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openYMMV.Catherine UnfortunateImplications edit war Videogame
Hey, troper metaverse keeps deleting an Unfortunate Implications entry on the YMMV.Catherine page about some fans being unhappy with Unsettling Gender-Reveal jokes (the scene in question involves a transwoman appearing before coming out in an Alternate Timeline so they can make a joke about another character she is attracted to being unaware she is a transwoman or attracted to him, basically), despite 3 sources to said reactions being provided (per the guidelines), with a Strawman Fallacy edit reason that these are "misunderstandings" about a Transgender character no longer wanting to transition, rather than about the actual content of the entry. Entry:
- Unfortunate Implications: In one of the new endings for Full Body, Catherine goes back in time so she can place herself in Vincent's high school and the two end up dating. An unclear number of years later, at Vincent and Catherine's wedding, Erica is then seen pre-transition with Toby, who previously only became friends with the rest of the cast after Erica's transition, in order to make another joke about Erica's attraction to Toby. Outside potentially inadvertently removing Erica's identity and agency, this was mainly seen as Atlus doubling down on problematic Unsettling Gender-Reveal jokes in the story by a number of fans, especially in the trans community in both the West and Japan. It even got to the point where several people refused to buy the game or support Atlus in the future. The English voice actress for Erica, Erin Fitzgerald, explained shortly afterwards that the localization team would try to adjust the ending for the Western release. (Sources: Kotaku
, Daily Dot
, Dualshockers
)
I'm not really sure what to do at this point because the edit reasons for removing don't seem to have anything to do with the actual entry? Honestly, if the entry should go for the sake of Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment, I understand, but feel like their strawman Mis-blamed and Overshadowed by Controversy should go too then.
Edited by ashlayopenOutside opinions on disagreement Videogame
Cutting off a brewing edit war at Fallout 3. I'd previously removed the Idiot Plot entry and a user added it back. Here is the entry:
- Idiot Plot: While Fallout 3 is high on the lists of many people for a myriad of reasons, the main plot generally is not one of them.
- The call to action is your dad leaving to jump start his water purifier in order to give the wasteland a source of water. The problem is that this is a non-issue for virtually everyone else living in the wasteland. Aside from everyone having been able to not die of thirst in the 200 years Dad’s device was inactive, the only people you meet in the entire game who are affected by the lack of water are two homeless people that live outside major settlements. This makes his decision seem brash and shortsighted, especially because it resulted in the deaths of many.
- Imagine if you never meet or fight any dragons in Skyrim and the only way you know they exist is because a single npc asks for health potions because of dragon attacks.
- Dad is accosted by the Enclave, who want the purifier for themselves. He decides that a device with unquestionably altruistic functions should be destroyed just so that bad people couldn’t have it. It’s the equivalent of destroying all blood transfusion research so that the Central Powers wouldn’t be able to use it.
- Granted, Eden wanted to use it to kill everyone, but Dad couldn’t have possibly known that at the time.
- You’re railroaded into helping out the residents of Little Lamplight because there is a huge door in your way and children are pointing guns at you. Your only recourse is to take a sidequest or have a perk that is literally useless anywhere else.
- What makes this an example of the trope is that the quest they send you on involves assaulting a fortified base. Forcing your way into Little Lamplight is a much less daunting task but it seems the only reason you can’t do that is because the writer said so.
- You can convince Eden to kill himself in what appears to be a Call-Back to Fallout 1. However, the first Fallout requires a damning amount of evidence to prove to the Master that everything he did has been to the detriment to humanity. Here, you resort to meaningless platitudes that make the President go “Oh well, may as well kill myself.”
- Prior to the DLC, you have to commit radiation-induced suicide to get the heroic ending. Nevermind that you have a handful of companions immune to radiation, even one who retrieved a Macguffin from insurmountable radiation. The DLC mitigates this but still calls you a coward for being intelligent.
- The call to action is your dad leaving to jump start his water purifier in order to give the wasteland a source of water. The problem is that this is a non-issue for virtually everyone else living in the wasteland. Aside from everyone having been able to not die of thirst in the 200 years Dad’s device was inactive, the only people you meet in the entire game who are affected by the lack of water are two homeless people that live outside major settlements. This makes his decision seem brash and shortsighted, especially because it resulted in the deaths of many.
