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Ask the Tropers:
openWhich Page Should Be Linked To?
Celebrity Power Couple had the following example (I'm showing the namespace of the work because it's relevant. I also shortened the example text since the example content itself isn't that relevant):
- ComicBook.Batman Grant Morrison: Billionaire industrialist, philanthropist, and socialite Bruce Wayne...
Gate Star X changed it to:
- ComicBook.Batman: In ComicBook.Batman Grant Morrison, Bruce Wayne, the billionaire industrialist, philanthropist, and socialite....
I was under the impression that if the more specific work page is available, you use that as the main example link. You only use the main page to group together multiple examples from different works in the series or if the specific comic/work doesn't have a page on the site. So the original was fine and the change is unnecessary. But Gate Star X told me they've seen the second version done around the wiki and are just following suit. Is there any clear policy on this someone can point us to?
Edited by amathieu13openReplacement Aesop items?
Clueless Aesop was cut, so I ask if these parts/examples can be moved elsewhere.
"A Fantastic Aesop or Space Whale Aesop can attempt to teach a lesson through allegory, only to introduce issues that undercut the applicability (e.g., "don't judge people by their race" in a show with Always Chaotic Evil races)." I believe this can be moved to Broken Aesop, correct?
* This is why the "Fighting is wrong!" aesop that 4kids forced upon Pokémon: The First Movie fell flat, since this is a series where everything is resolved by way of Pokémon battle. The Japanese version had a completely different aesop: the circumstances of one's birth don't make them any more or less important than someone else. The irony is that the censored version was far closer to Shudo's intended portrayal which was scrapped in favor of the version the finalized Japanese version used. The dub of Mewtwo Strikes Back—Evolution is Truer to the Text and follows the Japanese version's Aesop.
- The "2014 Equestria Girls Holiday Special" tackles the subject of cyber-bullying showing it has serious, lasting consequences. This is undermined by said consequences becoming an Informed Attribute as ultimately everything gets Easily Forgiven par for the series, a Happy Ending par for the genre, and goes without consequence or mention outside the issue par for the comics. It also had little to do with the holidays. The one argument against Broken Aesop is it does have stated but Informed Attribute consequences. Is it Broken if at odds with the feel of the ending as opposed to objective facts of it, or is it being at odds with what's objectively shown enough to count?
- The "Hydra Cap" storyline in Secret Empire, in which Captain America is revealed to be a secret fascist, was meant to show how even good people can be seduced by hate. But the whole thing was the result of a Cosmic Retcon by the villain as opposed to anything pertaining to Captain America, who was created by two Jewish men to promote their anti-Nazi views. The vagueness of the book on what Hydra actually believes is nullified by the extensive Putting on the Reich imagery. Many other plot details (like having Scarlet Witch, a Romani, join the fascists) and the accidental white supremacist imagery created by having Fash-Cap wielding Mjolnir (Thor's Hammer being a symbol used by many real-world hate groups), combine to show the setting wasn't suitable and the writers too clueless about the subject to handle it tactfully much less intelligently enough to make a valid point. Is it being revealed to be caused by Cosmic Retcon subverting the original intent Broken Aesop or Lost Aesop?
- My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic:
- "Over a Barrel":
- In-universe. Pinkie Pie decides to sing a song about sharing in order to get the bison and the cowponies to get along and agree. They do agree... on this being the worst performance they'd ever seen. Brought up again when the bison are about to call off the attack, but Pinkie Pie celebrates by singing another verse, enraging them and causing them to attack anyway.
- "Feeling Pinkie Keen": Lauren Faust has spoken about regretting the way the episode was handled. The intended aesop was "you should be open to different ideas and ways of perceiving the world, even if you don't particularly understand them." It unintentionally came off as "Atheists/scientists/skeptics are jerks and are demonstrably wrong." This could more or less be a realistic scenario in the sense of how science and logic aren't always the best ways to come up with an answer, but considering it's being applied in a show that regularly uses magic and spells to do a multitude of everyday tasks, it seemed like splitting hairs.
