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openMLPFIM Season 9 Fridge Horror Western Animation
Didn't know if I should ask this on the forum or here. Spoiler warning as this involves a plot twist for season 9 of My Little Pony Friendship is Magic.
Given that "Grogar" turned out to be a fake, should the following Fridge Horror entries about him be cut:
- Grogar is powerful enough to make Tirek, Chrysalis, and Cozy Glow, all top tier season-ender villains themselves, AFRAID... and he's NOT at full power yet!
- Considering how powerful Grogar is without his bell, the villain trio deciding to betray him by stealing the bell for themselves might be the only reason why Equestria isn't flattened to the ground.
- Instead of giving Grogar his bell, Tirek, Chrysalis, and Cozy lie to him and claim they were unable to retrieve it. Grogar seems furious at this, but he has shown in the past to be able to view previous events. What if he finds out about their lie later, or already knows about it and has plans to deal with his traitors later?
- Grogar makes it very clear that, even in his weakened state, he has far more power than the three of them combined. With the bell still there as far as he knows, what's stopping him from trying to go get it himself now that the others have at least learned to cooperate, only to find it missing?
- With the amount of power Grogar would have gained upon getting his Bewitching Bell back, who's to say he wouldn't have decided he doesn't need the others anymore? Even if he had other plans for them initially, he's far more likely to decide that should he learn of their betrayal.
openRise of Skywalker trope misuses?
I find these from The Rise of Skywalker suspect.
- Aborted Arc: After much buildup in the Prequels, and an arc in The Clone Wars, regarding a prophecy where Anakin Skywalker is The Chosen One who would restore balance to the force, the theme is dropped in favor of allowing Palpatine to survive and continue spreading the dark side via Puppet King Snoke and Ren, and causing destruction with the Sith fleet, thus nullifying his sacrifice. Zigzagged in that he does help Rey at the end, but by joining the thousands of other Jedi who live inside Rey, including Qui-Gon, Mace, Ahsoka, and Obi-Wan to empower Rey to defeat Palpatine once and for all and of course nothing said that the force will stay balanced.
The arc was completed and balance restored in ''Return of the Jedi", Anakin outright said "Bring back the balance Rey, as I did." It just didn't stay balanced or Palpatine stay dead for as long as we assumed. This sounds like complaining about the arc being arbitrarily undone as opposed to aborted. Saying it's Zigzagged makes it sound more like a non-example.
- Broken Aesop: Played With. One aesop of the previous film is that it doesn't matter if you're a "nobody," as Rey is still a powerful and capable hero despite the revelation her parents were just two drunken junk traders who sold her off. Then it turns out in this film that Rey was actually never nobody; the reason she's so powerful is because she's the granddaughter of Palpatine and heir to the entire Empire. Then it plays with it by showing she is a nobody. Her parents were nobody, useless to Palpatine and degraded to live as drunkards and junk traders. Her parents never intended her to become a Jedi, a war hero, or anything besides a scavenger to prevent her grandfather from finding her. Unfortunately, they failed.The aesop is reconstructed in a conversation between Finn and Jannah, where they discuss the possibility that when they refused to fight for the First Order anymore, they heard the Force calling out to them. Just because they aren't descended from a powerful line of Jedi doesn't mean the Force doesn't flow through them, same as with every other living being in the galaxy. Additionally, Rey being a heroic descendant of Palpatine who takes on the Skywalker name despite lacking blood relations to them continues the theme that blood does not mean everything.
Broken Aesop cannot be played with as by definition it's unintentional, all this sounds like it's arguing with itself. It also requires contradicting it's internal logic, so contradicting the Aesop of prior installments isn't this as it's an external contradiction. This sounds more like complaining.
Last question: Rey saving the day by by following Kylo's "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to." seems worth noting. Would this be Villain Has a Point or Strawman Has a Point as the validity was retconned in?
openClueless Aesop misuse?
