Have a question about how the TVTropes wiki works? No one knows this community better than the people in it, so ask away! Ask the Tropers is the page you come to when you have a question burning in your brain and the support pages didn't help.
It's not for everything, though. For a list of all the resources for your questions, click here. You can also go to this Directory thread
for ongoing cleanup projects.
Ask the Tropers is for:
- General questions about the wiki, how it works, and how to do things.
- Reports of problems with wiki articles, or requests for help with wiki articles.
- Reports of misbehavior or abuse by other tropers.
Ask the Tropers is not for:
- Help identifying a trope. See TropeFinder.
- Help identifying a work. See MediaFinder.
- Asking if a trope example is valid. See the Trope Talk forum.
- Proposing new tropes. See TropeLaunchPad.
- Making bug reports. See QueryBugs.
- Asking for new wiki features. See QueryWishlist.
- Chatting with other tropers. See our forums.
- Reporting problems with advertisements. See this forum topic.
- Reporting issues on the forums. Send a Holler instead.
Ask the Tropers:
resolved Is "needlessly vindicitive" a proper edit reason for removal? Videogame
Black Yakuzu 94 removed several entries from the one of the recap pages
for Fate/Grand Order, claiming to be "removing needlessly vindicitive comments". Their removal of certain tropes from the YMMV page for that recap page but without an edit reason prompts to ask if that is a legitimate reasoning, if the entries were actually that, or if this was a case of agenda based editing.
Removals from the main page:
- Asshole Victim: Even before Morgan's backstory was revealed, the majority of Faeries that the protagonist encounters outside their closest allies are jerks, backstabbers, manipulators, pretenders, violent murderers and worse. And then there's Morgan's backstory which is just an endless cycle of her being betrayed by the very Faeries she's trying to save. It makes her harsh oppression of them as the Queen almost justifiable.
- Kick The Son Of A Bitch: Oberon Vortigern is the final boss and the eventual Arc Villain, and he intends to destroy all of Proper Human History after escaping the Lostbelt alongside killing off Chaldea to keep them from stopping him. Definitely not a good guy in the slightest. But... when he actually accelerated the destruction of the ungrateful Faerie races? And that he boasts that at least he succeeded in destroying Fairy Britain? Well, seeing just how horrific they are, it can be tempting to pat Oberon Vortigern's shoulders and tell him 'job well done'. Same with Cernunnos' reawakening and then giving Oberon Vortigern what he needed to start his plan.
- World of Jerkass: While other Lostbelts are very much definition of Crapsack World, they were inhabited with complicated beings who are capable of both good and bad. This Lostbelt is notorious for having a majority of its inhabitants being selfish, backstabbing, greedy, lazy, ungrateful, manipulative assholes, while decent faeries can be counted with two hands at most and those tend to be met with horrific ends at the hands of the asshole ones. It was these inherent self-destructive tendencies 'in the name of fun' that led the world to ruin (with Morgan adopting tyranny to put up any semblance of order, and even that was only temporary until she was ousted and betrayed). The EX Difference Depth classification of the Lostbelt isn't just for show.
Altered on the main page (Bold portion was removed)
- Downer Ending: While previous Lostbelts all end in a bittersweet note, this one's ending is really bleak. The entirety of the Faerie British Isle is torn to pieces by the Calamities, with the only three characters surviving it until the world's end being Melusine Albion, who is just barely holding herself together, Oberon Vortigern, who is stuck inside the Insect of the Abyss so that it can't escape outside, and Aurora, who is slowly dying anyway. Furthermore, Chaldea's secondary mission to retrieve Rhongomyniad ends up failing as the lances were all used to try to kill Cernunnos and they were unable to save anyone from the Lostworld. Sion also hints in the ending that Chaldea's good luck streak of conquering Lostbelts without casualties is about to end. The only good that came out of it is stopping the world from being destroyed and they were able to get an alternate tool, a physical version of Excalibur, to defeat the Foreign God. There’s also the silver lining that all the malignant Faeries deserved what they got for being such assholes of the highest order and put everyone, including the world itself, through hell for their selfishness and fickle nature.