- "A Hearth's Warming Tail" is Yet Another Christmas Carol that, due to Never Say "Die", changes the consequences of the Scrooge-expy from causing death and dying unloved to Wendigos causing Endless Winter. Besides being an unrealistic consequence, it dilutes the True Meaning of Christmas Aesop since its importance is shown less as a question of morals and self-destruction but instead as a necessary ritual to prevent The End of the World as We Know It.
- "Fame and Misfortune" has the Mane 6 publish their friendship journal, which develops a Misaimed Fandom who make their lives miserable. The episode was intended as a Take That! towards invokeda certain part of the show's Periphery Demographic, but the difference between what the writer was meant to criticize (real people complaining about fictional characters who cannot be directly affected by their words) and what's portrayed in the show (characters harassing other characters who are just as real as they are) keeps the message from working perfectly. Add scenes where obvious strawmen complain about things like Twilight Sparkle becoming a princess and Fluttershy having Aesop Amnesia, things which are perfectly reasonable complaints about a fictional series but only become wrong when aimed at real people (in other words, a completely different scenario), and the Aesop turns from "don't be part of the Fan Dumb" to "having any criticism or disagreement about the show is wrong". The writer M.A. Larson considers this episode an Old Shame, to the point he not only leaves it off his filmography but went so far as to ask fans of the episode to not praise him for writing it, but Executive Meddling kept him from addressing the flaws.
- "Surf and/or Turf" has an allegory for divorce/separation; Terramar's father returning to being a hippogriff on Mount Aris and mother remain a seapony underwater in Seaquestria with Terramar torn between choosing with whom and which lifestyle to live and learning they'd both still love him despite his choice. But the show's kid-friendly nature meant downplaying the seriousness (the parents remain on good terms, Terramar choosing to live with both as they're within walking distance and he can magically change between hippogriff/seapony on a whim) such it never addresses the consequences one in this situation realistically would have to deal with.
- "Over a Barrel":
- OK K.O.! Let's Be Heroes: "Let's Not Be Skeletons" tries to have an anti-gun aesop, except: one, the show takes place in a universe where many characters have natural powers which are often equivalent in their danger to a gun, including characters who are explicitly villainous, meaning having a gun for protection makes even more sense in their world; and two, the gun analog doesn't actually kill or even harm in any way except turning people into living skeletons, making it more a nuisance than an actual threat. Not helping is that whenever a character brings up a good argument in favor of the controlers, it just gets ignored.
- A case of this due to Values Dissonance caused the Peppa Pig episode "Mister Skinnylegs" to be stricken from Australian airwaves. The plot of the episode is that spiders shouldn't be considered scary and are okay to have in the house. While that works fine in the show's native Britain and in North America, it's unacceptable in Australia because the country is loaded with venomous spiders, and actually includes some of the most dangerous spiders in the world.note To put this in perspective, a short list of "dangerous Australian spiders" would include the ubiquitous Red-Back Spider (a Black Widow with anger management issues), the White-Tailed Spider (highly venomous, and suspected of being the infamous "necrotizing spider", a spider whose bite causes your flesh to start rotting away whilst you're still alive) and the Sydney Funnelweb (a highly aggressive pseudo-tarantula known to have the most powerful venom in the world). Understandably, Australians don't particularly want small children to think it's okay to play with these things. Just Values Dissonance? Anything else?
The Aesop cleanup thread has been inactive for months so asking here first.
openCombining Character Sheets?
Hello. I made this ATT entry and no one answered. I think I understand why, because my description was way too vague without any proofs to make you guys see what I'm actually proposing.
(That thing has been locked)
So, after a discussion with another troper who also have been editing MOBA character pages, he gave me some input, I worked on some Sandbox pages for the months to come. And I'd like to re-open this discussion.
