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open Is there a trope for.... Videogame
Is there a trope for video games where developers seem to anticipate a player will try a certain strategy, and design the level to make that strategy more difficult to implement than it seems? Or if they design the level to punish a certain kind of play, even if it's just the player being careless and not anticipating the consequences of their actions? Kaizo Trap seems close, but it's specifically about victory or completion, I'm thinking more in the general course of gameplay. Batman Gambit works but is very broad as a trope, and it may or may not be Developer's Foresight depending on the exact example.
As two examples that would fit what I'm thinking of:
- In Hitman, the water tower on Colorado seems like the perfect spot to snipe targets from. But if you try it you'll find yourself trapped, as the AI will instantly surround the water tower and pin you down there with no hope for escape.
- In Dissidia Final Fantasy, the last level of an optional dungeon lets you challenge your Assist character to access two chests behind them. But if you do that, you'll have no Assist when fighting the boss Gabranth, and he has a very potent EX Mode build (Assists as a mechanic hard-counter EX Mode, but you just killed your Assist).
openMinecraft YMMV Videogame
A big majority of the YMMV subpages for Minecraft such as Awesome, Funny, and Heartwarming, are mainly just stories about things other players did and put online and have nothing to actually do with the game itself. Is that allowed?
openDoes Dummied Out apply here? Videogame
This example of Dummied Out is on the page for Animal Crossing: New Horizons:
- Dummied Out:
- Data for the Sanrio villagers exists in New Horizons, but the villagers aren't currently used, possibly being intended to be added to the game in future updates. The other Welcome amiibo-introduced villagers, however, have no data for them whatsoever.
- Museum room IDs exist
for a cafe (presumably the Roost) and a Gyroid exhibit. ID data also exists for a two-room art exhibit, but this was eventually implemented into the game itself via the Nature Day update, implying that the cafe and Gyroid exhibit will be made accessible to players somewhere down the road.
- Another dataminer
found even more info about dummied content. There's an unused shopping menu for the Museum (presumably the shop that was previously seen in New Leaf), as well as "Real Estate" and "Gallery" shops of unknown purpose. Data relating to diving and deep-sea creatures (from New Leaf) that may also tie into a third unused "Seafood" section of the Critterpedianote The manila clam is the only entity in this category which was implemented in the game at launch, vegetables that can be harvested, and recipes for cooked dishes and clothing were also found among the game's files. Finally, there's also data for a third Nook's Cranny upgrade.
- The same miner also found Leif's garden shop, the return of bushes and artwork, and Redd's Treasure Trawler before their proper release in the Nature Day update. The "private beach" where Redd docks is referred to as "Nつねきち" ("NTsunekichi") in the game's files, with Tsunekichi being Redd's Japanese name.
The problem is, New Horizons is a game that's being continuously updated with new content. As stated in the example, some of the items that were listed as Dummied Out have already been added to the game through content updates, and it's likely that more of them will be in the future. Since Dummied Out appears to deal specifically with content that was cut from a game, should examples be listed if there's still a reasonable chance that they could be added to the game?
openTierInducedScrappy Edit War Videogame
A while ago, I added an entry to the YMMV page for Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn regarding Tier Induced Scrappy for a Crutch Character named Sothe.
