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Ask the Tropers:
openQuestion about spoilers for tropes;
If the fact that the trope applies is a spoiler in and of itself, could it potentially be worth spoiling the trope name and example separately so that if someone wanted to know, they could reveal the trope name first and then decide if they want to see the example from there?
openUsing swearing when describing tropes - permitted or forbidden?
I know gratuitous profanity in examples is listed as Word Cruft while also being a Bluenose Bowdlerizer is discouraged, but as far as TV Tropes' generally accepted and striven for writing conventions in articles, does using terms like "fucks it up", "being an asshole", or "being his dumbass self" go against any of the Adminstrivia policies when editing articles? I know we have more lenient POV guidelines than Wikipedia or Fandom like allowing the generic "Tropes that apply" or "Visit the unabridged version HERE" being allowed to be written to reflect a quote or theme of the work documented, but I don't know if the same applies to asterisk-preceded examples.
I'm mainly talking about pages on works in any medium rather than Tropes themselves, as those are usually written from a subjective and generalizing standpoint with some humor thrown in at the beginning paragraph and/or folders if it's comedic or imitating the character subject of the trope. But from my experience, examples on a work's page are described more seriously, but I'm not sure what the line is for occasional allowances of language in example descriptions that wouldn't change the meaning/point either way if they were changed into something more informal (-> being an asshole -> being a jerk -> being arrogant/selfish/rude). Even if such a rule were in place or preferred, tropes that already have profanity in the title like Asshole Victim or Bitch in Sheep's Clothing would obviously be exceptions whether following the asterisk or being mentioned in a sentence after the colon of another trope, since Sinkholing is forbidden as a format regardless of the trope name.
I'm also wondering if it depends on the target demographic of the work and/or the subpage the profane descriptions of an applicable trope is used? What may seem like conventional description on a South Park example feels a bit out of place on a SpongeBob one.
Edited by TacoyogoopenProblem troper
Urania 1204 re-added ZC Es without actually adding context to the entry itself on at least two separate occasions (here)
and here
. They've also misused tropes
, and added aversions as an example here
. I've sent notifiers and reverted edits where someone else hasn't already done so, but given that and their prior conduct (including in a previous ATT query thread
), what should be done next?
openSelf-Demonstrating page interaction entry removed without reason
About a couple days ago, WELLBEBACK7653 removed
this interaction entry from Self-Demonstrating.Alastor without citing an edit reason.
- SOMEBODY GET THIS DERANGED EMBODIMENT OF LUST AWAY FROM ME BECAUSE I CAN'T EVEN MAKE THE MOVE TO TEAR HER TO PIECEEEEES!!!!! note Angel: Let me think... no. Actually, you two should kiss. Alastor: ANGELLLLLL!!!
Personally, I see nothing wrong with this entry, so could it be added back without problem?
I've already notified WELLBEBACK about this query.
openWeird edit on the ShoutOut page of ''Honkai Impact 3rd''
I was about to edit ShoutOut.Honkai Impact3rd again to add or update some examples, but noticed in the page source
that there's a "numlist" tag that hides some content in-between.
For instance in the source, you could see an example which mentions "Blade Mode" from Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, but it doesn't appear normally in the live page.
Administrivia.Text Formatting Rules does say "numlist" has a side-effect of hiding blocks of text, but is it okay to use it in "live" pages? AFAIK, it seems like a way of hiding some kind of draft, which a Sandbox may be more suitable for. What bothered me at first glance is the "numlist" block being inserted right in the middle of the page's source.
The edit history
I'll be sending them a PM assuming they wanted to re-organize the entire page while adding more examples but haven't finished it yet... but I still want to ask more opinions on how this should be done, because I think there are different ways or alternatives on where to draft the updated re-organization of the Shout-Out page without having to insert some hidden code in between.
- Should some kind of separate Sandbox page be created now for the attempt at re-organizing the Shout-Out page?
- Should I move the hidden "numlist" block below the page itself so that the page source won't be confusing to look at?
- Or should I just wait for troper Zerobeat to finish editing the ShoutOut.Honkai Impact3rd page itself?
