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openSuper Complaint Edit on So Bad Its Good Anime
- Anata To Scandal has some golden moments here and there but it's problem is that the story doesn't seem to know what it wants to be. Tomoka is your Ordinary High-School Student piano genius who sees a Bishōnen every day on the train to school and has fallen in love with him. One day her friends notice that this crush has gone to Stalker with a Crush levels as she has brought a camera to school and is going to secretly take a picture next time she sees him. That afternoon a man gropes her and she's saved by another Bishōnen in front of her crush and after police arrest the man and the boys leave on the next train she takes a picture of her crush. Later she goes to a party and the boys are members of the band playing there. They recognize her and stamp her a pervert, she gets drunk, and finds out that her crush is in fact a Bifauxnen, but her feelings doesn't disappear and her Childhood Friend falls in love with her. So our now Bi The Way heroine finds the thought of others being lesbian gross yet still has no problem being one herself. The other band members fall for her making it an awkward Love Dodecahedron. The Bifauxnen is seemingly asexual, but starts falling for her twice as old fiance after he kept her captive for a few days. It keeps on going back on forth whether it wants to be a Yuri Genre or not making it a mess of Unfortunate Implications that unintentionally Crosses the Line Twice that one might keep on reading wondering "how will this mess end?!". Tomoka herself is an unlikeable character who is supposed to be a Spoiled Sweet character but ends up with a weird mix of wangst and gayngst and is seemingly a Sociopath.
This is definitely not a kosher edit... OR IS IT? Because as its stands is REALLY whiny and not what the trope is about at all.
resolved Living Macguffin or...?
I'm a little confused about this trope and how given that it's supposed to be a macguffin made into a person (which to my understanding seems like a person whose only purpose is to move the plot ...and not much of anything else), which means that there should be a difference between this trope and say... Apocalypse Maiden, The Chosen One, or Sealed Inside a Person-Shaped Can
I understand how overlap is possible but when does a character go from being a mere Living MacGuffin to any of these other tropes about a character relevant to the plot in one way or another? Or are ALL of those characters inherent macguffins? I mean since the trope itself is divided into more categories -some of which feel either really narrow or way too broad - and the main page description mentions the chosen one trope and at no point makes the distinction about the whole thing.
EDIT:
@Xtifr: Thank you for the answer, but now I see that I need to clarify a little more:
I know that in the most basic level Living MacGuffin has little if any to do with the tropes I listed before, my confusion comes from the fact that in the Macguffin page we have this laconic description:
An object that, while not relevant to the main narrative, is frequently pursued throughout it.
Whereas the Living MacGuffin has this one:
A plot object that is a person.
So, follwing these thread, my question basically boils down to this: In a narrative context, when or how does a character stop being a Living MacGuffin? For example you said that this person's value is determined more by other characters and how much they pursue it rather than for the overall plot right? So this character could be a princess or a diplomat who at the end of the day doesn't not accomplish much but their purpose to the story is met for the simple fact that they are wanted people in the setting right? But a character with an established personality who happens to grab the Distress Ball is not right? Or a character who is The Heart of the team and is pursued for their importance to the main characters, or ( sorry I swear this is the last example) an established character (with personality, motives and connections to other characters) who is pursued by some unknown attribute that for a while is not specified to the audience so for a while they are indeed a Macguffin of sorts, their pursue fuels the plot at least half of the time, and at some point their importance in indeed a pivotal part of the Bad Guy's evil plot? Are they still a Living MacGuffin?
Hope this is not too convoluted or something.
Edited by RoseBrideopenCan SisterTropes all be SuperTropes of the same SubTrope?
There's a TLP entry (Yellow Is Heroic) that states it is "A Super-Trope to Primary-Color Champion". My knee-jerk reaction was that this was wrong—I think of the Super-Trope, Sister Trope, and Sub-Trope distinctions as being a "tree" structure, where one Super-Trope can have multiple direct Sub Tropes (Sister Tropes to one another), but each group of Sister Tropes would have only one direct Super-Trope. This understanding is supported by the description of The Same But More Specific, which says that a Sub-Trope is something that is The Same But More Specific of the Super-Trope and serves a distinct narrative function.
However, upon digging around, I found that the existing trope Red Is Heroic makes the same claim about being "a" Super-Trope to Primary-Color Champion, while Primary-Color Champion itself states that it is a "A Sub-Trope of Good Colors, Evil Colors, Red Is Heroic and Blue Is Heroic." By contrast, Blue Is Heroic says "A Sub-Trope of Good Colors, Evil Colors. When Blue Is Heroic and Red Is Heroic are both applied to the same character you get a Primary-Color Champion."
