Ask The Tropers

Sort-of justifying edit? Anime

It's an old issue but this might be worth discussing. A while ago, I added a Sequelitis entry on YMMV.Kengan Ashura regarding its sequel, Kengan Omega:

• Sequelitis: Kengan Omega is considered to be a major step-down from its predecessor, especially once its main Tournament Arc begins. Reasons cited for this downgrade includes: the existence of the "Purgatory Rules", which allows numerous Purgatory fighters to "win on technicality" against the Kengan fighters rather than their own strength, leading to their Memetic Loser status. The 13 vs. 13 fighter format also prevents any character from developing any sort of meaningful arc, which exacerbates the They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character problem from Ashura.

Then, someone added this bit to the entry:

• Sequelitis: Kengan Omega is considered to be a major step-down from its predecessor by an extremely vocal minority, especially once its main Tournament Arc begins. Reasons cited for this downgrade includes: the existence of the "Purgatory Rules", which allows numerous Purgatory fighters to "win on technicality" against the Kengan fighters rather than their own strength, leading to their Memetic Loser status. The 13 vs. 13 fighter format also prevents any character from developing any sort of meaningful arc, which exacerbates the They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character problem from Ashura.

Now I based my initial entry from the comments in the Discord server, which seems to be unanimous in their call that the previous series is better, but admittedly the group is quite small so I don't know how representative their opinions are to the fandom as a whole. AFAIK, the sequel well-liked enough in public, but being well-liked doesn't necessarily mean it's not inferior to the predecessor, so I don't know what the consensus is when it comes to comparing Ashura vs. Omega.

Although the fact that the sequel is still running means that opinions regarding the (second) series as a whole might be liable to change in the future. Should the entry just be removed and wait until it's over to get more accurate opinions?

Faux Action Girls in Yu-Gi-Oh! Anime

Jack Pot 21 has been continuously removing the Faux Action Girl entries in the different Yu-Gi-Oh! pages throughout the years, even after multiple users have been re-editing, providing justifications and reworking entries so that they show what the trope entails.

Jack Pot 21 has been removing any entries regarding the franchise since some years ago with many shifting justifications. First it was that the entries centered around winrates; then when the entries were adjusted to not focus on winrates, he added the justification that "examples for this entry can be very subjective", but I can't help but feel that this is agenda-driven edition, and that he feels that the entries are attacks on the characters themselves rather than assessments of how the (male) staff has issues writing women, which is something that the YGO fanbase has acknowledged over and over.

Also, I quote one of the opening statements in the Faux Action Girl definition

"She has a well-grounded reputation as a strong fighter in her field but always fails miserably in the line of battle. Her talents and skills are well-known to fellow characters but for some strange reason, they're never seen by the viewers outside of perhaps A Day in the Limelight episode"

YGO is a shonen battle anime, in which the fights are card-game duels. Most of these examples include characters that have strong reputations in dueling, but they always fail miserably. They even get the "Talents and skills are well known to fellow characters but they're never seen outside of perhaps a Day in the Limelight episode", which is particularly glaring with Rio Kamishiro, who only got a character focus episode before going back to serving as a source of character drama for Shark.

Addendum: It seems like Jack Pot 21 has already had multiple issues through the wiki by attempting to tweak Yu-Gi-Oh pages to show what only he thinks are valid examples despite evidence to the contrary, which I believe is something that should be taken into account here.

Bleach YMMV folders Anime

Remind me if YMMV.Bleach being sorted by characters is because of some organizational decision, as it's the only page I've ever seen like this.

Is Gundam IBO too dark and gritty? Anime

Ok, I gotta ask: does Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans truly qualify for Too Bleak, Stopped Caring? TBSC is normally defined as either "both sides are either equally unlikeable (pedophiliac serial killer vs genocidal slave trader" or "the heroes' efforts ultimately amount to nothing and the universe still sucks." A story only averts the trope when it features clearly defined heroes and villains and the ending delivers a positive outcome.

