paul, who at the time was still only concerned with power, deemed it worthless and got rid of it.
- Karma Houdini: Paul somehow gets away with badmouthing his Azumarill in front of Roark, who doesn't react at all. In earlier episodes, Gym Leaders and other officials would scold Trainers who did this.
I deleted this one for being far too small of an offense, so they proceeded to instead add an extensive list
of Paul's misdeeds that didn't go directly punished. I will say that most of them are technically accurate, and I'm well aware that Paul's situation with karma is the main source of his Base-Breaking Character status. But again, my counterargument still stands: first off, every jerk rival had numerous petty douche moments that weren't called out. But also, according to the page itself, Karma Houdini is mainly supposed to be for finished works where the character never received any form of comeuppance, which does not apply to Paul in the slightest. Going over each entry individually in bold:
- Karma Houdini: From being unkind and a terrible sport to acts of abuse, Paul gets away with a lot of misbehavior in the early part of the series.
- In DP046, Ash, Dawn, and Brock are separated from one another and each happens to encounter Paul while trying to find the others. Each time, one of the heroes asks Paul if he's seen the others, only for Paul to tell each of them no in turn, which in the case of Dawn and Brock is a straight-up, certified lie. This isn't brought up at all when the heroes reunite. This was such a small act of annoyance in a completely nonserious filler that's it's a nitpick at best.
- The Hearthome City Battle Competition (DP050-DP052) offers a hearty helping of Paul's cruelty, none of which he gets punished for. This here's the big one. Paul's lack of immediate punishment during this arc is probably the single biggest source of debate behind him. However, regardless of how you feel about it, the fact remains that Paul did receive karma for these actions (albeit much later): that he lost to the very Pokemon that he abused and released in the Sinnoh League. It's Karma Houdini Warranty at bare minimum.
- Paul's vicious attempts to harness Chimchar's Defense Mechanism Superpower: throwing Chimchar into intense danger, having his own pokémon attack it, and even deliberately forcing it to relive its own trauma by putting it against a Zangoose.
- When the heroes and even a Nurse Joy insist Paul let Chimchar rest and recover from the suffering it has endured at Paul's hands, Paul apparently agrees, only to throw Chimchar into the next battle and reveal he was only pretending so people would get off his back.
- During one battle, Paul—whose attempts to put Chimchar through this training have been continuously thwarted by Ash—demands Chimchar attack Ash's Turtwig.
- When a traumatized Chimchar fails to activate its Defense Mechanism Superpower in the heat of the moment, Paul turns his back on Chimchar and the battle, leaving Ash to try and command both Turtwig and Chimchar and salvage victory. Paul later kicks Chimchar off of his team and spitefully tells Ash and Chimchar that they deserve the worst—each other—when Ash offers the chimp a place on his.
- In DP064, Paul takes advantage of the others' effort to relocate a flock of Gligar safely out of a city in order to capture the powerful Gliscor leading the flock. Paul's success causes the flock to disperse and makes the relocation effort vastly more difficult and dangerous, but once Ash confronts him about the chaos he's caused Paul shrugs it off and leaves. Paul is never held to account for the difficulties caused or lives endangered by setting the Gligar loose. For one thing, the part about "endangered lives" is just false. But also, while this moment might qualify for Lack of Empathy, there's no karma that could've actually happened here. Technically all he was doing was catching a wild Gliscor.
- In DP066, Paul needlessly insults rookie Gym Leader Maylene with such contempt that it puts her in a Heroic BSoD. He never apologizes or faces comeuppance for this decision to Kick the Dog. This is another nitpick. Yes, this was very rude, but if that somehow makes him a Karma Houdini then every jerk rival is one too.
- In the same episode, Paul's older brother Reggie acknowledges that Paul has always had a cruel streak, but Reggie—the closest thing to a parental authority figure in Paul's life—gives no indication of having ever tried to confront or punish Paul for his historic behavior. This doesn't even have anything to do with karma to begin with.
- In DP081, Paul taunts Ash's team by insisting that pokémon only lose because of the trainer—as if Paul didn't blame Azumarill's weakness for its loss at Roark's gym or tell Chimchar it should be ashamed for being knocked out by Cynthia's Garchomp. No one calls him out for being a Hypocrite. See above. This has nothing to do with karma.
- When Ash praises Staravia during the Tag Team Tournament after Paul's Torterra defeats Brock and Holly, Paul sarcastically asks Ash if they even did anything. While rude to say, it's not inaccurate as Torterra single handedly defeated both of their opponents. Downplayed though, given that it was Torterra's attacks blocking Staravia that prevented it from even landing a hit.
was deleted
in favor of this Never My Fault entry:
- In a late battle of the Tag Team Tournament, Paul's Torterra single-handedly defeats Brock's and Holly's pokemon, and Paul dismisses his "partner" Ash's attempts to congratulate Staravia on the grounds that Staravia contributed nothing—Staravia was certainly trying, but it was also busy trying to maneuver around Torterra's wild and reckless attacks (it even got singed by Hyper Beam), a fact Paul does not see fit to acknowledge.
