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open Sweetness Aversion misuse (widespread)?
Sweetness Aversion is when audiences have a negative reaction to overly saccharine works. It was formerly Tastes Like Diabetes but was changed to separate the negative audience reaction examples from others. But the Sweetness Aversion sub-pages look like they were moved without cleaning up misuse as almost all fail to explain the negative reaction to it or play with it which YMMV can't be.
Some examples from SweetnessAversion.Western Animation:
- Lady Rainicorn from Adventure Time looks like a toy
◊ but is really a Badass Adorable. Not this if positively received as described.
- Animaniacs:
- Mindy. Between "Wakko's Wish" and the Buttons and Mindy episode "Mindy in Wonderland," one could vomit from the sugar overdose. Especially with the line "Fuzzy Bunny," and, "'kay I love you bye bye." Might count, might be a parody.
- "Baloney And Kids" parodies this with the namesake Barney clone. Deliberate parody. Does that fit something else?
- "Valuable Lesson" features Moral Guardians making the Warners watch an expy of The Smurfs with a lesson on being angry as an example of the kind of program Animaniacs needs to be. Same as above.
- Arthur becomes this during Kate and Pal's episodes. The series could be seen as becoming something of it as a whole thanks to the new animation. '''ZCE as to how it's such and the negative reaction to it.
- Batman: The Animated Series Baby
◊ Doll
◊ seems this, but is really a 30-year-old insane woman who merely acts like a little girl thanks to her massive issues stemming from being a Former Child Star whose body never matured past childhood. Double misuse it it was one of the saddest, best received work from the show.'
- ChalkZone is considered by many to be the sweetest and cutest of all the Nicktoons. This initially hurt its reception amongst viewers though as many it was too saccharine, but the show has earned itself a decent-sized fanbase over the years. Largely valid. But is the last part Natter?
- Hasbro's My Little Pony cartoons are famous and notorious for this, but reality is a bit murkier... Valid the franchise was considered this, but this seems wishy-washy on it. Does it count if it was wasn't actually that saccharine but still perceived as such?
- The original 1980's cartoons had this to an extent (lord knows the theme songs did), at least until the villains showed up. The Movie was probably the most diabetes-laden part of G1, even with the villains. (Y'know, the one with the ever-spreading, all-consuming, Hate Plague-inducing, eye- and mouth-spawning living ooze that is frequently compared to the Shoggoths from the Cthulhu Mythos.)
- It's mostly in the Direct-to-Video Generation 3 (early 2000's) that the My Little Pony cartoons acquired the reputation for tasting like diabetes. This generation contained, arguably, some of the cutest ponies in the show, and had a very feminine look towards it, as well as heart-warming friendship moments being used to their fullest. This got taken Up To Eleven when the already-cute characters were retooled into the "Animesque" style fans dubbed "G3.5". But even these two eras have their share of adventuring (in particular, the hot air balloon they take to the place they need to go always seems to end up with ponies needing to be saved from plummeting to their deaths, and never get into water in G3: the Inevitable Waterfall is a certainty!) Valid if it was big part of audiences feeling the franchise was such.
- Unintentionally subverted with one specific part of G3.5, Newborn Cuties, and not in a good way. They obviously try to go for this, but instead, the peculiar art style and poor animation leaves the "cuties" looking very unsettling. Behold.
Can't be played with so this seems like a unrelated complaint.
- Unintentionally subverted with one specific part of G3.5, Newborn Cuties, and not in a good way. They obviously try to go for this, but instead, the peculiar art style and poor animation leaves the "cuties" looking very unsettling. Behold.
