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openAvoiding an Edit War on YMMV.PokemonSwordAndShield
On an entry for They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character, I edited the following, as it seemed overly complainly and the character in question is retiring and their character arc follows their granddaughter preparing herself for the role while fretting about if she is good enough:
- Professor Magnolia also qualifies, despite being the region's main professor. Her granddaughter Sonia essentially fills her role of professor despite being an assistant until she officially takes Magnolia's place. Seeing as she studies the Dynamax phenomenon and is well acquainted with Macro Cosmos (and Chairman Rose) to the point of collecting wishing stars for them, you'd think she'd have more involvement in the story.
I removed the "Seeing as she studies the Dynamax phenomenon and is well acquainted with Macro Cosmos (and Chairman Rose) to the point of collecting wishing stars for them, you'd think she'd have more involvement in the story."
Maths Angelic Version added it back, with the edit reason of "1) Don't delete opinions just because you don't think so. 2) Yes, she's retiring, but that doesn't mean her role had to be as small as it was."
I do not feel that this was "deleting an opinion", and rather, just removing something nattery, but I do want to hear others' thoughts on this.
resolved Edit War on YMMV for Codes and Geass: Embracing Your Inner Megalomania
On April 12th, 2021, while reading the forum on Questionable Questing for the fanfic "Codes And Geass: Embracing Your Inner Megalomania", I came across a user under the belief that the author of the fic, Tropers/Trickster_Priest, was applying Ron the Death Eater to the characters of Nagisa Chiba and Shogo Asahina.
- Ron the Death Eater: Like many other fanfics, Chiba and Asahina fall victim to this. Contrasted with canon where, while the two are shown more distrustful of Zero after he abandoned them during the Black Rebellion and appeared unapologetic when he returned, and only betrayed him when given sufficient evidence to suggest he crossed the line, the Geass Order massacre for Asahina and the doctored evidence Schneizel provided for Chiba, here they are depicted as disloyal and belligerent from the outset, not helped by Trollouche going out of his way to antagonize them. For specifics though:
- Asahina is made out to be against Trollouche's leadership from the start, to the point he secretly aids an attempted coup d'etat and alliance with the Chinese Federation, and then subjected to a Uriah Gambit as punishment, said gambit resulting in his death due to Kewell emerging in the Siegfried.
- Chiba regularly badmouths Trollouche, stirred up unrest against the Britannian members of the Black Knights, and attempted to convince Tohdoh to stage another coup while Trollouche was comatose, only failing because Tohdoh had Undying Loyalty to Trollouche and C.C. was listening in, the latter of whom Chiba attacks upon discovering her listening in, only for C.C. to nearly kill as a means of putting the fear of god into her, and only spares her due to Tohdoh promising to kill her himself if she continues her treasonous behavior.
- Butt-Monkey: Ohgi, Asahina, and Chiba all are on Trollouche's shit list because he remembers who was responsible for the betrayal in canon.
- The Chew Toy: Trollouche goes out of his way to provoke people he doesn't like, particularly Chiba and Asahina of the Four Holy Swords. YMMV as to whether he's justified in blaming them for the events of the original timeline or not.
- Rather than step on landmines by commenting in the forums Trickstar Priest, I will just put this here: you are bashing Chiba and Asahina like many other fanfic writers. And remember, please don't remove this just because you disagree.
After adding it, Tropers/shadowwolf75 decided to immediately remove it, their edit reason being:
- Hi, I'm not trickster and you are still wrong; the difference here was Lelouch being more aggressive in calling it out because he remembered they were trouble before, they had NEVER liked him in canon and fucked him over later, and thus it does not fall to the extremes of Ron The Deatheater
- This is a YMMV trope. There are users in the forum who see this to be the case as they call out Trickster Priest for bashing. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you can remove a subjective trope, since you are only a single person. Take it up with trope repair threads if you absolutely must. Otherwise, remove it again, it's officially an Edit War.
While that initially appeared to be the end of it... Trickster Priest edited the page themself using the fact they were the author as justification in blatant defiance of "The Fic May Be Yours, but the Trope Page Is Ours". They additionally accused me of being anirock and doing this just because they didn't agree with "me".
- I however, am Trickster. And you are misrepresenting the situation and ignoring the nuances. And pulling this because I disagreed with your interpretation in the thread on QQ is especially galling.
