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openWriter Conflicts With Canon misuse?
- The Rise of Skywalker establishes that Supreme Leader Snoke was actually a failed clone created by Palpatine, with several other Snokes visible in vats on Exegol. This directly contradicts previous declarations that Snoke had been around for many decades, and that Palpatine only learned about his existence shortly before his death at the end of Return of the Jedi.
WCWC is when Word of God conflicts with canon. I believe this was All There in the Manual material that was contradicted as opposed to out of work creator statements. (If WCWC allows prior material how's it different than Retcon?) Or if both statements and later material contradict does the latter supersede the former? What to do?
Relating:
- According to the Sonic 4 web site, Sonic and Knuckles' levels and stories take place at the exact same time in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Fans noted that there was tons of evidence within the game itself that Knuckles' story is after Sonic's story. Examples include Angel Island Zone Act 1 showing only the sky in the background instead of the ocean, Eggman's Death Egg is missing in the background for Launch Base Zone and Lava Reef Zone Act 2, the ghosts in Sandopolis Zone Act 2 are already wandering around at the start (you later find the container that held them was already broken by Sonic), and Mecha Sonic appears to fight Knuckles at the end of the game since he didn't explode when Sonic defeated him previously. This was rectified by later material stating that it indeed took place after Sonic's campaign.
Would a official website be All There in the Manual as opposed to Word of God?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaughtopen Disagreement on Marx page.
First of all, I understand that this topic might be sensitive to some people here, but I hope that we can maintain a sense of objectivity and base our conclusions on the facts.
Marxist economics is not considered scientifically credible by the economics establishment. It has zero or near zero presence in economics textbooks, and it has zero or near zero presence in economics university courses. To my knowledge, there is nowhere in the world where Marxism is included as a component of economics education. Maybe Cuba or North Korea or somewhere like that. This is something that, in my experience, Marxists completely concede and acknowledge. They concede and acknowledge it to try and demonstrate that modern economics is hopelessly corrupt, but they concede and acknowledge it nonetheless.
The Karl Marx page had a line noting that "As an economist, Marx remains heterodox, and nearly all modern economic institutions reject his work as scientifically incorrect. Nevertheless, Marxist economics retains a significant following and continues to be used as the foundation of socialist economic ideology." I believe this is incredibly important and relevant information. I think one of the most pertinent questions a layman would have about a field of study is "Is this considered credible and effective by the experts?"
05tele changed the line to "As an economist, Marx remains heterodox, and many modern economic institutions reject his work as scientifically incorrect." I sent him a message explaining that this edit was inappropriate. I explained that Marxist economics is overwhelmingly rejected by the scientific establishment, and the article needs to reflect that.
He replied with the rebuttal that different schools of economic thought exist. I replied and conceded that yes, different schools of thought exist, but that is insufficient. I told him that it's not enough for schools to exist and for some people to believe in them, but he needs to demonstrate that they are considered credible on a significant scale. I asked if he could demonstrate this.
Rather than providing me with any indication whatsoever that Marxism was indeed considered credible, he replied to me, rather rudely, "I am not responsible for your ignorance of economics. I suggest you remedy it."
I stress again, that the issue here should not be whether Marxism is right or wrong, but whether it's accepted as credible by current institutions. This is something 05tele himself seems to implicitly concede, given that he hasn't touched a later paragraph in the same article expanding on the point. I'd like to revert this edit.
I feel I might also note that 05tele failed to include an edit reason on his initial edit. So, essentially, he's made an edit with no justification, and when asked for some, responded by saying "I'm not responsible for you being ignorant."
Edited by HingabeSiebenopen Edit War on Fast-Killing Radiation + self-report
Er... I accidentally triggered an Edit War on Fast-Killing Radiation without realizing it so I deeply apologize, but figured I should get this out of the way. Courtesy link here
- August 24: I launched the trope with most of the content.
- August 25: St Fan added a dash
to "Video Game Examples" and changed it to "Video-Game Examples".
- Shortly after, I removed the dash
with this edit reason: "Improper use of the dash.", but to give more clarity, it's because I found St. Fan's use of the dash in this case odd since "Video Game" is two separate words and doesn't need to be connected with the dash. It was then I realized I triggered an Edit War by accident since I forgot I was the one who launched the trope.
I'll await further judgment from the mods, but do know that it wasn't my intention to start an Edit War in the first place. I simply had a brain fart and reverted St. Fan's edit without realizing it would trigger an Edit War.
openExample-less trope
So Numerological Motif currently has no listed examples on its page, but a decent number of crosswalks elsewhere on the site. There's nothing on the page itself saying why, so does anyone know if it was an intentional decision to keep it this way? I was thinking of crosswicking it, but I didn't want to go against a previous ruling by mistake.
open Know Your Meme misuse/not fit to trope?
