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Faux Action Girls in Yu-Gi-Oh! Anime
Jack Pot 21 has been continuously removing the Faux Action Girl entries in the different Yu-Gi-Oh! pages throughout the years, even after multiple users have been re-editing, providing justifications and reworking entries so that they show what the trope entails.
- Yu-Gi-Oh!: Mai Kujaku/Valentine is setup as a powerful duelist that manages to defeat Rex Raptor (the Japanese Championship runner-up) off-screen. However, she never manages to back-up said reputation, losing all of her major on-screen duels with the exception of one against Jean-Claude Magnum (a one-off mook) and one against Joey (who was thoroughly exhausted by his duel with Valon in the same episode) in the Doma arc.
- Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's: Akiza is an interesting example of this. She has a fearsome reputation as the "Black Rose Witch", a ferocious and powerful psychic duelist that enjoys inflicting pain on others. This is eventually revealed to be a facade created by Akiza as a response to being treated as a monster. As such, she goes from easily stomping her opponents and nearly defeating Yusei in the Fortune Cup, to losing in less than two turns to Andore in the WRGP. She also loses her psychic powers without much of a reason.
- Yu-Gi-Oh! ZEXAL: Rio Kamishiro is presented as The Ace that is both academically and sports-gifted, with many characters expressing awe at how competent and scary she is. However, she never quite manages to leave the shadow of her brother Shark, mostly serving as a source for his character drama and getting hospitalized, kidnapped, possessed, thrown-off a cliff, hospitalized (again) and finally killed by characters that just wanted to hurt and/or attract Shark's attention, with Rio never able to fight back once.
- Yu-Gi-Oh! VRAINS:
- Blue Angel/Aoi Zaizen is one of the most prominent Charisma Duelists in Link VRAINS, presented with a bubbly and energetic idol persona, but willing to prove herself as a duelist to her brother and Yusaku, and also getting multiple avatar makeovers related to her development, as if setting up a big character moment. Unfortunately, she always loses her duels against plot-prominent villains (and the protagonists), with her loss to Specter being presented as particularly humiliating. This is possibly lampshaded by the characters in the final episode, as Kusanagi thanks Aoi and the others for saving his brother and Link VRAINS, with Aoi admitting that she actually didn't do anything.
- Emma Besho/Ghost Girl is presented as a skillful hacker and bounty hunter hired by Akira Zaizen to gather information about Playmaker. She's actually quite competent at collecting data, spying on others and making her way through Link Vrains; it's the "bounty hunter" part of her description that she always fails at, with her only win in the entirety of VRAINS being against Brave Max. This is particularly ironic, given that her Altergeist deck was one of the most competitive decks ever featured in the anime.
Jack Pot 21 has been removing any entries regarding the franchise since some years ago with many shifting justifications. First it was that the entries centered around winrates; then when the entries were adjusted to not focus on winrates, he added the justification that "examples for this entry can be very subjective", but I can't help but feel that this is agenda-driven edition, and that he feels that the entries are attacks on the characters themselves rather than assessments of how the (male) staff has issues writing women, which is something that the YGO fanbase has acknowledged over and over.
When his original argument for the removal of the entries was
"Having what’s personally deem as an “unimpressive victory” or because they don’t have enough duels doesn’t mean a female character a Faux Action Girl. Aki for example has a good win/loss ratio, yet she’s labeled as one simply for being nicer in the second season, ignoring the fact she only had one loss and a few Action Girl moments outside of duels."
Which seems to me a very suspect justification shift, as he went from claiming that "not having enough duels doesn't mean a female character is a Faux Action Girl" to saying that "Rio's examples don't even include anything duel-related" which are two contradicting statements.
Also, I quote one of the opening statements in the Faux Action Girl definition
"She has a well-grounded reputation as a strong fighter in her field but always fails miserably in the line of battle. Her talents and skills are well-known to fellow characters but for some strange reason, they're never seen by the viewers outside of perhaps A Day in the Limelight episode"
YGO is a shonen battle anime, in which the fights are card-game duels. Most of these examples include characters that have strong reputations in dueling, but they always fail miserably. They even get the "Talents and skills are well known to fellow characters but they're never seen outside of perhaps a Day in the Limelight episode", which is particularly glaring with Rio Kamishiro, who only got a character focus episode before going back to serving as a source of character drama for Shark.