This has escalated into a full out Edit War, and rather than do something stupid like restore the entry again or argue with Trickster Priest, I decided it prudent to take the matter to ATT, as Trickster Priest is blatantly ignoring Administrivia, and this is not the first time they have done so. And rather than argue as to why the trope doesn't apply, they instead accuse me of misinterpreting things and being a sockpuppet account for a different user with similar objections. So I am requesting ATT to step in to resolve this dispute.
Edited by RebelFalconopenBiased edits on page Anime
On the Sk8 the Infinity page, there was some biased information heavily favoring the ship Reki/Langa. I edited out that stuff last night and told them to add it to YMMV, because the ship isn't canon yet and might not become canon. So far all there's been is typical sports anime fanservice. Today someone added it back saying:
"langa's "ambiguously gay" isn't THAT ambiguous despite being placed under there for now (especially for anime which have to work around censors) so Power of Love fits (he essentially gasps and blushes when asked if he likes reki [question assumed by him], then realizes the "feeling" that makes him fly in ep9). if he suddenly goes "actually no homo bro" out loud in-series it'd be better filed under power of friendship. (unless tvtr doesn't list, ex., nge's kaworu under romantic tropes... he's only Very Heavily implied to be a love interest of shinji.) the power of love + mythical motifs is about his feelings, not reki's. ia the "romantic-tinged" was pretty ham"
I strongly disagree with this. Also another biased thing they put in the page was: "While it's It's apparent that Reki feels as if he can't reach Langa (and the star), unknowingly to Reki and Langa and the increasing tension that builds between them over it, for Langa, the star likely stands for Reki himself)."
For Langa the star didn't hold any significance. It was just a graffiti target on the wall that he could do a cool skateboarding trick with. Reki was the one who worked himself up about the star trying to reach it while Langa wasn't around.
Is there anything I can do? I don't want to be involved in an edit war, but this stuff is just flat out wrong. The user perona keeps edit warring and adding incorrect info to the page.
Edited by sakanoopenWhat exactly counts as a Creator of a work when it comes to tropes covering them.
On the Trivia.Genshin Impact page, I added a Teasing Creator example yesterday specifically about a Tweet of another game's official Twitter account (of Honkai Impact 3rd) replying to a topic about this game (GI). I originally worded in it a way that mentions the official HI3 Twitter account playing along with the "Multiverse/Crossover/collab theories or Epileptic Trees in the two related fandoms.
However ~coconutkirin deleted the part about the Tweet with the edit reason of "I don't consider the official account admins as "god" enough for this example to count".
I PM'd coconut as well, but I'll just create an ATT regarding the scope/limitations of Teasing Creator regardless.
Although their edit reason might sound YMMV because of the phrase "I don't consider" (but I myself consider the official account as a source), now I'm actually confused on what source does or doesn't count within the context of that trope.
Are Twitter accounts valid for Teasing Creator or not? What if one troper doesn't consider them as a source but another troper does? Because I consider the official Twitter account as an official source for "Creator" tropes, I would personally restore the example I added before. But since it was deleted because another troper doesn't consider the official Twitter account for the example, which is which? Or, based on their edit reason, what is considered "god" enough for Teasing Creator examples to be counted?
I added that Tweet to Teasing Creator simply because I saw other Teasing Creator examples that use official Twitter accounts, or use general statements regarding the company. For example, the trope page lists the following:
- In January 2018, Nintendo fans were anxiously awaiting the announcement of a rumored January 11th Nintendo Direct.note Nintendo Directs are online videos that detail upcoming content for Nintendo systems Yes, not the video itself, but the announcement that there would be one. The fanbase threw themselves into an absolute fervor, with cries of "Reset the clock!" occurring every hour for days in anticipation. Eventually, Nintendo of America acknowledged this on January 10th... by posting a picture of Chibi-Robo! on fire
. (The source is the official Twitter account)
- My Little Pony example - Before Season 3, people who worked on the show posted spoilers on their Twitter accounts. These spoilers were the fact that the new season would be cute and would contain ponies. (Mentions "people who work on the show.. posted on their Twitter accounts".).
open Huge edit on The Mandalorian with some issues
Yesterday Schnikeys made a truly massive edit to Series.The Mandalorian, changing over 80 lines. This was the edit reason given:
There's a bunch of things to talk about here. First, the edit summary leaves out mention of a large number of tweaks such as inserting potholes, adding natter, justifying edits, rewriting entries to be more favorable to certain characters and more critical to others, etc.
