No Title

Beatles 1963 just posted this on the discussion page for Shallow Parody.

"My god this page is full of butthurt."

EDIT: They're also removing examples and calling them "whiny" and "butthurt".

Edited by MrMediaGuy2

Limit Break Misuse?

I noticed that Limit Break has been prone to misuse. If I'm reading the trope right, it says here that a Limit Break is a type of move that a character can perform when a certain condition is met. However, in many JRPG and anime pages, most people think that a Limit Break is a character's ultimate attack, regardless if it has a condition or not.

For example, in the Tales Series, by the trope's defination, all Artes qualify as a Limit Break because they consume an MP meter which can be refilled by attacking, defending, etc., not just Mystic Artes (which are ultimate attacks).

For actual ultimate attacks, I think they would either fall under Finishing Move or Super Move Portrait Attack.

Edited by DivineFlame100

difference between two indexes

What is the difference between Stock Shout-Outs and the "Specific references" section on Shout-Outs Index? I am considering where to put Jumping the Shark.

Multi-person Edit War on YMMV.StarTrekPicard

The following entry has been the subject of a long, drawn-out, multi-person Edit War on YMMV.Star Trek Picard:

• "Common Knowledge": The show's detractors often complain that the Federation is "racist" now, and that they refused to help the Romulans due to bigotry. In the show proper, however, Starfleet did try to help the Romulans evacuate for several years before the attack on Mars destroyed much of the armada they'd been relying on. Furthermore, it's made explicitly clear that the decision to cancel the rescue was a case of Realpolitik rather than racial bigotry — many member worlds were uncomfortable expending so much resources to help the Romulan Star Empire, the Federation's oldest enemy, and following the attack on Mars, Starfleet simply couldn't afford to rebuild the rescue fleet from scratch. The ships that were already deployed were ordered to stand down and cease helping, using the situation on Mars as a reason to abandon the project as a whole.
  • In addition, writer Michael Chabon has confirmed that much of the Federation's isolationist streak is a lingering effect of the damage the still fairly recent Dominion War did. However, Executive Meddling has so far prevented the show from exploring this in any greater detail due to fears of Continuity Lock-Out.

I'm of the opinion that it's Not an Example. It's unclear from the show precisely how much of the decision to pull out of the Romulan evacuation effort was due to a lack of ships and how much was due to anti-Romulan sentiment, however it is clearly stated that fourteen Federation member worlds were threatening to secede before the attack on Mars led to a lack of ships, specifically because of anti-Romulan sentiment. Characterizing the Federation as having an element of anti-Romulan racism is canonically correct.

As for the improperly indented second bullet point, Word of God is interesting trivia and everything, but if it didn't make it into the show proper then it didn't make it into the show proper, and even if it did, it doesn't change the main point at hand.

Sub/super trope sorting on indexes

There's been a disagreement on a TLP draft about whether indexes can/should have subtropes as second-level bullets under the supertrope.

This is forbidden for works by Example Indentation in Trope Lists, but it is common on many indexes (for example, Hollywood Atlas). Is this kosher?

How does one link to an existing index?

OK, there is an existing index for all characters that have appeared in the Dragon Age comics (The Silent Grove, Those Who Speak, Until We Sleep, Magekiller, Knight Errant, Deception, Blue Wraith) put out by Dark Horse.

That index can be found here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/DragonAgeComics

The thing is, while that index links back to the individual pages for each of those comics, none of the individual comic pages link back to that index. There is no Characters tab at the top of all those pages.

My question is, how does one add that link to all the individual Dragon Age comics pages?

Edited by FaceofEvil

Cover art of a fanfic

I was hoping to add the cover art for the Fanfic Fate/Magnus Bellum to the main tropes page, but the cover art itself is largely official Nasuverse art cobbled together into a cover page for the story (though it's set up in a way that I find aesthetically pleasing). Is it kosher for me to add something like that to a tropes page because of that? I read the rules regarding images and I didn't see anything that said anything against it so long as it lacks bugs, copyright marks, and watermarks, but I'm asking here for full clarity.

Renaming King Arthur the Matter of Britain

Thoughts on renaming King Arthur the Matter Of Britain?

Planning to split VideoGame.Diablo into a page for series and the game...

Planning to split VideoGame.Diablo into a page for series and the game...