Around March 4th troper Slimeshady adjusted the entry to be arguing with itself by making it talk about how he "used to be seen as one" and is now defending the character. I will put it under a note so it doesn't fill too much of this space out note Sothe used to be this. He's this game's equivalent to a Jagen, despite his decent growths, and has by far the worst third tier class (terrible stat caps including a measly 28 strength cap, and being restricted to knives, which are the weakest weapons in the game), and having a mastery skill that just leaves opponents at 1 HP with no additional effects while all other mastery skills do such egregiously high damage that they may as well outright kill. To make matters worse he has a forced promotion that doesn't occur until after you already completed the first Part 4 chapter, meaning he doesn't even get to be a third tier unit in one of his two pre-Endgame Part 4 maps, so you can't even raise him enough to be somewhat useful for some of Part 4 and he is going to be even farther behind when he does finally promote before you consider his awful caps. The biggest sticking point with players, though, is the fact Sothe is a forced unit throughout much of the game, and is mandatory to bring along into the endgame, where his class limitations make him nigh-useless; the last one is especially bothersome to fans of Volke, who is an objectively superior knife-wielder to Sothe (his base strength is greater than Sothe's maximum strength with comparable speed, while his mastery skill is a guaranteed death blow with the same activation rate), which means to bring Volke along into the endgame would mean having two knife-wielders among your limited units (while there's also only one SS knife in the game). In more recent times though as Jagens are looked at much more favorably by the community, the receptions to Sothe has changed, as Sothe is so indispensable in Part 1 and the DB's Part 3 missions (i.e. the hardest parts of the game), and that by the time he loses his usefulness, it doesn't really matter when you have so many other overpowered units to pick up the slack. Tier lists covering the game as a whole will generally put Sothe in the top tier as he is just so good in Part 1, and without him the early Part 1 maps would be insanely difficult on Hard/Maniac, while when the other Crutch Characters join in later Part 1 he still stands out for his great movement, strong 1-2 range with forged Knives, and all the thieving duties he can do. That said there are still certainly some people who don't care about Sothe's Part 1 contributions and remain resentful of how irredeemably bad Sothe gets in Part 4 while remaining a forced unit.
I adjusted the entry to be back to how it was before, but I did adjust it a bit to include his usefulness in part 1 so point out where the issues people had with him gameplay wise were. As it was before, it was arguing with itself since the entry said he was a bad unit but not anymore despite nothing changing about the game. Again I have put this entry under a note to save space. note Sothe, primarily after Part 1. He's this game's equivalent to a Jagen, despite his decent growths, and has by far the worst third tier class (terrible stat caps including a measly 28 strength cap, and being restricted to knives, which are the weakest weapons in the game), and having a mastery skill that just leaves opponents at 1 HP with no additional effects while all other mastery skills do such egregiously high damage that they may as well outright kill. To make matters worse he has a forced promotion that doesn't occur until after you already completed the first Part 4 chapter, meaning he doesn't even get to be a third tier unit in one of his two pre-Endgame Part 4 maps, so you can't even raise him enough to be somewhat useful for some of Part 4 and he is going to be even farther behind when he does finally promote before you consider his awful caps. The biggest sticking point with players, though, is the fact Sothe is a forced unit throughout much of the game, and is mandatory to bring along into the endgame, where his class limitations make him nigh-useless; the last one is especially bothersome to fans of Volke, who is an objectively superior knife-wielder to Sothe (his base strength is greater than Sothe's maximum strength with comparable speed, while his mastery skill is a guaranteed death blow with the same activation rate), which means to bring Volke along into the endgame would mean having two knife-wielders among your limited units (while there's also only one SS knife in the game). As to make this worse, Sothe is the only character who doesn't benefit from the bonus stats from the previous game because unlike others who instead gain a flat bonus for any capped stats, Sothe, if data is transferred, instead gains whatever his stats were from the previous game which means its possible he'll be even worse since his max stats in the previous game are only marginally higher than his bases here. His use in Part 1 is good but due to how awkward Part 1 is, using him to even the odds is more of a long term detriment to your units since he can soak up precious experience.
