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Ask the Tropers:
openOverspeculating the Pesticide in Apaches?
I've noticed in the pages for Apaches, the edits there are insistent that the pesticide Sharon drank was a weed killer containing Paraquat. This is never specified in the film itself, and yet tropers like Goji Biscuits are insistent in adding that it "likely contained paraquat" if the recent edits are anything to go by, and the section in the Nightmare Fuel page go into detail on how paraquat kills, even though again, it was never specified to have such.
Is this just a me problem or does this require fixing?
Edited by RedBerryBlueCherryresolved Edit warring on the Voltes V Legacy YMMV page
I removed the Germans Love David Hasselhoff entry over there because apart from being messy and over cluttered like whoever put it there was trying way too hard to prove a point, I looked at the lists and it showed nothing but positive first impressions and the tropers who put it there making assumptions based on those. It's particularly egregious how they even listed individual comments/notes from random individuals and fansubs. I mean, fansubs can simply mean a show has a very small cult following or even just curious individuals who dubbed something for the heck of it. It doesn't prove anything, as far as I'm aware. Even more egregious is the fact that Voltes V Legacy is only seeing what appears to be a dub in Spanish speaking countries, and when I looked at it, it's not even an officially sanctioned dub, just the passion project of a certain few individuals who were fans of the original Voltes V anime and not necessarily the live-action show itself. There's no real evidence that the show became an audience favorite based on those lists.
I'm bringing the issue here because someone who contributed to that entry's list of info decided to readd the deleted entry
after I removed it. I'll concede if the list is enough proof to list as GLDH, but I still would like to hear others' takes on what really counts as proof of a GLDH situation.
resolved Interruption by (possible) Trojan
I'm browsing a page on the site, when suddenly, the tab I'm on changes from TV Tropes to what seems to be a page for Norton Antivirus Software. A popup then appears, showing that apparently, my computer has five computer viruses, and that my Norton contract has expired. But here's the rub; I'm from England, which doesn't have Norton available (as far as I know). So, I do what I always do against potential phishing: turn the computer off and on again with my keyboard, then open Windows Security and run a quick scan (better safe than sorry), before reopening my browser (Google Chrome), restoring my tabs, and quickly closing the "Antivirus" tab before it fully restores itself.
This has happened once in two consecutive days (as of writing). So, my question is: Please can anyone confirm that a) this isn't just a "me" thing, and b) the issue is being dealt with?
resolved Dethroning Moment About Rae Mills
From DethroningMoment.Web Original:
- JEFFWONTLEAVE: I personally think that commentary videos get a bad rep nowadays. They have drastically improved from what they were back in 2011 with much more insight and humor. One prime example of this is Rae Mills, considered by many to be the best one out there. Which makes her DMOS, Response to Mr Enter
even more painful. The video itself could have been better if it was worked into a main commentary on her channel or People who did the B.O.P commentary on Mr.Enter's troll video did the response, but instead it's just a lazy response that come's across as filler for a Massive Multiplayer Crossover channel. But the main issue I had with this video that turned it From Bad to Worse was the last 3 minutes where she tries to come across as The Last DJ who is trying to help save the poor misinformed fans of this horrible person who made a video she hated on youtube instead turned the entire response to a very mean-spirited, arrogant and completely uncalled for rant about Mr.enter. For someone who is well known for being very well reasonable and yet still blunt and to the point, this seemed completely out of character for her and added nothing of value to the commentary. As a person who hated that troll video as much as, if not more so then her, I was completely furious with this video and was considering just giving up on the commentary community all over again, but I decided to give her one more shot and she did win me back. But I'm still not forgiving her for that train wreck any time soon.
For those unaware, Rae has been the subject of quite the bit of controversy since this entry was written (I'd rather not get into it myself). For that reason, I'm wondering what, if anything, should be done with this entry, or if nothing about it should be done. What do you guys think?