I've made an ATT like this just in case because most of the Honkai Impact 3rd pages seem to be abandoned, including the game's specific Forums
openSEO
Hello everyone! I appreciate it may not be asking in the right place, but may search engine optimisation matters be discussed? With My Hero Academia as an example, excellently what could be called the most prominent areas are appearing when the series is searched for using Google Chrome for instance where it’s certainly helpful for readers to come across the Manga main page, and the characters as well for the top search results.
When the Search feature here on TV Tropes is used however, the current top results are the Dethroning Moment / My Hero Academia - TV Tropes and Fanfic Recs / My Hero Academia - TV Tropes areas https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/search_result.php?cx=partner-pub-6610802604051523%3Aamzitfn8e7v&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&siteurl=&ref=&ss=&q=my+hero+academia#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=my%20hero%20academia&gsc.page=1
It’s wonderful that people are free to share their views and those areas are important, yet where an average reader is concerned would it be better if the main page and character ones were appearing first for them to see?
If search data for TV Tropes does show that readers are seeking out these pages and those are in practice better to be at the top of the results then that’s all good. However if not then it may be best if the main articles concerning the series itself appear first. Improved SEO might help readers more readily locate what they are searching for which would help them and the TV Tropes site itself.
Should it be new information, this might be something that just concerns My Hero Academia. Searching for various series brings up what would be the most notable areas for them. It’s franchises such as Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, then TV series such as House of the Dragon that all have the same setup. Anime series such as Attack on Titan are similar, it’s just for whatever reason My Hero Academia has its own thing going on!
If the current setup is helpful for what is best here that’s good, but if it’s beneficial to point out, then should there be technical updates to ensure that these pages appear first? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/MyHeroAcademia
(and) https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/MyHeroAcademia
Not sure if that’s even useful to share, but being of the view that all the lovely articles should be available IMMEDIATELY! thought it might be helpful to raise in any case!
openEdit Reason: "Removing the excessive content"? Anime
I know Word Cruft is a reason for editing down an entry, but is it actually applicable in this case?
On November 4th
, I/Rebel Falcon, edited the entry for the trope "Because You Were Nice to Me" for the character Kyoka Jiro on My Hero Academia - Class 1-A (11-20) to provide further context, and I didn't think the entry was that long or required any Word Cruft.
- Because You Were Nice to Me: Jiro initially didn't have much of a connection with Midoriya throughout the school year. During the preparation for the Culture Festival however, she approached him for aid in neatening up her notes on music, initially embarrassed at needing to ask but finding herself pleasantly surprised the more they worked together, slowly transitioning into the two becoming genuine friends. She brings up this moment specifically when all of Class 1-A come to bring him back to U.A. High after he had left due to becoming a target for Shigaraki due to his possession of One For All, telling him how happy she was to find they shared a hobby in note taking and, that while he has gotten stronger, she doesn't want her friend having to suffer for their sake.
- Because You Were Nice to Me: During Class 1-A's fight against Midoriya, when they try to bring him to back U.A. High, Jiro brings up to him how they bonded over their shared habit of making notes to improve their works (for Izuku, it's his combat skills, for Jiro, it's her musical skills) and how he helped her prepare for the School Festival as a way to convince him to return, even if she know it's only a minor moment.
EDIT: I am not trying to get anyone in trouble, this is just me trying to clear up some genuine confusion on my end. Edited by RebelFalcon
openDanganronpa Ship Tease
So, recently it was voted that Hifumi and Celeste should be removed from the Ship Tease page for Danganronpa. There is one person that I do think Celeste has Ship Tease with though and I wanted to get other peoples' opinions before I added it to the Ship Tease page for Danganronpa. I think she has Ship Tease with Makoto (most specifically in School Mode). They have a ton of wholesome interactions together such as Celeste saying that she would allow Makoto to give her a yellow rose, saying that she likes the thought of teaching Makoto the techniques of darts, and if Makoto says that something is off in the garden due to the others she says not to concern himself with them and that all that matters is that they are having fun together. If you choose the best possible option for dialogue she admits that she had a lot of fun and tells Makoto to feel free to talk to him whenever he feels like it. During her Trigger Happy Heart Event her biggest worry is whether or not Makoto will stay with her and it also implies that the higher ranks in her ranking system are romantic. The best possible option is Makoto affirming that he will stay by her side. During their graduation event she promotes him to B-rank which he graciously accepts and Makoto internally admits that he thought he might go blind by how brightly she was shining. It ends with Celeste saying, "Now, let us depart. Onward, toward the day we stand atop our castle together."