The absurdly large number of changes, many of which are relatively minor and mixed in with legitimate cleanup edits, means digging up and listing everything would take ages, but here's the biggest issue - an enormous wall of text appended to this already long trope entry, in blatant "justifying edit" / "conversation in the main page" manner:
- Cult: The Mandalorians of the enclave are so fanatically devoted to the old ways of Mandalore that they won't remove their helmets for any reason while in public and consider someone else attempting to remove it a grave insult. Not even Death Watch was that bad. In contrast to Death Watch, however, their traditions are focused on preservation of their culture, as opposed to battle for the sake of it. Chapter 11 confirms that they are indeed a religious cult, as Mando meets Bo-Katan and learns that most other Mandalorians do not actually follow such extreme ideals as refusing to remove their helmets in public. It is further revealed that they are called the Children of the Watch, suggesting they were actually started by the remnants of Death Watch, or Mando's sect and Death Watch stem from a common ancestor splinter-faction of Mandalorians.
- Subverted (or possibly outright averted) in that the customs of Mando’s Tribe are completely practical in light of the very recent Great Purge. Due to Chapter 8, we know that the Empire (and subsequently the Imperial remnants) has access to the personal information of ''every’’ Mandalorian registered on Mandalore at the time of the genocide — definitely including their names, since that’s how Moff Gideon knew Mando’s, and probably including their faces as well. Just about every other episode features someone either groping Mando’s armor or outright trying to steal it off of his body: if you take off your armor, it’ll probably be the last thing you do. Chapter 8 shows that a group of Mandalorians appearing in public together is enough to bring an Imperial pogrom down on the covert: of course they only appear one at a time. Tossing your name and/or face around is probably enough by itself to paint a big stormtrooper-shaped target on your back: of course you wouldn’t be able to go back to a highly-confidential location where your persecuted minority is hiding your children after that kind of security breach. Add all of that to the fact that in Chapter 4, Mando is very clear about the fact that wearing the armor is a completely voluntary choice and that no one in his community is going to come after him for leaving their group, even though he’s their primary provider… suddenly, the covert looks a lot more like refugees in a surveillance state than a [[Cult cult]].
EDIT: Another user has pointed out that the troper has also been adding non-YMMV items to the show's YMMV page.
Edited by Dirtyblue929openTLP laconics
A little while ago, I came to ATT to get help because Lord Gro was adamant that the slightly-ambiguous wordering of my laconic meant the TLP itself wasn't ready to launch, despite people pointing out that TLP laconics aren't even used after launching (meaning their sole purpose is to exist on the TLP itself and most people only use them because a bug forces them to
).
I thought it was all resolved, but now they're complaining about the laconic on One Mistake, Endless Mockery
. Now, nothing big has really happened yet, and I'll fully admit that I have a bad habit of sparking bigger arguments than I'd really like, but I'm bringing this up now to bring attention to the subject, as it seems they feel that TLP Laconics are real laconics and need to be as carefully crafted as actual laconics are, and this is the second time they've started bickering over it.
Hell, I'll freely agree that the laconic it currently has isn't ideal- but the issue is over whether or not TLP laconics need this much attention despite that they don't launch with the trope itself, and the potential for this to turn into another big issue. I just want this to be handled and discussed without it turning into a flame war like the other debate did.
Edited by WarJay77openMemetic Loser misused (again)?
- Avatar Kuruk. He was a lazy Avatar who was more interested in flirting with girls, showing off, and playing pai sho than he was being the Avatar. He’d finally started to get serious and then got his wife’s face stolen by Koh and then died himself at the ripe old age of 33. Not helping matters is the fact that he’s Avatar Kyoshi’s, the Memetic Badass of the universe, predecessor. She spends most of her novel cleaning up his messes and even she doesn’t really respect him too much.
- Captain Phasma from the same movie also gets this. Pre-release materials set her up to be a mysterious chrome badass, but in the movie she ended up doing nothing but ordering stormtroopers around before she was easily captured by rebels and thrown down a garbage chute. She ended up being completely upstaged in popularity by Nines, a random stormtrooper who yelled "Traitor!" and beat the shit out of a lightsaber-wielding Finn with nothing but a stun baton. The Last Jedi didn't help her cred much since, after coming back with a vengeance, she got defeated in an anti climactic fight against both Finn and Rose (by using the oldest trick in the book, nonetheless) and seemingly falls to her death.