To me, the description under Blue Is Heroic is the one that makes sense with the way I think of Super Tropes. Blue Is Heroic, Red Is Heroic, and Primary-Color Champion would all be Sub Tropes of Good Colors, Evil Colors, but Primary-Color Champion wouldn't be a Sub-Trope of either of the single-color tropes because it has a required element that is not covered either Red Is Heroic or Blue Is Heroic, namely the requirement to feature significant amounts of both red and blue rather than just one of the colors individually.
Which usage of Super Tropes is correct?
openTroper pushing "Frying Dory Collab" Petition
a-wasted-life
has been pushing an agenda recently. They've been editing pages related to YTP creator EmperorLemon and have been posting calls to join a Twitter campaign to make a "Frying Dory" collab, since Emperor Lemon won't make one himself.
openSpoiler Tagging on Wham Shot
Wham Shot has a warning of unmarked spoilers right above the example section, but in the example section itself some examples use spoilers anyway. Should/can I remove those spoiler tags? It just irritates me to see the different examples of the same trope following different protocols.
Edited by OrbitingopenIndexing Character Sub-Sheets
Should supplementary Character Sheets be italicized in indexes? Generally, these sub-sheets are named after characters from a work rather than the work itself, so why should Superman or the protagonists of The Hunger Games be italicized in indexes?
openRashandfierce
What are the odds that Rashandfierce
is not Creator.Sonbreezie? RAF is literally the only person editing Sonbreezie's pages (poorly, I might add. They're putting in waaaaaaaaay too much troping of the artist like they're a fictional character), and have very similar tastes (in both works and fictional crushes).
But troping your own works is fine, the problem is this same person is the only person adding to the YMMV and audience reactions pages.
Honestly, I hope it's the same person because some of the edits come off as overly self-congratulatory if they're the same one, but if they're someone else they're kind of creepy.
Edited by LarkmarnopenNothing to do with Creator Killer? Anime
I'm genuinely confused as to how this doesn't have anything to do with Creator Killer. I mean it, I thought it was an example from the minute I learned of it. Maybe the second half of the example doesn't have anything to do with the trope (and in fact would feel more at home under Old Shame), but I'm positive the first half has at least some link to the trope.
- The screenplay for Pokémon 3 has been blamed for killing series showrunner Takeshi Shudo's career. For him, the way the ending, which was supposed to have been ambiguous, was interpreted by the scriptwriter marked the beginning of the end. For the rest of his life, he had no kind word to say about the movie itself, going on record as saying that were his mother alive and missing he would never have even thought about abducting another's.
openTelevision Is Trying to Kill Us
Asking here before I edit, since apparently the last person got wikistalked.
The page seems to be a random collection of tropes that are supposedly deadly and unrealistic, with a touch of panic, but it's insanely lecture-y, reads like a how-to, has more than a touch of Viewers Are Morons, and a lot of tropes added aren't lethal if repeated, or meant to be. Such as Big Eater, Boom, Headshot!, which appears to be meant to be deadly and lethal, British Royal Guards, which seems less "deadly" and "you'll get your ass kicked" and is demonstrated on the trope page itself, et cetera. There's also YMMV stuff thrown in, like Too Smart for Strangers, which claims this trope makes us blind to any kind of abuse perpetrated by someone the victim knows, et cetera. I'm looking at the edit history and there's something of an effort to make it so only Do Not Try This at Home tropes should be there.
I know the whole 'We Are Not Wikipedia' thing is old hat, but... on top of that, it says on the page "This is an index. A description of why a trope fits here is fine but examples should go on the respective trope pages. Try not to add 300 additional bullet points if it can be helped."
Edited by DimensionalShambleropenMinor edit war and fact-checking issue Live Action TV
The live-action Halo series has released to mixed reviews from fans and critics, so naturally the YMMV page has some entries about the quality of the production. One entry under Special Effects Failure, though, stood out to me as potentially inaccurate, added by Commissar Cain:
- Also in the first episode, Kai shoots an Elite at point-blank range with a plasma pistol. In the following shot, she tosses down what is clearly an unpainted foam or plastic prop, complete with visible mold line.
Now I won't question that it is an example of special effects failure since the prop is visibly different between shots (there's a similar scene where they use a really bad 3D model of a rifle instead of actually throwing the relevant prop on the ground, so it's something of a trend). However looking at the scene in question I wasn't certain that the prop was actually unpainted, and removed that particular part of the entry with the following edit reason:
Now that said, I will correct myself slightly by noting that this is still an inconsistency since the pistol visibly does not get blood splashed on it in the scene before, and I'll admit that it's kind of hard to tell at all even in slow-motion whether it's properly painted or not. Regardless, Commissar Cain has now edit-warred on the matter by restoring the "unpainted" comment without an edit reason.