TBSC was orignally listed in the show's YMMV page by its original name, "Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy", under the following argument: "By far the worst offender in the entire Gundam franchise, which was already fairly dark to begin with. Detractors point out that it's hard to sympathize with the protagonists, especially Mikazuki, as their actions push them further off the slipper slope. This isn't helped in season 2 where you're required to be ruthless in this society to get ahead. In the final episodes, major characters get killed left and right to the point it stops being dramatic and starts becoming tedious. Not helping matters is that people are comparing it to Zeta and the director's insistence that the entire show is basically a mafia story, NOT a war story.". It was deleted because the trope required proof of audience apathy.

The YMMV page previously included:

• Eight Deadly Words: Detractors of the series frequently point this out as a problem. With a bleak setting, extremely morally shady characters (especially the main character), even worse villains, and an underdeveloped Big Bad who not only manages to succeed but ends on a high note, it's pretty easy to stop caring about what happens to the characters., but it was deleted because Eight Deadly Words became a DefinitionOnlyPage.
• Ending Aversion: The outcome of the final episode is extremely divisive, with a pretty vocal segment of the fandom decrying it for feeling that Tekkadan didn't get the payoff they deserved while Rustal, Julietta, Nobliss, and Gjallarhorn in general successfully destroyed Tekkadan and ended on a high note, with only Iok and Nobliss receiving any form of comeuppance that ultimately rings hollow because of the other villains still winning- the way they won also gets accused of being a complete Shoot the Shaggy Dog for the sake of a Gray-and-Grey Morality message. Many who want a sequel for the series tend to request for Rustal and Julieta to get killed and for Gjallarhorn to be destroyed, assuming they don't write a Fix Fic to fulfill the same purpose by having Tekkadan win the Final Battle. The trope was deleted because, supposedly, "the trope is for people avoiding a work because they hear the ending is disappointing, not about people not liking the ending."

It still includes Esoteric Happy Ending with: "While the series portrays the finale as a bittersweet but overall happy ending with Rustal reforming Gjallarhorn and recognizing Martian independence, while Iok and Nobliss Gordon are killed, detractors of the series finale point out that as a member of the previous Gjallarhorn regime, Rustal is at best complicit in or at worst actively responsible for much of the corruption that plagued the organization. Onscreen, he doesn't bat an eye at starting proxy wars, formenting violent rebellions as false flags, and making use of outlawed weapons to achieve his ends. Even with the Seven Stars disbanded, he's managed to hold on to his power by making himself the best possible candidate to be elected to lead Gjallarhorn, and both he and Julietta were willing to side with Nobliss Gordon, of all people. As a result, the detractors see him as carrying on old Gjallarhorn's corrupt practices while propping up a public facade of being a reformer."

The show's anime page includes tropes like:

• The Bad Guy Wins: Although Gjallarhorn is heavily reformed by the end of the series, there is little doubt that throughout the series they are the villains, and were fighting to remain the authority in the world. Tekkaden was simply trying to find a place to belong in the world, which put them in direct opposition to Gjallarhorn by necessity rather than any actual enmity at first. It's made clear that there are still elements of resentment on both sides by the series end though, particularly in light of the look of anger and distrust that Eugene sends Julietta's way. This makes sense when you remember Julietta, a devoted, borderline fanatical follower of Rustal Elion, is the one who murdered Mikazuki on the battlefield. Julietta doesn't miss it, or its implications, either.
• Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism: Very cynical. For starters, the protagonist is a Sociopathic Hero who kills without remorse. The main characters are a group of Child Soldiers who see nothing wrong with their profession, fighting an all-powerful army that oppresses the masses through bureaucracy and military intervention. Both sides kill each other in the most brutal and painful ways, with no hope for peace or reconcilation. The ending implies things will be much better, but by that point, so much blood has been shed.

So, what do you think?

BTW, I also asked this question in Is this an example? to get a proper consensus.

Best way to split a page? Anime

I've been thinking about splitting LightNovel.Slayers into separate articles for anime and light novels, and setting up a franchise page (there's a page for a spin-off game, and after the split there will be three mediums). However, the series suffers from some serious Continuity Snarl, and I'm unsure how to split it. To elaborate, the so-to-say, "core part" of the series consists of:

• A set of 17 "mainline" novels
• An anime that adapts first 8 of these novels
• Three original anime seasons

The best I came up with is to leave novels-only tropes on the existing page, move anime-only tropes to their own pages, and move universal tropes (applying to the first 8 novels or 2 first seasons of anime) to the franchise page. Would it be the right course of actions?

