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Ask the Tropers:
openFranchise Killer?
- Back when it was first announced, New Super Mario Bros. was praised for bringing the franchise back to its roots after 2D Super Mario Bros games had been dormant for years save for a few ports, and it was popular enough to warrant a sequel, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, in 2009, which also ended up being a reasonable success. However, New Super Mario Bros. 2 and New Super Mario Bros. U would end up splitting the Mario fanbase into two groups (3D fans and 2D fans) and were highly criticized for being unoriginal and formulaic. This is especially noticable considering the effect these games had on the series, with spinoff series such as Paper Mario (see below) and Mario Party becoming just as repetitive in nature, if not more so. Following the failure of the Wii U and Mario's decline in popularity at the time, Nintendo has stated that they wanted to move away from 2D Mario and wanted to move away from NSMB as much as possible, stating the next 2D Mario title would be a fresher experience. The last thing they did that had any connection to NSMB was Super Mario Run and Super Mario Maker which featured its aesthetic and gameplay as a selectable style for levels.
- Speaking of Paper Mario, the game that is often considered to have broken the camel's back for that series is Paper Mario: Sticker Star. Originally conceived as a traditional, story-driven Paper Mario game on the Nintendo 3 DS, the project wound up being heavily reworked into a much more formulaic game at the orders of Miyamoto himself, no less. As a result, the game was criticized significantly for removing many aspects that made the series so beloved in the first place. However, it did sell well enough for a sequel, Paper Mario: Color Splash, to be released in 2016. While the game was somewhat better received due to fixing some (though not all) of the problems that plagued Sticker Star, the Broken Base caused by Sticker Star ended up being alienated yet again by Color Splash. No new Paper Mario games have been announced since.
The former seems more like "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny, as it doesn't explain which failure (the Wii U failure is a different issue, as the Mario games was it's most successful part) led to the change. As for Paper Mario, these games normally have multi-year gaps between them, so I think it's too soon to say. Should one or the other be axed or altered?
openApplicability Web Original
I was browing the YMMV.The Nostalgia Critic page and noted an entry on applicability.
" Applicability: Autistic fans have welcomed Critic with open arms, with Doug comparing him to similarly coded Peridot, and Home Alone 2 bringing back the cereal special interest, all the nerves from the episode resulting in a meltdown when it's mocked and getting forgiven when he stresses out over thinking he ruined it. Hyper Fangirl has her fair share of Misaimed Fandom, but her most devoted audience are neuroatypical women who relate to her struggles and want to see her get better (without Critic having to forgive her). "
I didn't know what applicability as a trope was until I looked at the Laconic page, but it says "Word of God asks the audience to make up their own mind about the theme." which doesn't seem to fit these examples... and neither do many examples on the applicability page itself.
"Prometheus was designed for Wild Mass Guessing. One moment of Idiot Ball could mean an hour of theorizing behind why it is so. "
"The Day the Earth Caught Fire (1962) was made long before global warming and climate change became big issues, but is still about climate change which has been caused accidentally by technology (simultaneous nuclear tests at the north and south poles change the tilt of the Earth's axis)."
"The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is a case of confusing applicability with allegory. The connection between The Wonderful Wizard of Oz and the then-contemporary American political landscape was not even raised until 1963, when summer school teacher Henry Littlefield, while trying to teach the 1896 Presidential election and the turn-of-the-century Populist movement to bored history students, stumbled upon the idea of using the characters and events of The Wizard of Oz as metaphors to teach the concepts. He and his students made a number of connections - the Scarecrow represented the farmers, the Tin Woodman the factory workers, the Wizard was President Grover Cleveland or Republican presidential candidate William Mc Kinley, the Cowardly Lion was Democratic presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan, the silver shoes were the silver standard, the yellow brick road the gold standard, and so on - and Littlefield eventually wrote an article, "The Wizard of Oz: A Parable on Populism," which was published in the magazine American Quarterly in 1964. You can read this article here. Unfortunately, this was eventually taken to mean that Baum wrote the book as an allegory for the political landscape at the turn of the century despite the fact Littlefield believed Baum had no political agenda when he wrote the book."