You could argue that they have some Ship Tease together in Free Time Events and the main story as well. In the main story she invites Makoto to go on a walk with her in Chapter 2 (although he declines) and in the third trial when Makoto pleads with her to tell the truth she actually hesitates for a moment before resuming her facade. I have also seen some people say that her 'culprit-is-you' shot looked like she and Makoto were about to kiss. In her 1st FTE she shared her perfect gambling strategy with Makoto right out the gate, in her 5th FTE she considers them close friends, and in her 6th FTE she shyly asks Makoto to her room and promotes him to C-rank, and even admits that she feels like he might have potential for A-rank.
So, do you guys think they have Ship Tease? And if so, do you think it is only in School Mode? Only in Free Time Events/main story? Both? Please let me know.Thank you.
openDanganronpa Ship Tease
So, recently it was voted that Hifumi and Celeste should be removed from the Ship Tease page for Danganronpa. There is one person that I do think Celeste has Ship Tease with though and I wanted to get other peoples' opinions before I added it to the Ship Tease page for Danganronpa. I think she has Ship Tease with Makoto (most specifically in School Mode). They have a ton of wholesome interactions together such as Celeste saying that she would allow Makoto to give her a yellow rose, saying that she likes the thought of teaching Makoto the techniques of darts, and if Makoto says that something is off in the garden due to the others she says not to concern himself with them and that all that matters is that they are having fun together. If you choose the best possible option for dialogue she admits that she had a lot of fun and tells Makoto to feel free to talk to him whenever he feels like it. During her Trigger Happy Heart Event her biggest worry is whether or not Makoto will stay with her and it also implies that the higher ranks in her ranking system are romantic. The best possible option is Makoto affirming that he will stay by her side. During their graduation event she promotes him to B-rank which he graciously accepts and Makoto internally admits that he thought he might go blind by how brightly she was shining. It ends with Celeste saying, "Now, let us depart. Onward, toward the day we stand atop our castle together."
You could argue that they have some Ship Tease together in Free Time Events and the main story as well. In the main story she invites Makoto to go on a walk with her in Chapter 2 (although he declines) and in the third trial when Makoto pleads with her to tell the truth she actually hesitates for a moment before resuming her facade. I have also seen some people say that her 'culprit-is-you' shot looked like she and Makoto were about to kiss. In her 1st FTE she shared her perfect gambling strategy with Makoto right out the gate, in her 5th FTE she considers them close friends, and in her 6th FTE she shyly asks Makoto to her room and promotes him to C-rank, and even admits that she feels like he might have potential for A-rank.
So, do you guys think they have Ship Tease? And if so, do you think it is only in School Mode? Only in Free Time Events/main story? Both? Please let me know.Thank you.
openDanganronpa Ship Tease
Hello. How is everyone? So I believe that Hifumi and Celeste do not qualify for Ship Tease on the Ship Tease page for Danganronpa. I wanted to get permission to remove it so here are the points that are misunderstood or wrong.
“Seems to see his attraction to her as an exception to his usual "no 3-D girls" policy” -This is untrue. Nowhere in the game does he say this or even imply this. This acts like his “no 3-D girls” isn’t a load of BS. His “I’m only into 2D” rule is clearly untrue. He expresses attraction towards pretty much all of the girls, not just Celeste.
“Is driven to outright murder Kiyotaka to "avenge" Celeste after she tells him that he assaulted her” -Not really. His primary motive for murdering Kiyotaka was to reclaim Alter Ego (the one he had feelings for). This is exemplified when after Celeste explains everything to him and asks him if they can allow him to continue with these barbaric acts, he responds with “Absolutely not! How could I?! She… she… I have to save heeeeeeerr!!!” showing that Alter Ego is his motivation for his actions. Never in that conversation did he talk about avenging Celeste. While he was disgusted by what Ishimaru “did” it was more so due to the act itself rather than it having been “done” to Celeste.
