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openAss Pull on Jojo Part 6 ymmv Anime
There has been one user argumenting the use of this on the ymmv page of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Stone Ocean, where they provided arguments for how the plot points that were put on asspull made sense, but later reverted them back because of ymmv.
I find myself confused, cause the points that the user rises sound compelling enough to warrant a removal from them, but idk if most users are willing to agree.
open Edit War on Love of Kill Anime
I swore to myself I was going to avoid this page from now on but I need to report myself and another troper for edit-warring. Back in January I added the following example to Love of Kill (and admittedly with an unnecessarily rude edit reason because I was furious at having wasted my lunch break watching it, thinking it would be similar to SPY×FAMILY).
- Sexual Extortion: Song (AN: male lead) spends the first episode (or first few manga chapters) extorting a "date" from Chateau (AN: female lead) in exchange for information she needs for her day job and only manages to not actually rape her because she finally musters the nerve to actually leave the hotel room he takes her to at the end of it. He still manages to force a hug on her before she gets on the train to go home.
This example was first modified due to a factual error in the original version (perfectly okay), and then deleted outright by Ominae (not okay). I re-added it, and then immediately realized I was edit-warring and posted on the discussion tab
. I fully admit I blew it.
Without checking the discussion tab or taking note of the legal definition of sexual harassment, Ominae removed the example again.
I freely admit that I was unnecessarily rude and have an irrational hatred for this series (I consider it to be the best fantasy for incels since Redo Of Healer), but everything in the example is factually correct.
open Bishonen Line Anime
The term Bishonen is used in the trope Bishonen Line but when I tried to search for the word Bishonen's definition itself, there was only the, uh, x-rated definition to be found. Is it the same word repurposed, or am I searching incorrectly?
openEdit warring in YMMV Dragon Ball Super Anime
I removed a bunch of entries from the YMMV page of the Granolah's arc from Dragon Ball Super, since they were violations of policy (adding a Broken Base entry just days after the arc had ended, for example, alongside a It Was His Sled entry, and an Audience-Alienating Ending entry when the entire arc is days old). I also removed some entries that read as too much complaining instead of actually showing an audience reaction, particularly concerning Narm, Ass Pull, Franchise Original Sin and Fan-Disliked Explanation.
troper AMassiveOvereditor
(Which originally added most of these entries) added a bunch of entries back, with the exception of the entries that negated policy. What should be done in this case? I feel that rather than reflecting the views of the audience itself, the page just merely centers on the views of this specific troper. Not to say that there isn't examples of Narm and Ass Pull (I left some of those and after some days I thought that maybe I should have added back the Black Frieza entry in Ass Pull), but I feel that the page as a whole is too negative, which is a common problem in the Dragon Ball Super manga pages.
openCan I give the BECK manga its own set of pages? Anime
I'm talking about Beck. It's currently sharing sub-pages with the musician Beck, as well as an unrelated movie. Being a diehard fan of this series, I'd like to make the usual suite of pages for the manga/anime (Character page, Funny, Heartwarming, YMMV etc.), to avoid sharing with the musician and movie. The BECK manga has an official alternate title, "BECK - Mongolian Chop Squad" or just "BECK - MCS", and I was thinking if I could just go for it. Would I be allowed to do this myself? Thank you in advance!
Edited by pottskiopenFaux Action Girls in Yu-Gi-Oh! Anime
Jack Pot 21 has been continuously removing the Faux Action Girl entries in the different Yu-Gi-Oh! pages throughout the years, even after multiple users have been re-editing, providing justifications and reworking entries so that they show what the trope entails.
- Yu-Gi-Oh!: Mai Kujaku/Valentine is setup as a powerful duelist that manages to defeat Rex Raptor (the Japanese Championship runner-up) off-screen. However, she never manages to back-up said reputation, losing all of her major on-screen duels with the exception of one against Jean-Claude Magnum (a one-off mook) and one against Joey (who was thoroughly exhausted by his duel with Valon in the same episode) in the Doma arc.
- Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's: Akiza is an interesting example of this. She has a fearsome reputation as the "Black Rose Witch", a ferocious and powerful psychic duelist that enjoys inflicting pain on others. This is eventually revealed to be a facade created by Akiza as a response to being treated as a monster. As such, she goes from easily stomping her opponents and nearly defeating Yusei in the Fortune Cup, to losing in less than two turns to Andore in the WRGP. She also loses her psychic powers without much of a reason.
- Yu-Gi-Oh! ZEXAL: Rio Kamishiro is presented as The Ace that is both academically and sports-gifted, with many characters expressing awe at how competent and scary she is. However, she never quite manages to leave the shadow of her brother Shark, mostly serving as a source for his character drama and getting hospitalized, kidnapped, possessed, thrown-off a cliff, hospitalized (again) and finally killed by characters that just wanted to hurt and/or attract Shark's attention, with Rio never able to fight back once.
- Yu-Gi-Oh! VRAINS:
- Blue Angel/Aoi Zaizen is one of the most prominent Charisma Duelists in Link VRAINS, presented with a bubbly and energetic idol persona, but willing to prove herself as a duelist to her brother and Yusaku, and also getting multiple avatar makeovers related to her development, as if setting up a big character moment. Unfortunately, she always loses her duels against plot-prominent villains (and the protagonists), with her loss to Specter being presented as particularly humiliating. This is possibly lampshaded by the characters in the final episode, as Kusanagi thanks Aoi and the others for saving his brother and Link VRAINS, with Aoi admitting that she actually didn't do anything.
- Emma Besho/Ghost Girl is presented as a skillful hacker and bounty hunter hired by Akira Zaizen to gather information about Playmaker. She's actually quite competent at collecting data, spying on others and making her way through Link Vrains; it's the "bounty hunter" part of her description that she always fails at, with her only win in the entirety of VRAINS being against Brave Max. This is particularly ironic, given that her Altergeist deck was one of the most competitive decks ever featured in the anime.
Jack Pot 21 has been removing any entries regarding the franchise since some years ago with many shifting justifications. First it was that the entries centered around winrates; then when the entries were adjusted to not focus on winrates, he added the justification that "examples for this entry can be very subjective", but I can't help but feel that this is agenda-driven edition, and that he feels that the entries are attacks on the characters themselves rather than assessments of how the (male) staff has issues writing women, which is something that the YGO fanbase has acknowledged over and over.
When his original argument for the removal of the entries was
"Having what’s personally deem as an “unimpressive victory” or because they don’t have enough duels doesn’t mean a female character a Faux Action Girl. Aki for example has a good win/loss ratio, yet she’s labeled as one simply for being nicer in the second season, ignoring the fact she only had one loss and a few Action Girl moments outside of duels."
Which seems to me a very suspect justification shift, as he went from claiming that "not having enough duels doesn't mean a female character is a Faux Action Girl" to saying that "Rio's examples don't even include anything duel-related" which are two contradicting statements.
Also, I quote one of the opening statements in the Faux Action Girl definition
"She has a well-grounded reputation as a strong fighter in her field but always fails miserably in the line of battle. Her talents and skills are well-known to fellow characters but for some strange reason, they're never seen by the viewers outside of perhaps A Day in the Limelight episode"
YGO is a shonen battle anime, in which the fights are card-game duels. Most of these examples include characters that have strong reputations in dueling, but they always fail miserably. They even get the "Talents and skills are well known to fellow characters but they're never seen outside of perhaps a Day in the Limelight episode", which is particularly glaring with Rio Kamishiro, who only got a character focus episode before going back to serving as a source of character drama for Shark.
Addendum: It seems like Jack Pot 21 has already had multiple issues through the wiki by attempting to tweak Yu-Gi-Oh pages to show what only he thinks are valid examples despite evidence to the contrary, which I believe is something that should be taken into account here.