A lot of these points are nitpicking ("no one needs water but the beggars", "the game pulls But Thou Must! at Little Lamplight") and full of natter (most of the secondary subbullets). The only thing approaching a legitimate complaint is Dad and Eden's decisions, but Dad doesn't destroy the purifier he floods its control room with radiation to keep the Enclave away from it, and the speech check with Eden is very difficult to make and the entire idea of the Speech skill is talking people into agreeing with you, so this is less a case of idiocy on Eden's part and more the developers didn't write good dialogue. And the Heroic Sacrifice ending has been retconned away so that point is moot.
Overall this is just a misuse of Idiot Plot and not applicable.
openCan't link videos to media source Videogame
I realized that the page for Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers didn't have video examples linked to it, but videos for Ret-Gone and Player Personality Quiz had examples from that same game anyway. On closer inspection I noticed that the name of the media source given by the videos on each of the trope pages is not completely the same as the title given by the media page. Is there anyway for me to fix this myself?
Edited by TheGrayShadowopenCyberJudas trope page Videogame
Should there be a separate work page for Cyber Judas instead of grouping the sequel’s works along with Shadow President on the page?
(I don’t really know how else to add to this, I’d make the work page myself but I’m not entirely familiar with Cyber Judas aside from watching Joel’s gameplay of it.)
openI'm not sure where to put this? Videogame
Mother 3 has a Player Punch entry that is way too long for its own good.
- Player Punch: A lot.
- In Chapter 1, in a series built around the protagonist usually having a close relationship with their mother during their adventure, it goes against the series expectations that Hinawa, Lucas's mother, is killed very violently.
- You then play the first chapter as Hinawa's husband, Flint. Upon finding out about her death, he goes into a terrifying Heroic BSoD, lashing out at other people in the village until he has to be knocked unconscious in order to be subdued. You then get the lovely experience of becoming Tazmily Jail's first prisoner.
- Claus, Lucas's twin brother, then goes out into the mountains to try and avenge Hinawa. He fails.
- As it turns out, the animal responsible for killing Hinawa was a Drago, a perfectly harmless creature Lucas used to be friends with. It's been "reconstructed" by a strange group of men wearing pig masks, making it aggressive and mindless.
- Oh, and who's in charge of all these Pigmasks? Why, Porky Minch, naturally.
- In Chapter 2, you play as a thief named Duster. And, let's just say, his father is not very satisfied by his thieving abilities.
- In Chapter 3, you play as a monkey named Salsa. He's getting routinely abused by a member of the Pigmask army named Fassad. He spends the chapter being forced to help them with their evil deeds, since his girlfriend is being held captive for leverage.
- In Chapter 4, three years have gone by. Let's just say, one of the biggest RPG cliches of all time has been... horrifyingly subverted.
- Then, at the end of the chapter, when the DCMC sing their goodbyes to "Lucky". It's for the greater good, but you'll feel really terrible for finally getting your last party member.
- Chapter 6. Lucas chases Hinawa's ghost through a field of sunflowers, which are associated with her. It ends with you essentially making Lucas attempt suicide.
- In Chapter 7, you find out about these Plot Coupons called the Seven Needles. Only Lucas and the commander of the Pigmask army, The Masked Man, are capable of pulling them. If Lucas pulls them, the world will be reborn anew and everything will be good and pure. If the Masked Man pulls them, the world will cease to exist.
- And, in that chapter, you manage to only pull three. The enemy ends up getting the rest of them.
- Then there's Tanetane Island. After washing up on the shore during a wreck, your party is weak, starving, and incapable of healing themselves. Since you lost all your items, you have no choice but to eat some funky-looking mushrooms off the ground. Let's just say, it ends very, very badly.
- Then, when you get back home, the town is almost completely empty. Everybody's gone to the big city, save for a few individuals.
- In Chapter 8, we meet up with a fellow named Leder. He was the bell ringer in Tazmily Village, and he never spoke a word to anybody. Now that Tazmily is gone and he has no other purpose in life, he reveals that pretty much everything you thought you knew about the world is a lie. The human race destroyed this world long, long before you started playing this game, and the tiny island you've spent the game on is the only habitable place left on Earth. There is hope, but now the entire world is resting squarely on your shoulders, and the odds aren't looking very promising.
- Then you meet the Pig King himself, Porky. He essentially gives the entire human species a "Reason You Suck" Speech. And considering what you just found out, it'll strike a few chords.
- Hey, remember that Masked Man guy? The one who's been pulling all the other needles and striking you down at any given opportunity, hellbent on bringing the world to an end? It's Claus. Lucas's brother.