“His last words reveal that prior to the killing game, Celeste trusted Hifumi enough to tell him her real name (the source of all her insecurities).” -While this is true there seems to be a common misconception regarding this. A lot of people from what I have seen seem to think that she only told Hifumi which is untrue. She told the whole class, not just him. The whole point of that scene was Hifumi recalling their school life and how Celeste revealed that to everyone. He WAS trying to namedrop his killer so it would not have made any sense for him to say her real name if she hadn’t told everyone.
As for the Danganronpa Togami thing I am almost certain he meant platonically for two reasons. 1) His wording of "I would die for the ones I love!" implies platonic as he says ones instead of one. 2) It would be wildly out of character if he meant romantically considering his whole "I'm only into 2D" rule.
Even without these points their relationship is never portrayed as ship tease. It is a joke at best and toxic at worst as it consists of Hifumi being creepy and perverted and Celeste yelling at him and using him. Not to mention it being too one-sided. There is a reason why Kazuichi and Sonia and Byakuya and Toko are not listed under here.
So, what do you guys think? Should it be removed?
openMore issues with LetsGetDangerous
I brought this up before with the Real Life and Sports examples on the Let's Get Dangerous! page, and after getting consensus from the troper community I went ahead and removed those examples because they simply did not fit the trope description of a character being "quirky and eccentric", then suddenly displaying abilities or badassery they never displayed before, then going back to being "quirky and eccentric". Looking more closely at the page, there's a lot of examples that either don't fit, or are being heavily shoehorned to fit. Just looking at the Comics folder: Clark Kent is not quirky and eccentric''. Spider-Man jokes around a lot, but he's not "quirky and eccentric" and most people in the MCU know to take him seriously as an opponent, or a good man to have on your side in a team-up. He isn't a "quirky and eccentric" ineffectual sidekick before a big fight, and doesn't go back to being one afterwards. Susan Storm of The Fantastic Four isn't "quirky and eccentric", she just Took a Level in Badass as she found new and inventive ways to use her powers. Over in Film, just one example that does not fit is Wanda stepping up to the plate to fight Ultron's drones in Age of Ultron. She wasn't "quirky and eccentric" before or after, she was a woman unused to combat who got pushed into a corner and came out swinging. It's not just the page itself. For the Rocky 3 page, there's a Let's Get Dangerous! entry for Rocky during his charity fight with Thunderlips. That's more The Gloves Come Off, as Rocky was not "quirky and eccentric" before or after this fight, he was a boxer fighting a wrestler and had to adapt to have a chance at winning. My point is there's a lot of misuse of this trope, both on the page itself and on other pages. This is being used to cover The Gloves Come Off, Beware the Silly Ones, Took a Level in Badass, etc. instead of those examples being used properly. I think the main difficulty here is having examples that truly adhere to the definition of the trope.
openNo Real Life Examples, kinda?
I don't understand why some pages like Quarantine Failure, have a strict rule about No Real Life Examples, Please!, but then immediately give examples of the taboo subject, within the body of the text. Seems self-defeating. I can't remember what other pages I've seen that did this.
Why not change the rules to, No *Recent* Real Life Examples, Please.
Edited by dieseldragonsopenInappropriate Author Troping?
Cat Coin 777 added these to Tamers 12345 Pony Animation and its YMMV page.
- Stay in the Kitchen: Despite being a homosexual work in 2024, the work is gender conforming, Tamers himself, the author. Describes himself in the gay spectrum, is heteronormative, that means women are femenine, and men have manly tendencys period. Written as complaining against author. Also asking why does this allow real life examples?
- Toilet Humour: No, it’s not a fetish. Yes Tamers founds it funny (up to eleven). Clear creator bashing and ZCE otherwise.
- Love to Hate: Just becayse this is a homosexual authored work, does not mean it’s progressive, Tamers himself is very heteronormative, yet, such traditionalism may add to the surreal humour. Far as I can tell, Tamers is not an in-universe character so author bashing. Also just realized Love to Hate isn't no real life examples, why?