Edited by Edgar81539openIs Gundam IBO too dark and gritty? Anime
Ok, I gotta ask: does Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans truly qualify for Too Bleak, Stopped Caring? TBSC is normally defined as either "both sides are either equally unlikeable (pedophiliac serial killer vs genocidal slave trader" or "the heroes' efforts ultimately amount to nothing and the universe still sucks." A story only averts the trope when it features clearly defined heroes and villains and the ending delivers a positive outcome.
TBSC was orignally listed
in the show's YMMV page by its original name, "Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy", under the following argument: "By far the worst offender in the entire Gundam franchise, which was already fairly dark to begin with. Detractors point out that it's hard to sympathize with the protagonists, especially Mikazuki, as their actions push them further off the slipper slope. This isn't helped in season 2 where you're required to be ruthless in this society to get ahead. In the final episodes, major characters get killed left and right to the point it stops being dramatic and starts becoming tedious. Not helping matters is that people are comparing it to Zeta and the director's insistence that the entire show is basically a mafia story, NOT a war story.". It was deleted
because the trope required proof of audience apathy.
The YMMV page previously included:
- Eight Deadly Words: Detractors of the series frequently point this out as a problem. With a bleak setting, extremely morally shady characters (especially the main character), even worse villains, and an underdeveloped Big Bad who not only manages to succeed but ends on a high note, it's pretty easy to stop caring about what happens to the characters., but it was deleted
because Eight Deadly Words became a DefinitionOnlyPage.
- Ending Aversion: The outcome of the final episode is extremely divisive, with a pretty vocal segment of the fandom decrying it for feeling that Tekkadan didn't get the payoff they deserved while Rustal, Julietta, Nobliss, and Gjallarhorn in general successfully destroyed Tekkadan and ended on a high note, with only Iok and Nobliss receiving any form of comeuppance that ultimately rings hollow because of the other villains still winning- the way they won also gets accused of being a complete Shoot the Shaggy Dog for the sake of a Gray-and-Grey Morality message. Many who want a sequel for the series tend to request for Rustal and Julieta to get killed and for Gjallarhorn to be destroyed, assuming they don't write a Fix Fic to fulfill the same purpose by having Tekkadan win the Final Battle. The trope was deleted because, supposedly, "the trope is for people avoiding a work because they hear the ending is disappointing, not about people not liking the ending."
It still includes Esoteric Happy Ending with: "While the series portrays the finale as a bittersweet but overall happy ending with Rustal reforming Gjallarhorn and recognizing Martian independence, while Iok and Nobliss Gordon are killed, detractors of the series finale point out that as a member of the previous Gjallarhorn regime, Rustal is at best complicit in or at worst actively responsible for much of the corruption that plagued the organization. Onscreen, he doesn't bat an eye at starting proxy wars, formenting violent rebellions as false flags, and making use of outlawed weapons to achieve his ends. Even with the Seven Stars disbanded, he's managed to hold on to his power by making himself the best possible candidate to be elected to lead Gjallarhorn, and both he and Julietta were willing to side with Nobliss Gordon, of all people. As a result, the detractors see him as carrying on old Gjallarhorn's corrupt practices while propping up a public facade of being a reformer."
The show's anime page includes tropes like:
- The Bad Guy Wins: Although Gjallarhorn is heavily reformed by the end of the series, there is little doubt that throughout the series they are the villains, and were fighting to remain the authority in the world. Tekkaden was simply trying to find a place to belong in the world, which put them in direct opposition to Gjallarhorn by necessity rather than any actual enmity at first. It's made clear that there are still elements of resentment on both sides by the series end though, particularly in light of the look of anger and distrust that Eugene sends Julietta's way. This makes sense when you remember Julietta, a devoted, borderline fanatical follower of Rustal Elion, is the one who murdered Mikazuki on the battlefield. Julietta doesn't miss it, or its implications, either.
- Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism: Very cynical. For starters, the protagonist is a Sociopathic Hero who kills without remorse. The main characters are a group of Child Soldiers who see nothing wrong with their profession, fighting an all-powerful army that oppresses the masses through bureaucracy and military intervention. Both sides kill each other in the most brutal and painful ways, with no hope for peace or reconcilation. The ending implies things will be much better, but by that point, so much blood has been shed.
So, what do you think?
BTW, I also asked this question in Is this an example?
to get a proper consensus.
openKaguya-sama Love Is War Franchise Original Sin. Just A Question? Anime
I like to know the reason why are the "fans" are so upset about something like this?
Franchise Original Sin: Kaguya and Shirogane having sex, played entirely for laughs was the last straw for many fans who were unhappy with the humor of the series gradually getting lewder, that the author had gone back on his word of the series not needing Fanservice to instead chase the lowest common denominator. Actually, the early series was hardly 100% clean and wholesome—for instance, a fan favorite gag from the first few chapters revolves around Kaguya struggling not to laugh whenever she hears a word she mistakes to mean "penis"—but in those early jokes the sexual content were framing devices for the actual jokes, based more on character personality: in that case, the actual punchline was seeing the normally stoic Kaguya degenerating into giggling fits about something that really shouldn't be so funny to anyone above elementary school-age. Later jokes dismiss with that and just have the sex itself be the joke—an early foreshadowing to the Kaguya/Shirogane joke that pissed the fanbase off can be found in the Running Gag concerning Tsubasa and Nagisa's relationshipnote specifically, that they're always barely able to avoid being caught having sex in public.
If anything, be feeling honest, there's absolutely nothing wrong about them having sex even if its played for humor. Please give me a proper explanation?
Edited by Droid098openNaruto Unintentionally Unsympathetic Anime
Copying this from the Unintentionally Unsympathetic cleanup thread to give more people a chance to look at this.
- I would like to bring up the following entries from the Anime & Manga subpage of Unintentionally Unsympathetic to see which of these examples are valid or not. I'm not exactly familiar with the material so anyone who knows about the entries can help, thanks.
- Naruto:
- Sasuke Uchiha rapidly becomes this as the series progresses, at first his Freudian Excuse is very strong i.e. his brother Itachi murdered his parents and his entire clan and he naturally wants Revenge. However that excuse for all Sasuke’s misdeeds stretches thin when he antagonises his allies and dismisses the tragedies of those who have also lost their loved ones compared to his own trauma, Kakashi in particular highlights how selfish Sasuke is as he reveals to him that his loved ones (Obito and Rin) are already dead when Sasuke threatens them. After Sasuke's Face–Heel Turn it becomes even harder to sympathise with him as he betrays the village, actively tries to murder his friends, attacks the Kages and generally acts like a terrorist. It comes to the point where the whole cast (except for Naruto, Sakura and Ino) being prepared to bring Sasuke to justice is entirely justified and Naruto’s determination to redeem Sasuke is almost nonsensical. Also Sasuke being as Easily Forgiven in the Distant Finale conflicts matters more as the worst punishment he gets is being “somewhat exiled” from Konoha which is barely a slap on the wrist in the weight of his crimes. If Kakashi calls him out on his actions, isn't that intentional? If it is, cut.
- The backstory of the legendary "Salamander" Hanzo, the ninja against whom the Sannin won their titles by surviving a battle with him sets Hanzo up as a Well-Intentioned Extremist who lost sight of his goals but is honored in defeat by his rival as a man who strove for peace. By starting a lot of wars and turning his homeland into an unlivable hellhole that produced the most psychologically broken, defeated human beings in the series, just because he was arrogant enough to think his strength could unite the world. Most fans still consider Hanzo an utterly unsympathetic character whose violent death at Pain's hands was richly deserved, as his claim of good intentions didn't make him any less of a paranoid warmongering dictator. How is he supposed to be sympathetic?