Addendum: It seems like Jack Pot 21 has already had multiple issues through the wiki by attempting to tweak Yu-Gi-Oh pages to show what only he thinks are valid examples despite evidence to the contrary, which I believe is something that should be taken into account here.
Edited by Edgar81539Bleach YMMV folders Anime
Remind me if YMMV.Bleach being sorted by characters is because of some organizational decision, as it's the only page I've ever seen like this.
Edited by AmonimusIs Gundam IBO too dark and gritty? Anime
Ok, I gotta ask: does Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans truly qualify for Too Bleak, Stopped Caring? TBSC is normally defined as either "both sides are either equally unlikeable (pedophiliac serial killer vs genocidal slave trader" or "the heroes' efforts ultimately amount to nothing and the universe still sucks." A story only averts the trope when it features clearly defined heroes and villains and the ending delivers a positive outcome.
TBSC was orignally listed in the show's YMMV page by its original name, "Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy", under the following argument: "By far the worst offender in the entire Gundam franchise, which was already fairly dark to begin with. Detractors point out that it's hard to sympathize with the protagonists, especially Mikazuki, as their actions push them further off the slipper slope. This isn't helped in season 2 where you're required to be ruthless in this society to get ahead. In the final episodes, major characters get killed left and right to the point it stops being dramatic and starts becoming tedious. Not helping matters is that people are comparing it to Zeta and the director's insistence that the entire show is basically a mafia story, NOT a war story.". It was deleted
because the trope required proof of audience apathy.
The YMMV page previously included:
- Eight Deadly Words: Detractors of the series frequently point this out as a problem. With a bleak setting, extremely morally shady characters (especially the main character), even worse villains, and an underdeveloped Big Bad who not only manages to succeed but ends on a high note, it's pretty easy to stop caring about what happens to the characters., but it was deleted
because Eight Deadly Words became a DefinitionOnlyPage.
- Ending Aversion: The outcome of the final episode is extremely divisive, with a pretty vocal segment of the fandom decrying it for feeling that Tekkadan didn't get the payoff they deserved while Rustal, Julietta, Nobliss, and Gjallarhorn in general successfully destroyed Tekkadan and ended on a high note, with only Iok and Nobliss receiving any form of comeuppance that ultimately rings hollow because of the other villains still winning- the way they won also gets accused of being a complete Shoot the Shaggy Dog for the sake of a Gray-and-Grey Morality message. Many who want a sequel for the series tend to request for Rustal and Julieta to get killed and for Gjallarhorn to be destroyed, assuming they don't write a Fix Fic to fulfill the same purpose by having Tekkadan win the Final Battle. The trope was deleted because, supposedly, "the trope is for people avoiding a work because they hear the ending is disappointing, not about people not liking the ending."
It still includes Esoteric Happy Ending with: "While the series portrays the finale as a bittersweet but overall happy ending with Rustal reforming Gjallarhorn and recognizing Martian independence, while Iok and Nobliss Gordon are killed, detractors of the series finale point out that as a member of the previous Gjallarhorn regime, Rustal is at best complicit in or at worst actively responsible for much of the corruption that plagued the organization. Onscreen, he doesn't bat an eye at starting proxy wars, formenting violent rebellions as false flags, and making use of outlawed weapons to achieve his ends. Even with the Seven Stars disbanded, he's managed to hold on to his power by making himself the best possible candidate to be elected to lead Gjallarhorn, and both he and Julietta were willing to side with Nobliss Gordon, of all people. As a result, the detractors see him as carrying on old Gjallarhorn's corrupt practices while propping up a public facade of being a reformer."