After removing this from Clueless Aesop per cleanup
this was added back:
- * ''Literature/HarryPotter'': According to Creator/JKRowling, the idea behind the House Elves and Hermione's attempts to help them was to satirize WhiteMansBurden-esque activism, where well-meaning people from a more privileged group are so determined to help others in a less privileged group that they ignore what the people they're trying to help actually want. Unfortunately, this lesson is impossible to get across to the readers because House Elves' culture is completely surrounded by being happy that wizards use them as ''[[SlaveRace slave labor]]''. [[ValuesDissonance Not only is this never depicted as wrong by the books]], Hermione [[InformedWrongness is treated as an annoying tree-hugging hippie by both the narrative and the other characters]] simply for being the only one who is horrified by the fact that wizards are completely fine with slavery. It also makes an argument that [[HappinessInSlavery House Elves enjoy serving Wizards]] and [[SlaveLiberation abhor the attempts to free them]]. This ignores the fact that they're psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters, [[MoreThanMindControl clearly indicating they are not in control of their own minds]]; in turn, this [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation strongly implies]] that their "enjoyment" of servitude is just as forced. The closest the series comes close to decrying the treatment of House Elves is that [[GoldenMeanFallacy it's wrong to enslave them if you're an abusive master, not that it's wrong to enslave them at all]], with Hermione's CharacterDevelopment over it making her gradually become more reformist and accept that most House-Elves value better treatment from their slave masters more than actual freedom. And even that clumsy message loses what little water it holds when ''Deathly Hallows'' reveals that even a loving and well-meaning master can ''accidentally'' lock an elf in an infinite loop of failure and self-punishment by incautiously giving them an impossible order. As a result, the subplot came off as a huge mockery of genuine activism to many readers, especially to ones who were introduced to ''Harry Potter'' after the series wrapped up. It's not helped by the fact that many real-life slaves in the past were portrayed by their owners as being happy in slavery as an excuse to justify owning slaves.
I removed it as Clueless Aesop is not just an Aesop poorly done, but an Aesop poorly done because:
- It's a subject more mature or complex than the work can effectively portray (not the case given how the series had matured by this point).
- The fantastical parts undermine the real world applicability (not the case as the problems are the real world comparisons).
Also most of the issues causing it are YMMV which shouldn't apply for a non-YMMV trope. This issue is already covered under Strawman Has a Point and Unfortunate Implications. I intend to cut unless anyone objects.
openWhy is Sailor Earth not YMMV?
Sailor Earth is about fans of a work creating Original Characters that follow a theming convention in the work itself. Creating Original Characters based off a work is an Audience Reaction. However, despite this, the trope is not YMMV, and is listed as a trope on many work pages.
openJust removed this from Gamebooks
For the record, I've removed this entry from Gamebooks.
- Listened to in sequential order, Kendrick Lamar’s album “DAMN” is about the protagonist coming to terms with his own flaws and learning to love himself despite them. If played backwards, it’s about his descent into madness and self-loathing.
I mean, seriously?
openCreator adding audience reaction
nathancook
made a page about his own youtube channel here. I know it's allowed but he also made a funny page where everything is added by himself here. As far as I know, funny pages are audience reactions and creators are not allowed to put audience reactions on their own works.
This is visible here
openGender neutral writing in trope descriptions
I noticed that the description for Widely-Spaced Jail Bars uses male pronouns, even though you could easily replace them with gender neutral ones. For some reason, I thought that descriptions should be gender neutral, unless the trope itself relates to a specific gender.
However, I couldn't find a rule that states that descriptions should refrain from using gendered pronouns, and some other pages (such as Frozen Face or This Way to Certain Death) use male pronouns as well.
Is there a rule regarding the use of gendered pronouns in descriptions?
Edited by PowogaopenIs there a thread for adding/removing things from YMMV?
No-Damage Run has the YMMV banner (possibly because it's a subtrope of Self-Imposed Challenge), but all of the on-page examples are objective rewards that games have for completing some part of them without getting hit, and only 71 of its 594 wicks (~12%) are on YMMV pages. Is there a long-term projects thread I can take it to (like with Trivia pages), or does it need to go on Tropes Needing TRS?
openShould Win Back The Crowd get a Cleanup thread?
I noticed a lot of examples where it was being used to describe prerelease stuff and not the actual work: This example from YMMV.Soul Calibur VI for example:
- Win Back the Crowd: This is pretty much an Enforced Trope. Okubo stated
that the damage caused by V put the franchise on thin ice; if this game fails, the Soul series will completely fade from the stages of history. Therefore, they're going all out with nothing to lose.
- From the moment VI was announced, there were already signs that this is in action. Many declared the series to be dead after nearly six years without anything major (apart from free-to-play, mobile, and pachinko machines, but that doesn't count) and the last game itself was polarizing to say the least. Comparatively speaking, the reception to this game's announcement was highly positive, a sentiment that only intensified when it became clear that the game would not follow the largely unpopular Time Skip from V, allowing old favorites to return once again and proving one's love for the series wasn't limited to the days of old.