Edited by JHD0919openIs Majora's Mask Low Fantasy Videogame
So Majora’s Mask is listed as Low Fantasy, but as a huge Majora’s Mask fan myself, I really think it doesn’t in any way fis Low Fantasy. I’m sure it was deleted in the past, but it looks like it was added back.
The entry claims Magic is less present than other Zelda games and that the plot of Majora's mask is more grounded with realistic things.
To list how magic is ‘’extremely’’ prominent as well as how the plot and the setting are not realistic.
- Far from using basic magic, Link can:
- Time Travel
- Slow down time as well as fast forward through time.
- Shapeshift into other people via healing their ghosts. One of these transformations (Fierce Deity), is even a creature, created by the memories of all the people of the land that Link befriended.
- Teleport
- Create decoys of himself.
- Summon a living Scarecrow.
- See and talk to ghosts, sometimes turning them into magical masks.
- Transform into a 50 foot tall giant.
- Turn his arrows into beams of Fire, Ice and Light.
- There’s many Fantastic monsters and creatures even by the standards of the Zelda series, whom are all treated as normal by regular citizens, including:
- Plant people that shoot bubbles or nuts and can fly with magical flowers.
- Rock people that can roll into balls and move at superhuman speeds.
- Fish people that run a rockband using sea animals as instruments.
- Fairies that are common knowledge and the citizens of town regularly visit.
- An entire valley and city composed of undead like Ghosts, Mummies, Skeletons and Zombies.
- Snowlems just outside town.
- Alien ghosts!
- Locations are extremely weird like a dungeon that you repeatedly have to change gravity in.
- Time Travel and shapeshifting via magical masks are central elements in general.
- The Big Bad is a demonic Evil Mask possessing an Undead Child and commanding a gigantic army of very strange monsters. He was also friends with the Giants that literally created the world he lives in.
- There’s a living scarecrow just walking around town that is treated as normal.
- Many ordinary citizens possess Masks of Power, they even explain to you bestow magical abilities upon their wearer.
- Gonk-ish witches are regular merchants.
- Other fantastic things include Talking Animals as well as Funny Animals, including a possibly Cybernetic beaver
- The Magic effects of the milk from the milkbar is well known and even a point of advertisement.
And I can’t find it at this moment, but in an interview, with one of the game’s writers, possibly Aonuma, he stated he added in whimsical and dream like elements into the game to offset another writer when he added scary stuff.
Make no mistake, I love Majora’s Mask, but it doesn’t seem to fit the trope at all.
Even in the Zelda series, I feel The Legend Of Zelda 1 is more Low Fantasy, though I don’t think it fits the trope either.
Edited by MonsundopenShould MK 1 characters have new folders on the MK 1 character page
So I recently tried to create new folders for the Kombat Kast for Mortal Kombat's reboot timeline, using precedent such as Soul Series, since virtually every character has a radically different history and/or personality to the point that their old character folders are incompatible
Futhermore these new incarnations of the characters are regarded by the lore of the story itself as being distinct entities (For example: original timeline Kitana has no continuity with New Era Kitana, instead existing as Titan Kitana who's a completely different character; all of Liu Kang's prior relationship with Kitana is only present when interacting with Titan Kitana)
I don't think there's a feasible alternative to creating new folders for all the characters on the New Era's character page. Trying to just slot them into their old folders is just a recipe for confusion and clutter. And the only other alternative is to create individual character pages for all the characters so we can put multiple folders on their pages for all their different incarnations, which is just needlessly messy and still confusing since we have situations like New Era Scorpion being Kuai Liang instead of Hanzo Hisashi
Plus I'm under the impression that TV tropes wants to avoid creating individual character pages where possible
Unfortunately someone reverted my attempt to create new folders on the Mortal Kombat 1 character page and I don't want to get into an edit war, so I'm bringing it to the ATT thread
I also brought up the matter on the Mortal Kombat Discussion thread, and the limited replies so far have been in agreement that the New Era should have it's own character folders as well
Edited by CrimsonOddballopenActor Allusion clarification Film
SOLVED: Production Throwback
Can Actor Allusion be also applied to the director or is it strictly for actors?