- You can't defeat Porky. During the fight, he reveals that his constant abuse of time travel has rendered him immortal. At the end of the fight, he locks himself in a machine called the Absolutely Safe Capsule. However, it's revealed that, once he's in there, he can never get out. Ever.
- The final battle in the game is against the Masked Man. It may just be the most heartbreaking "I Know You're in There Somewhere" Fight ever executed. With your party knocked unconscious, leaving you alone, you cannot fight him. A battle implies a conflict on both sides, but Lucas can't bring himself to hurt his brother. All you can do is guard against his attacks, while a terrifying boss theme that rivals Giygas's in intensity assaults your ears. Forcing you to just try and survive blasts from your own iconic attack, slowly watch as your brother gets weaker until he can't even damage you anymore. And it ends with Claus using your always-dependable Franklin Badge that protects you to deliberately blast lightning so it will deflect back at him, with every intention of committing child suicide. All you can do is hear him apologize for his mistakes as he says goodbye... so he... he can be with his mother...
- The ending. There are no words to say, just the ending.
It's just listing the entire game. I'm not doubting that the game pulls punches on the player, but I think we should probably just have highlights of this item, rather every single time the game has a depressing moment.
Edited by PlasmaPoweropenCharacter Page for VideoGame/FireEmblemHeroes Videogame
The character page for Fire Emblem Heroes has mostly characters from the game itself but a few characters from the games before it. My question is, and I asked this in the Discussion tab a few months ago but nobody responded, would it be smarter to just make character pages for the different playable characters based on their home game? We do that to an extent for games like Heroes of the Storm and Fate/Grand Order where they have characters from existing works given a character page, but not Fire Emblem Heroes.
openNot Really Memes? Videogame
Reposting my question here because I have the Discussion page isn't trafficked all that frequently enough to get a prompt response.
Marikusu recently made a bunch of additions
to Fire Emblem: Three Houses that I feel violate the nature of what constitutes a meme, because they seem to be expressly partisan polemics that just happen to be delivered in a cheeky/sarcastic way, rather than the kind innately self-perpetuating humor that usually constitutes a meme. Plus there isn't any meaning to them beyond the face value statements themselves. Also, memes are generally supposed to have broad appeal because of their self-perpetuating nature, hence being about a matter this controversial already limits their ability to appeal to a wide audience.
In the past we've already had to carry out major repair on the YMMV entry for Edelgard under Base-Breaking Character because it was getting too full of these polemics both for and against her, so needless to say anything regarding the grayness surrounding her morality is enough of a delicate matter that the additions are in violation of Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement. Not to mention there was a fair amount of discussion in the game thread that found the fascist label to be inaccurate (the Memes entry admits as much, but goes on to add it anyway with a handwave) and a case of Ron the Death Eater, as while she's certainly a lot of things that aren't exactly good, fascist expressly is not one of them.
Edit: I see that Marikusu nuked
a YMMV entry that explicitly explains how Fascist Edelgard came to become a Discredited Meme to the point a voice actor got involved; whether or not it still sees use in some remaining circles, I do think that treating it as a contemporary meme of worth after that incident definitely comes off as in bad taste, especially since as someone with friends who are fans of all three of the various house lords, the ones who express a liking for Edelgard are the ones who receive the brunt of harassment and personal attacks due to the way modern fandoms behave.
openUh... Two things Videogame
On the Pyramid Head section on Silent Hill
, The Anti-Villain section has a point of "He's still plenty hostile towards him, though, and if one is to follow the interpretation of him found here, he's certainly malicious as well." This reads like 'this theory is canon', which is generally looked down upon, and I still want to remove the intrerpretation bit since it feel like it doesn't belong. Should I remove? I'm not sure that he's totally malicious, since he's a manifestation of James' guilt and sense for justice and guides him along throughout the game, this is even furthered at how you can just ignore PH on his boss fights for a few minutes then he leaves or kill himself.
On the Humans are White section on Frost Punk
: "Not only is every human in the game white, but almost all of them are British. The only exceptions are the handful of Americans who survived the fall of Tesla City and the Norwegian Fridtjof Nansen. Perhaps justified because all but one of the Generators was built by the British Empire, which in real life was quite racist and willing to sacrifice its non-white subjects when expedient. " The bolded section isn't about the game, like it's trying to bring up sensitive subjects just because. Should I remove?
openReadding of a non-character trope Videogame
I took down Ambiguous Situation entries in Characters.Kingdom Hearts Supporting Originals (and a few other non-character trope entries), but Sir Adamus readded one and without leaving an edit reason (under the Subject X folder, to be exact)
.
