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open Unfortunate Unfortunate Implications in YMMV/StevenUniverse Western Animation
Yesterday, Keshali added this to the Unfortunate Implications section of YMMV.Steven Universe:
- While Steven Universe is typically considered a trailblazer for LGBT representation, a lot of LGBT viewers and critics have pointed out its representation is actually pretty horrible
, from its relentless apologism of characters allegorical of homophobes (Homeworld, Uncle Andy) to the only actual LGBT characters being Discount Lesbians. To say nothing on the ambiguity of Bismuth’s racial coding.
- While Steven Universe is typically considered a trailblazer for LGBT representation, a lot of LGBT viewers and critics have pointed out its representation is actually pretty horrible
I have several problems with it. My write-up ended up being longer than intended, so TL;DR, the entry is built on blatantly false information from a website I'm not even sure counts as reputable, and I would like permission to remove it.
- This one's more of a general question, but does PopMatters even count as a good source? A quick look at the site shows it to be a generic news and music review site.
- Saying the Diamonds and Andy are given "relentless apologism" is blatantly untrue for the former and downright nonsensical for the latter. Whenever the Diamonds’ bigotry for Fusion (in this case used as an allegory for same-sex relationships) is brought up, the narrative and characters always treat it as a horrendous way of thinking, to the point that the climax for one of the penultimate episodes has the Crystal Gems fuse with each other in defiance of them and basically say "this is how we live our lives and we're not going to change that, so you can take your hate and shove it". And Andy... is never once portrayed as a homophobe. Old fashioned with a bit of Fantastic Racism, yeah, but he never once makes any comments that imply he's homophobic - in fact, when talking about how his family drifted apart after Greg left, he positively talks about his aunt and her partner (implied to be another woman), and later willingly attends a same-sex wedding with no fuss and has a good time at the reception.
- Regarding the Gems (or at least Ruby, Sapphire, and Pearl) being Discount Lesbians, Word of God - but not the show itself - confirmed that Gems are a sexless, genderless species that appear feminine and use she/her pronouns. Being genderless doesn't mean they can't be lesbians if they want to be, but I digress.
- As for Ruby and Sapphire's love for each other and Pearl's love for Rose being the only LGBT+ representation, this is also false. A lesbian couple and their son frequently appear in the background during the show, one episode has Pearl getting a crush on a human woman who reciprocates her advances, there are various moments where human characters blush or show attraction towards characters of the same gender (or characters they believe to be the same gender in Stevonnie's case) and all of Steven’s Fusions (in this context being an allegory for platonic and familial relationships) barring one use they/them pronouns, and Stevonnie is outright confirmed to be intersex and non-binary.
- Also, the bit about Bismuth and her possible racial coding feels really tacked on. Like, the entire entry talks about LGBT representation, and then randomly drops that sentence at the end without going into it more.
openUndertale cleanup page Videogame
I want to discuss something that's about a general cleanup page for potentially every Undertale page. Specifically, I want to remove lines in articles where the tropers themselves refer the players who do the Genocide route a Complete Monster, or something similar to that, without it being an example of when the game itself is trying to make the player feel like a Complete Monster.
openSpeculative Troping on Peter Rabbit?
Dreamkwami19
added a lot of commented out examples on the character subpages for the Peter Rabbit movie. What's bizarre is that they seem to troping characters from the upcoming 2020 sequel and listing stuff that has not been confirmed yet.
And these aren't little things. These are entries that are either entirely made-up, or had to have come from a leaked source. Here's some examples from Peter Rabbit Film Villains regarding Barnabas, a character who hasn't even had a voice actor confirmed yet:
- Abusive Parents: He is Myles’ father and, considering he used Myles as leverage against Cottontail, it is unlikely he would be earning any father of the year awards any time soon or ever.
- Asshole Victim: He is killed off and no one mourns it.
- Big Bad: He is the true main antagonist of the sequel and one of the, if not THE, most evil and depraved villains in Sony Pictures Animation.