- Mercy Kill: What the heroes have to end up doing to the few good fairies who really didn't deserve to die
Removed from the YMMV page
- Catharsis Factor: Unlike the first five Lostbelts, the players will probably be very happy to see Cosmos Denial after completing the chapter considering how awful the fae are.
resolved Edit war on the Tear Jerker Kirby and the Forgotten Land page Videogame
Troper Back Set 1 added this entry
to the game's Tear Jerker page on April 11th, 2022:
When Elfilin is kidnapped, he actually calls out Kirby's name (or rather, his Japanese name).
On May 5th, 2022, I altered it to not only correct a grammatical error but also removed the part in brackets - listed above in italics - with the edit summary: "It's literally just the name "Kirby" pronounced as you would in Japanese. It's still Kirby at the end of the day, through and through." The only reason it's said like you would say it in Japanese is because Elfilin's voice actress is Japanese herself and the game was developed in Japan.
And then on March 19th, 2023, BackSet1 edit warred by readding the exact previously removed information in a different form
with the summary: "Just kind of felt this was worth noting."
Personally, I'm in favour of altering the "calls out his name in Japanese" bit to what I did back in May 2022, not only for the reasons I specified over three years ago, but also because Kirby's name is the exact same in Japanese as it is in English. The only differences are how it's often pronounced in Japanese and how it's often written in Japanese. But since I already removed said information the first time it came up, if I were to do it again, I myself would also be in edit war territory and could risk a suspension. As for notifiers, I couldn't find a single one that best fits the situation so I decided to bring up the issue here. Other than that, any advice as to what should be done here?
P.S. As for why I'm only now reporting this over two years later...I just noticed it today and, after noticing it, thought I should bring some attention to this sooner rather than later.
openI'm not sure where to put this? Videogame
Mother 3 has a Player Punch entry that is way too long for its own good.
- Player Punch: A lot.
- In Chapter 1, in a series built around the protagonist usually having a close relationship with their mother during their adventure, it goes against the series expectations that Hinawa, Lucas's mother, is killed very violently.
- You then play the first chapter as Hinawa's husband, Flint. Upon finding out about her death, he goes into a terrifying Heroic BSoD, lashing out at other people in the village until he has to be knocked unconscious in order to be subdued. You then get the lovely experience of becoming Tazmily Jail's first prisoner.
- Claus, Lucas's twin brother, then goes out into the mountains to try and avenge Hinawa. He fails.
- As it turns out, the animal responsible for killing Hinawa was a Drago, a perfectly harmless creature Lucas used to be friends with. It's been "reconstructed" by a strange group of men wearing pig masks, making it aggressive and mindless.
- Oh, and who's in charge of all these Pigmasks? Why, Porky Minch, naturally.
- In Chapter 2, you play as a thief named Duster. And, let's just say, his father is not very satisfied by his thieving abilities.
- In Chapter 3, you play as a monkey named Salsa. He's getting routinely abused by a member of the Pigmask army named Fassad. He spends the chapter being forced to help them with their evil deeds, since his girlfriend is being held captive for leverage.
- In Chapter 4, three years have gone by. Let's just say, one of the biggest RPG cliches of all time has been... horrifyingly subverted.
- Then, at the end of the chapter, when the DCMC sing their goodbyes to "Lucky". It's for the greater good, but you'll feel really terrible for finally getting your last party member.
- Chapter 6. Lucas chases Hinawa's ghost through a field of sunflowers, which are associated with her. It ends with you essentially making Lucas attempt suicide.
- In Chapter 7, you find out about these Plot Coupons called the Seven Needles. Only Lucas and the commander of the Pigmask army, The Masked Man, are capable of pulling them. If Lucas pulls them, the world will be reborn anew and everything will be good and pure. If the Masked Man pulls them, the world will cease to exist.