- It's clear that this has been Project Soul's goal from Day 1. The game takes the best aspects of past games and does its best to improve and add to them, all while giving a fresh start to the series after a convoluted lore and a derided Time Skip backed the story into a corner. Basically, it's a new starting point and a second chance that many felt the series needed, and many would say that things can only go up from here.
- Okubo's promise that Soulcalibur VI will look to be a good game first, and an eSport second is also a sign of this. Many haven't been pleased that games lately have skimmed on content or made censorship among other compromises with the excuse being "we want this to be played in professional gaming". While Okubo stated he does have plans to make it accessible to professionals, the plan is to worry about that after the basics are covered.
- That being said, the tournament crowd is absolutely thrilled with how the game plays so far, stating that it takes what was good about V and improves upon it while adding new ideas to make the game feel more distinct and less like Street Fighter.
- Libra of Soul finally gives players the sequel to III's Chronicles of the Sword they've been asking for since it was introduced back in 2005. It's expected that this mode will be as addictive as its predecessor, and the reception to finally getting a mode like this again has been very positive.
- VI getting an easy ticket to the main stage in EVO 2019 came as an absolute joy to the fanbase, as unlike other games, Soulcalibur didn't have to make a single compromise to be enjoyed by all, casual players and professionals alike — it's just that well-made.
Not to mention the fact that it's also listed on works that didn't have a crowd untill the recent installment (That's Win The Crowd) and series that didn't lose fans despite a bad installment.
Edited by PlasmaPoweropenBad Example of Base-Breaking Character? Print Comic
I was looking at Batgirl (2011), and came across this:
- Base-Breaking Character: Alysia Yeoh. Less about the character herself, and more about whether her being transgender is handled well or is being shoved into the reader's face to make the comic look progressive. Her getting Demoted to Extra when Cameron Stewart, Brenden Fletcher and Babs Tarr took over made this worse. It doesn't help that when she was brought back, many felt that the writers are treating her less like a full character, and more like a PR stunt.
- Wouldn't this be a case of Broken Base, rather than Base-Breaking Character, if the divide is "less about the character herself"?
- Is she even a base-breaking character? I'm not in the Batgirl fandom, so I have no idea what the general mood is, but in my experience, when someone uses the "shoved in the reader's face", it suggests someone's been analyzing things in bad faith.
openPossibly problematic RecursiveCrossdressing entry
From the Real Life section of Recursive Crossdressing:
- Trans people with non-accepting extended families often have to crossdress for family events, even after physically transitioning and legally changing their names. They effectively have to cross-dress and act as their birth gender just to be accepted in these situations.
To me, that entry looks like it was written by someone who undestands transness as the person becoming their preferred gender at some point in life rather than having been that gender all along. Being cis myself (with a perpetually-behind education on the subject), I want to let the people the entry is about weigh in before anything is done.
Edited by Nazetrimeresolved Edit requests from Web Creators:
A while ago, Adam Buckley himself requested that this particular edit be made to the Berserk Button entry on his page:
- ENTITLED IDIOTS note Bolded and enlarged as per his request here
- ENTITLED IDIOTS note Bolded and enlarged as per his request here
How do I expand this particular zero context example without breaking "The Fic May Be Yours, but the Trope Page Is Ours"?
I'm thinking something like:
- Buckley has no patience for ENTITLED IDIOTS who believe that they should get whatever they want whenever they demand it.
openStrange edits on Chased Off Into the Sunset
Not sure what's going on, but some Troper (ungabunga to be precise) seems to have gone a bit overboard on the Chased Off into the Sunset page? The folders for Western Animation etc have been deleted with no reason given, and the information about the page itself has also been removed. I'm not sure if they plan to rewrite anything, but at the moment the page looks very sorry for itself. Is anyone aware of this yet?
openNo Edit Reason Western Animation
The four most recent edits of https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/el.php?findfor=cristian1234
have just been deletions without any edit reasons which I would have just contented myself on sending them a message if two of those edits weren't big edits and all of them didn't seem to have a discernible reason behind it.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.DarkwingDuck
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.DuckTales2017
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Funny.DuckTales2017Season3#edit27064396
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Funny.Ducktales2017Season2#edit27064636
openI think Kizuna Ai's YMMV and Trivia pages need help
So I decided to take a look at Kizuna Ai's subpages after a long time of not having them updated personally. I had already edited the pages because in retrospect, a lot of the information regarding the 2019 upd8/activ8/"clones" debacle and the official confirmation of her voice actress became a Wall of Text and/or were placed in the wrong tropes.