- My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic from mere subject matter alone is a very adorable and sweet show, so there is no shortage of diabetes and Narm Charm is in abundance. But that hasn't stopped it from playing around and lampooning itself to lessen the diabetes. While the show has diven into the sugar sweetness with no hint of irony whatsoever, it will sometimes throw lampshades on this as a source of comedy. Fluttershy's cute shyness is sometimes played up for jokes. Pinkie Pie's singing and overly cheerful demeanor has irritated characters on many occasions, Spike mocks Twilight's excessively sentimental wrap-up in an episode, The Cutie Mark Crusaders react to Big Macintosh's and Cheerilee's sappy love talk with visible disgust, and Rainbow Dash is utterly terrified of extreme cuteness. Not an examples as this has broke the franchise stigma of being this such it achieved mainstream popularity/acceptance. Cut or worth noting it playes with this expectation as part of the series. If the latter should it just be added to the franchise wide examples saying it broke that?
Almost all the other examples have these issues? Should we just cut examples that don't mention the negative audience reaction? Or is this something needing a proper cleanup?
openAdd back of misused examples Live Action TV
So on Stranger Things. A bunch of Narm entries were removed via the cleanup thread for being misuse and Not An Example with a link to the thread in the edit reason.
Legends Avatar 798 not only wholesale added them all back but also ignored that the edit reason said to come their if anyone wanted to re discuss a removed example
openOdd edit to YMMV/VsSonicExe
So on YMMV.Vs Sonic Exe, this used to be under Rescued from the Scrappy Heap:
- One major compliment of the mod is that it takes one of the most infamously Narm-y creepypastas in existence and manages to make its titular antagonist genuinely intimidating through his disturbing Body Horror animations, his ominously deep voice, and an incredibly fast and frantic song that keeps the player on their toes. In other words; it made Sonic.exe legitimately scary. This is especially the case when it comes to EXE, who was designed with the express purpose of making Sonic.exe actually scary in 2020, and his showing in the mod succeeds with flying colors - especially when it comes to his nightmarish transformation sequence.
Real Escape 99 removed the part about EXE with the edit reason "Faker Isnt Any More Scary Than Xenophanes Or The Others What Are You Talking About"
Ignoring the fact that the edit reason Capitalizes Every Word, the write up wasn't saying that EXE was scarier than the others, it was using EXE as an example of how the mod succeeds at making Sonic.EXE scary.
Maybe I'm looking to much into it, but it feels like an odd reason to delete.
openYMMV Entry Restoration Videogame
The 2017 video game Mass Effect: Andromeda features a character that is supposed to be a powerful, violent, intimidating female warlord from a Proud Warrior Race. The voice of the character in question sounds like, to be blunt, a very stereotypically effeminate gay male, to the point where it sounds like a parody. Think Family Guy cutaway portrayal of a gay male, except it's supposed to be taken seriously. It's legitimately not very clear that this character is supposed to even be a female. Because of this and the character fighting in an extremely poorly animated and choreographed scene, this character has been overwhelmingly ridiculed and mocked by players and fans.
It turns out the person who provided the voice recordings for this character is transgender. DGCatAniSiri removed a Narm entry from the YMMV page, claiming that such an entry is transphobic. There was no mention of transgenderism in the entry.
I've sent a message to DGCatAniSiri explaining that even if this claim had any weight, it's irrelevant. Explaining that YMMV entries don't become valid or invalid based upon whether the fan reaction was "right," and that they are perfectly free to disagree. After weeks, a follow up message, and more weeks, they still haven't responded, despite being active.
May I restore this entry?
Edited by HeartOfStoneopen Is this an Edit War?
So on YMMV.Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness, lbssb added
this to the Narm Charm tree:
- Narm Charm: C'mon, it's a Sam Raimi movie:
I removed
it because it felt informal and I didn't see what it added to the entry. However,
lbssb added
this to the tree:
- Narm Charm: It is a Sam Raimi film, after all; he's quite well-known for this:
Like this nearly the same thing just reworded. I can't find anywhere where they discussed this. Is this an Edit War?
Edited by BullmanopenRevert due to awful grammar.
JonathanGulster
's grammar and overall editing is really bad, honestly more than I can expect to be rectified with any number of notifiers. I'll send them, but flagging.