In Conspiracy Theory, one of the scenes has the characters hide in a crowded cinema, where they are screening Ladyhawke. Both were directed by Richard Donner and he picked the screened movie himself as a joke.
Edited by TropiarzopenTroping works made by family members
I know that Auto-Erotic Troping, troping your own works, is disliked, and YMMV for such is outright forbidden, but what about troping and adding YMMV for works made by family members? For example, making a work page for a now-discontinued webcomic my brother made. I probably can't reference anything he told me personally that he never wrote anywhere, but the comic itself should be fair game, right?
Edited by KingofNightmaresopenHTAW goes where/limits and complaining
- Hard-to-Adapt Work: The Secret Invasion comic series was a large Crisis Crossover event that overhauled the post-Civil War status quo and continued to have an impact on the Marvel Universe. The concept of Skrulls posing as established characters such as Rhodey and Everett Ross for an uncertain amount of time would have repercussions that could be covered over the course of a Phase, if not a Saga in and of itself. Having such a grand event being covered in a six-episode TV series can feel underwhelming, especially with such a small cast consisting of little to no superheroes. Even The Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes had taken several liberties when adapting the comic storyline.
The last part makes me think Hard-to-Adapt Work should only apply to the work being adapted, not the adaptation. And the many complaints I've seen about the 2023 series make me thing more of this is difficulty of fitting it in the MCU given its differences than difficulties within the source material.
Two other related questions about Hard-to-Adapt Work.
- The Lord of the Rings is listed as one even after the films proved it possible and well done. Is it due to the prior adaptations being poorly received and/or it being surprising the success of the film adaptations were.
- Undertale isn't listed despite many attributes prohibitive for non-interactive work. So does it require serious effort/discussion regarding adapting to count?
Also there's so much complaining under YMMV.Secret Invasion 2023 that it might need looking into.
openFor Want of a Nail substitute
So For Want Of A Nail is apparently not a trope anymore (something I disagree with, but fine), and I've got a problem. Many of the alternatives offered don't really fit with some of the examples used for characters, most commonly when describing the differences between the main version of a character and their AU self. Should these differences be put in the Alternate Self trope or can anyone think of a different trope that could be used?
openJust how much information should be mentioned in a character's description? Videogame
Felt like I have to ask this question hoping for those who are way more familiar with how this wiki works to give their thoughts as well. Wall of text warning though, as this does not involve only one video game. But a TL;DR is that some Gacha Games on this wiki have long character descriptions because they're also including gameplay information and other fluff, while there's a debate on whether one game should copy another similar game's way of handling descriptions. Who knows if the descriptions run the risk of going into Walkthrough Mode? Just how much "fluff" can really be added there?
For those who are not familiar with the above two games, the older and longer way of writing descriptions can still be seen on Characters.Genshin Impact Fischl, divided into paragraphs or parts:
- First, a short paragraph describing who they are, usually just in a concise manner, but longer ones talk about their lore.
- Second, a general paragraph describing their "core" gameplay mechanics; what their general gameplay is, what their skill does, what their Limit Break does.
- Third, another gameplay-related paragraph talking about their "character progression systems", like how their skills or Limit Break are improved through in-game means. There are also bits of fluff added in this part.
- Fourth, one sentence stating where the character can be obtained, as the game is a Gacha Game.
Note that the character descriptions for Star Rail used to have simple descriptions, yet there are tropers who massively expanded them to focus on their gameplay. The discussion on the descriptions started a month ago
... Several tropers (including myself) have already weighed in our thoughts on why trimming was necessary, though the discussion was mostly between tropers zero5889 and Ner0014re N, with the latter being the one who mostly did the trimming after getting plenty of responses from those who agree.
Personally, I agreed trimming specifically the "fluff" part of the third paragraph
, stating fluff doesn't really make sense depending on the character... as if other tropers were trying to link gameplay upgrades/passives and lore when they can be misinterpreted in another way, or are not exactly Gameplay and Story Integration at all. Welt's old character description in Characters.Honkai Star Rail Astral Express used to have such kind of fluff that don't really make sense if you're into the lore of the character.