- Americans Hate Tingle: Both entries are about fans of other sites hating KYM, not other nations hating it which is what it's about. Cut?
- Creator's Pet: Donald Trump. It's certainly Not Hyperbole to say that a new page is created literally every time the man does something noteworthy, to the point where numerous Trump-related articles can pop up in a single day. Everyone, even the site's right-wing users, have grown exasperated about it. Only entry that might count as a character, others are disliked meme template. Even if non-characters count (doubt it) this and the others fail the Pet criteria of being "Put into big scenes for no reason" as KYM has no scenes or narrative.
- Ensemble Dark Horse:
- The Bad Luck Brian image macro has become the community's poster child for a legitimate meme that's been ignored by the mods in favor of fads or Forced Memes. The profile image of BLB itself lampshades it! Impressive, considering BLB was initially utterly hated by the community.
- Super Robo Jesus is considered to be the Memetic Badass of Deadpooled Memes because of how the article is So Bad, It's Good.
- Deadpool is treated by the community as the site's unofficial mascot.
- DON, so much so he himself became a meme. I believe Darkhorse only applies to characters and these straddle the line between them and templates. Suspect misuse as they're not minor getting disproportionate fan love as there's no narrative to be minor in. Brian might fit Unpopular Popular Character better.
- The Scrappy: In 2019, the Belle Delphine image gallery got this treatment, for refusing to disappear, even weeks after she herself has fallen out of relevance. Even those who initially found her attractive quickly got annoyed at seeing that aheago face wherever they go. Many users blame the popularity of the gallery on the poor taste of immature users, leading to the gallery staying relevant even though no-one is posting anything anymore. Only characters count so not sure if valid as it's less the character than their use, but I've seen other Scrappies hated for such.
Thoughts? Is KYM even a tropeable work given it's not a story/narrative but a creator/content channel which doesn't warrant a YMMV or other such pages?
open Trope for when a character becomes completely unimportant
Trope name for a character (or a group of characters) becomes less important and/or unimportant at all?
For instance, the Hole-Digging Club members in Shimeji Simulation were slightly important characters from Chapters 1 to 21, but the Hole-Digging Club itself becomes unimportant after the latter chapter.
open Re-adding missuse with an incredibly rude Edit Reason and a potentially biased troper
So on YMMV.She Hulk Attorney At Law there was this entry
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The scene where Jennifer calls out Bruce about controlling her anger did not endear her to some. Fans are well aware of Bruce's troubled and traumatic past note undergoing a botched super soldier experiment that resulted in the deaths of some of his coworkers, being hunted by the US government for years, having to give up his relationships with Betty Ross and Black Widow due to his deep-seated fears of accidentally harming them, coming to terms with Black Widow's death, and attempting suicide at one point, while Jennifer is not, due to how (in her own words) Bruce has isolated himself from her and she's only heard the barest details until recently. Yet even if she is ignorant of the depth of his issues, and/or people understand where Jennifer is coming from, Bruce is the wrong person to be calling out over such (relatively) petty issues as catcalling and mansplaining.
It was decided by the Unintentionally Unsympathetic cleanup
. That is was a bad faith argument that misinterpreted the scene as she wasn't actually comparing tramas with Bruce like it said and bias attempting to Jen as petty when she wasn't. So I removed
it. Well General Horseradish re-added
with this incredibly rude Edit Reason, "what the hell do you mean "bad faith argument", it's literally how the scene plays out lmao" I also feel that they might be bias. As they also removed
a Nightmare Fuel entry that mentions the speech in a positive light. However, I could be very wrong there.
Now I don't care one way or another about the entry, but would like some opinions.
Edited by BullmanopenA question about Edit War policies
Now, this question is strictly theoretical, but I can't find an answer in Administrivia and it's been bugging me for a while.
Let's say, I put up some example and another troper removed it. I messaged them, we civilly talked it out, and they agreed that my example was correct and should be reinstated. Would I be allowed to reinstate it myself?
I mean, going strictly by the rules: "If you add something, someone changes or removes it, and you change it back, you're edit warring." Does this mean that only the other troper is allowed to change it and if I do it, I'll be still edit warring, even though we have talked it out already? Should I bring it up in ATT and get mod permission first? Or is it okay to reinstate the example as long as I write something like "this example has been discussed with [troper], it is reinstated with their consent" in edit reasons?
openStaving off edit war
In February 2022, negatwenty
edited AwesomeMusic.Super Smash Bros (courtesy link to page history
) to put a redundant pothole around the spoiler warning at the top of the page, changing Administrivia/YouHaveBeenWarned. to [[Administrivia/{{YouHaveBeenWarned}} You have been warned.]] I removed it on the grounds of its redundancy; the double curly braces alone are unnecessary, but so is potholing the title to itself purely for the sake of only having the initial Y capitalised.