I actually do think this scene could qualify for both tropes (though less for the reasons stated and more because Paul proceeded to criticize Staravia for being too slow). But there's no reason to have deleted the Jerkass Has a Point one, since Paul did have a point. Staravia contributed nothing to the battle while Torterra won all on its own. The deleted bullet even pointed out the ways in which it was downplayed.
openSonic's Dr. Eggman— a misuse of "Affably Evil" Videogame
(Very thorough post below, apologies for length)
Dear Ask the Tropers,
I want to discuss how Sonic the Hedgehog Big Bad Dr. Eggman might be better off as an example of Faux Affably Evil as opposed to Affably Evil, the latter of which is what most descriptions of him I've seen on this site describe him as (including some trope subpage-only cases, hence why I've come over to Ask the Tropers). Spoilers unmarked for ease of reading.
Here are the main entries regarding him:
- Dr. Eggman from Sonic The Hedgehog has his moments of this.
- In Sonic Adventure 2 he acted very pleasant and, though he came close to killing Sonic, he was shown almost regretting it, showing profound respect for him after all the years that they were rivals. He had also been seen getting along with Tails at the end of the game. It also showed that he had the deepest respect for his grandfather, Gerald Robotnik.
- The best example was probably Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), where he's shown acting politely and gently most of the time, especially in front of Elise (except for the whole kidnapping part, of course).
- In the ending of Sonic Generations: The classic version, having learned that he never defeats Sonic, ponders upon pursuing a career as a teacher instead.
- Affably Evil: Despite really wanting to Take Over the World — and occasionally going to some extreme lengths to achieve this goal — Eggman's a fairly pleasant fellow who usually treats his enemies with Villain Respect.
- In Sonic Adventure 2, he lowers his head in melancholy after seemingly killing Sonic, and later gets along with the heroes after teaming up with them.
- In Sonic Colors, he takes Sonic's advice regarding threatening him directly rather than going through a bunch of terrible amusement-park-related puns on the way — for which Sonic then thanks him.
- In Sonic Lost World, he saves Tails' life from the rogue Cubot, even though it isn't necessary for his master plan, and seems to genuinely respect Tails. He's a complicated guy.
Here's my counterargument.
He loves being what he thinks is the most civilized and enlightened guy in the room, plain and simple, and the trope subpages of quite a few different adaptations have already described their Robotniks/Eggmen as "Faux", despite how two of them (AoStH and the movie) were heavily comedy-focused.
Now, I'm sure there might be a couple cases out there of game-universe!Eggman being genuinely affable (maybe just during Olympic season or something, the Twitter Takeovers are more of a different kind of portrayal altogether), but these are too few and far between to be a defining trait.
Let's look at the alleged examples being most frequently cited:
- Sonic Adventure 2:
- The Misaimed Fandom entry I put on the game's YMMV page explains the "Gerald" bit in detail. Long story short, he looked up to his grandpa as a brilliant scientist rather than because of anything benevolent, and he's disappointed that Gerald went crazy trying to destroy the world since he takes pride in his own Pragmatic Villainy.
- The "admirable adversary" scene has him send Sonic to his death via explosive escape pod and then lowering his head out of respect… before immediately getting over it and pointing his gun back at Tails. His Dark Story recap also has him gleefully proclaim, "I finally did it! I've defeated Sonic! That annoying hedgehog is gone forever! He's nothing but floating chunks in space now!"
- He did get along with the heroes during the Last Story, but, y'know, no world means no empire so necessity and all that.
- The somber "you're right" response he gives to Tails' "we all did it together" was meant to fit with the equally somber tone of Shadow's death and Gerald's tainted legacy. As sincere as it sounds, it's just Eggman acknowledging the facts after being briefly lost in a moment of thought.
- Here's a Dummied Out exchange that was meant to happen after that, anyways:
Tails: "Where are you going?"
- Sonic the Hedgehog (2006): He's only gentlemanly to Elise because she has something he wants and he still tries to get rid of Sonic and friends in multiple ways. And he doesn't even give Elise a nice room or a meal.
- Sonic Unleashed: He keeps Professor Pickle fed with cucumber sandwiches on request. Yeah, a corpse is less useful than someone to interrogate, food makes a good bribe in case you don't have a lot of other time and options, and he got the recipe wrong anyways.
- Sonic Colors: The "Eggman changes his evil speech at Sonic's request" scene was most likely meant to be played for laughs given how the doctor does it begrudgingly. There's also this line he gives afterwards to Sonic: "I would say it's been nice knowing you, but it hasn't." Not even this game has a genuinely nice Eggman.
- Sonic Generations: The whole "teaching degree" joke was probably meant to be sarcasm from Classic Eggman, with Modern Eggman missing the point and only considering it because "I've always enjoyed telling people what to do!", causing his Classic self to Face Palm. Also Lost World and Mania happened because each Eggman went back to world conquest, so no.
- Sonic Lost World:
- It's stated in a Magnificent Bastard entry and supported by the game's ending that he only saved Tails to make sure his Enemy Mine with Sonic stayed on schedule. At best, I guess you can argue that he'd want to beat Sonic and Tails personally.