- Complete Monster: If the fact that he is trying to stain the Rabbits’ name is anything to fit the trope to a T then the fact that he had a hand in Peter Rabbit’s father’s death tops the cake.
- Disney Villain Death: He is thrown off the train by Cottontail to his death to which everyone takes in a satisfied manner given his crimes.
- False Friend: He is only using Peter Rabbit to get closer to Cottontail and his own son.
- Knight of Cerebus: He is the most manipulative and evil villain yet and is willing to use his own son as leverage against the Rabbits.
- Manipulative Bastard: He is willing to use the Rabbits and his son for his own selfish benefits.
- The Quisling: Betrayed Peter Rabbit’s father and had him killed by Old Man Mc Gregor.
- Would Hurt a Child: Sends Snarl in his Gregory Rouge disguise to a store loaded with children.
I think their examples should be deleted on principle, but I wanted second thoughts before I do so.
openCustom Title misuse Videogame
Okay, I'm perplexed... the page for the fangame VideoGame.Fredbear And Friends has a custom title that turns it to "Fazbear and Friends". This is a misuse of the system; the work page itself seems to confirm the title is Fazbear and Friends, so I don't know why it was put in a different Wiki Word in the first place.
Before moving it, though, I noticed the page has lots of wicks, and there's also a WebAnimation.Fazbear And Friends page already existing.
Anybody has an idea how this situation came to be?
openShenanigans on the Hinduism page
On UsefulNotes.Hinduism, it has a WMG page and the phrase "By fully understanding how those fundamental particles react with each other, they could understand creation itself, and transcend it" is potholed to Does This Remind You of Anything?
Edited by WillbyropenShould Ferris (from Re:Zero) Be considered Transgender? Anime
Hi, I'm new to posting here, though I've browsed for longer. I'm a fan of the book series ReZero
, but what caught my interest while browsing the trope page was the fact that in the Re Zero Character Sheet Ferris is listed as a crossdressing boy, yet in the Transgender page Ferris is also listed as a transwoman. I think that these are conflicting statements or something. and a bit confusing? Idk. But I wanted to know whether Ferris should be considered a trans girl or a crossdressing boy.
Now. I personally believe that Ferris is a trans woman having read the bulk of the series. And these are some of my reasoning's as to why. Sorry if this is too long.
- Ferris legally goes by Felix Argyle, but she wishes to be called Ferris. In her introduction she reiterates to her boss that being called Felix upsets her,
and that "It's Ferris, Not Felix." Her birth name is rarely used in the story. This is akin to a trans person's deadname.
- In the side novel EX 1, it is shown that not even Fourier, one of her best friends, was aware that she had another name that she never used,
as Ferris does not like talking about the past, to the point where she doesn't tell people her birth name.
- In the side novel EX 1, it is shown that not even Fourier, one of her best friends, was aware that she had another name that she never used,
- In the English books, Ferris is addressed with male pronouns after her introduction. yet in the japanese version, she frequently uses feminine pronouns, this fact is also stated on the character sheet.
- Most importantly, there is a scene in her side novel Volume EX 1 which shows that for the last 6 years, Ferris has been praying to be a girl,
reaffirming herself everyday when she is alone in the mirror. The Narrator goes on to state that she no longer had to say these words, as they were already apart of the person who spoke them for 6 years.
- There is also a scene in EX 1 which shows that she dreaded coming out to Fourier about her birth gender, as she feared that, like other people, he would no longer want to be her friend.
- Ferris also states that she will never wear men's clothes again. In an interview on Twitter, the Author stated that the one time she wore men's clothes, she actually cried.
- And there is also the small fact that Ferris has been in a couple of video game crossovers that feature them in all-girls casts. I just figured I might add that in.
I know of a popular counterargument that might be brought up. That one is that Ferris in Arc 4 says that "He is a man in heart and soul" according to fan translations of the Web Novel. However, in the Official Light Novel release, This line is omitted and replaced with a line that reads "This outfit is a reflection of my body and spirit." I feel this has a much different meaning than the former line, as the outfit Ferris wears is a girls outfit, and it doesn't seem to imply that she identifies as male. This line is omitted in Volume 10 of the Light Novel, which the author considers to be the final version of the book series. Arc 4 was also released in 2013, when EX 1 and Volume 10 were released post 2015.