However, I need a mod to revert this page
to before they edited it.
openQuestion about Narm
I noticed that on Narm's subpages (like Narm.Five Nights At Freddys), theres a Flame Bait banner. However, Narm itself has a YMMV banner, and isn't in the Flame Bait index. What's up with that?
openEdit war
DogOnRollerSkates
is edit-warring over a Narm entry on this
page. They added
the entry, Dylandbk
deleted
it saying the scene is intentionally funny and thus doesn't count as Narm, and Dog re-added
it saying it does.
This is the second time
Dog has been involved in an edit war, and they were suspended for it before.
openBioshock 2 laconic edit war. Videogame
I changed the laconic for Bioshock 2, it was changed back and I thought I just forgot to publish the edit so I changed it again. The laconic thread told me that mine was a better description of the game. It was changed back a few days ago. The troper in question, Anti Hero 276, who also created the page back in February, reverted my edit from this
openAdded back edit
I removed these from YMMV.It Takes Two 2021 but they were added back by separate tropers.
- CrossesTheLineTwice: The infamous part where Cutie the Elephant is murdered by the main protagonists is intended to be over-the-top BlackComedy in the spirit of a ''[[Series/MontyPythonsFlyingCircus Monty Python]]'' sketch, though some players still felt it was [[DudeNotFunny too disturbing]].
- Designated Hero: Cody and May end up as these when drag Cutie the Elephant to her death as she cries and begs for them to stop, slowly tearing off her leg and an ear when they get snagged on a door and a fallen screwdriver respectively. While they don't like doing the deed, they do dance in their daughter's tears thinking they will finally return them to normal. They don't.
- Intended Audience Reaction: Many people reacted negatively to the fact that Cody and May had no qualms with killing Cutie the Elephant because they think it'll return them to normal, citing it as the moment where they stopped sympathizing with Cody and May's plight. The point of that scene is to show Cody and May are terrible people who need to fix themselves (and their relationship) in order to be free of their curse. Cody and May previously had committed less-than-stellar deeds of leaving behind their beetle steed to die and breaking their promise to Moon Baboon that they'll protect Rose when they think it could benefit them. The scene with Cutie was just the tip of the iceberg.
The creators confirm Cody and May were not supposed to be sympathetic in that moment
and I believe one moment is not enough to count as Designated Hero regardless so cut. Intended Audience Reaction is not YMMV so should be cut as well.
Crosses the Line Twice was intended to be this but it seems many felt it failed so should it be cut? Dude, Not Funny! is In-Universe Examples Only so it should be cut regardless.
Permission to re-cut? Since it got added back by what seems like completely separate tropers is there anything else to do like adding commented out notes?
Edited by Ferot_DreadnaughtopenCleaning up call of duty modern warfare 2019 Videogame
Okay so uh thanks to you know recent events in Ukraine. Alot of the entries in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare (2019) now come off as rather cringey decrying how the Russian military are depicted here.
It's weird but a lott if it has aged badly.
We have entries commenting on how the Big Bad is correct in his aims because because some of the people he abuses are actually terrorists (unintentionallySymphatetic) or a Demonization which uh if you've been checking events their is now awful with hindsight.
- Demonization: Russians in Modern Warfare are evil, weak, cowardly, and stupid.
- The Russian military is portrayed as monsters who commit Obligatory War Crime after Obligatory War Crime. Evil Russians beating innocent civilians begging for mercy. Evil Russians forcing civilians to watch the public executions of their neighbors. Evil Russians executing unarmed and surrendering civilians en masse. Evil Russians attacking children with intent to kill. Evil Russians nonchalantly executing wounded civilians. Evil Russians torturing helpless and innocent prisoners. Even Nikolai, the one Russian character allied with the protagonists, shows no qualms in kidnapping an innocent woman and child so the protagonists can threaten to execute them in order to psychologically torture the child's father.
- The Russian participation in the conflict in Urzikstan is never shown with an ounce more nuance than "Evil invading Russians are massacring innocent Arabs for no other reason than insane paranoia or outright sadism." Despite the conflict being explicitly called a Civil War, not once do we ever see any actual 'Urzikstanic' natives fighting alongside or cooperating with the Russians. Additionally, the Russians are producing the chemical weapons which are the basis of the plot, which is portrayed as an act of irredeemable evil that automatically qualifies the perpetrator as a terrorist.