Should I call the game's page, Diablo 1, or Diablo I? The latter matches its Roman Numbered Sequels style...

Is there such a thing as too many Ensemble Darkhorses?

YMMV.Animal Crossing

• Ensemble Dark Horse: Quite a few of the potential villagers who could live in your town. It really depends on their personality and how cute or cool they look though:
  • Lazy villagers are particularly popular due to their very friendly and amicable personalities. Some examples include Stitches the cub (who resembles a patchwork teddy bear), Lucky the mummy dog, Zucker the octopus, Drago (an alligator who resembles an Eastern dragon), Filbert the squirrel, Bob and Punchy (both of which are cats, the former is believed to be the first villager ever created), and Beau and Erik (deer).
  • Although Smug villagers tend to be hit or miss depending on designs, a few are popular enough to be wanted. The biggest example is Marshal the squirrel, but others include Kyle the wolf, Shep the sheepdog, Jacques the bird, O'Hare the rabbit, Colton and Julian the horse (the latter who looks like a unicorn), Olaf the Anteater, Raymond the cat, and Lopez and Zell (deer).
  • Similarly, most Uchi villagers are not particularly wanted, but some are well liked enough. Examples of these include Fuchsia and Deirdre (both deer), Mira the rabbit (if only because she's a conspicuous Shout-Out to Sailor Venus), Cherry the dog, Phoebe the ostrich (who looks like a phoenix), and Muffy the sheep.
  • Some of the more popular normal villagers include Fauna (deer), Marina (the only female octopus), Merengue (rhino whose head resembles a strawberry shortcake), Maple (bear cub), Molly (duck), Flurry (hamster), Goldie and Daisy (dogs), Poppy (squirrel), Skye (wolf with the same colors as the sky), Tia and Margie (the former is an elephant that resembles a teapot and the later had a role in the Animal Crossing movie.), Coco (rabbit whose head resembles a Gyroid), Lily (frog), and Kiki, Mitzi and Lolly (cats).
  • Cranky villagers are generally not well liked due to having rough personalities in general, but a few manage to stand out: Apollo the eagle (who even had a role in the movie), Rolf the white tiger, Octavian the octopus, Bruce the deer, Kabuki the cat, Static the squirrel, Roscoe the horse, and Chief, Fang, Wolfgang, and Lobo (wolves).
  • Snooty villagers are usually seen as hard to get along with due to being well, snooty, but quite a few are highly desired. Ankha the Egyptian-themed cat, Diana the deer, Willow the sheep, Portia (a dog modeled after a dalmatian), Freya and Whitney (both wolves with the latter even having a role in the movie), and Francine the rabbit are just a few.
  • Popular peppy villagers include Rosie, Felicity and Tangy (all three are cats, with the former even having a role in the movie and the latter whose head resembles an orange), Cookie and Maddie (dogs), Ruby, Chrissy, Bunnie, Bonbon and Dotty (Rabbits), Flora the ostrich (who looks like a flamingo), Sprinkle the penguin, and Peanut the squirrel.
  • Jock villagers aren’t overly popular due to their hit-or-miss designs, but a handful of them are wanted enough. Examples include Rudy and Kid Cat (both cats with the latter being designed as a superhero), Bam the deer, Snake and Genji (rabbits), Hamlet the hamster, Ribbot the robot frog, and Scoot the duck (who gained most of his fanbase from Vinesauce).
  • As far as species are concerned, some are more popular then others. Familiar animals such as wolves, cats, rabbits, dogs, deer, sheep, bears (both cubs and regular), hamsters, frogs, and squirrels are popular enough that players will try to fill their town with nothing but these species. Deer appear to be the most wanted since every single deer villager appears somewhere on the list.
  • Octopuses are also popular because there are only four of them in the entire series (Marina (Normal), Zucker (Lazy), Octavian (Cranky), and Inkwell (Jock)).
  • While ostriches aren't the most familiar animals, they’re generally well-liked due to their creative designs, which often incorporate elements of other, more familiar birds (e.g. Flora looks like a flamingo).
  • Welcome amiibo re-introduced villagers who haven't been in more recent Animal Crossing games, or only appeared in the Japan-exclusive Doubutsu no Mori e+. Some of the more popular ones include Ketchup (a duck with a tomato for a head), Dobie, Vivian (wolves), Julia (peacock-like ostrich) and Stella (sheep). The Sanrio characters are also pretty popular, but of that group, Etoile the sheep^note based on the Little Twin Stars seems to be the most loved. As for the Crossover characters, W. Link is easily the most popular.