The newer and shorter way of writing descriptions can now be seen on Characters.Honkai Star Rail Astral Express. Generally, there's no longer a paragraph talking about "character progression systems".
For what it's worth though, games like Arknights and Honkai Impact 3rd were written with concise/very simple character descriptions for years now (and tropers who are/were very active on maintaining them kept it that way), and yet troper zero5889 insisted that Honkai Impact 3rd needs some structuring on character pages, and suggested
that "detailed descriptions" for gachas like Arknights are long overdue.
But should it be the case? Are detailed character descriptions for Gacha Games really necessary?
If it would seem like troper zero5889 is planning to restructure character pages or rewrite descriptions on Gacha Games, they did confirm
they are going to give the character pages of Honkai Impact 3rd a look in the future. zero5889 also went to the Arknights forum
to suggest a rearranging of Arknights character pages to group them by "subclass" instead of general class, but several tropers objected and say it would just be overcomplicating things.
Recently on the Discussion tab
for Star Rail, there's another troper who disagreed on the trimming effort of some ability descriptions in Star Rail (particularly the removal of the "character progression systems" paragraph), like a week or so after the actual trimming edits were being done... suggesting the character descriptions of Genshin and Star Rail should still have a similar way of writing.
The trimming effort went through because many tropers agreed with it (like a majority vote, or so), but there are still those few who disagree (likely unware that a month-long discussion already happened).
Edited by DanteVinopenDeath's Head: seeking consensus to revert changes after fact check Print Comic
Two Marvel Comics pages, ComicBook.Deaths Head and Trivia.Deaths Head, have some 'detective work' statements/examples added by DaPolicia regarding the character's creation and copyright status. The same claims were added to The Other Wiki's page for the character.
These are largely updates to examples and text I previously edited or added, so I don't want to revert them myself (and start an edit war) without a consensus.
This is the core claim they've added:
- Pop-Culture Urban Legends: Multiple sources, including Simon Furman himself, allege that Marvel maintained Death's Head's rights by rushing out a one-page comic (commonly referred to as "High Noon Tex" after a line spoken by Death's Head in the strip) that was featured in various other Marvel UK comics before his Transformers debut, circumventing the company's agreement with Hasbro. However, artist Bryan Hitch's signature in the final panel reads "Hitch '88", indicating that it wasn't drawn until the year after Death's Head debuted in Transformers, and there's no actual indication that the strip was published until May of 1988, meaning that Marvel likely engaged in some other chicanery to keep Hasbro away from Death's Head.
The collected edition introduction directly states that "High Noon Tex" was created to secure copyright. There's a photo of the relevant statements here
◊ for anyone who want to read it.
IANAL, but as I understand it UK copyright law is based on evidence of creation, not just widespread publication. Ashcan Copy logic allows the creation of a quick, sketchy version of the work or character to confirm ownership. The intro says it was "subsequently" published and I don't think a 1988 signature on the final/published work is a "Gotcha!" to show the creators are lying.
With that in mind I'd like to:
- Cut Pop-Culture Urban Legends entirely
- Cut the "if Marvel hadn't done whatever they did" element from What Could Have Been, which also casts doubt on Marvel's claims.
- Cut the whole "A commonly-circulated story, corroborated by both Furman and artist Bryan Hitch and perpetuated by sources like This Very Wiki" section that was added to the ComicBook.Deaths Head intro, which casts doubt on the intro's original brief factual statement about the character's creation.
Even if there's more to the story than the official sources suggest, and Marvel isn't telling the complete and accurate history, I don't think it's our place to speculate in this way.
(If we get an official on-the-record statement from the company or creators that contradicts the original printed statements, that would be different)
Does that sound fair?
Edited by Mrph1resolved Potential edit war Live Action TV
Troper Metal Max 1991 has been constantly re-adding Alternate Self to MCU: Benjamin Poindexter that connects it to the 2003 Daredevil movie even though those films haven’t ever crossed over or been connected so they’re not canon. Are they commiting an edit war?