- Sakura Haruno's angst over her Single-Target Sexuality - the aforementioned Sasuke - really makes her unsympathetic in many viewer’s eyes. Kishimoto claimed in interviews he tried to make her feelings for Sasuke as “realistic” as possible but that falls flat as in the manga she hasn’t even had a proper conversation with him, and when she did talk to him he just called her annoying (even after she told him she loved him and was willingly to ditch her peaceful life just to be with him) and knocked her out. After the Time Skip she mellows out... until Sasuke comes back into the story and she Took a Level in Dumbass trying to take Sasuke down herself and of course fails, requiring Kakashi and Naruto to save her ass from the boy she loves. The Final Battle and Distant Finale makes it worse as Sakura easily forgives Sasuke for trying to kill her multiple times, and she settles down and marries him having learned no lesson whatsoever. Also Kishimoto’s insistence that Sakura would be a “terrible woman” if she moved on from Sasuke didn’t help matters. Unsure on this one, if it is a valid example, it could use a rewrite to cut on the complaining.
- Tobi AKA Obito Uchiha. He's supposed to be a world-weary counterpart to the protagonist who has given up hope on any chance of world peace, preferring to put everyone in a Lotus-Eater Machine where they can escape all the problems of reality. Instead, many saw him as a whiny Manchild who can't get over Rin's death. Seems valid, though maybe revise the second sentence
- The way Utakata's master Harusame tries to extract the Tailed Beast from his disciple in an anime-only Filler is supposed to be seen as good intentions to the point that upon realizing this, Utakata eventually rebuilt the pedestal with him after accidentally killing him. The problem is, extracting the Bijuu from a Jinchuuriki will also directly kill the host, and with no indication of Utakata having trouble with his Bijuu, nor even knowing why his master does it in the first place against his will, it comes off as Harusame crossing the Moral Event Horizon with Utakata having every right to defy his master and killing him sounds more like a Kick The Son Of A Bitch than what is supposed to be. Maybe?
- Madara Uchiha, the Big Bad of the story. He’s apparently meant to be seen as someone who was forced to grow up in a ninja world full of war, and is just trying to create a utopia so his dreams of peace can become reality. This is all well and good, if you forget that the story shows that he and his former friend, Hashirama, managed to accomplish peace with the creation of the Hidden Leaf Village. Hell, Hashirama even tries to make him leader of that new village, but Madara refuses. It’s even harder for viewers to see him as someone who wants peace at any cost due to his obvious glee before every battle. Add that to fact that a part of his Start of Darkness is caused by him wanting to remake the world in his image, even screwing over his best friend to do so, and this makes him come across not as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but more of a hypocritical Jerkass. Unsure on this one
- Boruto Uzumaki, Naruto and Hinata's son. It's hard to sympathize with the boy who only wanted his father to come home when he is as bad (if not worse) than Naruto during his childhood. Unlike Naruto, Boruto doesn't have a crappy childhood but takes it all for granted and does the same antics his father used to do, all so his father can pay more attention to him. He keeps calling his father a bad parent, going as far as to wish he was dead and is unable to understand other people's feelings (such as complaining that his father is never around in front of Sarada, whose father was never with her for her whole life). And when Naruto finally spends some time with him, he ignores him and brushes away his affections. Maybe?
open 12-Episode Anime: still tropeworthy? Anime
I’ve been concerned about 12-Episode Anime for a while now. There are two major issues that caught my attention.
First, I’m wondering whether it’s still tropeworthy in the first place. I suspect this is a very old page, especially since the description mentions the Spring and Fall anime seasons being much more important than Summer and Winter, which was once true but hasn’t really been the case for ~15 years now. There was a time when most new TV anime that weren’t open-ended serials had a standard length of 24-26 episodes, and 12 episode anime in that era were something of a novelty. But things have changed especially over the last decade or so, to the point where almost all new TV anime are being made 12 episodes at a time now, even the ones that are renewed for multiple seasons. So a 12-episode anime in the 2020s is effectively PSOC, nothing notable at all because it’s evolved into the industry standard. If anyone cared enough to add every new 12 episode series that premiered every season we’d be adding over 100 new anime to the page every year.