The show's anime page includes tropes like:
- The Bad Guy Wins: Although Gjallarhorn is heavily reformed by the end of the series, there is little doubt that throughout the series they are the villains, and were fighting to remain the authority in the world. Tekkaden was simply trying to find a place to belong in the world, which put them in direct opposition to Gjallarhorn by necessity rather than any actual enmity at first. It's made clear that there are still elements of resentment on both sides by the series end though, particularly in light of the look of anger and distrust that Eugene sends Julietta's way. This makes sense when you remember Julietta, a devoted, borderline fanatical follower of Rustal Elion, is the one who murdered Mikazuki on the battlefield. Julietta doesn't miss it, or its implications, either.
- Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism: Very cynical. For starters, the protagonist is a Sociopathic Hero who kills without remorse. The main characters are a group of Child Soldiers who see nothing wrong with their profession, fighting an all-powerful army that oppresses the masses through bureaucracy and military intervention. Both sides kill each other in the most brutal and painful ways, with no hope for peace or reconcilation. The ending implies things will be much better, but by that point, so much blood has been shed.
So, what do you think?
BTW, I also asked this question in Is this an example? to get a proper consensus.
Best way to split a page? Anime
I've been thinking about splitting LightNovel.Slayers into separate articles for anime and light novels, and setting up a franchise page (there's a page for a spin-off game, and after the split there will be three mediums). However, the series suffers from some serious Continuity Snarl, and I'm unsure how to split it. To elaborate, the so-to-say, "core part" of the series consists of:
- A set of 17 "mainline" novels
- An anime that adapts first 8 of these novels
- Three original anime seasons
The best I came up with is to leave novels-only tropes on the existing page, move anime-only tropes to their own pages, and move universal tropes (applying to the first 8 novels or 2 first seasons of anime) to the franchise page. Would it be the right course of actions?
Edited by VeriamoKaguya-sama Love Is War Franchise Original Sin. Just A Question? Anime
I like to know the reason why are the "fans" are so upset about something like this?
Franchise Original Sin: Kaguya and Shirogane having sex, played entirely for laughs was the last straw for many fans who were unhappy with the humor of the series gradually getting lewder, that the author had gone back on his word of the series not needing Fanservice to instead chase the lowest common denominator. Actually, the early series was hardly 100% clean and wholesome—for instance, a fan favorite gag from the first few chapters revolves around Kaguya struggling not to laugh whenever she hears a word she mistakes to mean "penis"—but in those early jokes the sexual content were framing devices for the actual jokes, based more on character personality: in that case, the actual punchline was seeing the normally stoic Kaguya degenerating into giggling fits about something that really shouldn't be so funny to anyone above elementary school-age. Later jokes dismiss with that and just have the sex itself be the joke—an early foreshadowing to the Kaguya/Shirogane joke that pissed the fanbase off can be found in the Running Gag concerning Tsubasa and Nagisa's relationshipnote specifically, that they're always barely able to avoid being caught having sex in public.
If anything, be feeling honest, there's absolutely nothing wrong about them having sex even if its played for humor. Please give me a proper explanation?
Edited by Droid098Naruto Unintentionally Unsympathetic Anime
Copying this from the Unintentionally Unsympathetic cleanup thread to give more people a chance to look at this.
- I would like to bring up the following entries from the Anime & Manga subpage of Unintentionally Unsympathetic to see which of these examples are valid or not. I'm not exactly familiar with the material so anyone who knows about the entries can help, thanks.
- Naruto:
- Sasuke Uchiha rapidly becomes this as the series progresses, at first his Freudian Excuse is very strong i.e. his brother Itachi murdered his parents and his entire clan and he naturally wants Revenge. However that excuse for all Sasuke’s misdeeds stretches thin when he antagonises his allies and dismisses the tragedies of those who have also lost their loved ones compared to his own trauma, Kakashi in particular highlights how selfish Sasuke is as he reveals to him that his loved ones (Obito and Rin) are already dead when Sasuke threatens them. After Sasuke's Face–Heel Turn it becomes even harder to sympathise with him as he betrays the village, actively tries to murder his friends, attacks the Kages and generally acts like a terrorist. It comes to the point where the whole cast (except for Naruto, Sakura and Ino) being prepared to bring Sasuke to justice is entirely justified and Naruto’s determination to redeem Sasuke is almost nonsensical. Also Sasuke being as Easily Forgiven in the Distant Finale conflicts matters more as the worst punishment he gets is being “somewhat exiled” from Konoha which is barely a slap on the wrist in the weight of his crimes. If Kakashi calls him out on his actions, isn't that intentional? If it is, cut.