As of 6/14, they readded their entry, added a section under Vindicated by History note Sothe's perception as a unit. With how unsalvagebly terrible he ends up in Part 4 while remaining a forced unit for the entire game that can't even die without triggering a Game Over until the Part 4 endgame, for a long time Sothe got a lot of hatred from fans for being an "EXP THIEF!" that "stole" EXP from the rest of the Dawn Brigade in Part 1, only to become The Load in Part 4 no matter how much investment he got. In Japan he was even a Memetic Loser for his insistence on being Micaiah's "protector" up to the end of the game, while becoming so ineffectual in combat and was more someone who needed the protection himself. However more and more players started realizing that the endgame and max level stats are only a microcosm of an entire game, and that a unit's contribution in the entire game before that very much matters, with it being especially a big plus if that unit can provide that contribution without requiring significant resources. So Sothe, being such a vital unit for Part 1 (especially the first half) and still a useful offensive unit in the Dawn Brigade's Part 3 chapters with his Beastkiller, became much more highly regarded and shot up to the high or even top tier of unit tier lists, and he also got big props for providing that big contribution in what are generally considered RD's hardest maps (while most of Part 4 is generally considered pretty easy, as you have the Game-Breaker Laguz Royals, a third tier near-invincible Ike, and a bunch of other trained up third tier units, so Sothe being bad at that point doesn't really matter). Sothe additionally gets sympathy from fans for his boss conversations with the likes of Ike, Dhegnisea, and Sephiran, where he acknowledges that he is a normal man amongst gods that really doesn't belong, but he'll still try to fight for Micaiah and the little things even if he is hopelessly outclassed. Sothe nowadays is often regarded as one of the best executed "Jagens" in the series, as he fulfills his role of really helping the player during Early Game Hell and other difficult maps, while actually falling off hard later in the game like Jagens are supposed to unlike many other Jagens who remain strong late into the game or are flatout Game Breakers up to the very end., and added this message as the reason: "Not using Sothe in Part 1 becaus he "steals EXP' is a pitfall that makes Part 1 harder than it actually is, use him.".
This is a matter of debate yes and I should have clarified why I adjusted it previously, that was my fault. However this is becoming an argument at this point. I will message this about this but the entries are written in such a way that they come across as very defensive about this unit and its becoming an edit war at this point.
openSlightly suspicious troper Videogame
jamesalan
added a link to an unofficial web port of Five Nights at Freddy's 1 (hosted on y9freegames.com) on the Five Nights at Freddy's Franchise page. This edit strikes me as a bit odd because:
- It's an unofficial link, on a page about the official work.
- The link itself just reads "Online gameplay link" and is thrown in the middle of the spin-offs section of the page, on top of using the wrong formatting (a dash instead of asterisk for a bullet point), which has a bit of a spammy feel.
- Almost all of that troper's edits consist of adding links to web games.
I removed the link since it was out-of-place, but this incident makes the whole y9freegames site seem suspicious to me. The troper added another link to that site on Happy Wheels, which I'm not sure if it's OK or not.
openUndertale cleanup page Videogame
I want to discuss something that's about a general cleanup page for potentially every Undertale page. Specifically, I want to remove lines in articles where the tropers themselves refer the players who do the Genocide route a Complete Monster, or something similar to that, without it being an example of when the game itself is trying to make the player feel like a Complete Monster.
openUpdate Zelda Character Navigation Bar? Videogame
So most of the character pages for Legend of Zelda games have a character/game navigation bar at the top of the page, like so. I saw someone put it on the character page for the upcoming Age of Calamity spin-off game, but not add the game itself to the bar. Which got me wondering if it would be a good idea to update the navigation bar on all the Zelda character pages to include the bigger spin-off games that have such pages, like the Hyrule Warriors games, Cadence of Hyrule, and the CD-i games. (I'd say Ripened Tingle's Balloon Trip of Love as well, but its character page is so lacking, I'm wondering why it even exists.) So should I go ahead and do this?
Edited by RacattackForceopenVideo examples for Let's Player without a page? Videogame
I have a potential video example I want to upload, but it's from a Let's Play by HawkZombie
, who doesn't have a page here. His channel isn't very big yet (he has 359 subscribers right now), and I don't know enough about him to start a page for him.
What's the best way to handle this? Is it okay to only use the game itself as the video source? Can I link to the original video, or the player's channel, in the description?
It has to be from this Let's Play because the trope depends on the player's reaction.
Edited by DrNoPumaopenSamus Aran from Metroid: Soldier or Warrior? Videogame
With regards to the trope Soldier vs. Warrior there is a list of distinguished soldiers and warriors and clashing ideologies listed as examples. If I may submit a question to the more well-read and better-researched Tropers for discussion and consideration:
Is the protagonist of the Metroid series, Samus Aran, as she is currently portrayed in the playable games of the franchise, considered better fitting the Soldier archetype, or the Warrior archetype? Or neither?
I understand that part of her backstory, as depicted in titles such as Other M, as well as in media outside of video games (such as the e-Manga) does place her as a soldier in the Galactic Federation army. However, Other M also depicts that she does get to be a bit headstrong and doubting of orders, with the example given regarding the tragedy of Ian Malkovich's sacrifice by a command decision from Samus's C.O. She may have questioned his order - and her internal monologue reflects this as well - but doesn't disobey his order at all. In this regard, she does - or did - lean towards Soldier.