- Rogue One: Director Krennic. His character arc in the movie can be very accurately summed up as "Krennic gets yelled at by his superiors for two hours" or "Krennic has a very bad day". Even in-universe Darth Vader clearly sees him as an incompetent loser, an opinion rather well supported by Krennic showing up at Vader's home on Mustafar in the middle of the morning to bitch about a coworker (Tarkin).
- The Last Jedi: The MG-100 Star Fortress SF-17 bomber, whose only screentime in the movie has a wing of them getting blown up in the process of destroying a First Order Star Dreadnought; in particular, a single TIE Fighter crashing into one Star Fortress leads to a chain reaction that sends several of them up in flames. As a result, they're seen as worse flying coffins than TIE Fighters.
- Its director himself, Rian Johnson. A popular meme mocking his infamous writing-style is "If Rian Johnson Directed [...]" - where an iconic part from another film abruptly ends in an absurd Anti-Climax/Shocking Swerve.
- Avatar Kuruk. He was a lazy Avatar who was more interested in flirting with girls, showing off, and playing pai sho than he was being the Avatar. He’d finally started to get serious and then got his wife’s face stolen by Koh and then died himself at the ripe old age of 33. Not helping matters is the fact that he’s Avatar Kyoshi’s, the Memetic Badass of the universe, predecessor. She spends most of her novel cleaning up his messes and even she doesn’t really respect him too much.
Memetic Loser is about unfairly exaggerated loser reputations, this is all objective loserdom. Expect for Rain Johnson who's noted to be memetic, but I find applying it to a real life individual suspect of complaining. Cut? Does this trope warrant a cleanup thread yet?
openFridge horror on Arthur Western Animation
Found this on Arthur:
- D.W. becomes much more disturbing as a character when you realize that her treatment of Arthur and her behavior in general, despite her being only 4, is actually eerily consistent with a sociopath. She tends to see anything she wants as good and anything she doesn't want as bad, believes she is entitled to whatever she wants, is a Manipulative Bitch (often tricks others to get her way), is known to have outbursts, and seems to be learning to do what is socially expected of her even when she herself doesn't think she needs to do it but shows a complete lack of genuine empathy (for example, her Backhanded Apology in "Arthur's Big Hit", where she apologizes to Arthur for breaking his model plane when ordered to do so but doesn't actually feel guilty for it and still sees it as Arthur's fault for building the model wrong, therefore seeing anything "bad" as the fault of anyone but herself), and in general actually seems to enjoy making Arthur's life a living hell. So if she's already this sociopathic at four, what is she going to turn out like as a teen and adult!? Not to mention how this easily makes her one of the, if not the, most disturbingly fucked up characters to ever grace an Edutainment Show.
- While it's not canon, the You Tube video series Adult Arthur by AOK takes the "what will she be like as an adult" part and runs with it. It's not pretty.
Is this allowed here or no?
Edited by fraggleloveropenSpeculative Troping Western Animation
Beatman 1 has been doing a lot of edits over the past for the Voltron: Legendary Defender page that speculate the intent of why things happen, or add negative weasel words to otherwise unremarkable information, in order to turn it more negative-sounding. For example bringing up that the lack of merchandise is likely due to the creators' personal hatred of the mecha genre, that certain lines of products were possibly poorly received, or canceled due to fan outrage (when poor sales or company mergers and layoffs are as likely of a cause and actually have received press coverage at the time; even so, that constitutes being too speculative to add in itself, and another user who made similar types of entries recently got suspended here and on other pages for blatantly violating the rules), despite no official indications otherwise.
I feel that, due to the notorious amounts of Epileptic Trees regarding this franchise and its creators' intent (of which I have plenty, but which I don't believe is my place to add them), that without some kind of official confirmation as to the motives of company actions, it crosses the boundary into speculative troping since it reads creator intent and malice into a page that is supposed to about recording audience reactions, and thus requires some measure of impartiality, despite the name.
I've had to do a lot of cleanup regarding his edits for negativity bias and it's getting very tiring as he rarely adds anything strictly informative enough to leave alone, and has already had a history of excess negativity towards the series to the point of thumps on the forums, and has been found to have engaged in unsolicited harassment of fans of the work on other social media.
I mentioned in the past about a tendency of his to use the page as a soapbox for his Single-Issue Wonk with the show, as well as bring it up in threads and pages for unrelated works, even bringing up arguments from people he's otherwise violently opposed to due to his vocal hatred of their taste for same-sex shipping in order to bash it, but I don't think it's safe for me to PM him knowing this now for fear of inviting said harassment onto myself.