- The backstory of the legendary "Salamander" Hanzo, the ninja against whom the Sannin won their titles by surviving a battle with him sets Hanzo up as a Well-Intentioned Extremist who lost sight of his goals but is honored in defeat by his rival as a man who strove for peace. By starting a lot of wars and turning his homeland into an unlivable hellhole that produced the most psychologically broken, defeated human beings in the series, just because he was arrogant enough to think his strength could unite the world. Most fans still consider Hanzo an utterly unsympathetic character whose violent death at Pain's hands was richly deserved, as his claim of good intentions didn't make him any less of a paranoid warmongering dictator. How is he supposed to be sympathetic?
- Sakura Haruno's angst over her Single-Target Sexuality - the aforementioned Sasuke - really makes her unsympathetic in many viewer’s eyes. Kishimoto claimed in interviews he tried to make her feelings for Sasuke as “realistic” as possible but that falls flat as in the manga she hasn’t even had a proper conversation with him, and when she did talk to him he just called her annoying (even after she told him she loved him and was willingly to ditch her peaceful life just to be with him) and knocked her out. After the Time Skip she mellows out... until Sasuke comes back into the story and she Took a Level in Dumbass trying to take Sasuke down herself and of course fails, requiring Kakashi and Naruto to save her ass from the boy she loves. The Final Battle and Distant Finale makes it worse as Sakura easily forgives Sasuke for trying to kill her multiple times, and she settles down and marries him having learned no lesson whatsoever. Also Kishimoto’s insistence that Sakura would be a “terrible woman” if she moved on from Sasuke didn’t help matters. Unsure on this one, if it is a valid example, it could use a rewrite to cut on the complaining.
- Tobi AKA Obito Uchiha. He's supposed to be a world-weary counterpart to the protagonist who has given up hope on any chance of world peace, preferring to put everyone in a Lotus-Eater Machine where they can escape all the problems of reality. Instead, many saw him as a whiny Manchild who can't get over Rin's death. Seems valid, though maybe revise the second sentence
- The way Utakata's master Harusame tries to extract the Tailed Beast from his disciple in an anime-only Filler is supposed to be seen as good intentions to the point that upon realizing this, Utakata eventually rebuilt the pedestal with him after accidentally killing him. The problem is, extracting the Bijuu from a Jinchuuriki will also directly kill the host, and with no indication of Utakata having trouble with his Bijuu, nor even knowing why his master does it in the first place against his will, it comes off as Harusame crossing the Moral Event Horizon with Utakata having every right to defy his master and killing him sounds more like a Kick the Son of a Bitch than what is supposed to be. Maybe?
- Madara Uchiha, the Big Bad of the story. He’s apparently meant to be seen as someone who was forced to grow up in a ninja world full of war, and is just trying to create a utopia so his dreams of peace can become reality. This is all well and good, if you forget that the story shows that he and his former friend, Hashirama, managed to accomplish peace with the creation of the Hidden Leaf Village. Hell, Hashirama even tries to make him leader of that new village, but Madara refuses. It’s even harder for viewers to see him as someone who wants peace at any cost due to his obvious glee before every battle. Add that to fact that a part of his Start of Darkness is caused by him wanting to remake the world in his image, even screwing over his best friend to do so, and this makes him come across not as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but more of a hypocritical Jerkass. Unsure on this one
- Boruto Uzumaki, Naruto and Hinata's son. It's hard to sympathize with the boy who only wanted his father to come home when he is as bad (if not worse) than Naruto during his childhood. Unlike Naruto, Boruto doesn't have a crappy childhood but takes it all for granted and does the same antics his father used to do, all so his father can pay more attention to him. He keeps calling his father a bad parent, going as far as to wish he was dead and is unable to understand other people's feelings (such as complaining that his father is never around in front of Sarada, whose father was never with her for her whole life). And when Naruto finally spends some time with him, he ignores him and brushes away his affections. Maybe?