Second, even if everyone decides the concept itself is still a valid trope, the vast majority of the examples on the page are ZCE, and most of the examples that do have a description are in the ”Given More Seasons” and “Unusual Cases” folders, which are essentially the aversions.
openPronoun inconsistency Anime
Kyubey's section
in the Puella Magi Madoka Magica character page has a few inconcsistencies with the pronouns used for him. Most sections use he/him, while some use they/them or it/its.
There's also the following example:
- Heel–Face Turn: This is very unusually subverted for many reasons. The first one is that following Madoka's wish and the rewriting of reality, he/they no longer needs to be a manipulative mastermind. Secondly he/they doesn't change in the slightest, he/they just doesn't have the motivation in this world. Thirdly he ultimately chooses to re-rewrite reality anyway out of greed in the movie and goes back to their old scheming ways.
And this:
- Your Approval Fills Me with Shame: Gives one on occasion, as far as he/she/it can actually express approval. The one he's speaking with definitely feels shame as a result.
In the anime, Kyubey refers to himself with "boku", and English supplementary material refers to Kyubey with he/him pronouns.
What do we do?
Edited by YuriHaru567openEdit War on VisualNovel.YosugaNoSora Anime
Earlier Dezz Marie 95 added a What An Idiot example to the page. My first instinct was to remove it because What An Idiot is Flame Bait, but I stopped myself because the example seemed VERY familiar. Checking the page history I saw that Dezz Marie 95 had already added the exact same example three weeks ago
(with a small follow-up edit to add extra formatting), but the previous time it was under Too Dumb to Live. I was the one that removed it at the time, with my reason being that Too Dumb to Live is a death trope and so the example did not fit.
Since it is the exact same example, even if the trope name is different, I'd like permission to remove it again, just to be on the safe side and not run afoul of the Edit War rules.
openValues Dissonance entry Anime
The YMMV page for Monster has a Values Dissonance entry saying, "Asking women to smile has become very frowned upon since the series was made." The troper who added this is now suspended, and it doesn't elaborate at all. I've seen the whole series, but I can't remember what specific moment this is referencing, and the comment itself doesn't make sense without more of an explanation.
Edited by Javertshark13openEvilIsCool.DemonSlayer Anime
I noticed in YMMV.Demon Slayer Kimetsu No Yaiba that the villains Doma and Muzan are listed under the trope Evil Is Cool. While you might be able to argue that Doma falls into this trope (I haven't read the manga), the reasons listed line up better with Love to Hate, which he's already listed as.
Muzan himself is another matter. Not only are his actions gratuitous and very excessive (including the way he acts towards his henchmen), he's also considered to be an Anti-Climax Boss due to the fight against him being thought of as less interesting than his subordinates due to him being Unskilled, but Strong.
Edited by 227someguyopen Sevens: Jackpot21 deletes all dissenting Opinions: Anti-Climax Boss edition Anime
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Tropers/Jackpot21
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/YuGiOhSevens
User Jackpot 21 has this thing where they really dislike any opinion on Sevens they disagree with, even if it is a YMMV trope and thus is about opinions versus facts. Recently they went after my YMMV opinion on one of the final bosses of a Sevens Arc.
Here be what they removed.
...
- Anti-Climax Boss: Yuga's second duel with Asana, and the climax of her arc, is considered the weakest duel of all the arc climax duels in the series. Reasons for this stem for the aborted clash of the Maximum Monsters (which makes sense in the plot but comes as the expense of the duel), a sense of repetition of plays from the previous arc climax duel with Neiru (Yuga making a similar 'Trick Guard-Stray Familiar move', the second and third turns leading to a mutual Maximum clash, the use of Magical Switch to summon Seven Roads Magician to take an attack for a weaker monster, etc), and the duel's format overall being more akin to a regular Yuga duel than a climactic one (Yuga notably wins not using Seven Roads Magician, a combo with Seven Roads Magician, or his Maximum monster, but a new level 7 monster (Steeltek Diety Mirror Innovator) in a manner that is more akin to how a duel with a minor character would go and not a climactic clash with a final opponent whose duels tend to more closely involve Yuga's signature cards. Asana herself remains a popular character, but her final duel is considered weak by many.