- Additionally, Russians are not only shown to be pure evil, but absurdly incompetent. The only successes the Russians have in the story are against completely helpless civilians and children. This is seen most strikingly on a mission where the Russian military is defeated by a group of starving, abused teenage girls with zero combat training. We see this again at the end: in most Call of Duty games the campaign ends with a climatic struggle against an antagonist who is usually able to put up a fight and often expresses some reluctant respect for the protagonist. In Modern Warfare, Farah sneaks up behind the evil Russian general, stabs him, he grabs her and struggles with her a bit, she grabs the knife and stabs him some more while he begs and pleads for his life.
openOf Narm and subpages
So I've discovered a fairly cut-and-dry example of Narm in a Tabletop Game that doesn't currently have a page on the wiki—specifically, an incident where a monster in a game was renamed by the designers because fans pointed out that the original name was unintentionally goofy. However, unlike a lot of other "broad-spectrum" YMMV tropes (like Ho Yay or Friendly Fandoms), Narm doesn't have either a Tabletop Games section or an "Other" section to collect a lot of the examples from smaller media.
The question is, what should I do if I want to add the example?
- Create an "Other examples" section on the main page that isn't in a subpage, and make a Tabletop Games folder there
- Create an "Other" subpage, and create a "Tabletop Games" folder there
- Create a "Tabletop Games" subpage and just use that
(Observation: Although Narm doesn't have a Tabletop Games section, Narm Charm does...)
openComplaining? Music
While looking at YMMV.Clean Bandit, I found an odd entry:
- Narm Charm: The pre-choruses of "Rockabye" about the protagonist's love for her child and her wish for him to have a better life are so emotionally vibrant that most fans don't notice or care how bad the writing is.
The thing is, I haven't seen complaints about the song's writing. This entry also seems like it's insulting the fanbase. May I remove it?
openPossible Edit War on YMMV.TheBookOfBobaFett Live Action TV
Troper StrangeBro
added a Narm entry on YMMV.The Book Of Boba Fett which read:
- Narm: The Chase Scene in "The Streets of Mos Espa" was mocked for its apparent sluggishness, obvious and jarring green-screening, and out-of-place tone (fans observed that a bunch of Cyborg Scooter Riding Mods on gleaming, color-coded "space Vespas" would be more at home in Spy Kids than Star Wars).
open[Resolved] Narm Flamebait?
Narm's subpages have the Flame Bait header on them even though Narm itself does not and they aren't listed anywhere else, and I've been wondering how does that work.
Edited by AmonimusopenTroper re-added incorrect trope by potholing it in another entry
The troper yin_13147 had Translation Train Wreck listed on the Qian Qiu YMMV page and even made a subpage (now deleted) that listed translation complaints about the official subtitles. Based on what the YMMV entry and examples said, the official translation isn't awful enough to qualify for the trope (it has laughable issues but it's still comprehensible and only partly mistranslated). I can't retrieve the old examples, but here's some links
with screenshots
of the official subtitles
that show it isn't Translation Train Wreck levels of bad as a whole.
I removed the trope from the YMMV page
with an edit reason and had the subpage cutlisted while moving some examples to the main page under Lost in Translation (I made a mistake here as most of the examples didn't apply to that trope either, but that's been fixed now). The troper just recently re-added TranslationTrainWreck
to YMMV by potholing it in another entry under Narm ("But mistranslations mistranslations and atrociously-phrased dialogue dialogue aside, [...]"). I've explained to them in a message why the trope doesn't apply to the work, but may I remove that pothole at least?
May be worth mentioning that the troper seems to be obsessed with talking about the work's translation quality, as they also previously made a Qian Qiu Lost in Translation subpage (also cutlisted) just to replicate the examples from the old Translation Train Wreck subpage and list other errors/critique.
openTwo issues with YMMV/It2017
On It (2017), there was this line by troper Youtubenut:
- Narm:
- For some, Pennywise's voice. Bill Skarsgård was clearly going for a more childish take on Pennywise's voice but ended up sounding a little too much like a mentally challenged Scooby-Doo.