Seasonal Rot in Date A Live? Anime
In order to avoid an Edit War, I want to decide once and for all whether or not seasons 2 and 3 of Date A Live can be considered Seasonal Rot. The entries are as follows:
- The second anime season usually gets called out for this due to the rushed pacing of the Miku / Dark Tohka arc. The animation
◊ wasn't exactly top-notch at this point either.
- The third season gets even more flak for its often subpar art and animation, and pacing issues reaching a nadir in the Volume 12 adaptation getting squeezed entirely into the final episode and leaving out major plot points for the future.
I deleted it because, as far as I understood, Seasonal Rot "refers to one particular season of a show that is judged in hindsight to be markedly inferior to other seasons. Way too many people are using the term to mean "I don't like the current season." It also does not mean "got less good over time," which is Jump the Shark."
K Oman added the entries back because, according to him, "both of these seem like actual cases of "markedly inferior".
I'm no expert in gauging the quality of TV seasons, but last time I checked, seasons 2 and 3 didn't destroy Date A Live. Sure, the quality dipped in certain aspects like animation and pacing, but if you visit websites like Anime News Network, MyAnimeList and Reddit, you will find largely positive opinions of those seasons. Season 3 gets criticized for compressing the entirety of an entire light novel volume into a single episode, but it still gets praise for its character writing, especially during Origami's story arc.
So, what do you say?
Characters / Lupin III Crisis In Tokyo Anime
This page was cut even though I had redirected it to no longer be orphaned from its main work
12-Episode Anime: still tropeworthy? Anime
I’ve been concerned about 12-Episode Anime for a while now. There are two major issues that caught my attention.
First, I’m wondering whether it’s still tropeworthy in the first place. I suspect this is a very old page, especially since the description mentions the Spring and Fall anime seasons being much more important than Summer and Winter, which was once true but hasn’t really been the case for ~15 years now. There was a time when most new TV anime that weren’t open-ended serials had a standard length of 24-26 episodes, and 12 episode anime in that era were something of a novelty. But things have changed especially over the last decade or so, to the point where almost all new TV anime are being made 12 episodes at a time now, even the ones that are renewed for multiple seasons. So a 12-episode anime in the 2020s is effectively PSOC, nothing notable at all because it’s evolved into the industry standard. If anyone cared enough to add every new 12 episode series that premiered every season we’d be adding over 100 new anime to the page every year.
Second, even if everyone decides the concept itself is still a valid trope, the vast majority of the examples on the page are ZCE, and most of the examples that do have a description are in the ”Given More Seasons” and “Unusual Cases” folders, which are essentially the aversions.
Deleted redirects Anime
Anime.Pokemon Advanced Generation and Anime.Pokemon Best Wishes were cut for being unused with no inbounds, but I thought we should keep redirects for valid alternate titles to aid in searching. May I restore the redirects?
Western Naming Anime
Sammy Tommy insists that we should call Characters.Spy X Family Eden Academy "Eden College", but I thought we went according to Western naming customs where applicable, and they appear to have been changing instances of "Eden Academy" to "Eden College" without apparent thread consensus.
I changed it to Eden Academy per the Shonen Jump translation. Technically I am not edit warring, since I don't believe I created the page or header, but I want to avoid one.
Code Geass Valid MEH? Anime
Copying this since I'm waiting for a response in the Moral Event Horizon cleanup thread
Found this on the Anime & Manga subpage of Moral Event Horizon. The entry is for Code Geass
- Schniezel crosses this when he leads Nina to believe that building FLEIJA would fulfill Euphemia's wishes, which directly leads to Nina's (arguable) crossing when she actually builds the damn thing! And before that, Nina nearly attempted to suicide-nuke the city to call out Zero for Euphemia's death. Yes, she's grieving, but planning to wipe out everyone, including your classmates, with nuclear annihilation is when you've just gone too far.