Edited by MaxyGregoryyyyopenEdit War
ElJuaco added Alternate Self
to the Sony Kraven's character folder, HissingAurora94 deletes it,
Eljuaco re-adds it, HissingAurora94 redeletes it.
openEdit war on TOTK Character page
On May 14th, troper Codemon added this trope
to the Other Races subpage for Tears of the Kingdom.
- Ascended Fanon: Either that, or the biggest case of Contrived Coincidence in the series' history. Mineru appears to be heavily based on Yaraxonal from the fangame Hyrule Conquest (formerly Hyrule Total War.), who predates Mineru by a decade. Don't believe it? Compare them side
◊ by side
◊. It's not just their appearance; they are both thousands of years old Sages of Spirit who were sealed in stone, have a familiar relation to another ancient character (Yaraxonal is the wife of Senturon, who himself has some major overlaps with Rauru), share a color scheme of black, orange and gold, and their height of about two times that of Hylians. Given Tears of the Kingdom's developement team is composed of many younger and fresh developers, it's possible some of them happen to be fans of Hyrule Conquest and took some of its content as inspiration.
As it's a trivia trope, I removed it
citing as such in the edit reason. A few hours later, Codemon re-added it
with no edit reason.
openMisuse of italic markup
Over at AwesomeMusic.Veggie Tales (courtesy link to page's edit history
), FoxDog1234 added a zero-context example with a quote from the lyrics in script format in both italics and quotes. Since, per Text Formatting Rules, quotes in script format go in neither quotes nor italics unless they're a page topping quote,note Specifically, under "Quote Formatting", "Do not italicize the text of the quote itself, except parts of it for emphasis. Don't use anything else to indicate emphasis (except all caps and bolding, used sparingly); don't use apostrophes, underscores, slashes, [i][/i], or anything of that nature. Don't enclose the dialogue in inverted commas or quotation marks." I removed the quotes and italics while commenting out the example. FoxDog1234 went back and added context to the example, but also added back the italics (with additional formatting errors).
Permission to re-remove them?
openIs WheelJackDude just ripping off other peoples' contibutions to a Lalaloopsy WMG?
So for the WMG page for Lalaloopsy we start with the classic theory trope that "the characters were reincarnations of humans that died horribly". Of course my Perky Goth self wanted to contribute because typing out ways people died that corelate with the character they are now was fun to me, but I noticed particular entries from Wheeljack Dude that were suspiciously similar to others' contributions.
One of my older entries:
- Scarlet Riding Hood and her little sister Cape always went to the woods late at night without asking. One night they were brutally mauled by a rabid wolf.
One of Wheeljack Dude's older entries, added later on:
- Kat Jungle Roar and her sister Whiskers always snuck in a large jungle without listening to their mother. One day they are found dead after a hungry lion attacked them.
(I changed mine to be more interesting later on, but I still felt I needed to bring that up.)
And a more recent entry of mine:
- Similar to Storm E., the Buttonettes (Keys Sharps 'N' Flats, Strings Pick 'N' Strum, and Sticks Boom Crash) did horribly offensive songs and tormented their own fans. The stage they were performing on one night collapsed.
And then a more recent entry of Wheeljackdude's, again added later on:
- Penny Dots 'N' Blots did twisted and offensive artwork and murals, and tormented her fellow artists. The art studio that she was in collapsed one day.
And there's a bit more in the history for it-
I'm not sure if ripping off other peoples' entries to a WMG is worthy of a report, but I still felt I had to bring it up. Am I overreacting, or...?
Edited by RedBerryBlueCherryopenItTakesTwo2021 (continued) misuse?
- Crosses the Line Twice: The infamous part where Cutie the Elephant is murdered by the main protagonists is intended to be over-the-top Black Comedy in the spirit of a Monty Python sketch. As the rest of this page shows, to most players, it crosses the line once and then stays there. YMMV cannot be played with so just not an example if so.