EDIT: Here's the scene in question
, if anyone wants to take a look and give their opinion. My stance (which I fully admit may just be me seeing things) is that it's supposed to be alien blood (maybe they planned for the gun to get splashed with CGI blood while filming but it changed in post-production?); you can see her index finger and fingertips seem to be stained the same color as the second prop. You can also see that in the first shot the pistol on her hip is covered in dirt while in the second it's clean, which could suggest that this was an issue of stitching together multiple takes, during one of which the prop was covered in dirt.
resolved Tux1
Tux 1
's edits are...kind of odd.
openCritical Role Unfortunate Implications edit
So, there was this edit on the main UI page regarding one of Critical Role's recent campaigns: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.UnfortunateImplications#edit32437068
The person making the edit claims that the poster is the only one who has this complaint, but there's a whole ass Kotaku article about it: https://kotaku.com/critical-role-marquet-third-campaign-asian-cultures-col-1848500055
I don't know if it still falls under UI since CR isn't actually racist or anything (I personally don't see any issue with their campaign), but there was a legitimate controversy. CR themselves actually had to issue a statement. Maybe rewording it to make it more neutral or simply transferring it to the work itself under Broken Base?
openTrope deletions off music creator page
Lord Gro and I have had an amiable PM discussion on a particular topic, though we haven't reached an agreement, and I'd like to bring the matter up for broader discussion. There is a forum thread
here which may apply, but it hasn't be active for a couple weeks now. If the discussion should be moved to the moribund thread, let me know.
This involves the troper's deletions from Creator pages, specifically Johannes Brahms, in which almost all the tropes were cut. I can understand some of the removals, as they referenced Brahms's personal life with no mention of his music or career. Some however involved Brahms's musical career, which I'm not in favor of. Specific examples:
- Eccentric Mentor: Brahms had one in the form of Robert Schumann, although Schumann wasn't so much eccentric as mentally ill, eventually committing himself to a mental hospital after a series of suicide attempts and dying there at the age of 46.
- Flame War: The conflict between Brahms' supporters and Wagner's was a 19th Century version, including over-the-top magazine articles insulting and condemning the other side.
- Mentor Archetype: While on the jury of a composing competition, he saw great promise in a young man named Antonin Dvorak, and arranged a meeting between Dvorak and his own publisher.
- Sacrificed Basic Skill For Awesome Training: Brahms was a professional musician from early youth and it's fair to say that constant hours of playing the piano meant that he wasn't always the most charming and polite person in the room.
- Worthy Opponent: For Brahms it was Richard Wagner, although it's more that their respective fanbases considered each to be the Arch Enemy of the other. Brahms actually liked and admired a lot of Wagner's music, even though he disliked Wagner's cult of personality; Wagner did not exactly return the compliment, but he did send Brahms a copy of Das Rheingold.
Lord Gro's position is based on this page
and this passage was cited from there in the deletion note: "Please resist the urge to apply character tropes to Real Life people."
This is a more restrictive implementation of the approach than I'm comfortable with.
Thoughts:
- there's a possibility that one (or more) of the entries above may cross the line on this issue, but the deletion reason should be different. Okay by me if so. The Sacrificed Basic Skill for Awesome Training example may fall into this category. It's also possible one or more of these veers towards ZCE territory, which I'm happy to try and fix.
- the passage "Resist the urge" is not synonymous with "This is forbidden."
- this approach only leaves the narrow possibility of troping works and nothing else instead of (in this case) music-career-based non-subjective issues, which I would argue are fair game. Without going into detail, that concept was conveyed to me in our PM discussion as to what should be done.
- I'm not clear on what the policy is regarding including Trivia-oriented entries for Creators. Should they be put in at all, and if so, do these go on the main pages or somewhere else? This may involve other cut entries besides the five listed above.
- perhaps a minor point but worth mentioning. Having the approach applied this strictly can result in stripping the Creator pages clean, leading other tropers to delete the pages under the mistaken idea that all pages with few or no tropes should be cutlisted. I've seen examples of this kind of thinking before at the site.
My wish is to reinstate the entries in the first folder. It might not technically be an edit war if I do, but I don't want to do this ill-advisedly.
Thanks!