However, after leaving the Federation, the English canon tells us that she became a "bounty hunter", which we can interpret as just becoming a freelancer and occasional contract mercenary. In Japan, the generally-accepted "closest" translation is "Space Warrior", as she is marked among an elite class of freelancer specializing in missions few can pull off, and in being an expert combatant. However, based on what's in the Soldier vs. Warrior trope page, it doesn't seem like she fits the Warrior archetype much at all. She doesn't really do it for the glory, or to aggrandize herself, or as some test of strength or out of a sense of competition.
But at the same time, she doesn't currently still fit the Soldier role either. She says on occasion that she works alone, by choice, and hasn't worked under direct authority from military C.O.s since leaving the service, with the two exceptions being in Other M and in Metroid Fusion.
So is Samus an example of a zigzagging of this trope? Or some strange deconstruction of it? Or not in this index at all? I'd like to get a well-researched answer, as I just lack the understanding and the nuances of Tropology to really get how to go about answering this.
Thank you ahead of time!
Edited by Miles07openInvoked YMMV Videogame
SasquatchX added this to Characters.Super Smash Bros Ultimate 70 To 75 in the Hero's folder:
- Germans Love David Hasselhoff: Invoked Trope, as the inclusion of Eight among the playables is this. Sakurai makes mention in his interview regarding the acquisition of the Heroes of Eight's status being the one that western audiences are most likely going to recognize.
This isn't proper use of Invoked Trope isn't it? Using it for YMMV items is for when said item occurs within the narrative itself, not when it is used as a reason from Word of God for including something within a work.
Edited by homogenizedopenDoes this fit as Even Evil Has Standards? Videogame
In Poppy Playtime, the corrupt, child experiment supporting evil CEO Leith Pierre, after a catastrophe happens in his factory's theater, does something to a large group of people that another executives questions they had to do. (It's heavily implied the theater burned down and he trapped the the theatergoers inside to protect company secrets, denying them a chance to evacuate and survive). However, it's Leith who people say Even Evil Has Standards applies to.
- Even Evil Has Standards: Leith is a vile man, but he was enraged at Harley Sawyer when Gerad Lockharte accused the latter of causing the Theater Incident [...]
openAre Fandom Rivalry and Friendly Fandoms mutually exclusive? Videogame
On YMMV.Mario Kart World, there's this entry:
- Fandom Rivalry: With Sonic Racing: CrossWorlds, due to the long-time Mario-Sonic rivalry and that both games are looking to expand upon vehicle transformation and otherwise take their respective series in bold new directions.
Seems kind of stubby, just making surface-level comparisons between the two games and the two franchises' history together, but I didn't really question it since Nintendo seems to still get compared to Sega even years after the latter exited the console business.
Then I scrolled down and saw this:
- Friendly Fandoms:
- Despite the historical rivalry and the duel with Sonic Racing: CrossWorlds, Mario Kart World in general has been positively received by fans of Sonic the Hedgehog, due to World's surprisingly robust movement mechanics that seemingly take close inspiration from Sonic itself, namely wall running, "spammable" aerial tricks, and rail grinding. For CrossWorlds specifically, many fans also see it and World as worthy competition which can take the Mascot Racer genre to new heights. It helps that both games are taking different approaches, with Mario focusing on open-world checkpoint racing while Sonic is sticking with circuit tracks.
So which is it? Can both happen at the same time? If not, which do we keep?
openhow much natter is allowed on headscratchers? Videogame
Parts of The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom is reading like a micro-forum as people add replies.
See the entire folder below I pulled from the page (reminder: contains unmarked spoilers):
- Perhaps she doesn't want to be coronated until Hyrule is at least restored to a basically functional kingdom again? Alternatively, she may be awaiting some ceremonial age of majority (as she is still biologically a teenager) or there may even be some kind of ancient dynastic tradition requiring her to complete some ritual, quest, or even just getting married before assuming formal queenship.