- A scene earlier into the game (the one where Sonic sets the Zeti loose) has him tell the Deadly Six that he's a "compassionate" man… with the rest of what he says being covered up by Sonic and Tails talking over him. Listening closely, this is what he says to the Zeti:
Eggman: "I'm a compassionate man, or else I would've dropped you into a bottomless pit by now!"
- The game in general seems to subtly emphasize how is Eggman a Jerk with a Heart of Jerk— he's back to stuffing animals in robots, he only sees the Zeti as useful lackeys for him, he doesn't care that the Cacophonic Conch's noises are "very painful" to the Zeti and only that the shell itself is "very rare", and he only saves Sonic's life so the hedgehog can get rid of the Zeti for him while he sneaks back to his Extractor device. And to top it all off, this line just oozes with Faux Affably Evil:
Eggman: "Finally, with the energy drained from the Extractor, I can rule the world! Pity about the damage done down there, but there's still enough left for me to conquer."
And considering how he's a very Opportunistic Bastard willing to pervert anything to get what he wants (e.g. Little Planet, Angel Island, an ancient pyramid, a planet, five planets, time and space, a guy's very reason to live, etc.), I think it's safe to say he'd even exploit a Draco in Leather Pants situation like this one if he existed in the real world.
Hence, why I think we should change this. My proposed plan here is to edit the main pages that matter and then edit those linked to it in some way. I'll deal with the latter once I've gotten the go-ahead for the former.
Thank you all for listening.
Many regards, Blurry
openSearching Discarded Tropes on the TLP?
Is there a way to search through discarded tropes on the TLP? I’m looking for a trope I remember seeing on the TLP, but searching it on both the main site and the TLP page itself brought up nothing. Is there a way to search the discarded tropes, or is it more along the lines of “these things were discarded for a reason”?
openEdit War on VideoGame.EldenRing
I brought this up on the unreleased works thread
, but haven't gotten a response. Crossposting here to get more eyeballs on the matter. The issue is this entry on VideoGame.Elden Ring:
- Lighter and Softer: Downplayed, but compared to the other games directed by Miyazaki, the area seen in the network test is positiviely Ghibli-esque,. Whereas the settings of Lordran, Lothric and Yharnam were rotten and dying, the Lands Between are positively brimming with life and light, even if it's only one area. It's still dotted with the ruins of old kingdoms and civilization is clearly on its last legs, but the world itself is doing just fine.
Lighter and Softer is a trope about the overall tone of an entire work, and therefore it seems to me that one would need the entire work to know whether it applies, which we don't have, as the game hasn't been released yet. I deleted it, and troper ~Sana Naryon restored it with the edit reason, "We get to see a portion of the map in the network test, which is far lighter and softer than any area in any other soulsborn game."
So, we've got a couple of potential issues. First, there's no citation in the example text telling where this comes from. Second, I'm skeptical that it's a trope that can be included at all based on preview footage; it's inherently speculative. And third, since Sana Naryon was the person who added it in the first place, restoring it without discussion is an Edit War.
Edited by MaiBaloneyopen Cities taking advantage of fictional portrayal
Do we have a trope for the phenomenon where real life cities (or parts thereof, like a street) embrace the fact that a popular work of fiction is either set in that city, or in a fictional city that just happens to have the same name? Like how Metropolis, Illinois declared itself Supermans hometown due to sharing it's name with the fictional city that the man of steel lives in. Or how the German city of Bremen fully embraced the fairy tale of the Bremen Town Musicians.
If not, is this trope worthy?
open Odd deletions and edit reasons. Live Action TV
So the troper Pikachu 4 Prezident
Has made some deletions with some concerning edit reasons.
- Here.
They deleted a Values Resonance entry I think (I don't know where it was) with an edit reason that states this And as a final point, the whole "men in miniskirts" thing was stupid-looming back then and it still very much looks dumb now. I don't get why everyone feels the need to inject current year politics into their edits...
Theirs also this one.
- where tbf
the entry itself might be kinda a stretch. But his actual edit reason is strange.
There seems to be an agenda here....
Edited by miraculous

Jumbo J 99 is doing an Edit War on What If…? (2021).
He added a really complaining entry of Took Bleak Stopped Caring to the ymmv (saying it now applied to the whole MCU). It was removed for being both a moment and the work itself ends pretty optimistically.
He then re-added it with a bunch of really reaching and sometimes incorrect versions of how things will in his opinion go
.
Like We have no clue if project insight will happen here and Carter could still stop it, We see in the finale that Tchalla and Quill are going to stop Ego, Loki is also defeated in the finale and a new avengers is formed who will probably deal with Malekith, Strange accepts his punishment and is even at peace, the zombie stuff is apparently going to be covered in another show, I have no idea where the nuclear war will destroy the earth comes from as that's not even in the episode and Killmonger is too stopped.
The show has been well received and from what I've seen loved by the fanbase for the dark moments so I don't think it's an example. Even ignoring that several of these entries are blatantly not true.