- And, in that chapter, you manage to only pull three. The enemy ends up getting the rest of them.
- Then there's Tanetane Island. After washing up on the shore during a wreck, your party is weak, starving, and incapable of healing themselves. Since you lost all your items, you have no choice but to eat some funky-looking mushrooms off the ground. Let's just say, it ends very, very badly.
- Then, when you get back home, the town is almost completely empty. Everybody's gone to the big city, save for a few individuals.
- In Chapter 8, we meet up with a fellow named Leder. He was the bell ringer in Tazmily Village, and he never spoke a word to anybody. Now that Tazmily is gone and he has no other purpose in life, he reveals that pretty much everything you thought you knew about the world is a lie. The human race destroyed this world long, long before you started playing this game, and the tiny island you've spent the game on is the only habitable place left on Earth. There is hope, but now the entire world is resting squarely on your shoulders, and the odds aren't looking very promising.
- Then you meet the Pig King himself, Porky. He essentially gives the entire human species a "Reason You Suck" Speech. And considering what you just found out, it'll strike a few chords.
- Hey, remember that Masked Man guy? The one who's been pulling all the other needles and striking you down at any given opportunity, hellbent on bringing the world to an end? It's Claus. Lucas's brother.
- You can't defeat Porky. During the fight, he reveals that his constant abuse of time travel has rendered him immortal. At the end of the fight, he locks himself in a machine called the Absolutely Safe Capsule. However, it's revealed that, once he's in there, he can never get out. Ever.
- The final battle in the game is against the Masked Man. It may just be the most heartbreaking "I Know You're in There Somewhere" Fight ever executed. With your party knocked unconscious, leaving you alone, you cannot fight him. A battle implies a conflict on both sides, but Lucas can't bring himself to hurt his brother. All you can do is guard against his attacks, while a terrifying boss theme that rivals Giygas's in intensity assaults your ears. Forcing you to just try and survive blasts from your own iconic attack, slowly watch as your brother gets weaker until he can't even damage you anymore. And it ends with Claus using your always-dependable Franklin Badge that protects you to deliberately blast lightning so it will deflect back at him, with every intention of committing child suicide. All you can do is hear him apologize for his mistakes as he says goodbye... so he... he can be with his mother...
- The ending. There are no words to say, just the ending.
It's just listing the entire game. I'm not doubting that the game pulls punches on the player, but I think we should probably just have highlights of this item, rather every single time the game has a depressing moment.
Edited by PlasmaPoweropenEdit War in Super Smash Bros. Videogame
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=VideoGame.SuperSmashBros&more=t
Here's a courtesy link.
The troper Dragon Ranger keeps changing the words that describe Dragon Quest's Hero away from noting the "characters" represented. Officially on Twitter, Sakurai does mention he uses specific designs for the characters, while Smash itself does not actually use anything but Hero. We however don't have a release of the character at all. Do note more than one person is involved.
Relevant links;
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=VideoGame.SuperSmashBros#edit23510343
Changed but gave an edit reason as to why by Dragon Ranger. This should've been brought to the Discussion however.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=VideoGame.SuperSmashBros#edit23352709
Changed without an edit reason at all by Senior Cornholio.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=VideoGame.SuperSmashBros#edit23275323
This was beforehand by Dragon Ranger, also with no edit reason. Meaning that he didn't think to actually take it to Discussion at any point. I do not know if he has edit warred before.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=VideoGame.SuperSmashBros#edit23271822
Edited to input the names, by Ause.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=VideoGame.SuperSmashBros#edit23270942
Dragon Ranger is the first one to put the line. Which makes some of this jarring. This is more protecting the article than actually making a proper attempt at discussion.
openBiased Troper (only in regards to Paper Mario, though) Videogame
DarkChirano
seems to have a hateboner for the recent entries of Paper Mario (that is to say, Sticker Star and Color Splash), often being quick to put in information that, while factual, attacks the game, or being biased on the YMMV pages. Although some of it is older, almost all of it is out against the games:
- From early 2016, calling Sticker Star an Obvious Beta for interesting reasons:
Obvious Beta: While the game doesn't suffer any intrinsic technical issues, several basic features such as a secondary stat/meter (which actually was in a beta) or a unique reward type for defeating enemies are not present. Action Command prompts are also missing in action, meaning the player won't know Things have action commands. The programming behind Kersti's advice is also incredibly simplistic, only giving advice by activated event flags, compared to the first two Paper Mario's guides giving advice by the room. This may have to do with the developers scrapping the game twice.