" Hans Christian Andersen's The Little Mermaid is open to many allegorical interpretations, as are its various adaptations."
So, what is applicability and are these examples valid/applicable? Should the Laconic page be rewritten?
Edited by lalalei2001openFandomSpecificPlot question Literature
A Christmas Carol has hundreds and hundreds of adaptations, but also fanfics, some of which have specific plots.
I added "* Fandom-Specific Plot: Many fanfics tend to revolve around freeing Jacob Marley of his chains or setting Scrooge up with Belle after his reformation, usually by having her husband die. Other common fics have Scrooge/Marley as a pairing, in life or after death."
to the book's page since it was fandom-specific and many of the ones I've read are based on the book as opposed to a movie. jamespolk then removed it saying it should go on an adaptation page, but many fics are nonspecific about which version they follow so most people assume they're book-based unless said otherwise. Where should it go, if anywhere?
Also apparently Fandom-Specific Plot itself isn't a YMMV trope, but its related page shows it on tons of YMMV pages.
Edited by lalalei2001openNot sure about where information has been coming from for Avengers Infinity War. Film
- Lantern Jaw of Justice: Played with. He's a space tyrant with a god complex, but he still features a well defined jawline that you'd see on the various heroes to illustrate he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist meant to be a Foil to the good guys.
- Well-Intentioned Extremist: This version of Thanos is driven to stop what he believes will eventually become an apocalyptic Overpopulation Crisis. By using the Infinity Gauntlet to wipe half of intelligent life, he'll be saving the other half from using up their natural resources faster than those resources can be replenished.
- Freudian Excuse:
- The majority of his species died after an Overpopulation Crisis led them to use up all the natural resources on his homeworld of Titan. Thanos believes it's his duty to stop such a tragedy from ever happening again... even if it means wiping out half the universe to save the other half.
- He was also ostracized during his childhood due to his genetic deformity, which played a major role in shaping his personality.
- Adaptational Heroism: In the comics, Thanos is a Death worshiper who killed half the universe as an offering to his "love". In the MCU, Thanos is a true Well-Intentioned Extremist who believes killing trillions is a necessary evil to "save the universe from itself" and protect trillions more from resource wars, overpopulation, and permanent environmental damage to their own homes.
Where has this information been coming from? I have not found any sources for this anywhere other than this site. I'm tempted to say this might be fake, as the movie hasn't come out yet for starters.
resolved Loud house memes Western Animation
Memes.The Loud House has some examples that come from fan works and not the show itself. Is this allowed?
openHow to handle sensitive topics regarding Kanye West audience reaction pages?
So I noticed that after a long stint of being locked due to rampant vandalism, Kanye West pages have been unlocked, and I think now's a good a time as any to question: what's the degree to which discussion on Kanye's life should be mentioned before it becomes inherently uncivil? Normally I wouldn't question this at all because duh, no real-life troping, but Kanye West is in a bit of a unique situation since a heavily significant portion of his music is autobiographical, often addressing the controversies and scandals he's in as they were happening.
I was considering adding a Harsher in Hindsight entry about how much of his post-808s and Heartbreak music being marked by his self-confessed emotional and mental collapse seems especially uncomfortable after 2022, where by all accounts (from tabloid drama to his actual new music) indicates he's pretty much gone off the rails. For specificity's sake (as well as focusing primarily on the music as an axis of discussion), the 2018 album ye entirely hinges around his anxieties following his then-recent diagnosis with bipolar disorder (as just one bit from that album, "Yikes" expresses worry that he won't be able to control himself in another public controversy) and trying to find peace for the future, which seems especially depressing since nowadays he's proudly refusing his meds and doing far grosser and more irresponsible things that have really wrecked his mainstream profile, as well as making music where he's continuing his autobiographical slant by espousing his conspiracy theory mindset and disturbingly violent and hateful thoughts. Even if not just documenting that comprehensively, there's some individual moments like in 2007's "Flashing Lights" with the line "I hate these [n-word] more than a [naz-word]" that are wince-inducing now in their own right.