Renaming as redirect Anime
I want to rename Yuusha ga Shinda! to The Legendary Hero Is Dead! since that's the official English title, the title used on Wikipedia, and the name of the upcoming adaptation. I don't think changing the wicks would be difficult since there's only 18. However, I can't move the page content to a new page since the one I want is already a redirect.
Pronoun inconsistency Anime
Kyubey's section in the Puella Magi Madoka Magica character page has a few inconcsistencies with the pronouns used for him. Most sections use he/him, while some use they/them or it/its.
There's also the following example:
- Heel–Face Turn: This is very unusually subverted for many reasons. The first one is that following Madoka's wish and the rewriting of reality, he/they no longer needs to be a manipulative mastermind. Secondly he/they doesn't change in the slightest, he/they just doesn't have the motivation in this world. Thirdly he ultimately chooses to re-rewrite reality anyway out of greed in the movie and goes back to their old scheming ways.
And this:
- Your Approval Fills Me with Shame: Gives one on occasion, as far as he/she/it can actually express approval. The one he's speaking with definitely feels shame as a result.
In the anime, Kyubey refers to himself with "boku", and English supplementary material refers to Kyubey with he/him pronouns.
What do we do?
Edited by YuriHaru567Edit War on VisualNovel.YosugaNoSora Anime
Earlier Dezz Marie 95 added a What an Idiot! example to the page. My first instinct was to remove it because What an Idiot! is Flame Bait, but I stopped myself because the example seemed VERY familiar. Checking the page history I saw that Dezz Marie 95 had already added the exact same example three weeks ago (with a small follow-up edit to add extra formatting), but the previous time it was under Too Dumb to Live. I was the one that removed it at the time, with my reason being that Too Dumb to Live is a death trope and so the example did not fit.
Since it is the exact same example, even if the trope name is different, I'd like permission to remove it again, just to be on the safe side and not run afoul of the Edit War rules.
Edit war on Sonic X? Anime
On April 16, Tylerbear 12 removed an Audience-Alienating Era entry was removed from YMMV.Sonic X for being misuse. However, The Super Blackwing 1 unilaterally readded the example (with an extra sentence) three days later
.
Of note is that The Super Blackwing 1 had previously been reported for an incident surrounding this work here.
Big Damn Heroes awareness Anime
Do people need to be aware of the hero's Big Damn Heroes moment? In Welcome to Demon School! Iruma-kun first season end, Iruma uses his magic to launch a bomb about to explode up away from the school and breaks a barrier around the school. The bomb then detonates and releases the fireworks inside the bomb (it was originally a firework's shell but amped up by powerful magic). The students are in awe of the explosion and find it beautiful. No one, even the teachers, were aware of the full danger everyone was in.
Anime vs. Manga title Anime
So we have a page for Manga.Super Gals, but apparently the manga's title is Gals!, and Super Gals is the title used for the anime adaptation. Since the page seems to be mostly refer to the manga, should it be moved to Manga.Gals?
Edited by Adept
Sort-of justifying edit? Anime
It's an old issue but this might be worth discussing. A while ago, I added a Sequelitis entry on YMMV.Kengan Ashura regarding its sequel, Kengan Omega:
Then, someone added this bit to the entry:
Now I based my initial entry from the comments in the Discord server, which seems to be unanimous in their call that the previous series is better, but admittedly the group is quite small so I don't know how representative their opinions are to the fandom as a whole. AFAIK, the sequel well-liked enough in public, but being well-liked doesn't necessarily mean it's not inferior to the predecessor, so I don't know what the consensus is when it comes to comparing Ashura vs. Omega.
Although the fact that the sequel is still running means that opinions regarding the (second) series as a whole might be liable to change in the future. Should the entry just be removed and wait until it's over to get more accurate opinions?