Edited by AlleyOopopen Excessive (?) gushing Film
Awesome.Avengers Endgame features several paragraphs of gushing over the movie breaking every box office record and becoming the highest grossing movie ever. To wit:
- The film's box office performance has been nothing short of astounding:
- Most box office prognosticators were cautiously optimistic that it could break $300 million opening weekend in the US, which would handily break Infinity War's record of $257 million, in and of itself a staggeringly high amount of money. It completely obliterated everyone's expectations by making $357 million, $100 million more than its predecessor. Barring some ridiculous future inflation, it's hard to imagine a future movie breaking the box office record by a 9-figure sum.
- Endgame became the first movie ever to gross one billion (with a "B") dollars in its opening week! $1.2B to be exact, which is almost double what Infinity War did on its opening. This also makes it the second entertainment product to do so, outside of Grand Theft Auto V.note And of course, being a AAA video game which costs $60 rather than just the cost of a movie ticket, GTA V has a massive unfair advantage there. To put simply, it became the highest grossing movie of 2019 and the 18th-highest grossing movie of all time in four days, and it's even more impressive when one takes the film's heavy Continuity Lock-Out into account.
- As of its opening Sunday (28 April 2019), Endgame broke 144 records
.
- It became the highest grossing import movie in China ever in just a week. It hit $500 million there the Thursday after release, blowing past the original record holder The Fate of the Furious's $392 million total haul.
- After just 12 days into its worldwide release, Endgame not only surpassed $2 billion
(becoming the second comic book movie to do so), but also blew past Avengers: Infinity War, The Force Awakens, and James Cameron's Titanic to become the second-highest grossing movie of all time. In turn, this makes the MCU the first franchise to have two $2 billion grossing movies under their belt, unadjusted for inflation.note If you do adjust for inflation, then it's second only to Star Wars, but it's still impressive either way.
- Crossing over with Heartwarming, Cameron himself, a man infamous to MCU fans for his comments about "superhero fatigue", congratulated Marvel Studios
for surpassing Titanic:
@JimCameron: An Iceberg sank the real Titanic. It took the Avengers to sink my Titanic. Everyone here at Lightstorm Entertainment salutes your amazing achievement. You've shown that the movie industry is not only alive and well, it's bigger than ever!
- Crossing over with Heartwarming, Cameron himself, a man infamous to MCU fans for his comments about "superhero fatigue", congratulated Marvel Studios
- In 20 days, it grossed 2.5 billion. The only other film that achieved this was Avatar, and it took 72 days to get to that point.
- Then 89 days after release (July 20th, 2019), Endgame went above and beyond any other record it's broken prior to this point, and officially surpassed Avatar as the highest-grossing movie of all time.note worldwide, not adjusted for inflation, and the first sequel to do so. The last few weeks prior to this achievement were nail-biting, because even with the re-release in theaters it was clear that it'd be a photo finish either way... and yet it happened regardless. In fact, it happened with such perfect timing that Kevin Feige himself got to announce it during the Marvel panel at San Diego Comic Con. You'd swear it was pre-ordained from the heavens to work out this way.
- Once again, Cameron congratulates Marvel Studios for passing Avatar
:
@JimCameron: Oel Ngati Kameie, I see you Marvel. Congratulations to Avengers Endgame becoming the new box office king!
- Once again, Cameron congratulates Marvel Studios for passing Avatar
Do we really need all that info?
openEdit War on YMMV/Super Smash Bros Ultimate
In YMMV.Super Smash Bros Ultimate I removed an addition to the sole Ending Fatigue example by wrpen99 due to it being more about an example of That One Achievement, which is already listed on the page, and because it was on a separate bullet instead being added onto the example itself, I noted both in the Edit Reason, though I neglected to also mention the complaining nature of the edit. I also sent them an Example Indentation notifier before the removal.
They readded their edit, again on a separate bullet, with the part that was already under That One Achievement removed, but what remains still doesn't have anything to do with Ending Fatigue and reads more like complaining about an Ear Worm.
Edited by homogenizedopenDub Name Change mass deletions
Wayyyy mass deleted a vast majority of examples of Dub Name Change (especially on their newly-created subpage DubNameChange.Japanese To English) calling them ZCEs even as they were legitimate examples (most were "X in Japanese was called Y in English", which is sufficient context since it self-explanatorily demonstrates that a name change did occur).