- As the original question noted, she's probably not biologically a teenager as years are implied to have passed since the first game, however, it is noted at the start of the game that Hyrule Castle has fallen even further into a state of disrepair. Further, Zelda and Link have been living in a simple home together since the Calamity. Perhaps until the castle is restored Zelda can't officially become queen, or she simply sees other matters as more important for now. The nation was able to hold itself together with just its regional leaders for a hundred years, so presumably there is no hurry to crown a new king or queen.
- Neither Link nor Zelda have gotten noticeably older or taller in the interim, compared to the adult Hylians we meet they're still significantly shorter. However much time has passed between games, it seems very unlikely to have to have been the real life six years.
- Indeed, probably not six years. But Zelda was seventeen before she went into stasis with Ganon. Given Hylians grow and age like humans, she wouldn't likely get any taller (most girls have reached their max height by sixteen). Link might as men can grow for a few more years, but chances are they are both just shorter than average Hylians.
- It seems rather unlikely that both Link and Zelda would have remained exactly the same physically if significant amounts of time had passed. Further, Riju is at an age where she ought to be growing significantly were much time to have passed, and yet, hairstyle aside, she doesn't appear to have changed much. I can see little reason to assume that anything more than a handful of months have passed between the games.
- Hudson and Rhondson (who are introduced to each other by Link during Breath of the Wild) have a daughter that's old enough to read and write (and has the usual "young child" model for the Gerudo), it's undeniably that at least around 5 years have passed, any character that didn't change was just due to the designers not wanting to redesign them. As for the original Headscratchers, Zelda probably doesn't want to get crowned before she's helped the kingdom recover in a more hands on way, or something like that.
- For another bit of proof that Link is older and simply short, he's now able to order the Noble Pursuit drink from the Gerudo that he was regarded as too young for in Breath of the Wild.
- The Noble Pursuit Link can order is specifically stated to be a new recipe that all ages can enjoy; the creator even comments that normally Link would still be too young to drink the old version.
- Which just raises questions about what is it about that drink that requires such a high age. Especially when to my knowledge it is never even said to be alcoholic. Regarding Riju, she did get taller. She was about half a head shorter than Link in the previous game, but now from what I can tell is slightly taller than him.
- It probably is alcoholic, but they wouldn't be able to say as such explicitly without raising the age rating and so just had to imply it.
- As the original question noted, she's probably not biologically a teenager as years are implied to have passed since the first game, however, it is noted at the start of the game that Hyrule Castle has fallen even further into a state of disrepair. Further, Zelda and Link have been living in a simple home together since the Calamity. Perhaps until the castle is restored Zelda can't officially become queen, or she simply sees other matters as more important for now. The nation was able to hold itself together with just its regional leaders for a hundred years, so presumably there is no hurry to crown a new king or queen.
- It could be simply that a royal title doesn't have much priority for Zelda. Given how humble she is, she's probably more concerned with her reasearch, her personal life and helping out everyone, wherever she can. Given how harsh her life was as a princess prior to the calamity, she may even prefer the lifestyle as a commoner, rather than going back to being royalty.
- The above explanation is supported by the fact that Zelda has been living in Link's house in Hateno Village, while in Hyrule Castle there are no signs of her having moved back there.
- It's questionable whether the kingdom of Hyrule even exists anymore. The kingdom was destroyed over a 100 years ago, and ever since then various regions and towns of Hyrule have been self-governing units that work just fine without a higher king/queen above their regional leader. The majority of Hyrulians don't even have any memory of a unified rule, since only among the Zora is there a large number of people who were alive before the Calamity. Considering all this, maybe Zelda doesn't even want to try and restore the kingdom? What right does he have to force her rule on people who have been living without such rule for generations? The reason why everyone still calls her Princess Zelda might be out of tradition, or out of respect for her part in ending the Calamity, not because they still consider her to be their future ruler.
While I understand the game is still new and everyone including me wants to talk about it, but it feels like questions are getting derailed just because parts of the game were missed (which is reasonable given how big the game is) or just segueing into a different discussion entirely.
The original question is just over Zelda's title as princess but it's derailed into a discussion about the time gap between Tears of the Kingdom and Breath of the Wild and other parts of the game with not too much relevance beyond "Zelda should be old enough to be queen".