...
Now let's break down why this is wrong. To list a few of them off the top of my head.
1: Anti-Climax Boss is a trope that is usable outside of video games. In fact all Yu Gi Oh Series have used this trope in their YMMV (For both cards and opponents). 2: This was an opinion I did see around and more than just myself. 3: Anti-Climax boss entries list out why the boss was seen that way, and I did list out several reasons including repetition and how it was concluded.
Also of course 'Your Mileage May Vary'
Minor tweaks are perfectly fine: perhaps changing words from 'is considered the weakest duel of all the arc climax duels' to 'many consider it the weakest duel in all the arc climax duels'. But if he isn't going to even give a reason for his removal like the Pokemon Journeys entry in this system at the same time...well either there is something wrong with it that I don't know about or it is good to go back in a manner that can avoid an edit war.
Edited by KrspaceTopenQuotations edging into plagiarism? Anime
While browsing through fanfic pages, Fanfic.Isnt It Beautiful and Fanfic.We Werent Born To Follow struck me with some weird choices. Several examples on them appear to have flat out chunks of the fic itself inserted as context. Not quotes from the characters, but narration. For one example, but there's more.
- The boy is a whirlwind, swinging his tonfa with ease and comfort and using them in probably unconventional ways. He hits with them, sure, and blocks, and parries. And then reverses his grip, uses the short handle to hook under the armpit or around a knee to trip them over. And then turns them around again to use as stilts for his hands, adding inches to the reach of his upwards kick that sends a far-taller opponent reeling back.
This feels in violation of ZCE rules, but I'm not sure if the attempt at indicating quotation saves it from being a plagiarism problem.
Edited by AdannoropenAssPull Discussion Follow-up Anime
Back in November, I added an entry to the Bleach page relating to an Ass Pull in the final arc. To summarize it as much as I can; a character with an established ability is told that he was using it wrong and that essentially his Guardian Entity had given him a fake name because it deemed him "not worthy". This is told essentially right before the character uses the new power for the first time. The entry is below.
The reveal that Renji's Bankai (Hihio Zabimaru) was actually the result of not using the true name of Zabimaru's Bankai, Sōō Zabimaru, comes out of nowhere in the final arc and doesn't even get a good explanation for why Zabimaru would lie or hide it's true name from Renji for no reason beyond a vague idea of Zabimaru not respecting him enough. The only piece of foreshadowing is if you understand the Meaningful Name of his original Bankai, "Baboon King Snake Tail", versus the true name, "Twin Kings Snake Tail", but not only does that require understanding Japanese or having it flat out spelt out, but the only reason one could guess at the idea is if you interpret the names, which any normal reader would realistically not think of.
Tropers/bandersnitch removed it, citing; "Renji's Zanpakto Spirit is a Nue. A being that is around 90% babboon and 10% snake. Yet his original Bankai was mostly based on the snake, so that was a clue that he hadn't unlocked the full potential of his Bankai."
Nubian Satyress and myself took this to discussion and discussed this with Bandersnitch about how the entry fit, but as of today there has been no follow-up since December 9th.
The only points Bandersnitch argued was that the Meaningful Name and appearance foreshadowed it, but upon reviewing the information, Nubian and myself argued this was Faux Symbolism because, well frankly, this is a medium where a Meaningful Name is used for Rule of Cool moreso then anything.
So this is to get others opinion on it and try and bring this topic to a close. For those wondering, Nubian and myself feel this qualifies as an Ass Pull while Bandersnitch does not.
Edited by keyblade333open YMMV Pokemon Journeys/2019 Anime issue: Jackpot21 versus Franchise Original Sin Anime
...Yes, I know, but this is a trope I really stand for, stand on, and I want to fix it without starting an edit war.