Then he posted a big bold notice stating not to add every name change across different versions of a work. This baffles me, since it's not a trope omnipresent enough that straight examples should be banned (since not all works will change character names in translation and not everyone's name even if they did).
The folderization is appreciated but the examples deletion is way too far.
This was not the only time Wayyyy has wiped an examples section out of the blue.
openSophia127 Unilaterally Changing Images and Captions
Sophia127 has been making unilateral changes to images and image captions and I don't want to edit war, so I'm saying something here. Courtesy link
to edit history. There are other problematic edits.
Berrenta has already sent a PM
about one page, but there are multiple pages involved. And now another thread
has been made to correct the unilateral change.
Images and image captions (some of these might be better images, tbh, but they were apparently done unilaterally):
- On Attending Your Own Funeral, she changed the caption to pothole to Not Quite Dead, so now there's no link to Sesame Street.
- NightmareFuel.Battle For Dream Island: Unilaterally changed image and caption. (Caption has sense been unilaterally changed.)
- Assembly Line Fast-Forward: Changed caption.
- Screaming Tropes: Changed image from the famous Scream to... some kids' show.
- TearJerker.Inanimate Insanity
- Ugly Cute: She potholed the image to Real Life, which... seems like a sinkhole given our Real Life article is mostly just for fun.
- Added the image to Woobie.Inanimate Insanity, and I'm really only including this here because there's nothing woobie-like about the characters in the image...
Other issues:
- Characters.Inanimate Insanity: ZCE (Sarcasm Mode)
- Laconic.Nothing Left To Do But Die: Using the phrase "Kill yourself at the main page" is not funny.
- Laconic.Piss Take Rap: Undid the joke to be just "Troper gang" over and over again.
- Laconic.Im Not Afraid Of You: Unilaterally added a second laconic, which is a depracated practice. Moreoever, their added laconic matches the stock phrase without matching the trope.
- YMMV.Smile: Replaced a "Sarcasm Mode" pothole with an "I'm Not Afraid of You" pothole, using it like a troper verbal tic.
It's pretty much every other edit, tbh.
openEdit War regarding Authors Saving Throw entry on YMMV/Metroid Dread.
For context, Other M is notorious for a scene in which the female protagonist Samus enters an area with deadly high temperature despite having a suit modification (Varia Suit) that lets her survive in extreme temperature. She does this until her former commanding officer, Adam, authorizes her to use the Varia Suit, almost dying in the process. In particular, fans were very upset that Samus obeyed Adam's orders not to do anything until he authorized her (she is no longer his subordinate at the time of the game) and that Adam waited until Samus almost cooked to death to give her said authorization.
Salmon Aran has made edits based on a recent "discovery" which claims that the English localization was to blame for that last sentence; in the Japanese version (allegedly, since I don't speak the language), Adam never orders her not to use her abilities and he never knew Samus was in that area until moments before he authorized the Varia Suit. End of context.
Salmon edited a Author's Saving Throw entry on YMMV.Metroid Dread that tries to differentiate the scene between the English and Japanese versions. Basically, constantly using terms like "English version" or "English fans" or "English Adam".
Given that Other M has been getting
more attention
here on ATT since the release of the newest game in the series, I specifically rewrote entry to remove the distinction between the English and Japanese versions of the game, because that seems to be a touchy subject and isn't really necessary to understanding the entry. Basically, regardless of the translation, the fans still find the idea that Samus would run into a heated area until authorized to use her Varia Suit to be pretty ridiculous and thus hilarious that ADAM's AI replacement warns her NOT to do that. I was trying to rewrite the entry to make the version distinctions irrelevant but Salmon re-added said distinctions
again with the edit reason:
Again, though, I think the entry can be written in a way where what's "canon" is irrelevant. Whether Adam intended it or not, the fact remains that Samus entered a deadly area and refused to use equipment that could save her life until he authorized it, whereas in Dread, the AI ADAM basically tells Samus not to do that immediately after she comes across a heated area.
Edited by NubianSatyressopen Quotes.TheHorseshoeEffect -- breeding ground for bad faith "both-sidesing"
Quotes.The Horseshoe Effect is picking up a lot of quotes which can be summed up as bad faith "both-sidesing" on political issues.