And a few days ago, they put it back again without an edit reason. This is a pointless hill to die on, so I'm reporting it here instead. Permission to re-remove it?
Edited by mlsmithcaopenQuestion About Old Shame
I'm a little confused about the Old Shame trope. It's categorized as trivia, yet the trope page itself also specifies that it can have in-universe examples, and there's an entire section for these non-trivia examples.
I do see that Old Shame is currently under discussion at the Trope Repair Shop, but I can't tell if this is what's being discussed or not. Basically, my question is, can we use Old Shame as a regular in-universe trope (not listing it as trivia) or not?
open Word Cruft notifier
Okay, this is a bit of a weird situation, and I just wanted to send it out here to get the lay of the land and see what people think. I'm gonna admit up front that I might be in the wrong here, but I just want to be sure.
Yesterday, I made an edit to Characters.Better Call Saul Howard Hamlin. It was an edit to a Foil entry for him and Hank Schrader (which I admit in hindsight should probably actually be under Contrasting Sequel Main Character, but that's another issue). I wrote this:
- Their deaths are later used as part of a deception for Jimmy and Walt to help their loved ones; Walt claims responsibility for Hank's murder on the phone in order to confirm it to the authorities and play himself up as a monster for Skyler's benefit, while Jimmy lies about Kim's role in Howard's death in order to spare her prison time and take all the blame for himself.
Yesterday, Random Troper 123 removed the "in order"
that I bolded in the entry citing Word Cruft - and sure, I guess the entry still makes grammatical sense without it even if I think it added to the grammar of the sentence and don't think it was worth deleting, so nothing wrong there - but then they went the extra mile and sent me a Word Cruft notifier about it. I might be overreacting myself taking it here, but that seems like a bit of an overreaction, and looking through their recent history, they seem to be on a bit of a Word Cruft binge today (among other things that seem perfectly legitimate) and making some edits that seem unnecessary:
- Changing "quite a few" to "several"
- Removing the word "also" from the sentence "There's also grenadiers"
.
- Turning the sentence "breaking heads in" into just "breaking heads"
- Changing "pretty much" to "well-nigh"
and "That said" to "Still", even though it didn't change the meaning of the sentence.
- Trimming an entry
by removing the word "that" in the phrase "She claims that", changing "tend to" to "often", "such as" to "like", removing the qualifier "a bit", and changing "the girl" to "someone".
Like, maybe I'm reading too much into things, and if I am, please don't hesitate to tell me, but there's worrying about word cruft and then there's taking the time to change two words to one seemingly just because. It just seems a bit unnecessary, plus a look at ATT shows that this has come up before
, and if I'm getting a notifier over this, then other editors probably are too, so I want to see what people think.
openCalebSu
CalebSu's
only edit was vandalizing the Self Demonstrating Thanos article
.
I already reverted it back. Their edit reason ("Reduce cost of hosting TV tropes") smells like a troll.
openSingle Issue Wonk
Rift Witch appears to have a Single-Issue Wonk with a YMMV.RWBY entry (Values Dissonance for Blake's Declaration of Protection to Yang), and historically has not been willing to engage in discussion about building consensus to address their concerns, thereby edit warring in the process. The timeline is as follows (I hope my links work):
- 4th February 2021: Rift Witch deleted
several entries, including the Values Dissonance entry, complaining that they're misogynistic.
- A few hours later, Psyga315 restores
all the entries back, stating they're not misogynistic, and it's about them acting "American" not "ladylike".
- A few hours later, Psyga315 restores
- 13th September 2021: Rift Witch again deleted
the Values Dissonance entry (but none of the others), this time stating that the entry is sexism and that they think it's unreasonable to expect Yang to stop being angry.
- 14th September 2021: I restored
the entry, stating that disliking an entry isn't a valid reason for deleting YMMV items, sent them a notification about deleting YMMV on the basis of disliking someone's opinion, and spotted that Nubian Satyress had also started
a discussion on the discussion page, arguing that Rift Witch's deletion does not address the audience reaction itself. I therefore also joined in the discussion page thread.
- A few hours later, Rift Witch deleted
it again, stating that it's not an example of values dissonance. They also responded to my notifier, accusing me of not reading their edit reason and declaring that the entry isn't Values Dissonance. Although I tried to get them to engage in a discussion they weren't interested (I have no problem with the mods reading the PM exchange between us). They also never joined in the discussion Nubian Satyress started either.
- A few hours further on, Zaptech restored
the entry telling Rift Witch that if they want to discuss removing it, they need to take it to the discussion page.