However, some tropes and examples in those pages might still need second-hand confirmation from fellow tropers who are also into Vtubers, especially from other Kizuna Ai fans who know a lot of facts from the 2019 upd8/activ8/"clones" debacle. (Such questionable sentences and concerns are highlighted in bold-text).
- Germans Love David Hasselhoff: The channel has several notable fanbases outside of its origin country of Japan. Only time will tell if this repairs the damage done by the managing company.
(I feel like this statement can be rewritten, because it comes off as if the trope is now averted because of a controversy. Heck, is this last sentence even needed?)
- "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny: Kizuna Ai Codified the VTuber trend and gained rapid popularity as a result. Come the creation of multiple other standalone Vtubers and companies such as hololive and Nijisanji with their diverse cast of characters makes Kizuna suffer from standing out among other fans. The Ai clones debacle (including the loss of the original VA for Kizuna Ai) alienating pre-existing fans making matters worse.
(What is "the loss of the original VA for Kizuna Ai" referring to here? AFAIK, her original voice actress didn't retire, and in fact, even returned to voice her again. We need some further confirmation on this, because as it currently stands, that statement reeks of fake news.)
- Follow the Leader: Going in the other direction, the success of large VTuber groups like hololive, Nijisanji, Game Club Project and many others prompted a change in format to the channel by introducing Kizuna Ai clones voiced by different voice actresses (and, in the Chinese channel's case, a different language entirely). However, the drastic changes have just pushed fans towards the two groups.
(The last sentence is potholed to Epic Fail. Isn't Epic Fail supposed to be In-Universe only? What do we do here, Remove the entire sentence or just the link?)
- Money, Dear Boy: GUMI, the majority investor of Activ8 (the company managing the Kizuna Ai IP), are collectively of the opinion
that it ultimately doesn't matter who plays Kizuna Ai as long as the franchise and merchandise keep the money rolling in. This is ultimately due to the fact that the management company and investors get a bigger cut of the profits than if Nozomi Kasuga (Ai's first voice actor) had made her debut as a real person rather than a Virtual YouTuber. Ironically, the reverse was true in the early days of the channel, which may have contributed to GUMI's views in the first place. Their mentality might have actually worked had they not subtly tried to spurn Nozomi from doing her usual Let's Play content — perhaps unsurprisingly, Activ8 ended up publicizing a loss of ¥675 million
a few months after this came to light. VTuber projects that sprung up afterwards, such as hololive and Nijisanji, learned not to be so hostile to their talent for success.
(If this talked about the time when the company lost millions of Yen, I think the "afterwards" part is misleading or false because hololive and Nijisanji existed before that time when activ8 suffered deficit. Also, can this be trimmed down?)
- Reclusive Artist: The whole gimmick is that Kizuna Ai is supposedly an artificial intelligence that makes vlogs, skits and Let's Play videos in order to connect with humans, so the existence and identities of the humans behind it are kept secret to maintain the illusion. However, some incidents play with this trope.
- Ai sounded like Luna and vice-versa in their respective April Fool's videos, and only those videos.
- This even carried into the Azur Lane collab where all the splash art of her playable versions only had "Kizuna Ai" under voice actor.
- Averted with the English dub of Ingress, where Ai-chan's brief cameo was played by Cristina Vee.
- She sometimes mentions that she has staff members. In her Let's Play for Resident Evil 2 (Remake), fans think that Ai's staff plays the game because her aim significantly improved, but she, explains that even if she has a staff, she herself plays the games. In Ai-chan's "I have an assistant now!!
" vlog, she even casually mentions having a staff team and some of them can be heard laughing offscreen.
- On 24 April 2020, it's officially confirmed that Nozomi Kasuga is the original voice for Ai-chan, and she's now on advisory role
for the new Kizuna AI Co., Ltd.
(I trimmed the Reclusive Artist examples already but I think Kizuna Ai is an odd example of this after all the incidents that happened. As stated in the first part, the whole gimmick of a Vtuber is that the streamer's real identity is a secret. However, as stated in the last bullet, Kizuna Ai herself revealed her real identity. Now, does she still count for the trope, or not?)
openNeed assistance with troublesome situation on Characters. Street Fighter V
Yesterday, Tropers.Darth Walrus added Glass Cannon to Characters.Street Fighter V in relation to the character Abigail
. The problem is, this was his SECOND time adding said trope to the page; the first time was almost 3 years ago in August 2017
, which was then removed less than a month later
by Tropers.Red Rover Red Rover.