For those unaware "The Horseshoe Effect" is a political theory that both extreme-left (Communist state) and extreme-right (Fascist state) are basically the same thing (Authoritative Tyranny). For example, comparing the "extreme collectivism" of Japan, where you're supposed to follow the group or be shunned and shamed....with the "extreme individualism" of the US, where you're supposed to follow the ideal of being your own person or be shunned and shamed.
However, the theory has major problems with being misused as an argument for extreme centrism (aka Golden Mean Fallacy) or as a method of "Whataboutism" and "Both-sidesing" on issues like social justice or systemic oppression.
For example, quite a few claiming that being racist and caring about racism are the same thing.
I don't think the entire page needs to be scrubbed, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. But I do think something needs to be done to clean up the page, and I didn't want to make unilateral decisions.
openHostile deletion reason
Very Peeved deleted this on Gone Horribly Right:
- Brexit was this for many people that didn't see the consequences of what they campaigned for. Here are a
few
examples
.
With this edit reason:
if you're gonna put this shit in here, at least put some damn effort into it. a single line and a couple of links is not on. D- apply yourself.
Now I do feel like maybe Gone Horribly Right should probably be a No Real Life Examples, and failing that perhaps this example crosses the line of Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement. All that being said that edit reason was needlessly hostile.
Edited by jjjj2open Designated Hero Edit War
DesignatedHero.Anime And Manga
- The protagonists of Dragon Ball are treated as great, lovable people, but they often veer into this. Vegeta in his earlier days put the entire planet on the line for the sake of one-upping Goku, who isn't really a saint himself, more often than not prioritizing fights over just about anything else, even when it endangers entire worlds just for the sake of a fair fight. He also has a habit of taking Honor Before Reason to its infuriating extreme, not only letting the villains get stronger just for a fair fight, but even giving said enemies Senzu Beans to heal their injuries. Unfortunately, this gets heavy Flanderization in Super when he causes other people grief, his reactions range from ignorant to pushing aside their concerns. The biggest example is when he's called out for making the Tournament of Power a thing, something that caused distress and anger of many, many people. He's called out on this, and he simply tells them to bring their strongest fighters. The Secret Test of Character twist doesn't alleviate how appalling he acts about this tournament he started. He then pushes his stupidity further by reviving Frieza, a dreaded who is known for decimating entire planets just for his own gain, for this tournament, then the protagonists let him run free, even though he'll just kill more innocent people and force countless more under his boot, something neither Goku, nor the other fighters, have any intention to stop. He wasn't meant to be a good person, but it's difficult for some to want him or the others to succeed when they act like this.
- Additionally, the Z-Fighters sometimes revive all the people on their world who get killed in their scuffles. That being said, there are plenty of men, women, children, and alien civilizations that got destroyed by Vegeta or someone else, and they were never brought back. Yet no one really punishes Vegeta for his actions beyond dying once for unrelated reasons and getting his shit kicked in.
- The other fighters aren't any better. 17 and 18 are pretty much told their universe is at stake, and the only way to save it is to win a tournament. 17 takes quite a long while to change his mind, initially deciding to just stay in his animal preserve, despite having a wife and child, and 18 wants to ditch the tournament when she discovers there's no cash prize. This is the team you're supposed to root for by the way.
- This really goes even beyond the main fighters. Bulma has spent a good chunk of her screentime over the years flirting with men in front of her boyfriend, but gets pissed when a woman shows interest in him. Master Roshi also spent years being appallingly perverted, even groping and feeling up multiple women, and once asked a teenage Bulma to flash him. Oolong acts like a perverted freak. Beerus is a lazy god who enabled (and is known for carrying out) mass decimation of life. The list goes on.
Troper ToonFreak added the first version of Themis entry in January and it seems like they're the only ones editing/adding it to its current state since.
This 9th this month AMassiveOvereditor deleted it citing "Designated Hero is about the narrative and all the characters in a story treating the "heroes" as unambiguously good for their actions even if they are several horrendous crimes. Goku, Vegeta, and everyone else in the cast are called out on their flaws, sometimes multiple times, other times just a couple. You're thinking of base breaking characters and even then, some of the examples don't have nearly as much of a divide to qualify, others you are just describing one flaw and saying it automatically qualifies them for this, which again, it does not." ToonFreak added it back yesterday without alterations citing "Clarified because they belong on this list." which I believe fails to address the arguments for it's removal.