All-in-all, these points, alongside other evidence I didn't mention, are why I also think Ferris is trans, and I'd like to know what to make of this.
Edited by SneekshionopenJessica Jones recap - Maybe ever after Live Action TV
Regarding the final episode of Jessica Jones. I originally removed the example MaybeEverAfter due to the definition of a hint or implication a successful conclusion to a romance arc. I thought that was no indication of such an implication, the break up seemed pretty final with no hint of continuing. Of course with the cancellation of the show itself there will definitely be no continuing. While Erik the person she broke up decided to become someone worthy of her. That is no indication that would mean she would take him back or seek to re-establish the relationship. To be fair I used Luke’s return one of the examples as to why that MaybeEverAfter did not apply. Which is not a factor come to think of it. It was added back after removal and I was wondering if it warranted removal again. As the example is that the relationship will return as "probably" or "kinda sorta maybe." But there was no indication of that in the final. They broke up, he resolved to be a better person. She focused on stopping Trish and that was it. I removed the example because the main thing is a “reasonable” likelihood they would end up together. There was no hint of that in the final and with the cancellation no further chance of that happening. Is it valid for removal again.
Edited by Tuvokopen1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die
Literature.One Thousand And One Movies You Must See Before You Die was recently cut, the reason given being that "it's basically just a list of works without any commentary or anything otherwise tropable". There is precedent for such lists (AFIS 100 Years 100 Movies, BFI Top 100 British Films, The Criterion Collection, Empire The 500 Greatest Movies Of All Time, Time All Time 100 Movies, and Roger Ebert Great Movies List), and moreover I disagree that there is nothing tropable.
For those not familiar with 1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die, it is a book released annually since 2003 containing a list of 1001 movies with each entry accompanied by a short essay. It is a very popular list, both on this website and elsewhere. There is a List Challenge with over 50 000 users
, a wiki
, a subreddit
, innumerable IMDb lists, and a bunch of other places online, all dedicated to the list and watching all the movies on it. The list here on TV Tropes had over 1800 inbound links.
As for tropability, the book itself is a Doorstopper at 960 pages, the title is Exactly What It Says on the Tin, the selection of entries is subject to Cultural Translation (a certain number of entries are replaced with local entries in the translated editions), and the essays contain tropes (for instance, the essay for In the Realm of the Senses says that It's Not Porn, It's Art). There is already a YMMV.One Thousand And One Movies You Must See Before You Die page, and as noted above the book is subject to The Wiki Rule.
With all this in mind, I think the article should be restored. Being one of the people who aims to see all the films on the list, I personally found the list with links to all the films very helpful for navigation, and I suspect I'm not the only one. Adding a list of tropes pertaining to the list is not a tall order, it's just that nobody had done so.
openMLPFIM Season 9 Fridge Horror Western Animation
Didn't know if I should ask this on the forum or here. Spoiler warning as this involves a plot twist for season 9 of My Little Pony Friendship is Magic.
Given that "Grogar" turned out to be a fake, should the following Fridge Horror entries about him be cut:
- Grogar is powerful enough to make Tirek, Chrysalis, and Cozy Glow, all top tier season-ender villains themselves, AFRAID... and he's NOT at full power yet!
- Considering how powerful Grogar is without his bell, the villain trio deciding to betray him by stealing the bell for themselves might be the only reason why Equestria isn't flattened to the ground.
- Instead of giving Grogar his bell, Tirek, Chrysalis, and Cozy lie to him and claim they were unable to retrieve it. Grogar seems furious at this, but he has shown in the past to be able to view previous events. What if he finds out about their lie later, or already knows about it and has plans to deal with his traitors later?