Kaguya-sama Love Is War Franchise Original Sin. Just A Question? Anime

I like to know the reason why are the "fans" are so upset about something like this?

Franchise Original Sin: Kaguya and Shirogane having sex, played entirely for laughs was the last straw for many fans who were unhappy with the humor of the series gradually getting lewder, that the author had gone back on his word of the series not needing Fanservice to instead chase the lowest common denominator. Actually, the early series was hardly 100% clean and wholesome—for instance, a fan favorite gag from the first few chapters revolves around Kaguya struggling not to laugh whenever she hears a word she mistakes to mean "penis"—but in those early jokes the sexual content were framing devices for the actual jokes, based more on character personality: in that case, the actual punchline was seeing the normally stoic Kaguya degenerating into giggling fits about something that really shouldn't be so funny to anyone above elementary school-age. Later jokes dismiss with that and just have the sex itself be the joke—an early foreshadowing to the Kaguya/Shirogane joke that pissed the fanbase off can be found in the Running Gag concerning Tsubasa and Nagisa's relationshipnote specifically, that they're always barely able to avoid being caught having sex in public.

If anything, be feeling honest, there's absolutely nothing wrong about them having sex even if its played for humor. Please give me a proper explanation?

Naruto Unintentionally Unsympathetic Anime

Copying this from the Unintentionally Unsympathetic cleanup thread to give more people a chance to look at this.

• I would like to bring up the following entries from the Anime & Manga subpage of Unintentionally Unsympathetic to see which of these examples are valid or not. I'm not exactly familiar with the material so anyone who knows about the entries can help, thanks.

Seasonal Rot in Date A Live? Anime

In order to avoid an Edit War, I want to decide once and for all whether or not seasons 2 and 3 of Date A Live can be considered Seasonal Rot. The entries are as follows:

• The second anime season usually gets called out for this due to the rushed pacing of the Miku / Dark Tohka arc. The animation◊ wasn't exactly top-notch at this point either.
• The third season gets even more flak for its often subpar art and animation, and pacing issues reaching a nadir in the Volume 12 adaptation getting squeezed entirely into the final episode and leaving out major plot points for the future.

I deleted it because, as far as I understood, Seasonal Rot "refers to one particular season of a show that is judged in hindsight to be markedly inferior to other seasons. Way too many people are using the term to mean "I don't like the current season." It also does not mean "got less good over time," which is Jump the Shark."

K Oman added the entries back because, according to him, "both of these seem like actual cases of "markedly inferior".

I'm no expert in gauging the quality of TV seasons, but last time I checked, seasons 2 and 3 didn't destroy Date A Live. Sure, the quality dipped in certain aspects like animation and pacing, but if you visit websites like Anime News Network, MyAnimeList and Reddit, you will find largely positive opinions of those seasons. Season 3 gets criticized for compressing the entirety of an entire light novel volume into a single episode, but it still gets praise for its character writing, especially during Origami's story arc.

So, what do you say?

Characters / Lupin III Crisis In Tokyo Anime

This page was cut even though I had redirected it to no longer be orphaned from its main work

12-Episode Anime: still tropeworthy? Anime

I’ve been concerned about 12-Episode Anime for a while now. There are two major issues that caught my attention.

First, I’m wondering whether it’s still tropeworthy in the first place. I suspect this is a very old page, especially since the description mentions the Spring and Fall anime seasons being much more important than Summer and Winter, which was once true but hasn’t really been the case for ~15 years now. There was a time when most new TV anime that weren’t open-ended serials had a standard length of 24-26 episodes, and 12 episode anime in that era were something of a novelty. But things have changed especially over the last decade or so, to the point where almost all new TV anime are being made 12 episodes at a time now, even the ones that are renewed for multiple seasons. So a 12-episode anime in the 2020s is effectively PSOC, nothing notable at all because it’s evolved into the industry standard. If anyone cared enough to add every new 12 episode series that premiered every season we’d be adding over 100 new anime to the page every year.

Second, even if everyone decides the concept itself is still a valid trope, the vast majority of the examples on the page are ZCE, and most of the examples that do have a description are in the ”Given More Seasons” and “Unusual Cases” folders, which are essentially the aversions.