They seem to be listing a lot of villagers here, who what I gathered, seem to be popular relative to their minor role. Some of the examples are also general too. And if all of those villagers are extremely well liked, wouldn’t that mean that none of them in particular stand out?

This was also asked here

Esoteric Happy Ending issue

This was deleted then added back under Esoteric Happy Ending:

• Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans ends with Gjallarhorn successfully disbanding Tekkadan by force. While the ending is portrayed as positive with Gjallarhorn being reformed to be more democratic and granting Martian independence, it still doesn't change the fact that the new Gjallahorn is still run by the old regime with little to stop them from continuing their corruption. Then, one of the Tekkadan survivors forms his own terrorist organization dedicated to avenging his boss' death, meaning that the cycle of revenge and violence will continue.

It was deleted arguing it was an intentionally cynical Bittersweet Ending. I was then added back arguing “ To quote the description: “Not to be confused with a Bittersweet Ending, in which the darker or less pleasant elements are acknowledged[...] although it can still end up being this when those same darker elements out-weigh the pleasant ones in the minds of some viewers.”

I think that description predates cleanup efforts where we decided it only count if there are objectively unacknowledged bitter components. Just thinking something too dark is Angst Aversion. Should that be changed?

As for the entry, the first part about potentially nothing stoping the old regime from continuing corruption is valid as Fridge Horror. The second part I say is misuse as said Tekkadan survivors only sought to kill a single target who wholly deserved it, constant with the series themes that such requires sacrifice (I’d argue the first part is also this as it was the only way to get as happy an ending as they did.) And they cut ties with the rest of Tekkaden to protect them from the consequences, meaning at least it was intentionally written as a bitter part of the ending.

WebVideo or Fanfic?

Fanfic.What If Gine Went With Goku To Earth is a page that, well, is in the fanfic namespace.

But it's hosted on Youtube and while it's absolutely fanfiction, it's spoken word fanfiction and not prose or text. That... seems like a weird choice of namespace.

Actually, looks like all of MasakoX's individal Dragonball Discussions that have their own pages are the same. Oddly enough, the parent page is in the web video namespace: WebVideo.Masako X Dragon Ball What If

Thoughts?

Edited by Larkmarn

Neo-Nazis: Those Wacky Nazis or A Nazi by Any Other Name?

Apologies if this isn't the place to ask.

Page for Bambi's Ronno

So i noticed that troper Prinzenick made an entire page for one character in Bambi, /Bambi Ronno to be exact, but it wasn't linked to the page yet, no to mention that it was done without any discussion.

I was wondering if that is allowed, since usually the characters the get exclusive pages are usually reserves for long running franchises and the such.

Edited by fasoman1996

Agenda based troper. Live Action TV

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Tropers/Gemma So this new troper's has been writing natter mostly in the Headscratchers.Friends. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.Friends. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Creator.AllisonPregler https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Creator.AnaDeArmas#edit25523365Edit Edit: They added this under Recap.Friends S 5 E 15 The One With The Girl Who Hits Joey

• Double Standard: Abuse, Female on Male: Zig-zagged. This episode initially plays it as a joke that Joey's new girlfriend Katie keeps hurting him by hitting him playfully. However, Joey is not okay with it and does end up breaking up with her. Rachel also gets a taste of it and realizes how wrong they were to mock Joey; she tries to give Katie a taste of her own medicine before throwing off all pretenses and giving her a good kick. Still, it's hard to imagine this episode as "The One with The Boy Who Hits Monica", so the Double Standard is clearly in effect.
  • not really. The joke was about Katy’s size, not really about gender.

Their response to my natter notification was just to say "well other people liked it."

The reason why I didn't report them before is because I'm not really sure how to describe their agenda only than saying it is natter and poorly written natter at that.

Edited by LadyErinNY

Question about creators in examples.