Just thought I'd bring it up here as I didn't want to risk an Edit War even if there's no issue with taking down non-character tropes from character pages itself.
openWe've Got a Scrappy Problem Videogame
About a month ago, I deleted all the entries for The Scrappy on Criminal Case because they were clearly meant to be hated and hated badly. Here it is for reference:
- The Scrappy:
- In the 2014 Criminal Case Wiki Awards
, Miriam Young won the game's "Most Annoying Character" title (by a very huge margin) due to her cold and domineering personality, and her cruel treatment towards Amy (who, by contrast, was voted as the fan favorite). Not only that, several fans have gone as far as saying that she should be in jail instead of Duncan even though he's the Night Walker.
- Albert Tesla also qualifies, for abandoning his son, thinking himself to be Pacific Bay's God, nearly destroying it and killing fan-favorite Frank Knight when he attempts to stop him. He's even voted the game's "Most Annoying Character" of 2015.
- Sarah Bennet was voted as the "Most Annoying Character" on the 2016 Criminal Case Wiki Awards
. Rightfully so since she nearly killed Jack, killed Dupont and Natasha (regardless of her affiliation with SOMBRA, she's still Marina's mom), and nearly caused World War III.
- Horatio Rochester was voted as the "Most Annoying Character" on the 2017 Criminal Case Wiki Awards, owing to his attempt to fully control Concordia as a city-state and abolish press freedom. Moreover, unlike Justin Lawson, who was ultimately a Well-Intentioned Extremist who Jumped Off The Slippery Slope, Horatio has no redeeming qualities and is motivated by selfish and petty reasons.
- In the 2014 Criminal Case Wiki Awards
I discovered only today that three days later, user pizzasoda66 added them all back. Their reasons were, and I quote, "The description of this trope is "The fans hate this character for some reason.". Just because they're supposed to be disliked doesn't mean they're not scrappies. Why do you think they were voted as the most annoying character?"
Whether or not a character who's meant to be hated can qualify as a Scrappy anyway is a mug I don't wanna chug right now, but their description of The Scrappy as a trope is way off. It's the given explanation on the laconic page, which feels like an artifact of the past, and should be changed to add the qualifier "against the intentions of the creator". Because that being the case, again, none of these assholes are unintentionally hated.
I would go back and say this, but I'd rather not get hit with an Edit War accusation and edit banned for it. What do you guys think?
openEdit War in YMMV/Super Smash Bros Ultimate Videogame
A while back I noticed this from YMMV.Super Smash Bros Ultimate:
- This would later be downplayed in Castlevania: Grimoire of Souls where Simon initially displays this attitude towards Alucard, commenting on the dark powers from within him are on-par with Dracula's, only for Alucard to remind Simon that he once fought alongside Trevor Belmont, and comments on both Maria, Shanoa, and Charlotte's impressive abilities in magic.
This was a lone third level bullet "reply" to another example under Memetic Psychopath, which was what first stood out as incorrect Example Indentation. Then looking at the text itself it was all about another game's characterization of Simon and nothing to with Simon in Smash Bros. Ultimate. So I removed
it citing both reasons in the Edit Reason.
Tailikku then put it back
showing misunderstanding of both reasons in their Edit Reason.
I PMed them telling them the reasons the entry is incorrect, but they did not respond. So I decided to bring it up here, and checking the Page History again I noticed Tailikku was the one that added the entry
in the first place, so they're also Edit Warring.
openHelp me find tropes for a Psychopath! Videogame
So there is a character who is really weird, even comical if he wasn't so dangerous. He is not The Sociopath, although he appears to be trying.
The description describes him as follows:
"Alonso Graves is a man disturbed. A former soldier of the Empire, war transformed his soul forever. The disdain and misanthropy within him can only momentarily be silenced by the blood of his former masters. Believing himself now to be a god, he is intent on "freeing" all he can from the shackles of human existence."
In game, Alsonso is the weakest of the "Expert" AI in his game, Anno 1800. He is utterly unpredictable and may declare war if he feels like it, but he is not someone with a Chronic Backstabbing Disorder.
This makes it hard to find proper tropes for him.