Deleted redirects Anime

Anime.Pokemon Advanced Generation and Anime.Pokemon Best Wishes were cut for being unused with no inbounds, but I thought we should keep redirects for valid alternate titles to aid in searching. May I restore the redirects?

Western Naming Anime

Sammy Tommy insists that we should call Characters.Spy X Family Eden Academy "Eden College", but I thought we went according to Western naming customs where applicable, and they appear to have been changing instances of "Eden Academy" to "Eden College" without apparent thread consensus.

I changed it to Eden Academy per the Shonen Jump translation. Technically I am not edit warring, since I don't believe I created the page or header, but I want to avoid one.

Code Geass Valid MEH? Anime

Copying this since I'm waiting for a response in the Moral Event Horizon cleanup thread

Found this on the Anime & Manga subpage of Moral Event Horizon. The entry is for Code Geass

• Schniezel crosses this when he leads Nina to believe that building FLEIJA would fulfill Euphemia's wishes, which directly leads to Nina's (arguable) crossing when she actually builds the damn thing! And before that, Nina nearly attempted to suicide-nuke the city to call out Zero for Euphemia's death. Yes, she's grieving, but planning to wipe out everyone, including your classmates, with nuclear annihilation is when you've just gone too far.

Renaming as redirect Anime

I want to rename Yuusha ga Shinda! to The Legendary Hero Is Dead! since that's the official English title, the title used on Wikipedia, and the name of the upcoming adaptation. I don't think changing the wicks would be difficult since there's only 18. However, I can't move the page content to a new page since the one I want is already a redirect.

Pronoun inconsistency Anime

Kyubey's section in the Puella Magi Madoka Magica character page has a few inconcsistencies with the pronouns used for him. Most sections use he/him, while some use they/them or it/its.

There's also the following example:

Heel–Face Turn: This is very unusually subverted for many reasons. The first one is that following Madoka's wish and the rewriting of reality, he/they no longer needs to be a manipulative mastermind. Secondly he/they doesn't change in the slightest, he/they just doesn't have the motivation in this world. Thirdly he ultimately chooses to re-rewrite reality anyway out of greed in the movie and goes back to their old scheming ways.

And this:

Your Approval Fills Me with Shame: Gives one on occasion, as far as he/she/it can actually express approval. The one he's speaking with definitely feels shame as a result.

In the anime, Kyubey refers to himself with "boku", and English supplementary material refers to Kyubey with he/him pronouns.

What do we do?

Edit War on VisualNovel.YosugaNoSora Anime

Earlier Dezz Marie 95 added a What an Idiot! example to the page. My first instinct was to remove it because What an Idiot! is Flame Bait, but I stopped myself because the example seemed VERY familiar. Checking the page history I saw that Dezz Marie 95 had already added the exact same example three weeks ago (with a small follow-up edit to add extra formatting), but the previous time it was under Too Dumb to Live. I was the one that removed it at the time, with my reason being that Too Dumb to Live is a death trope and so the example did not fit.

Since it is the exact same example, even if the trope name is different, I'd like permission to remove it again, just to be on the safe side and not run afoul of the Edit War rules.

Edit war on Sonic X? Anime

On April 16, Tylerbear 12 removed an Audience-Alienating Era entry was removed from YMMV.Sonic X for being misuse. However, The Super Blackwing 1 unilaterally readded the example (with an extra sentence) three days later.

Of note is that The Super Blackwing 1 had previously been reported for an incident surrounding this work here.

Big Damn Heroes awareness Anime

Do people need to be aware of the hero's Big Damn Heroes moment? In Welcome to Demon School! Iruma-kun first season end, Iruma uses his magic to launch a bomb about to explode up away from the school and breaks a barrier around the school. The bomb then detonates and releases the fireworks inside the bomb (it was originally a firework's shell but amped up by powerful magic). The students are in awe of the explosion and find it beautiful. No one, even the teachers, were aware of the full danger everyone was in.

Anime vs. Manga title Anime

So we have a page for Manga.Super Gals, but apparently the manga's title is Gals!, and Super Gals is the title used for the anime adaptation. Since the page seems to be mostly refer to the manga, should it be moved to Manga.Gals?