I created a TLP called Middle East Makeup and added an example talking about actress Theda Bara which states thus:

• Silent film actress Theda Bara made her career wearing this sort of aesthetic, especially in her portrayal of Cleopatra. Her look was so iconic that she became the Trope Namer of The Vamp for her 1915 film A Fool There Was, where she portrayed a literal vampire that lured men to be her unsuspecting victims.

Tropers.lukaSylvie and I then had the following disagreement in the comments:

• "By the way, the example for Theda Bara should have a rewrite because How To Write An Example forbids general examples."
  • I’m fairly sure that stating a person was typecast as a trope isn’t a general example. But, correct me if I’m wrong.
    • ^ No Lewdness, No Prudishness forbids:

1. Talking about actors instead of characters. An actor is not the character they play. When you're writing an example about a work, refer to the character, not the actor. This applies to non-sexual references, but too often it's tropers writing about how they find certain actors hot. That doesn't fit in character examples.

---

If I'm wrong here, then I suppose I can remove reference to the actress, but as far as I know, there's nothing wrong per se about mentioning that a creator was famous for, typecast as, or made common use of a trope in their works. Especially when said creator is a Trope Codifier or otherwise had an influential impact.

I understand why rules against "general" examples or talking about actors/actresses in terms of Lewdness/Prudishness is necessary, but in this case, it seems crazy not to talk about an actress who helped define how we look at a trope in Western media.

Edited by NubianSatyress

Troper with grammar/spelling issues

Necromaster 123 has problems with grammar and spelling. Their edits tend to lack commas and apostrophes, and most include run-on sentences. Edit history here.

Persian Mythology

Should we move the tropes in the subpage of Zoroastrianism to Persian Mythology because "tropes are not to be used to describe the subject of a Useful Notes article directly"?

Splitting the Useful Note on the Romani

The Useful Note on the Romani looks big, especially the sections for literature, live-action films, live-action TV, tabletop games, and video games. Is it allowed to split such an article even if it's a Useful Note?

Edited by IukaSylvie

Arthur Pendragon and the Lady of the Lake

Thoughts on moving Arthur Pendragon and The Lady of the Lake to the Myth/ namespace?

About this example of PeripheryDemographic.VideoGames

• Sonic the Hedgehog:
  • Also, it's extremely popular among people on the autistic spectrum. The Sonic universe has a pretty heavy amount of World Building to it. And since many of its characters adhere to a homogenized character design^note two circles for head and body; stick limbs; just pick a species, a color and a special ability and you're done which is conveniently simple and easy to draw, it's easy for people to create their own personas and stick them into the world via fanfiction.

I'm not really a fan of this example. Sure, I'm on the autism spectrum and love Sonic the Hedgehog really much, and I've seen several Sonic fans who have stated to be autistic, but in my eyes, this seems to enforce a common autism stereotype on the Internet that autistic people like Sonic, My Little Pony, or "immature" media. Stereotyping is one thing we should only apply to people in fiction, not in real life.

What are your thoughts on this? I want to know.

Removing dates from a list of films

Recently, there was a significant change to the two Mohs Scale of Violence Hardness/Film pages where the release dates for all of the films were removed. Also, the notes explaining why a film was placed on a certain level were replaced with normal text. I was just wondering if this should be reverted or not. Thank you for any responses.

I admit the page might have been overkill... Anime

But the Ashita No Joe Tearjerker page has been majorly edited. The new version seems fine at first glance but it removed major context and it has ZCE like instead of saying WHY the finale is sad it just says "The Finale".

How to fix crowners that have been affected by the bibble bop glitch

How would I restore a crowner that "bibble bopped"?

Questions about History of Video Games pages

I've occasionally been doing some indexing cleanup in the subpages for UsefulNotes.The History Of Video Games, but there are some things the pages that don't make sense to me.

First, they're all indexed as part of UsefulNotes.Asia and UsefulNotes.The Far East; and I notice that a number of other gaming tropes are also indexed there. While Japan is the major center of game development, I'm not sure gaming tropes belong on those indexes because gaming is global at this point.

Second, the lists of games per generation just seem odd. I can't entirely put my finger on why they don't feel right, but they're split into "new IP" and "Existing IP" sections, and they include non-game IPs like Tiny Toon Adventures tie-in games that feel out of place for these particular indexes. And with all games already indexed by console and by decade, a third set of game-list indexes comes off as redundant clutter. Do we even need to index games again here?