Edited by Lyefyre
The Quiet One (he/him)
openMoving a page to Useful Notes Videogame
A while back (maybe around two or so years ago), in the TLP crash rescue thread, I brought up VideoGame.Game Genie since it lacks trope examples. I said I thought it should be moved to UsefulNotes.Game Genie, since it's a way to tinker with games' code, rather than being a game itself. Only one person responded; Fighteer said he agreed with that idea, but that post wasn't marked as a mod statement (i.e., the post wasn't highlighted in red/pink), so I wasn't sure if I had permission.
Would moving the page to Useful Notes require a TRS thread, or is posting this on ATT enough? VideoGame.Mii was moved to UsefulNotes.Mii earlier this year without TRS, but I don't know if the consensus was gathered on ATT or the forums, so I wasn't sure.
Edit: It looks like VideoGame.Game Shark is in the same boat as VideoGame.Game Genie.
Edited by GastonRabbitopenMisuses of the POV Cam trope Videogame
So, one thing I have noticed while cleaning up the Video Game pages is that P.O.V. Cam trope is sometimes just stuck onto any game that's played from a first-person perspective. Here's the latest example: Your Toy.
I mean, that's textbook Trope Decay, right? Given its relative prominence (this is like the fifth time I see this, and I am sure doing a wick search will reveal a few more), should we outright amend the trope page itself to clarify that's 'not what it's meant to be about?
openCustom Title misuse Videogame
Okay, I'm perplexed... the page for the fangame VideoGame.Fredbear And Friends has a custom title that turns it to "Fazbear and Friends". This is a misuse of the system; the work page itself seems to confirm the title is Fazbear and Friends, so I don't know why it was put in a different Wiki Word in the first place.
Before moving it, though, I noticed the page has lots of wicks, and there's also a WebAnimation.Fazbear And Friends page already existing.
Anybody has an idea how this situation came to be?
openUndertale cleanup page Videogame
I want to discuss something that's about a general cleanup page for potentially every Undertale page. Specifically, I want to remove lines in articles where the tropers themselves refer the players who do the Genocide route a Complete Monster, or something similar to that, without it being an example of when the game itself is trying to make the player feel like a Complete Monster.
openUnreliable WhatCouldHaveBeen Videogame
Trivia.Fallout New Vegas has two What Could Have Been entries that I can't find any sources supporting. While early demos do show the Strip as all one zone, I can't find anything saying this was the case for Freeside, though there are some Dummied Out Freeside NPCs like beggars and pickpockets.
- The Mysterious Stranger would have teleported in and instantly killed you if you tried to target the Lonesome Drifter in VATS.
- The New Vegas Strip and Freeside used to be whole zones by themselves. Early showcases of the game showed of the whole Strip, and it is also rendered that way in the intro cinematic. Freeside itself was a single massive zone, including a number of no-name generic NPCs and the Mormon Fort having open gates. Both instances were "sectioned off" due to the Xbox 360 and Play Station 3 not having the necessary processing power to render all the NPCs running around the Strip and Freeside without some serious slowdown or even game crashes. The Strip just had two gaudy scrap metal gates separating it into three zones. Freeside, however, got hit harder: fences/gates made from junked buses, the Mormon Fort was made its own zone, and NPCs were cut to reduce the memory problems. Appropriately, there are a pair of mods that convert the Strip and Freeside to their early open area builds.
openEtiquette of Taking Charge in a Small Article Videogame
Hello,
I've been a trafficker on the site for a bit before finding small ways I could add to articles, whether it be fixing small mistakes I can find, or adding a few new tropes to not very well-known series.
The page for the video game Walking On A Star Unknown is sparse and had a bit of weird grammar (I did a little bit of editing myself for some wording, as well as adding a few tropes, an image, and a quote- both very general ones from the translator's site). I am interested in taking more liberty and adding a character page, as well as moving tropes that fit characters from the main page to simplify and improve the article.
Since it is quite a small, not yet too-popular game, I assume it would be alright for me to take charge with this? I am not too sure on the etiquette of making large improvements without prior consulting to a larger audience myself, and if I have already stepped over the line by adding a photo and quote, I admit fault (and am more than willing to change it myself if there are any issues.)
In addition, is it preferred that I edit in chunks, or in one or two larger edits? My flow is currently to add bits and pieces at a time, though I could always change this to be one large edit if it is more convenient.
Apologies that this is so long and in depth, I didn't think more background info would hinder anything, I hope. Thank you! Papurika

A big majority of the YMMV subpages for Minecraft such as Awesome, Funny, and Heartwarming, are mainly just stories about things other players did and put online and have nothing to actually do with the game itself. Is that allowed?