If it comes down to it, I'm ok with simply not writing anything down addressing the elephant in the room, because while I trust in my ability to document it as civilly as possible, I don't want to enable the floodgates for more vandalism regarding his behavior and stinking up the pages again. In general, I'm wondering what the stance is on regarding the limits to how much his personal history is allowed to matter when it comes to his art, because the things I think are most controversial about him sadly do occupy a gray space thanks to Kanye's approach as both "provider of art" and "himself a living artpiece". Any specific thoughts on what's okay or not okay to talk about?
Edited by number9roboticopenA continuation from the SMG4 query
So to continue from this
query, and particularly this
point and help point out where things went wrong:
- March 19th, 2022
: Euan 2000 edits the list, adding the "SMG4 Cosmology Saga" as its own, unwicked bullet and placing Genesis and Revelations underneath it as second-level bullets.
- March 11th, 2023
: Dragon Ball changes the list to also place the YouTube arc underneath the "Cosmology Saga" bullet.
- March 12th, 2023
: Soufriere reverts the above edit, making YouTube a single-level bullet again. Their edit reason:
- March 16th, 2023
: Dragon Ball changes the YouTube arc back to a sub-level bullet. (I believe this in of itself is an edit war, though it's not especially relevant to what's been happening more recently and the troper has already been suspended for another issue.)
- March 30th, 2023
: troperaiser once again gives the YouTube arc its own bullet, separate from the "Cosmology Saga." (They also change the wording of the latter to omit "SMG4.")
- June 15th, 2023
: Random User 21360 makes all four pre-Genesis arcs (including YouTube) into sub-bullets under "Cosmology Lore." Their edit reason:
- For context, Glitch Productions makes the series, and the Lawsuit arc comes after Revelations.
- June 23rd, 2023
: troperaiser reverts the above edit, making the first four arcs single-bullet again.
- June 24th, 2023
: Random User 21360 reverts the above edit, once again making the first four arcs sub-bullets under "Cosmology Saga." (This is where they start edit warring.) Their edit reason, with slight formatting corrections:
- June 27th, 2023
: Broson Roder 232 reverts the last edit again (putting the first four arcs on their own bullets).
- July 17th, 2023
: troperaiser adds small headers to the list of arcs: "Cosmology Lore" (containing the first six arcs, up through Revelations) and "Post-Cosmology Lore" (containing the Lawsuit arc, the seventh and currently last one). This is in addition to the "Cosmology Saga" bullet point.
- July 18th, 2023
: Random User 21360 gives the Genesis and Revelations arcs their own bullet points and removes the "Cosmology Saga" one. In other words, every arc has a single-level bullet like a normal list.
- July 26th, 2023
: Broson Roder 232 changes the "X Lore" headers, splitting off the first three arcs to a new "Pre-Cosmology Lore" section. Their edit reason, with slight formatting corrections:
- July 27th, 2023
: Random User 21360 reverts the above edit, essentially lumping the first six arcs under the "Cosmology Lore" header again. Their edit reason:
- July 28th, 2023
: Wingnut re-adds the "Cosmology Saga" bullet point, once again placing Genesis and Revelations as sub-level bullets underneath it. Their edit reason:
- August 2nd, 2023
: In what is currently the latest revision of the page, Random User 21360 moves the YouTube arc to a sub-bullet under the "Cosmology Saga" bullet point. Their edit reason, with minor formatting corrections:
So there are three tropers guilty of edit warring: troperaiser, Random User 21360, and the aforementioned still-suspended Dragon Ball.
I also put this in a separate query to help the mods and other tropers determine what to do, who's in the wrong, and which entry goes where.
Edited by skan123openToo Much on The Millennium Age of Animation? Western Animation
On the UsefulNotes.The Millennium Age Of Animation page, TimonAndPumbaa623
has been adding numerous series/movies/specials to the page's list of "Series/Films associated with this era", since 2021 and especially recently, treating it like an index of anything that's come out since the Turn of the Millennium. While the folder itself admits the list is incomplete, it's added a lot of bloat to an already long page, approaching 400,000 . And while "associated with the era" is a somewhat nebulous and subjective term, I'm questioning if such works as CJ the DJ or Little Angels: The Brightest Christmas are notable enough for such a list if it intends to inform people.