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Cutie's death scene was supposed to make Cody and May seem like selfish assholes, but given that Cutie is clearly an intelligent being who feels pain and was nothing but kind to them, the end result is that they come off less as merely self-centered jerks and more as sociopaths. 'Misuse as it was intentional
which it notes and UU only applies if for unintentional reasons. Note that the editor replaced there prior version
which seemed better as it gave different reasons they were unlikeable.
I've previously deleted the subverted part of Crosses the Line Twice as Natter and a Designated Hero entry similar to the UU, so taking here first, and since it might be an ongoing issue.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaughtresolved Permission to change entry on Fanfic/MagmaDragonKing without causing an EditWar.
On March 21st, 2023, I added the following entry to Adaptational Backstory Change:
- Whereas Jellal was a genuinely heroic person once in canon before being Brainwashed and Crazy by Ultear for the better part of a decade, here he's Not Brainwashed, is just naturally twisted, and his "heroic" personality was nothing but a front he put on and then discarded in his quest for power. Kairomaru
outlined this themself when a commenter expressed their mixed feelings on Jellal's death since, beforehand, this distinction wasn't apparent in the main story itself.
- The Continuity Snarl-inducing retcon that Jellal was Brainwashed and Crazy by Ultear for the better part of a decade despite the age difference between Ultear and Jellal is removed, meaning that he's Not Brainwashed and is just naturally twisted, and his "heroic" personality was nothing but a front he put on and then discarded in his quest for power.
- The notion that the original version is a Continuity Snarl is debatable, especially when it is treated as such nowhere else on this site.
- For context, Ultear Milkovich was a member of the Dark Guild "Grimoire Heart", obsessed with trying to release The Black Wizard Zeref so they could take over the world, Ultear having been recruited by Guildmaster Hades at a young age after she escaped from a government experiment facility. One of her first jobs was obtaining one of the "keys" to unlocking Zeref by manipulating Jellal Fernandes, a child slave at the Tower Of Heaven who had led a rebellion to free the slaves there, but was shortly after brainwashed by Ultear into continuing the horrors at the Tower so that he could "revive" Zeref, feigning that she was his partner in the process. This lasted until the titular "Tower Of Heaven" arc where, after having kidnapped his old friend/love interest Erza Scarlet, Jellal fought and lost to main character Natsu Dragneel, the Tower being destroyed and Jellal believed to have died, when in truth he survived, just barely, and was freed from the brainwashing, but struck with Laser-Guided Amnesia.
- As PutotyraNoZarus's reasoning for putting it as such is unstated outside of the entries "age difference", not even providing an Edit Reason, I don't really know. The Sinful claimed in the comments for a review by Very Melon that fic author Kairomaru stated "how nonsensical he found it was that she was somehow perfectly controlling him from a distance despite being brand new to her magical studies", except I can find no record of Kairomaru saying that, and it ignores the fact that the reason Ultear was even in that experimentation facility was because of the sheer raw magic power she had since birth, and that she had spent years there being experimented on, some of which was willing since she had escaped once prior to the escape that led to her joining Grimoire Heart, but had returned of her own accord due to her own Dark and Troubled Past. Even the age difference aspect feels like flimsy reasoning since canonically, Ultear is pretty close to Jellal in age.
- Canonically, Jellal was Brainwashed and Crazy by Ultear for the better part of a decade, changing from a heroic and kind person to a ruthless and twisted monster until he was freed. Here, the latter is his natural personality, the former being a front he put on then later discarded once he had control over the Tower of Heaven himself.

kiaesi
was an editor only for a day and worked on one page, creating Literature.Noblesse Oblige in 2018.
The other editor to the page, who started editing that same day is inaceso
, who also much more recently started editing again in January to make WebOriginal.Fatherless Behaviour.
Even if they are the same user, that's not a problem in of itself. But I can't find any indication that either of these works actually exist (in addition to the latter page being a complete stub). There's a post on its discussion page
.
I've P Med the second account about the stub-ness but I'm not sure what to do about the fact I can't find any trace of either work they made pages for.