It seems like a particularly contentious work, not sure if it needs further attention beyond those recent edits. Thoughts?
openAbout spoilers
I know this aspect has been raised before by others (including myself) in ATT and elsewhere, but since this site operates by a "mediational wiki-style editing" format, is it sometimes appropriate to get a consensus among fellow tropers when someone challenges the spoiler-tagging on certain character pages like Fairy Tail (for context, the previous discussion on this occurred years ago
where it was agreed to remove the spoiler tags from these pages, and there's a more recent dedicated cleanup thread here
, where I suggested we should wait for a consensus regarding what should be done with the spoilers), the Marvel Cinematic Universe (where there's also a dedicated cleanup thread here
) and so on?
Just wanted to be sure.
Edited by gjjonesopenCM/Tragic Hero crossover, misuse?
I saw these approved Complete Monsters under Tragic Hero. I know they're disqualified from Tragic Villain as evil beyond having the remorse or sympathy required, and Griffith had his Tragic Hero entry cut over this (but it could have been over how selfish/ruthless he was even before is full fall to villainy). The entries in question.
- Wish: King Magnifico is a powerful king who once genuinely wanted to keep people safe and happy from the cruel reality and is beloved by all his subjects. But his narcissism and paranoia consume him to the point he's willing to do anything to remain in control over his kingdom including alienating his beloved wife and dabbling into forbidden magic. His flaws eventually turn him into a megalomaniacal tyrant and a classic Disney villain Hated by All. A decent amount of the backlash against the movie is that it failed to portray him as sympathetically as they wanted given his nuance, so this seems misuse as unintentional. This overlaps with Fallen Hero so can be moved.
- Emperor Belos from The Owl House serves as an example. Belos' obsession with being a hero and bigotry leads to his downfall and destruction. He was the supreme ruler of the Boiling Isles for over 50 years and beloved by nearly everyone, a fantasy dream come true for any typical power-hungry despot. However, he was willing to throw that away in favor of fame as Witch Hunter General, a fringe position that doesn't exist anymore in the Human Realm. He truly had everything he ever wanted in the Boiling Isles yet was too blind to see it because of his racist, ignorant views. His refusal to see reality ultimately leads him to die in the Boiling Isles rather than his hometown of Gravesfield, Hated by All in the Demon Realm and completely forgotten in the Human Realm. His achieving supreme rulership was only ever intended as a means to enact genocide, so misuse as written.
- Characters.The Owl House Emperor Belos: The show alludes Belos' character to Macbeth for a reason. Belos' obsession with being a hero and bigotry leads to his downfall and destruction. He murders Caleb in a fit of rage, and then spend four centuries trying to make up for the sin by eliminating all "evil" witches. Despite becoming a beloved leader of the witches, Belos' obsession to become a hero of humans drives him to betray his loyal followers. By the end of the series, he loses everything and dies unmourned in the Boiling Isles, and forgotten in the Human Realm. The Macbeth allusions show it's somewhat intended, and his original goal to save Caleb was heroic despite his period-appropriate prejudice only to very badly fall. He is, or was, nuanced despite how utterly vile he became. I'd say he's a Deconstructed Character Archetype of it as he seemingly fits the archetype, but twists it by his tragic/few humanizing aspects being twisted/driving him far past the point he loses all the sympathy associated and even the notion of being heroic has decayed to pure self-delusion.
They're tragic figures, but not sympathetic ones, a distinction Tragic Villain is misleading on given the name. Does that also apply to Tragic Hero as well? Thoughts on my proposed fixes for them?
openWhich Page Should Be Linked To?
Celebrity Power Couple had the following example (I'm showing the namespace of the work because it's relevant. I also shortened the example text since the example content itself isn't that relevant):
- ComicBook.Batman Grant Morrison: Billionaire industrialist, philanthropist, and socialite Bruce Wayne...
Gate Star X changed it to:
- ComicBook.Batman: In ComicBook.Batman Grant Morrison, Bruce Wayne, the billionaire industrialist, philanthropist, and socialite....