Okay, so here's what Jackpot
removed.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/PokemonJourneysTheSeries
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- Franchise Original Sin:
- Ash has had a co-lead before, most famously in the form of Dawn. At several points Dawn would take the lead as the focus character even in the midst of what might be considered an Ash focused storyline, such as during the Maylene episodes where she took a lead in roughly half of the four episodes. Fans have more problems with Goh doing this than Dawn due to it being perceived as more often and more intrusive to Ash's focus.
- It has been in Ash's nature at several points to have the course of the journey dictated by those around him more than his own, notably with May and Dawn's Contests and Serena's Showcases. However this is perhaps the first series where such a occurrence has been widely criticized and disliked by a sizeable and vocal portion of the fanbase, with Goh's goals tending to dominate a large chunk of episode over Ash's being a frequent issue with such fans. Possible reasons for this being Goh's captures often occurring in episodes that would have once been considered filler thus giving the fans a feeling that Goh gets more focus than he actually is intended to, Goh's goal being relevant more frequently than the female companions and thus aggravating fans more, or just the fact that Goh's status as a designated co-lead means that any imbalance in focus is more tangible to the fanbase.
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This is Jackpot's given reason for removing it.
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Dawn isn’t classified as a protagonist but as a traveling companion. The difference between her and Goh is that Dawn’s focus episodes were spread out and didn’t overshadow Ash’s journey, usually involved competing in Contests, bettering herself as a Coordinator, or had to do with her Pokémon, whereas with Goh’s focus episodes, they tend to happen every few episodes and would more often than not be about a specific Pokémon that he’d catch at the end of the episode. Also, how did Ash’s companions dictate his journey? Most of the Contests or Showcases were on the way to whatever Gym he’d challenge next. That’s far different from Goh dragging him around to whatever location he found out a specific Pokémon will be at or a specific event taking place. ...
I am very familiar with the Pokemon fanbase. I am aware of how the fanbase is and what the show is like for twenty years, and what it is now. I am aware of Goh is seen, and I am able to look at it historically.
Dawn was treated as a Co-Lead. In the opening of DP anime episodes, it is the 'adventures of Satoshi (Ash) and Hikari (Dawn). May, Iris, Serena, Misty, etc did not get this. The only one who gets that is Goh.
As to the point about direction, at several points in the series the company diverts their path to go to places that are contest or showcase based (For example, in Kalos Ash does this for some of Serena's later performances)
Also, and I suspect this is the most important, this is YMMMV. Your Mileage May Vary. I don't think the edit removal given really works as that argument is more for 'yes or no' tropes versus opinion tropes. Jackpot removed it more on 'I don't agree with it' lines, which strikes me as problematic for YMMV tropes, especially as Goh's issues brought up are a commonly held opinion on many sites like Bulbargarden and Spacebattles and the point of 'being something in the originals' is used in debate there and acknowledged as such.
Please help me return the trope to YMMV Journeys. I added it originally so I cannot without risking an edit war (while I added it back in August 21 so I have no idea if that makes a reversing edit two and a half months is the edit, remove, edit definitions or not.)
Edited by KrspaceT

I'm not going to mince words on it: I think the Shonen Jump page is a complete mess, namely all of the folders and sections in the middle of the page. IMO there's way too many folders, too many gigantic folders, a bunch of weird placements that don't make intuitive sense, a bizarre Adaptations section, etc. I don't know when exactly this happened (based on the Discussion page this has been sitting like this since ~2019) but I do remember the older version of this page from years back and while it wasn't necessarily perfect it was significantly more usable than the page in its current state.
I'm bringing this up here to at the very least draw some attention to it and get some responses and feedback on what should be done before proceeding on anything. Cleaning it up would be quite a bit of work for me to do by myself/on a single go so I would appreciate any help with it, and I'd like to get some consensus on a few things with it as well. Biggest part would be addressing some of the sister mags; while most of the folders are IMO superfluous I do think some are at least worth highlighting given the overlaps involved (for example Viz's Shonen Jump app pulls from Jump+, Jump Square, and V-Jump).