Is this just normal Headscratchers discussion?
Should I delete the parts that are derailing from the original question? Or should I just move the discussion into a separate folder entirely since I think discussing the game's Time Skip does have some merit.
EDIT: last-minute edit of spoilers, I haven't used this site for a while (specifically ATT) and thought my post would be cut off a little when I posted.
Edited by INeveropenAbout an Edit Reversion Videogame
I was recently sent a warning about example indentation regarding an entry
in VindicatedByHistory.Video Games. Now, I don't disagree with the warning — I actually did make a mistake regarding what I was supposed to do indenting-wise — but since the entry was deleted wholesale, I'm not sure whether re-editing it while fixing the issues would qualify as edit warring.
The edit reason also mentions that a pothole to Condemned by History was misused, which I don't particularly agree with. At the time of its release, if I'm not mistaken, Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Wii U did have a sizable fanbase (including Tournament Play, albeit never as big of a scene as Melee had), and Brawl (which the entry was about) was forgotten by casual players for a while until the release of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate made for 3DS and Wii U's faults stand out in retrospect, rather than being "reviled from day one" like the edit reason says. Am I misremembering?
PS: I'm sorry for being a serial tweaker. I keep second-guessing myself.
Edited by LendriMujinaopenHow to approach adressing a problematic aspect of this work(Little Witch Nobeta) Videogame
Considering addressing the Little devs offical Twitter provocative posts but not sure how to approach it given the account contains explicit posts over the protagonist and bosses.
Mainly because it's worth discussing since the game it's self is rather tame, outisde a few questionable outifts, and takes its self seriously but the offical twitter accounts post brazenly erotic and suggestive posts from time to time enough that it's rather noticeably jarring to compare the two.
Note this is an issue mainly because of this site's stance on "pedobait"
Though on a more minor not sure what tag to use for a "sexual advertisement tame work" kind of thing.
open Fridge Horror issue with Balrog-De-Morgoth Videogame
The other day I added an entry on Fridge.Hogwarts Legacy about the character Ominis Gaunt and how his family's history of inbreeding was likely the result of him being born blind. To me this seemed like a reasonable deduction considering that hereditary blindness from inbreeding has been scientifically observed, but the user Balrog-De-Morgoth removed my entry and asserted that Ominis' blindness had to be magical in nature because many other non-magic diseases and disabilities have magical cures. However, there have been no specific cases in the Wizarding World canon where healing eyes by magic to restore vision has been shown, as evidenced by the various characters that wear eyewear, including Harry Potter himself.
I re-added my entry again and explained my reasoning above, but Balrog-De-Morgoth removed it a second time, this time citing that Pottermore lists cures for non-magical diseases including cancer, but then claimed that because the character of Mad-Eye Moody has a magical replacement eye, that was also reason enough to remove my entry. This is ignoring the fact that Moody's eye is a replacement, not his original eye which was healed, and therefore completely irrelevant my point. While there is also the fact that Ominis' wand reacted specifically to him being blind, this still does not indicate that his blindness is caused by magic since the way wands work is left very mysterious, and Ominis himself states in-game that he was born blind.
Is it alright for me to put my Fridge entry back up? Plus I also feel that removing a Fridge entry because you disagree with it is bad etiquette.
Edited by ChipGoffOfROR

So, for those who don't know, The BumbleKast is a podcast run by semi-famed Sonic the Hedgehog writer Ian Flynn and a close friend of his. From its humble beginnings as a rather standard podcast, it's more recent incarnations have become more frequently about for fun questions from various Sonic fans (myself included). The sticky thing is that it also does occasionally get serious questions pertaining to Sonic lore and due to his increasingly prominent role in the franchise, his answers are frequently treated as Word of God and regularly gets cited on various Sonic trivia pages, even when he makes clear his word only goes so far. And they've had incidents with hostile tropers in the past.
For these reasons, the page would obviously get a huge disclaimer relating to how seriously it is to be taken. I'm wondering if a stricter citation rule would be warranted too. Any other advice before I go forward with it (or if I shouldn't) would be welcome.
Edited by DDRMASTERM