Thoughts?
openNo Way Home: What An Idiot Film
I noticed that WhatAnIdiot.Marvel Cinematic Universe Films (specifically for Spider-Man: No Way Home) has a moment where Spider-Man tries to Save the Villain by preventing a bunch of old bad guys from dying while fighting other versions of himself. Could this really be considered a stupid thing to do? It felt like Peter was just being an All-Loving Hero since he practices Thou Shall Not Kill. While it DID have consequences, he was ultimately successful in saving all of them, albeit with help from his counterparts. It seemed like Dr. Strange was just holding the Jerkass Ball by showing the villains No Sympathy. They could've worked together, but Strange complicated things by claiming You Can't Fight Fate.
Edited by 227someguyopenAbout Franchise-wide example subpages and inconsistency
I've been really wanting to bring this up for years, but only had enough info to say it now.
If a trope or YMMV lists examples for the entire franchise and its installments... what's the best way to deal with examples that are already in the specific installments' pages? Take Memes subpages and the Memetic Mutation examples in this case, Should we...
- Duplicate the examples in both the specific installment's YMMV page and the series-wide subpage?
- Prioritize the series-wide subpage and simply leave a link towards it in the specific installment's YMMV page?
- Put the examples only in the specific installment's YMMV page?
- Make a Memes subpage for that specific installment and have it separated from the series-wide Memes subpage?
I've seen a lot of inconsistency when it comes to these pages, especially the Memes, Shout-Out, and Fan Nickname subpages. The problem is that one list may have entries not found in the other list, or that there may be redundant examples.
For context, this is what I observed in Memes subpages alone:
- Memes.Persona exists (which includes memes for specific games like Persona 3 and Persona 3 Reload), but YMMV.Persona 3 and YMMV.Persona 3 Reload have their own lists of Memetic Mutation examples.
- Memes.Resident Evil groups the memes found in the original games and their remakes. There's already a list there for Resident Evil Village... and yet another Memes subpage, Memes.Resident Evil Village, exists for that game.
- Memes.Castlevania lists memes for the games, and yet there's a separate Memes page for the Castlevania (2017) Netflix adaptation, found in Memes.Castlevania 2017. Notice how Memes.Castlevania does not even link the adaptation's own Memes subpage.
- Memes.League Of Legends lists memes for the main LoL game and its E-sports scene, but at least the intro immediately tells the reader that there's a separate Memes.Arcane page for the Arcane show.
- Memes.Metal Gear also lists memes for the entire franchise, the YMMV.Metal Gear Rising Revengeance page links there, but there's a redirect
implying that Revengeance used to have its own Memes subpage. The edit history confirms it did
, and a discussion about it was posted via an ATT query
(a troper named GRD made that game-specific subpage, but discussion agreed to have troper Amonimus turn it into a redirect to the series-wide Metal Gear memes page).
- Memes.Devil May Cry has been the "centralized" page for all memes of the Devil May Cry franchise. The Page Info says it existed since November 2018 and several DMC tropers (including myself) have been adding and updating meme entries in just that page to maintain consistency. However, it seems like some tropers already, pre-emptively added a Memetic Mutation entry for Adi Shankar's upcoming Devil May Cry (2025) show in its YMMV.Devil May Cry 2025 page. Shouldn't it be moved to Memes.Devil May Cry instead?
There may be plenty more questions that I'd still like to ask (such as "When's the right time for a specific installment's examples to be separated from the franchise-wide subpage?"), but at this point, it's disappointing to see how TV Tropes is very inconsistent when it comes to listing Memes and handling franchise-wide subpages, especially when you now have installment(s) with three pages for its Memetic Mutation examples... (Looking at you Memes.Persona, YMMV.Persona 3 and YMMV.Persona 3 Reload).

I found these examples recently added by Rebelion Roja on Guilty Gear and I'm not sure about any of them:
For Misaimed Fandom, is this true about Bridget? From what I've seen and heard he didn't seem to be all that depressed about looking like a girl, just wanting to prove himself as a man, nor do I remember anything stating his sexual preference. I do feel that What An Idiot seems like it's complaining about a character point regarding Bridget when I think it should be more akin to certain moments like for example, a hero has a perfect opportunity to defeat a villain but doesn't for no good reason. As for Venom, I'm not sure. He started off as a villain, but is known for his relationship with Zato-1, and while he does hate Millia, he only tries to kill her after Zato orders him and only goes after her for personal reasons after Zato's death. Are these okay?