Proposal: I want to combine the character sheets of Honor of Kings and Arena of Valor
Reasons
- Honor of Kings received a global release.
- Both Honor of Kings and Arena of Valor are created by both Tencent Games and TiMi.
- There has been an update in lore that the world both games took place have been reimagined as 'neighboring regions' (Honor of Kings' world is called Primaela, whereas Arena of Valor's world is called Athanor)
- Both Honor of Kings and Arena of Valor have lent their characters to each other. So we can see some HOK characters being playable in AOV and vice versa. So we now have characters overlapping with each other.
- A lot of characters of Arena of Valor have their moveset taken from Honor of Kings with some small tweaks, creating 'counterparts' between two games without too much of being expies.
Here are the Sandbox pages:
I will still continue to work on these Sandboxes for other things, like making each folders more complete and of course, the GRAMMAR (Yes, once all folders are filled, I will run through the grammar check to all pages myself). But one vital question remains...
Is this an okay thing in TV Tropes? I'd like to know so I don't end up making all future works end up for nothing. (If this is not okay, then I will just share what I worked on to the default pages and modify appropriately, even if there will be similar entries.)
Thank you!
Edited by ChrisXopenCreator's Pet misuse/complaining? Print Comic
I was looking at the CreatorsPet.Marvel Universe page, and I noticed a lengthy entry regarding multiple characters from Avengers Arena and Avengers Undercover — namely the Braddock Academy kids (mostly Apex and Anachronism), Cammi, and Arcade. Judging by a previous example removal on the page, I'm not sure if the examples qualify for the trope, and indeed at least some of it seems like complaining; on the other hand, bias on my part (let's just say I loathed Arena and Undercover in part because of some of the reasons listed in the example) is making me second-guess removing it. So I figured it'd probably better if I got a more neutral party to clarify whether or not it qualifies as misuse/complaining, because I don't think I can trust myself to make that decision.
openPermission to re-remove
A troper
was suspended over unjust deletions/rude edit reasons and their deletions reversed. I feel some of those deletions were valid as misuse.
Characters.Sonic The Hedgehog Modern Era Antagonists 1 Mainline Games:
- Asshole Victim: His mental state and eventual second defeat in Shadow Generations is rather poignant and even pitiful. But given what he did in his debut game, he deserved every moment of it. Even if Shadow doesn't know Mephiles anymore, he concludes just from the fact that the first thing Mephiles did was try to kill him upon their meeting that a creature like him cannot be allowed to exist, for the sake of the world Maria loved. They we’re trying to kill Shadow who retaliated in self-defense, so fails the "Victim" criteria.
- Hate Sink: Mephiles has absolutely zero redeeming qualities, and in his debut game he damn well earned his place among the fanbase as the single most evil villain in the whole franchise, because he managed to do the one thing none of the others (outside of maybe Surge from the IDW Comics) have managed: he killed Sonic the Hedgehog in the final act of his debut appearance. Misuse as while utterly evil, played as Evil Is Cool (such the only well received part of Sonic 06), failing explain how/why he was meant to avert/subvert coolness.
Characters.The Texas Chainsaw Massacre:
- Hate Sink: Unlike Leatherface and Drayton, who only kill for food and survival, Nubbins is just a sadistic bastard who revels in the suffering of his victims. Only issue is already under sub-trope More Despicable Minion. Is that grounds for removal (like we do Jerkass if its sub-tropes apply)?
I asked Is this an example?
But got no feedback. Is it OK to re-delete them for these reasons, or any
other thoughts?
openSome odd phrasings on UsefulNotes.BDSM
So this paragraph on UsefulNotes.BDSM is worded a little oddly-
"A century later, these words had picked up some quite different and quite negative meanings. "Sadism" was used as a generic slur for being a malicious jerk or utter monster who enjoys making others suffer, while "masochism" was used as a similar slur to brand people as self-destructive. A popular excuse for refusing to help victims of Domestic Abuse was to brand them "masochists", implying that they merely pretended to not enjoy the beatings, just to get attention. These days, these creepy secondary meanings are losing power as actual sadism and masochism is becoming more and more socially accepted."