- Grogar makes it very clear that, even in his weakened state, he has far more power than the three of them combined. With the bell still there as far as he knows, what's stopping him from trying to go get it himself now that the others have at least learned to cooperate, only to find it missing?
- With the amount of power Grogar would have gained upon getting his Bewitching Bell back, who's to say he wouldn't have decided he doesn't need the others anymore? Even if he had other plans for them initially, he's far more likely to decide that should he learn of their betrayal.
openSite bug?
Basically I edited an article, and press save. The problem is that I'm not then redirected back to the page itself, but stayed in the edit page. I pressed save again (because I'm not sure if the first press is working or not), and is redirected back. When I checked the edit history, there's 2 entries: one is my proper edit, and the 2nd is a null edit.
Is this a site bug or a bug with my browser? I'm not sure, and I don't want to accidentally do a null edit again.
Edited by onyhowopenDeleting a trope from a work page Live Action TV
I find myself very reluctant to just delete something someone else posted, but while watching the work and reading its tropes page side-by-side I realized an entry was wrong. Posting an additional comment with a correction would be natter. Should I just delete it, or ask a moderator to do so, or what is the right thing?
The page is the Doctor Who recap page "The Green Death" and reads:
- Toxic, Inc.: We never find out what Global Chemicals does make other than toxic waste.
While watching the episode I saw we do indeed find out what Global Chemicals makes: it’s an oil refinery with a new process that produces 25% more usable fuel from each barrel of crude oil. The new process however produces more toxic waste as a by-product (where the extra mass comes from is not discussed).
openKyoAni OSHA Compliance?
First of all, may all those who died in the fire rest in peace.
That being said, I was wondering if the July 18th 2019 fire at Kyoto Animation could fall under the No OSHA Compliance trope (under Real Life), if it would be zigzagged or something. Based on descriptions of the building itself (no sprinklers, a spiral staircase, a difficult-to-open emergency door) this could be an example. But then, I was also thinking it's being zigzagged because the building passed the local fire codes - the structure was apparently built with accidental fires in mind, but the incident was an arson, so the damage was much worse.
openSelf-Demonstrating icon
Why is the icon for the Self-Demonstrating namespace some kind of fruit? (See here)
openAdding a hat on a draft I grabbed
Few days ago I grabbed a very old draft, Barbarian Tropes
, which has right now 4 hats. I'm basically done with it, I just have to discuss whether to reorganise the tropes present there and whether to add only a few more. Theoretically, nothing prevents me to add the fifth hat and launch it myself when I'll feel it is ready, but I'd feel like that would be "cheating" on the rules of the TLP, since if I had started the draft from scratch I wouldn't have been able to add a hat; like if I forcibly launched a draft with still 4 hats. Is it better for me to wait for a fifth hat by a third part, or what I'm saying was already done in the past without consequences?
openNever My Fault edit war
On this
recap page for an episode of Bojack Horseman, there's an edit war for a Never My Fault entry. For context, one episode of the series has Bojack hanging out with some teenagers on their prom night. He gives them alcohol, but when one gets alcohol poisoning, he convinces her boyfriend not to tell where the alcohol came from and left them by themselves. In the latest season, the boyfriend, Pete, returns again and recounts the story to Bojack's sister, Hollyhock.
A Never My Fault entry was originally added, stating that Pete put the blame solely on Bojack despite the fact that Pete gladly encouraged them drinking. Ben Beasted removed it with the edit reason "Just because they were already drinking doesn't absolve Bo Jack of responsibility. He wen out of his way to get harder alcohol and left both of them behind at the hospital." Chubzac, the original poster, re-added it with the edit reason, "Just because Bojack holds some responsibility doesn't mean Pete and Maddie aren't also at fault. They were already drinking before Bojack met them and willingly chose to drink the alcohol Bojack bought them. Pete is twisting facts about Bojack forcing them to drink Bourbon against their will."