- A few hours later, Rift Witch deleted
- 20th August 2022: Rift Witch rewrote
the entry, stating that the entry doesn't belong there at all, but since people insist on it being there, they're going to rewrite it to remove the implication that Japanese men don't understand women.
For full disclosure, I have edited the entry on two occasions that were unrelated to these events (removing a parabomb note in September 2020 and a natter note in July 2022, different tropers involved each time). I don't know if that means I've also Edit Warred because the reasons were Administrivia-related rather than the entry itself, but I will accept the consequences if that is the case.
Edited by WyldchyldopenVideoGame/{{Diablo}} MagnificentBastard entry Videogame
Baal from the franchise was approved by the thread
. I thought I had forgotten to add him to the YMMV page so I just put him up but later noticed he was deleted here
with the edit reason citing some of the tropes should be going on individual game pages. Noticing my mistake, I've commented out the example but I don't see him being put on any particular game page. To avoid an edit war, does anyone mind pointing me to the proper YMMV page he should be on as I don't know the games myself?
Edit: Changed from a comment out to a deletion of my own addition until this gets resolved just to be on the safe side.
Edited by 43110openToo Long?
Hello again. In Characters.Star Wars Imperial Navy, someone added
a Rousing Speech entry complete with a quote. However, I feel the quote is too long. What do you all think?
- Rousing Speech: Delivers an impressive speech at the start of the Battle of Jakku in Empire's End.
Rax: Loyal soldiers of the Galactic Empire, madness is at our door. Ruffians and barbarians of the Rebel Alliance have claimed for themselves a government of no legitimacy, a government given over to corrosion, chaos, and the corruption born of alien minds and radical terroristic teachings. It was our own Emperor Palpatine who showed us the weakness that presents itself when a Republic becomes sick with the disease of craven politics and the illness of elite oligarchs who force their agendas upon us. With the death of our beloved Emperor, our own Empire was cast into disorder. It gave strength to the illegitimate, and emboldened them with a fraudulent claim of bringing peace and justice to the galaxy—and yet, for so long, who have been the champions of peace? The only war visited upon the galaxy has been the one brought by the criminal Rebel Alliance. Scattered and lost, we could have perished. After attacking Chandrila and injuring the fraudulent politicians who seek to steal the sanctity of our galaxy, I brought us here to Jakku, unifying our people and our powers in this faraway world—a hard world that has tested our mettle and forged us and sharpened us into a stronger blade. A blade with which we will slit the throats of the traitors that crawl on their bellies toward our door. Soon they come! Soon they try to finish what they started. They want to end the Empire. They want to set up as a tumor on a healthy body, leeching the blood while growing fatter like a parasite. They deny our legitimacy. They lie about the stability and sanity we created for the galaxy. For those are their truest weapons: deception and delusion. We must not give in. We must not believe that they are right. We must see them as they are: Brutes and barbarians! They are subhuman. They are alien to us in the truest sense of the word and are deserving of no mercy from us. This is our zero hour, and I call you now to do your duty by the light of the glorious Galactic Empire. The battle to come is not a fight for Jakku or even a fight for the Empire. It is a fight for all the galaxy. If we fail here, we fail everywhere. We fail our loved ones. We fail our children. We fail all who crave constancy and light in these dark times. We pursue no other aim than freedom from oppression, liberty from lies, emancipation from depravity. Today is the day we fight back and reclaim our galaxy. Today is the day the New Republic dies at the Empire's hand. Today we take our future! The battle is upon us. Go! Go and drag them down to the ground and break their necks with your boots! Take their heads! End their tyranny!
openShould work pages contain plot spoilers?
I was going through George's Marvellous Medicine, and was wondering whether work pages should contain a synopsis plot, completely unmarked as a spoiler, rather than a blurb, or something along those lines. (Note: Not as a trope, but in the page description itself).
Just to make sure that the page was not an anomaly, I also had a look at Thief of Time, The Hunger Games, and Old Kingdom. The page for Thief of Time also spoils the plot, whereas the pages for The Hunger Games, and The Old Kingdom do not.
Should those spoilers exist (as a description of the work/plot summary), or should they be hidden, either in a folder, or marked as one?
openWork page with extra images
I came across Music.Self Insert, which has a bunch of images at the bottom of the page that look to be low-quality screenshots from the band's music videos. I know we usually send work pages with multiple images to Image Pickin', but none of the "extra images" are really all that good (read: I doubt an IP thread would vote to keep them over the first image). Should they just be deleted?

There's an ongoing discussion regarding contributors adding Fetish Fuel and other kink-related self-troping on their Tropers/ pages. Click here
if you want to join the discussion.
Edited by Amonimus