Firstly, "sadistic" and "masochistic" are slurs? This paragraph (and the one before it) is correct that "sadistic" and "masochistic" are derived from Marquis de Sade and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch and initially meant only their sexual contexts, but there's this thing called "definition drift", they mean two things now. I've never heard anyone else get offended if someone talks about "a sadistic tyrant" or calls someone a masochist for continuing to watch a show long into its Seasonal Rot. Moreover, a "slur" is not just any word that isn't a compliment. I've never seen any style guide that considers any use of the words "sadistic" or "masochistic" outside of the context of a consensual relationship as offensive or outdated.
Furthermore, I don't think they're falling out of fashion as words outside of BDSM contexts. Here are two news articles from major outlets
from the past month that use these words right in their title.
We have tropes like Sadistic Choice, Soft-Spoken Sadist, Masochist's Meal, and The Masochism Tango, all of which use the quote-unquote "creepy" meanings, and no one's ever complained.
This seems like it was written by a troper with an axe to grind (a whip to crack?) and is personally offended by uses of these words outside consensual BDSM contexts, and doesn't seem like it's a common sentiment among the wider BDSM community. Permission to rewrite?
openRemoved elaborated context in trope example Videogame
In Characters.Goddess Of Victory Nikke:
- Iron Scope added a Compelling Voice example in Little Mermaid's character folder
, which reads as a ZCE as it only says that she shares a power with two other characters.
- I edited the example
to elaborate on how she fits Compelling Voice as to not make it a ZCE.
- Sonic Gamer 07 alters the example to remove the description of how her powers work
, only referring it by comparing it to other characters and with a work-specific term for it (kotodama).
I don't think it's good to remove context from an example to make it rely on knowledge of other characters instead of letting it stand by itself, which would make it a bit confusing for readers who aren't familiar with the game, plus according to the "hidden trope name" rule of thumb for ZC Es, it doesn't really specify that her powers are a Compelling Voice. Can I add back the elaboration to not make it a ZCE that's too reliant on work knowledge or at least send a notifier to SonicGamer07?
Edited by Excessive-MenaceopenReporting myself for changing image without Image Pickin' thread
A while back, I changed the image for L'État, c'est moi, but I got ahead of myself and only realized I was supposed to make an Image Pickin' thread after the fact. I've gone back and reverted to the original image while dummying out the new one(s) until I figure out what to do about it.
Should I start an image pickin' thread now? Should I just delete the dummied out images? Was my infraction particularly bad?
Edited by DancouMaryuuopenDoubts on a page being relevant
So I stumbled upon UsefulNotes.Viscount Goderich being deleted, upon the argument that, basically, here at TV Tropes we are not out to have equivalents to Wikipedia, but rather to focus on how the subject appears in (or influences) fiction, and in this case, there were no media examples on the page, nor does Wikipedia itself have any reference to any portrayals in fiction (this actually started out a short-term thread
about similar pages about UK Prime Ministers). The point is, this discussion reminded me of a page that has basically the same issues: UsefulNotes.United Kingdom General Election 2015. The page is essentially a rather dry overview of that election... and that's it. No references to it being referenced in fiction, none. Nothing. If anything, in my view, the referendum that took place the following year that resulted in Brexit would be probably more worthy of a page like that since it has media about it that exists on This Very Wiki (like Brexit: The Uncivil War). Should we cut this page? I considered raising the question on a forum thread but I couldn't find one about a topic similar to this one (unless the aforementioned British Politicians threads counted as one, but I think that's a bit of a stretch).
openAlternateUniverse or AlternateTimeline ?