- Attacking the current developers (who made the aforementioned games) as well as producer Kensuke Tanabe on YMMV.Paper Mario (bolded is what they added):
Worse still, some interviews have stated that they've handed over the reigns of the "Mario RPG" completely to the Mario And Luigi series, so there are some serious concerns that, as long as the creative team of the eighth gen games stay in charge, the dork age will literally never end.As has been explained many times, the Toad species have become The Scrappy to the Paper Mario fanbase due to an overabundance of generic Toads with no unique names and no real differences beyond colours or certain outfits. In addition, Toads are almost the only NPCs in both Sticker Star and Color Splash, greatly contrasting with the sheer variety of NPCs that the previous games had. This isn't helped by producer Kensuke Tanabe thinking Toads are the only usable friendly species, nor the fact the other current producers and directors also believe this to be true.
- Adding in more hate for Tanabe as well as the devs on YMMV.Paper Mario Color Splash (once again, bold is a new addition):
An interview
with Kensuke Tanabe revealed that Miyamoto was responsible for the lack of original characters, which was one of the major complaints about the game. However, this same interview also revealed Tanabe went to Miyamoto near-immediately after becoming producer for Color Splash, rather than Miyamoto coming to him. There's also the detail he never mentioned trying to negotiate the character restriction down, even if he couldn't outright say "No".
Risa Tabata also got a fair bit of scorn, getting the same treatment as Miyamoto. This is mainly thanks to the infamous interview with GameXplain, where most answers were either really vague such as "I don’t know if I want to say a proper story–but we have a story" or saying that since there's Mario & Luigi, there's "no need for RPG elements", which caused a massive Internet Backdraft. But at the end of the day, she's simply an assistant producer and not the lead developer, and thus she doesn't deserve some of the hatred she got beyond that interview. It's also worth stating she's mentioned Tanabe's influence a few times.The game itself started development very shortly after the release of Sticker Star, so by the time fans began savaging the revamped gameplay style, Intelligent Systems had put too much work into Color Splash to scrap it and start over. Of course, that in turn leads to the question of post-release patches for mechanic tweaks, such as the ScrappyMechanics mentioned below. - Pointing out that almost every character introduced in Sticker Star "doesn't actually have a name-name" on Characters.Paper Mario and calling it ironic that there are only 5 Toads in Color Splash with real names.
- As stated by lalalei2001, blaming Kensuke Tanabe and Rise Tabata for the whole "making Mario & Luigi the de-facto Mario RPG series" mess on YMMV.Mario And Luigi.
- Continuing the hatred of Tanabe and claiming that he thinks Toads are the only friendly species from the main series on Critical Research Failure.
* The reason why the 8th gen Paper Mario games only have Toads as a recurring friendly species is because producer Kensuke Tanabe thinks they're the only allies Mario has in the main series, and has encouraged his fellow staff to think likewise. Even a quick glance towards early gameplay of several main series games quickly demonstrate the utter falsehood of this belief, with species such as Piantas, Nokis, Jibberjays and Whittles, among many others.
However, their non-Paper Mario related edits seem to have been made by a reasonable person, so I'm not sure what's up, which is why I brought it here.