Personally I think this is more a YMMV response of Pete being portrayed as faultless, since the episode itself doesn't seem to point any blame on him. This reception happened before when Diane accused Bojack of taking advantage of Sarah Lynn. It's under Unintentionally Unsympathetic for the episode, for the record. In any case, should they be alerted for edit-warring?
open Question about an obscure DC Character Print Comic
I was reading information pertaining to Grant Morrison recently and it was referencing all the forms he has taken in various comics written by both himself and others. I unexpectedly had the topic come up again today in a conversation and was looking up a piece of information I had noticed. There was reference to (if I remember correctly) a Silver Age DC Comics time traveler that looked like Grant Morrison in his signature look years before he had adopted it. This isn't the Invisibles or anything since it wasn't by Morrison. It was just a weird coincidence someone was noting. Now, I know most time travelling characters across various publishers and I just can't place who this might actually be. It was either someone stretching what they thought or something I just haven't found through any cursory searching. I have a set of links from the day I saw that but I'll dig through all of it to find the answer. Was just seeing if there was a more expedient way of digging this up however. Now, is there anyone who might have any idea what I may be talking about?
open Rules regarding fake links
What I'm referring to is the (ab)use of the [[url]] system (or an equivalent like Google's hyperlinks, or Steam's [url]HTML Tags[/url]) to make one link lead to another as a form of trolling. As an example, https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/JustForFun/Rickroll
appears to link to JustForFun.Rickroll, but instead leads to the video itself.note Even though it's quite obvious that a sane troper would use the WikiWords on their own, which renders as Rickroll. Not to mention that the "preview" in the lower-left invariably shows the real link regardless. A more extreme example is where you're at work, on your work computer, when a coworker sends you an email saying that they need help with a contract they've put on Google Docs. The link appears legit, but when you click on it, it instead leads to a XXX dark-web porn-site that usually sets off the trackers in the wi-fi. Worst case scenario, you get fired, while the trollish coworker gets away scot free.
What I want to know are the policies regarding stuff like this, just out of curiosity.
Edited by GofastmikeopenSlight edit war or something over at Hazbin Hotel
Bringing this up also here since I was advised to
from the Is this an example thread.
Context:
Tropers/Napoleon_Blownapart apparently wants to add a certain trivia about Jeffrey Dahmer
to Hazbin Hotel. That Jeffrey apparently was repentant for his crimes and technically shouldn't be in Hell in this setting or something along those lines.
Originally it was just a random note they included to a Historical Domain Character entry they added. As such it was removed by another troper.
Napoleon_Blownapart later readded the trivia back in another form under as Historical Villain Upgrade.
- Historical Villain Upgrade: Played with. A little-known fact about the real Jeffery is that he actually always despised himself for having the monstrous urges he did, and made every attempt to save his soul after he went to prison. Even if Hell worked such that he wound up there anyway, starting up a cannibal cooking show is one of the last things he'd do, and would be one of the first in line for services like what Charlie is offering.
After some time, another troper Tropers/three_of_Six removed it with the reason "The man was a child abuser and a liar. Nothing in that entry is even close to being true."
Napoleon_Blownapart readded it back citing a passage from Jeffery's Wikipedia page as a reason.
three_of_Six removed it again saying "Very much YMMV. He might have claimed to want redemption but his actions did not reflect that." and citing another passage from Jeffery's Wikipedia page.
Napoleon_Blownapart as a result has decided to add the entry over at the YMMV page of the show instead.
Sidenote:
Jeffrey Dahmer doesn't actually appear in-person in the show. His likeness only appears on a background poster and he's mainly used as a brief Black Comedy Cannibalism joke.
Question:
What should the proper course of action be? I'm tempted to remove the entry yet again on the basis that it's not a YMMV trope. However, I don't want to continue further this slight edit war or something.
Edited by Elfkaiser

So, in simple terms, what are the guidlines for adding a video example? Are there any specific channels I need to go through before adding one, or can I simply add it to the page?
Are GI Fs acceptable video examples, or do they need to be longer?
And if I wanted a specific You Tube video used as a video example, but I am unable to download it and add it myself, is there a way to get it added still?