So I’m looking at this plot point of this show I used to be into called Every Witch Way with the fourth season.
To try to keep it short the fourth season has a storyline in which a Cosmic Retcon more or less decanonizes the first three, and heavily alters the lives of all the characters. This altered reality ultimately becomes the new "canon" timeline in the final season, with the first three being Exiled from Continuity. What I’m wondering is if this would be a case of Alternate Timeline or Alternate Universe, since it’s a case of the show’s universe rewriting the characters lives and practically erasing the first three seasons.
For reference the entry I was planning to make would look like this. I just need to know what trope it fits better with.
- Every Witch Way: The fourth and final season introduces the Continuum Break; an anomalous Cosmic Retcon caused by Emma unwittingly altering reality and giving the people around her alternate lives — seemingly erased or heavily altered the events of the first three seasons. In this alternate version of their lives Emma knew and dated Jax as far back as when when she first attended Iridium High; Daniel never knew Emma or their friends, and was living in the Everglades with his family, running an animal sanctuary; Jax more or less takes Daniel's place in their friends lives; Mia has also been dating and living Daniel; and where Mia's parents were deceased in her "original" life, not only are they still alive, but Mia herself no longe has her kanay powers.
openCheck TLP Votes?
I could have sworn there used to be an option to view who voted which way in a TLP draft, but for the life of me I cannot find the button to do so. I suspect a couple of self-hatters, but I can't tell for sure.
openJoke CM/MB Just For Fun questions
JustForFun.Joke Complete Monster and JustForFun.Joke Magnificent Bastard were just created. Given the current freeze on actual CM/MB entries I want to double-check if this is valid. The mod statement
on the matter said joke threads are not an issue, but this seems like a new thread created in response to the freeze which they said is not allowed, so unsure what to make of it.
From the Joke CM page:
- Pokémon Black and White: [[StrawHypocrite Ghetsis Harmonia Gropius]] is the true mastermind behind [[AnimalWrongsGroup Team Plasma]], and the man manipulating the "king" of the team, his son [[AntiVillain N]]. [[InsistentTerminology As we see on screen]], Ghetsis subjected his son N to various cruel forms of abuse as a child to mold him into a misanthrope who thinks that all Pokémon trainers are evil. Meanwhile, [[ImpliedTrope we have on-screen evidence]] that Ghetsis also abuses his own Pokémon and that they have no love for him. In the sequel ''VideoGame/PokemonBlack2AndWhite2'', after Team Plasma split apart, Ghetsis hatched a new scheme: he subjected Opelucid City to the [[{{Pun}} frigid]] [[FridgeHorror horror]] of being encaced in ice, [[InsistentTerminology as we see on screen]]. Motivated only by his own selfish desire to TakeOverTheWorld, Ghetsis is one of the most heinous villains to ever [[InsistentTerminology have their crimes depicted on-screen]] in the ''Pokémon'' games.
Not sure if this is a valid joke entry as this is a character many want to be a serious CM and the parts that show it a joke are hidden in potholes and even then not apparent to anyone unfamiliar with our CM rules. Or is that not an issue for a Just For Fun page?
openAudience Alienating Premise Literature cleanup
Under Audience-Alienating Premise, I noticed much under the Literature folder lacks the required objective proof of audiences alienation. It's going to be a big enough removal I'm getting feedback here first.
Literature can self publish and doesn't have the sales criteria that are normal proof of audience alienation. So I ask if it is possible to judge if literature applies?
Many of them use as proof they haven't been adapted, that seems like tedious proof (many even well received work don't get adapted), does that count?
openCM/Tragic Hero crossover, misuse?
I saw these approved Complete Monsters under Tragic Hero. I know they're disqualified from Tragic Villain as evil beyond having the remorse or sympathy required, and Griffith had his Tragic Hero entry cut over this (but it could have been over how selfish/ruthless he was even before is full fall to villainy). The entries in question.