Edited by MegaMarioManopenWould this be an edit war? Videogame
This was added to Doki Doki Literature Club! by Etheru on November 17:
- Anti-Frustration Features: There's a "skip" button that allows the player to fast forward through dialogue that they've already seen, which significantly helps to streamline the process of getting the Golden Ending for the game. It's also functional when Yuri kills herself in Act 3, since clicking through all of the garbage text takes a while.
I removed it later that day for being a non-example with this edit reason: "I'm not really sure this should count...having a skip button is a standard feature of visual novels, and in Ren'Py in particular, V Ns made with it include it by default—you have to deliberately disable the functionality in order to not allow for skipping. It's a bit like calling the save function an AFF."
A similar example was added to the page by King Lyger, and subsequently edited by them, on December 8. It currently looks like this:
- Anti-Frustration Features: If you load a save from a previous day, the game lets you fast-forward through dialogue you've already seen by either clicking "Skip" or holding down a key. The skip stops automatically when you reach dialogue that you haven't seen yet. The game also lets you skip through a part of Yuri's event in Act 2 after she stabs herself to death, which features nothing but strings of broken font characters.
The third sentence is a valid example, but the rest is essentially the same as the example I removed. I was going to remove that part again, but I thought it might constitute an edit war if I did, even though they were added by two different tropers (and I don't think King Lyger intentionally re-added a deleted example; that page has gotten a lot of edits).
Edited by MissMokushirokuopenTrying to Avoid an Edit War Videogame
Recently, I modified a couple of entries on Dragon Age – Anders, removing the The Extremist Was Right entry and reformatting the information and moving it to Well-Intentioned Extremist. Before I did this, I took it to the Is This An Example
thread, where I was mostly ignored despite posting several times. Now, I previously did the same thing for the same entry on the main page for TEWR after I got agreement from the same thread that it wasn't an example, so despite lack of replies, I thought I was okay.
Shortly after I did this, Asherinka reverted the entry back and edited it to have more neutral wording (or tried to at least). The topic for the Dragon Age fandom is major Flame Bait and Anders himself has a Broken Base, so I'm trying not to let this devolve into an argument over whether or not he was right.
My big hang up on TEWR vs WIE is that I believe they are mutually exclusive tropes. And, for Anders, I do not believe he meets the requirements for TEWR.
- The Extremist Was Right:
- Terrible as Anders' actions were, a lot of supplementary material suggests that escalating the mage/Templar conflict to open war was the right thing to do, since the status quo only weakened the mages' position. The events of Inquisition can further cement this idea; if Leliana is named Divine, one of her reforms to the Chantry is the dissolving of the Circle system, granting the mages their freedom and creating widespread mage acceptance, giving Anders (and the rebel mages who agreed with his points, if not his actions) everything he wanted. Even the endings that see the Circles rebuilt come with some major reformations.
- The flavor text of the Magehunter shield in Inquisition tells of a previous misuse of the Right of Annulment. In 3:09 Towers, twenty-five years after the Right was first granted, the Circle of Magi in Antiva City was annulled to cover up the fact that its Knight-Captain was a serial killer who murdered over a hundred mages out of pure bigotry. While the Seekers eventually hunted him down and punished him, they assisted the Templars in covering up the incident, leaving the rest of the Circles completely ignorant of the truth, and there is no mention of them punishing the Knight-Commander for Annulling a Circle under false pretenses. Given that background chatter in the second game reveals that Meredith had gone over Elthina's head and petitioned the Divine for the Right, it paints a very clear picture of what might have happened to the Gallows if Anders had not provoked Meredith into jumping the gun instead of waiting for the Divine's permission.
Hello83433: I'm a bit concerned about [this particular TEWR example] in general, because it relies a lot on player perception and it seems to be used as an Audience Reaction, because there's hardly anything in-universe that is justifying the actions taken. The trope itself says the people whom everyone thought were completely right and in-universe it's noted that many, including mages, denounce Anders' actions. The supporting material (i.e. comics and supplementary novels) also have that the character is dead, because some events that occur do not occur in a universe where he lives.