Edited by BoltDMCopenSelf titled EP Music
I've been thinking of creating a page for a self titled EP by 100 gecs, but the issue is I'm not really sure where that should go since 100 gecs would already be taken by the duo. Would it be a good idea to name it 100 gecs (EP) and then use Wiki Word to turn it into "100 gecs (EP)" or is there a better solution for this?
Edited by Ghilshopen Split Award Bait Song?
I think we're getting a lot of scope drift here. Quickly going through the examples, I see the following major categories:
- Dreaming songs that are actually performed by the film cast within the film. Especially prevalent in Pre-Renaissance Disney films. A lot of these got award nominations, but they weren't "award bait" in the same sense as...
- Romantic ballad covers of songs within the film. Here's where Peabo Bryson and his ilk live. This is what I think the original intention of this trope was. The only pre-Disney Renaissance example I can think of off the top of my head is "Somewhere Out There" from An American Tail.
- Parodies of the Award-Bait Song formula.
- Real singers performing within the movie itself. Disney's Tarzan comes to mind. Not Award-baity in my opinion, just producers afraid of doing a real musical.
- Singles written specifically to win awards with no connection to a film soundtrack (i.e. the "Music" section). All of this is a different trope entirely.
- Songs for stage musicals should be a different page altogether.
- As should the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade and other live performances that aren't traditional concerts.
TLDR; "Won an award" does not mean "award bait." "Main song in a musical" does not mean "award bait."
In my opinion we need a cleanup and split into two pages: "A pop cover of a song within the movie" and "singles written specifically to abuse a formula and win an award, usually for nonmusicals."
Award-Bait Song would probably be the latter, with "Romantic Ballad Cover" or similar for the former.
openweird redirect thing
I'm not sure this is the right forum to ask this, but a few times today, I've been on TV Tropes, only for my browser to automatically redirect me to a "virus scan" website (not always the same one). Obviously not legit. What's weird is that it's only happening on TV Tropes, and I ran a virus scan on my PC (using the software I actually bought, not the sketchy websites) and nothing came up.
Is this happening to anyone else? I'm wondering if something's up with the site itself or if it's just my computer.
openMinimal-effort work page.
The Atomic Time of Monsters seems to be a page for a Kaiju story of some description. I'm not clear on further details because, as can be seen there, the page's contents consist only of a picture and the phrase "This Page is under-development by one person please be patient". It has been worked on by only one editor, Drago491, and has not been edited since June. The page's url also wasn't capitalized properly.
Normally I'd simply say to cut it, but the associated character page has work put into it — the grammar and formatting both have problems and there are several ZCEs, but those are all issues that can be rectified fairly easily assuming some work is put into them. That by itself makes me think that there's probably value in trying to salvage the page instead of just cutting it altogether.
I'm not wholly familiar with the site's policy in this matters, so I thought I'd look for some feedback. What should be done here? The original editor (who I'll contact once I'm finished writing this) obviously has enthusiasm for creating pages, which I think we shouldn't discourage, but evidently something needs to be done to bring the page up to wiki standards.
openDisabled in the Adaptation Entry Question Live Action TV
This is on the Disabled in the Adaptation page. Unmarked spoilers ahead!
- The Walking Dead:
- Two surviving (as of this edit) characters from the source material, Sophia Peletier and Carl Grimes, both die in the show by becoming walkers.
My assumption is that in the show, Sophia becomes a walker and Carl shoots himself in the head to prevent himself from reanimating. And even then, is this really an example since the two characters in the entry clearly don't demonstrate any disabilities while they're alive. Thanks.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
openFirst Person Writing on Rhymes on a Dime
So, in the Real Life section of Rhymes on a Dime, some troper(s) decided to write a couple of examples as a Self-Demonstrating Article:
- Nipsey Russell could pull off a couplet at just the drop of a hat. Name another talented person who could ever do just that.
- Wayne Brady, lady?
- Not just him, but most of the the guests on both versions of Whose Line Is It Anyway? Josie Lawrence was particularly good at this type of play.
- I could argue, I guess, but it's not worth the ink; I'll just say it's not quite as hard as you think.
- If you're a Knick fan, you're used to hearing it from Walt "Clyde" Frasier, man.
Normally I would delete as an instance of First-Person Writing as it is a violation of wiki rules, but in this case it is clearly part of the self-demonstrating style. What should I do?

InterestingCarSalesman added a list of entries to AwesomeMusic.Marvel Cinematic Universe consisting solely of weblinks. I commented them out for falling afoul of the Zero-Context Example and Weblinks Are Not Examples policies. They then uncommented them without expanding them with the edit reason "Don't be a dick. Rather than blanking them out, why not just fill them in yourself?" Which rather seems to miss the point of why the ZCE policy exists.