- Wish: King Magnifico is a powerful king who once genuinely wanted to keep people safe and happy from the cruel reality and is beloved by all his subjects. But his narcissism and paranoia consume him to the point he's willing to do anything to remain in control over his kingdom including alienating his beloved wife and dabbling into forbidden magic. His flaws eventually turn him into a megalomaniacal tyrant and a classic Disney villain Hated by All. A decent amount of the backlash against the movie is that it failed to portray him as sympathetically as they wanted given his nuance, so this seems misuse as unintentional. This overlaps with Fallen Hero so can be moved.
- Emperor Belos from The Owl House serves as an example. Belos' obsession with being a hero and bigotry leads to his downfall and destruction. He was the supreme ruler of the Boiling Isles for over 50 years and beloved by nearly everyone, a fantasy dream come true for any typical power-hungry despot. However, he was willing to throw that away in favor of fame as Witch Hunter General, a fringe position that doesn't exist anymore in the Human Realm. He truly had everything he ever wanted in the Boiling Isles yet was too blind to see it because of his racist, ignorant views. His refusal to see reality ultimately leads him to die in the Boiling Isles rather than his hometown of Gravesfield, Hated by All in the Demon Realm and completely forgotten in the Human Realm. His achieving supreme rulership was only ever intended as a means to enact genocide, so misuse as written.
- Characters.The Owl House Emperor Belos: The show alludes Belos' character to Macbeth for a reason. Belos' obsession with being a hero and bigotry leads to his downfall and destruction. He murders Caleb in a fit of rage, and then spend four centuries trying to make up for the sin by eliminating all "evil" witches. Despite becoming a beloved leader of the witches, Belos' obsession to become a hero of humans drives him to betray his loyal followers. By the end of the series, he loses everything and dies unmourned in the Boiling Isles, and forgotten in the Human Realm. The Macbeth allusions show it's somewhat intended, and his original goal to save Caleb was heroic despite his period-appropriate prejudice only to very badly fall. He is, or was, nuanced despite how utterly vile he became. I'd say he's a Deconstructed Character Archetype of it as he seemingly fits the archetype, but twists it by his tragic/few humanizing aspects being twisted/driving him far past the point he loses all the sympathy associated and even the notion of being heroic has decayed to pure self-delusion.
They're tragic figures, but not sympathetic ones, a distinction Tragic Villain is misleading on given the name. Does that also apply to Tragic Hero as well? Thoughts on my proposed fixes for them?
openLarge removal of 'Unintentionally Sympathetic/Unsympathetic from YMMV/ShatteredSkiesTheMorningLights
Flare up from a bit ago that seems like a problematic edit.
By user Rbookchild
, it basically nuked the unintentionally sympathetic and unsympathetic sections because they disagreed with them. Which I am certainly aware does happen, but its also 'Your Mileage May Vary' and I've seen sentiments of that nature shared about the fic both in how many people edited or added to those sections here or commented elsewhere on the matter, so there are people with this opinion out there. Seems like a pretty clear case, and honestly I wouldn't hesitate to put it back myself and send a PM to Rbook on the matter, and I did send a PM a month ago that never got responded to, but I had previously edited the section twice. I neither created it or was the last one to edit it, and one of the edits was a general clean-up on the page that was previously unalphabetized, but I don't know if that would count as an edit war or not due to those edits, hence bringing it up here to avoid any issues.
openPage move request Literature
I've been thinking that the page for the Black Lagoon book series should be moved to The Black Lagoon which seems to be its official name, and it would help avoid confusion with the Black Lagoon anime. Is this something I can do myself or do I need permission from a mod first?
Edited by Javertshark13

Was alerted to this by a misplaced Content Policy thread.
Dark Flame Wolf seems to have been made by the fanfic writer and game modder it's about, and it's a mess.
I'm going to go ahead and cut the YMMV page since the only example is misuse, but what about the rest?
Edited by StarSword