All that said, I'm not comfortable with just making a unilateral page change all by myself, so are there any further opinions on this?
openI Knew It! back and forth/meta and YMMV move?
- I Knew It!: Fans are completely happy that Hasbro confirmed that Bumblebee is a complete reboot to the film franchise after 2 months of debate, given the reshoots/rewrites. Fans began to theorize this was the case pretty much as soon as Blitzwing, at the time believed to be Starscream, showed up in trailers sporting the look of a classic Seeker, and the theories got more intense as more information came out. When the movie itself was released, most of the audience either accepted it was a reboot or strongly believed it should be. Fortunately, that turned out to be the case Hasbro went with.
This was commended out as Flip-Flop of God has gone back to mixed messages on if it's a Soft Reboot as opposed to Alternate Continuity. So should it be removed, kept as it was once an example, or does this mean it should be limited to confirmed in-work as opposed to Word of God or production?
And as I Knew It! is now YMMV, is there a reason there hasn't seemed to be much moves/cleanup on that? Answering the former question would help with the move.
Also, Characters.Bumblebee was split from the films because it was initially confirmed as alternate continuity. I assume we want to keep them separate given it's effectively its own thing and the aforementioned inconsistency on its official status.
openFinal Fantasy XVI ButNotTooGay example removed, no edit reason Videogame
I added But Not Too Gay on Final Fantasy XVI recently, but it was removed by Diracspuddle without an edit reason, to which I've sent them a notifier for. The user is infrequently active, so I don't expect an answer back soon. Edit made here
.
In the context of FFXVI not shying away from some partial nudity and sex scenes where they make use of camera work to hide the naughty bits and kiss scenes between male-female pairings being generally more involved than the one gay kissing scene (characters are further away from the camera with their heads/hair blocking out the kiss itself), in addition to the gay couple not interacting romantically after that point, it seemed like it fit enough for me to be an example.
Is it fine to add the example back in?
Edited by YourIdeasresolved Question about adding two colliding YMMV tropes at once:
So Silent Hill: The Short Message came out last month to a pretty polarized reception, and there's a specific dynamic about it I want to document about it, that being the debate on whether it's "a real Silent Hill game" or not. There's been a lot of different directions on it I felt could be covered, but I'm specifically interested in how detractors come in both It's the Same, So It Sucks and They Changed It, Now It Sucks! varieties, with the entries being something like:
- It's the Same, So It Sucks, referring to how some critics accuse it of being a watered-down imitation of earlier formulas established in the series, including the "journey through a horror landscape that's a metaphor for the protagonist's trauma and repressed guilt" codified by Silent Hill 2, but not as interesting.
- They Changed It, Now It Sucks! (probably the more common criticism) in that the game focuses more on "modern" Survival Horror game tropes and features a story that some accuse of being more "trendy", melodramatic, and not like "real" Silent Hill (I've seen the focus on teenage depression, abuse, and suicide being compared to unfavorably to Life is Strange).
I trust myself in not veering too hard into complaining (I actually like the game for the most part and find the divided response interesting), but I was wondering if adding these two directions at once might be actually more appropriate as a Broken Base entry, and that it's not kosher to put these points down until the requisite 6-month waiting period has passed. I don't think these audience reactions are mutually exclusive — there are different nuances to what either is referring to for what they expect from the game — but I just wonder if it's good praxis to trope in the way I'm proposing, or if I should just wait for the 6 months for a collective Broken Base entry.