As an autistic person I was annoyed at the comparison, but I wanted to bring it here to make sure I'm allowed to change the wording, and looking for suggestions on what I should change it to. Don't wanna come across as Righting Great Wrongs, but that felt... a little ableist, to put it mildly. Especially because Pennywise is a horrifying villain.
Additionally, there's this:
- Draco in Leather Pants:
- Pennywise. You read that right. Not the handsome actor Bill Skarsgård, Pennywise. The man-eating, child-torturing, pedophilically-toned shapeshifting Monster Clown has groupies. After all, he appreciates the simple things in life such as popcorn, rides, balloons and of course, children. Entire blogs have sprung up of people wanting to meet Pennywise and have him do very dirty things to them.
I already cut out the link to one blog in question and some extra judgmental commentary that felt unnecessary, citing No Lewdness, No Prudishness. The cut text:
While it's not my thing, per se, I don't think we're here to pass judgment on how other people perceive and consume media. Should I delete the chained sinkholes in the current version of the entry as well (Sarcasm Mode, Blatant Lies, and Comically Missing the Point)?
Edited by annieholmesopenSubjectiveness of Narm
I recently added a Narm entry to the Star Wars: The Clone Wars YMMV page regarding a particular line which totally ruined a scene for me due to what I thought was a very whiny delivery from the VA.
Soon after another troper pounced and removed the edit. They had thought I was criticising the whole scene (which I wasn't, I said the scene was very dramatic other than that one line) and that I needed to provide evidence that other people thought it was Narmy.
Now, I'm not going to get into an edit war over this as it doesn't really matter to me, but I was checking the main page for Narm and it doesn't say anywhere that examples must be supported with evidence that others agree. The main page even states that Narm is completely subjective.
I have also seen multiple examples of Narm from other tropers that I completely disagree with and just look like nitpicking to me (which my Star Wars example probably was as well, to be fair) but I have left these in place because, as I understood it, Narm is supposed to be subjective.
What are your thoughts on this? Should Narm examples provide evidence that others agree? Can we delete other tropers' entries just because we don't agree that it's Narm?
Edited by Sinister_SandwichopenPseudo Edit War
There is a particular example that has been added and removed repeatedly on Eternals. The film introduces a character called Sprite, who became the subject of mockery among some fans due to her green and white costume bringing to mind the logo of the eponymous soda. Timeline below:
- Dog On Roller Skates adds a Narm example comparing Sprite's costume to the soda's logo.
- I remove the example because Narm is for specific moments that are unintentionally funny, not for character designs.
- Dog contacts me via PM, and we agree that WTH, Costuming Department? would be a better trope to describe this audience reaction. The example is thus re-added to the page.
- Dii Archer deletes the example without an edit reason.
- Ciara 25 copies and pastes the original Narm example, bringing us back to square one.
What should be done here? I have checked the Narm cleanup thread enough times to know that this is misuse, but I can't do anything without starting a real Edit War.

I removed a bunch of entries from the YMMV page of the Granolah's arc from Dragon Ball Super, since they were violations of policy (adding a Broken Base entry just days after the arc had ended, for example, alongside a It Was His Sled entry, and an Audience-Alienating Ending entry when the entire arc is days old). I also removed some entries that read as too much complaining instead of actually showing an audience reaction, particularly concerning Narm, Ass Pull, Franchise Original Sin and Fan-Disliked Explanation.
troper AMassiveOvereditor
(Which originally added most of these entries) added a bunch of entries back, with the exception of the entries that negated policy. What should be done in this case? I feel that rather than reflecting the views of the audience itself, the page just merely centers on the views of this specific troper. Not to say that there isn't examples of Narm and Ass Pull (I left some of those and after some days I thought that maybe I should have added back the Black Frieza entry in Ass Pull), but I feel that the page as a whole is too negative, which is a common problem in the Dragon Ball Super manga pages.
Edited by Edgar81539