I was under the impression that if the more specific work page is available, you use that as the main example link. You only use the main page to group together multiple examples from different works in the series or if the specific comic/work doesn't have a page on the site. So the original was fine and the change is unnecessary. But Gate Star X told me they've seen the second version done around the wiki and are just following suit. Is there any clear policy on this someone can point us to?
Edited by amathieu13openReporting an Edit War.
Yesterday, Tropers/This_One_Sara added
an Unintentionally Unsympathetic sub-entry on the YMMV page for Dragon Age: The Veilguard regarding the character Taash in the scene where they come out as Non-Binary to their mother, Shathann.
I removed
the entry, giving an admittedly lengthy edit reason in the process, due to feeling that it was misrepresenting what happened during the scene, claiming that Taash lashed out "immediately", when it reality it didn't happen until towards the end of the conversation, after they had reached their breaking point as a result of:
1) The stress that often comes with coming out to a parent (made evident by Taash's hesitance to come out to Shathann both prior to this scene and right before they say they're Non-Binary)
2) Shathann seemingly not being supportive of them (saying in a stern tone "If this is because I criticized your dress or your manners..." right after Taash comes out to her and explains what being Non-Binary is, and then suggesting to Taash, in that same stern tone, that they might be "aqun-athlok" (for context, in the Qunari language, that's the term for someone who doesn't identify as their birth gender, which would be accurate if it weren't for the fact that, in Qunari culture, people's gender identities are determined by their roles within the Qun, which are designated as being either male or female, so being Non-Binary is a foreign concept to the Qun, meaning that as far as the Qun is concerned, there are only trans men and trans women, so Shathann was essentially suggesting to Taash that they might be a trans man, even though they had already explained to her that they don't identify as a man or a woman) and then telling them "Shokra toh ebra" (a Qunari phrase that translates to "You must struggle with who you are", which is meant to be a phrase of encouragement to find yourself, but Taash doesn't learn that until the end of their questline, which hasn't happened yet, so from Taash's perspective it sounds like Shathann is telling them to just put up with their gender dysphoria, which is not helped by the fact that Shathann is still speaking in a stern tone) and it is only then that Taash finally lashes out).
The entry also tried to use Shathann's cultural upbringing as an excuse for why they couldn't understand the concept of being Non-Binary after it was explained to her in the simplest, most easy to understand way possible, due to it being a foreign concept to her culture, even though she gave Taash that same cultural upbringing and they understand the concept just fine.
I have just seen that Tropers/This_One_Sara has re-added
the entry without discussion, and in doing so, has started an edit war.
openEditing issues
(Apologies if this seems rambly, but I've been trying to figure out how best to word things for more than a week at this point)
Player 8950's edits tend to have poor grammar and can fall into natter territory, but perhaps most pertinently, back around October they were making extensive edits to pages in the FanonPokedex namespace without going through the attendant PEFE thread beforehand for consensus.
I informed them of this via DM (In the midst of spending the better part of an hour to an hour and a half reverting everything), and they were further told within the thread itself, but the edits to the pages they've made since have not only often had the same issues of not going through the thread first before doing significant changes (Which I've also had to revert), and many still have the aforementioned grammatical issues, even the ones that are technically a single sentence feel like they're definitely going against the spirit of the rules if not the absolute letter.
Most recently, in FanonPokedex.Pikablu, I ended up reverting
edits they made which hadn't been approved by the thread, only for them to put some of it back
without thread discussion, so at this point I think it's best to bring it here because otherwise I'll be continuing to play whack-a-mole and it's similar enough that I think just removing it would border on edit war.
openWhere do I have to go to first before I propose an example for a page quote?
I want to include dialogue from The One as a page quote for Kill One, Others Get Stronger.
The man you've been seeing, the "you, " he was an MVA agent. Once on assignment he was forced to defend himself against a form of himself you from another universe. He killed him. In doing so, part of the other's life energy transferred to him. Made him stronger. Made all of you stronger. Each time he kills one of you, the energy divides among the survivors.
- — Funsch explains to Gabe the plot of The One.

So I'm a busy man, which means I don't have much free time to add or make pages. And I want to make a character page, but since I don't have much time for myself to work on it, how do I make a page private to myself so I can work on it when I do have the time and post it when there's much more to the page besides red links?