Edited by number9roboticopenNamespacing Quest Threads
So, I've been on-again-off-again working on the TLP Forum Quest
, which some of you might know better as a "Quest Thread" (if you don't know what one of those is, read the TLP). Considering how many Quests are being given trope pages, they really could use a definition + index page (which is what the TLP is trying to do), but there's another problem with Quests on this site that I'm not sure how to resolve: there's no consistent policy for namespacing them. Currently, they seem to be split between the Roleplay and Fanfic namespaces depending largely on author whim (and whether it's a derivative or original work), and the ones with accompanying artwork are often labelled as an Interactive Comic and accordingly placed in the Webcomic namespace. I'm completely convinced that Quests should be classified as Roleplay rather than Fanfic, but the distinction between Interactive Comic and Forum Quest is actually quite murky, given that the two formats are both descended from the same Ur-Example, Ruby Quest. I'm not sure exactly where the line ought to be drawn (as I said on the forum post, the idea that something is "not roleplay" just for having images doesn't quite sit right with me), nor what would need doing if a decision is reached. I tried asking on the TLP itself and didn't really get anywhere, and got no replies when I tried what looked like the relevant thread on the forums
. So now I'm here, where perhaps I ought to have gone first, to see what you guys think.
resolved Potential edit war? Web Original
On this page of this RWBY episode:
- Super N 9999 added a "Nice Job Fixing It Villain!" entry about Neo
.
- gjjones deemed it as potential misuse, so they took it down
.
- SuperN9999 re-adds it back, with the justification of the entry being present in Neo's character page
, despite reiterating that it was previously removed due to misuse.
Do we have a concrete Edit War here?
Edited by skan123resolved Vocabulary Conflict Anime
A little while ago now, Dentaku made this edit
on YMMV.Bocchi The Rock for the LGBT Fanbase example.
All instances of "Sapphic" were replaced with "Lesbian", saying the former is an "old-fashioned" form of the latter. I reverted the change with the reason that Sapphic is actually an umbrella term for any woman who loves woman (which does include lesbians, but also labels like bisexual, demi, etc.)
And then just today, someone reverted it again with no edit reason.
Edited by IkeaHanresolved Ban evader
Hello. Recently I have made a discussion on The Jungle Book page (and left an edit reason mentioning it without making any edits).
Currently only one user named Donner has responded to my discussion so far. While there was nothing suspicious about his response, I noticed Donner’s account was just created in March 2024.
While there is nothing wrong with a new user discussing things, and they haven’t actually done anything, I have made some recent discoveries about a recently deleted user named Thorion.
In the past I made an Ask The Tropers post trying to find out if Thorion and dkadugo were the same person, and geolocation proved it false.
However while they are not the same person, I have reason to believe that Thorion DID have another account on here under the username Jet 556. If that name sounds familiar, Jet 556 was a user who was suspended back in 2015(and I don’t think they were ever released from suspension, as their last edits were on July 30, 2015, though I could be wrong).
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/el.php?findfor=jet556&page=1
While Thorion’s account age was listed simply as “4 score and 7 years ago”, according to their edit history, their first edits were on July 31, 2015, while Jet 556 was suspended. And his first edits were on the same page that Jet 556 made his last edits on.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/el.php?findfor=Thorion&page=67
It actually goes beyond similar edits and interests though.
Thorion had made several TV Tropes pages, as well as a fanfic rec, of fanfics written by a writer named, you guessed it, Jet 556!
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Fanfic.TheEvabonSaga&page=1
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Fanfic.EnterKenFinlayson&page=1
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanficRecs/Detentionaire
Thorion was openly promoting the work of someone with the same username as a suspended user here!
It seems like there was at least some sort of connection between Thorion and Jet 556.
Again, there is a chance I could be wrong(as I have been in the past). Maybe they were relatives or close friends. Maybe Thorion was just a big Jet 556 fan. Thorion would act like Jet was a different person whole talking about him and reviewing Jet’s work(though considering that Jet 556 was suspended, it’s obvious why Thorion would try to pass himself off as a different person). Maybe they are the same, but Thorion simply requested a new account and the moderators allowed it(though considering Jet 556 was suspended, I doubt it). But I would be very surprised if they weren’t the same. If this was already brought up and debunked, I apologize. I haven’t seen any evidence that this has been cleared up, though.
Anyway, Thorion deleted his account, and last I checked jet556 was suspended back in 2015(and possibly banned), so nothing can be done about those accounts.