Red Rover's reason for removing it at the time was "This trope is about not being able to take many hits. Abigail can take plenty". When Darth Walrus readded it recently, his edit reason was "You can check up any guide that talks about Abigail's weaknesses, and all of them put his vulnerability to pressure and poor defensive options on the top of the list."
Based on Darth Walrus's edit reason, it seemed probable to me that he re-added the example deliberately, and thus ignited an Edit War albeit with a 3 year gap. I attempted to bring the matter to the Discussion page
in order to explain that this was Edit Warring and to argue why I agreed with Red Rover's position that the character did not count as a Glass Cannon (more on this later).
Darth Walrus's reaction, however, seemed to imply that he didn't remember the older edit (which conflicts with his reaction in the edit reason). In addition, he immediately became hostile and stated that pointing out that this was an Edit War was "accusing" him. Over the next several replies, I attempt to once again affirm that what he did was an Edit War (even if it wasn't intentional), and as I told him there, I am 90% certain that he knew he was Edit Warring based on his edit reason but decided to at least talk things out before I brought things here. Walrus, however, continued to attack me for calling what he did an Edit War and also accused me of not arguing in "good faith", despite my attempts to do just that before resorting to this very query.
P.S.: On top of that, Walrus also added a very questionable "Long-Range Fighter" example to the same page, and also added this
nattery and incorrectly-bulleted example to Informed Ability. Even in the example itself he admits that it's pedantic and sinkholes Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking.
Anyway, that leaves the site editing policy issues out of the way. Now to get down to the Glass Cannon debate itself.
In Street Fighter V, Abigail is the largest (over 8 feet tall) and most resilient character (1100 health, more the 1000 HP average) in the entire game. He also hits like a mac truck, destroying up to 80% of an opponent's health with one combo if he has the resources. His main weakness (as Walrus pointed out) is that if he's knocked down or cornered, Abigail has no Counter-Attack or reversal abilities. His only option is to sit back and block and hope that his opponent eventually makes a mistake. Walrus argues that this makes him a Glass Cannon. He has no Dragon Punch or invincible Spinning Piledriver to fight back if he's cornered.
As I pointed out, hoever, Abigail not having other options besides blocking only makes his defense bad relative to characters that have those abilities (and not everyone does). Sure, he might end up taking a lot of damage as he waits for the opponent to mess up, but that doesn't change the fact that he has more health than the other characters and that if they took the exact same hits, they would be even more damaged than he is.
I also pointed out that tanking damage to wait for his chance is specifically how Abigail's gameplay work. Abigail has Super Armor attacks that are intended to let him take damage while either getting closer or starting one of those INSANELY damaging combos I mentioned before. As Walrus says Abigail may not "want" to get hit, and he may not "want" to be on the defensive, but his entire gameplay rests upon waiting out an opponent while they damage him so that when he gets his hands on them, he can absolutely demolish them.
My apologies for the length of this query, but I wanted to bring everything to attention before anyone responded. I'm about to go to bed in a few moments, so if anyone needs me to chime in, I'll be back in a few hours.
Also, both Darth Walrus and Red Rover Red Rover have been invited to participate.
Thank you.
Edited by NubianSatyressopenImage for Music/MeganTheeStallion Music
Andiman keeps changing the Image for the page without a given reason. Said image he changes it to is too big for the page and it’s a selfie. I tried making a thread but nothing has been done about it.
openSuspicious Example on Quotes / Insult Backfire
Troper nm3youtube added a very suspicious example on the Quotes.Insult Backfire page. The following example reads...
Does this fall under Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment? The very content the example says looks very controversial.
Courtesy link here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Quotes.InsultBackfire
openRegarding the main ''Endgame'' quote Film
There seems to be an Edit War regarding the main quote for Avengers: Endgame but it primarily has to do with satisek repeatedly changing the main quote to "Part of the journey is the end." This happened four times already even after the tropers tried expanding Iron Man's initial quote.
The previous quote before the change is: "We lost. All of us. We lost friends. We lost family. We lost a part of ourselves. Today, we have a chance to take it all back. You know your teams, you know your missions. Get the stones. Get them back. One round trip each. No mistakes. No do-overs. Most of us are going somewhere we know. That doesn't mean we should know what to expect. Be careful. Look out for each other. This is the fight of our lives... and we're gonna win. Whatever it takes."
Which quote do you guys do you think best describe the movie itself? Personally, I like Captain America's quote much better.
Edited by Loekman3

Slug39terra
unilaterally changed Deadpool's character section in Characters.Death Battle Season Six to be all first person. Can I request a revert here?
Also can we leave all first-person troping to Self-Demonstrating pages?
Edited by JRads47