I am only bringing this up because in his last PM to me before deleting his account Thorion said he would “accept whatever punishment he received”, but he deleted his account(and I don’t know if he did it while under suspension, which would be a bounce, or if he did it before), and now this new Donner account, just created in March 2024 after Thorion deleted his account, is the only person to respond in my discussion so far. And if my suspicions are true, then Thorion has likely ban evaded in the past, meaning there is a chance for him to do it again.
If geolocation confirms Donner is a different person, then that’s fine. I’ve been wrong before. Again, nothing really suspicious other than the account’s age. They’ve only made a few edits so far so it’s difficult to tell at this point(they edited on some of the same pages Thorion did, but Thorion’s edited on a LOT of pages and Donner has also edited pages Thorion hasn’t, so there’s no real evidence). I just want to know because a discussion can’t really be had against a possible ban evader for numerous reasons.
Again, sorry to bother you about this.
Update: Posted more evidence of Donner likely being jet556/Thorion in the replies.
Edited by ClownishchimpopenMost Writers Are Writers is about... what exactly?
The trope Most Writers Are Writers is just confusing to me. From what I've read in the description, it's meant to be a flexible trope to either showcase characterization pertaining to the writer profession and/or how it affects the plot, or even a Chekhov's Skill. But a lot of the examples I've found on the page itself is of "This character's a writer/novelist/screenplayer" with no mention of anything as to why that's relevant. This seems like a chairs magnet to me, and it either needs a clean-up, a rework or a splitting.
resolved Daylight Horror reverted
So, Daylight Horror was made a disambiguation page a while ago because it was determined
that something scary happening during the day wasn't itself a trope.
However, Klaiopoiso
has recently decided to ignore that and restore the page without any discussion. The closest was them bringing up in the discussion page
, but they the only feedback they got were two people agreeing the trope shouldn't have been cut. The decision to restore the page seemed unilateral, and they didn't seem to take it through the TRS. The page is also a stub, with only two entries.
Can I get a page revert please?
Edited by chasemaddiganopenFanfic Self-Recommendation
Someone recommending their own fanfic
on Fanfic Recs (admittedly stating it upfront).
Do we have a standardized message for that?
openTrying to avoid an Edit War
A while ago I added the following example to Family Guy S7E12: "Episode 420":
- Broken Aesop: The episode advocates for the legalization of marijuana by having Brian specifically say that the town's productivity has gone up since everyone started smoking. However, this is contradicted by some scenes that show how those who have used the substance have become almost completely unable to function properly. Tom and Diane can barely form cohesive sentences while reporting the news, and Peter himself struggles to set up one of his trademark Cutaway Gags.
Noob Master later changed
"Broken Aesop" into "Don't Shoot the Message", without making any other modifications. The problem is that, in doing so, this became a Zero-Context Example. The entry is about how events within the work contradict the presented viewpoint, which is the definition of Broken Aesop. Don't Shoot the Message should specifically describe how viewers agree with the message, but dislike the execution.
As such, I would like to ask for permission to revert the trope to what it originally was.

Regarding an idiot ball edit . I removed it once as it seemed stated that Barry was stupid for refusing reveal his identity. Therefore due to his stupidity was unsympathetic. When a ) he gave valid and justified reasons why he wouldn't. The safety of his friends and family b ) various criminals have escaped before Killer Shark and Peekaboo so if they knew who he was his family would be targeted c ) As said to Iris he and the others would be constantly on the run and d) Noone in the Arrow verse has a publicly outed themselves for the same reason. Also it looks like another attempt to label Barry with a what an idiot or idiot ball trope for not revealing his identity. Despite those tropes were deleted for not applying to Barry's case. I have deleted it once. As has another troper. But it has returned either as unintentionally unsympathetic or what an idiot . The argument is the same that Barry is stupid for not revealing himself. However Barry made plain WHY. The same reason no one in the Arrow verse secret ID is public. Safety of friends and family.
Not only from Metas but everyday criminals he put away.
Not only that as a CI working for the Police any case worked and convicted could lead to hundreds of mistrials as Barry reveal as a vigilante could give grounds of conflict of interest. Basically the trope is calling him an idiot for not taking an action that could not be taken realistically
I want to remove the trope but that would be edit warring. Put it up for discussion but nothing.
Edited by Tuvok