Overall, this seems more like someone trying to convince others that the actions were right, when they moreso fall under Your Terrorists Are Our Freedom Fighters (and he's already listed under). Thoughts?
Reply from Afterward: Sorry I haven't said this before, but I think there's enough negative reactions to Anders' actions in-universe that he doesn't qualify (and while the Mage situation in Dragon Age was already pretty bad before Anders blew up the Chantry, there's no real evidence that it got better, just that the conflict became open), although I'm not super familiar with the inner workings of the trope.
Hello83433: Reposting because I think it got lost in the page transition. After cutting Anders' example from The Extremist Was Right, it was added to his character page. The first bullet point text is exactly the same as TEWR, and the second point is diving deep into begging the question and slippery slope territory, but I wanted to bring the full example here again just in case.
[Example In Question]
Reply from nrjxll: Honestly, I think there's a seed of a valid example buried in there, in that Inquisition does pretty clearly show that Anders's broader goal of dragging these festering problems out in the open led to necessary reforms that probably weren't going to happen otherwise. What it doesn't validate is the method he did that by. (Just speaking personally, one of the few points I found myself majorly agreeing with Vivienne - who I rather disliked on the whole - on was that tying the cause of mage independence to a terrorist attack that killed hundreds of people was a huge PR self-own.)
BTW, the definition of The Extremist Was Right is distinctly not helpful here. I don't see anything about other characters in a story needing to say as much to qualify an example the way you originally cited, but the description's not all that long in general.
Hello83433: I was going off of Laconic and the first sentence of the description, although I agree it could be written clearer. The heavy disagreement on his methods is what puts him out of TEWR territory for me. Although, now that I'm looking at it, would it be a better fit for Well-Intentioned Extremist? Anders seems to fit under the first and/or third types (the problem is the means and/or consequences) just based on in-universe reactions to his "solution".
I don't want this OP to be too long, so just to sum up I don't believe the example fits The Extremist Was Right primarily due to in-universe backlash against Anders and his actions. I suppose moving it to YMMV might be an option, but to avoid an edit war I'm asking here to get a consensus one way or the other.
Edited by Hello83433openSuper Mario Bros. - Dork Age or not? Videogame
Both the GameCube/GBA era and the 3DS/Wii U era are listed as a Dork Age for Mario on the video games page. Myself and a few others got into a discussion
about it, and we felt that neither of those actually do classify as a Dork Age. One of the users went ahead and removed the examples. Soon after, however, they were added back by another user, who disagreed with the deletion. The other user was unaware that there had been a discussion about it, so I linked him/her to the appropriate page.
I'm still leaning on the side of 'doesn't count as a Dork Age' myself, but I felt that maybe I should get some more opinions first. Thoughts?
Edited by StardustSoldieropenOK to use notes to hide spoilers? Videogame
The regular [[spoiler]] tag is fine for hiding a few words, but is it okay to use [[labelnote]] instead to hide a large amount of spoiler-y text?
I'm cleaning up the page VisualNovel.The Letter, and some of the examples are a bit lengthy.
For example, I want to change this:
- Earn Your Bad Ending: In order to trigger certain character deaths or ruin certain relationships, you have to deliberately choose options that are cowardly, impulsive or very clearly offensive. Surprisingly, this also applies to the True Ending, which is not an Everybody Lives ending and requires you to deliberately trigger the deaths of Hannah, Marianne and Ashton before sending Luke off for a Heroic Sacrifice. And this is after you unlock the Memory Fragments that are triggered by every individual character's death.
to this:
- Earn Your Bad Ending: In order to trigger certain character deaths or ruin certain relationships, you have to deliberately choose options that are cowardly, impulsive or very clearly offensive. spoiler Surprisingly, this also applies to the True Ending, which is not an Everybody Lives ending and requires you to deliberately trigger the deaths of Hannah, Marianne and Ashton before sending Luke off for a Heroic Sacrifice. And this is after you unlock the Memory Fragments that are triggered by every individual character's death.
It's not a big deal by itself, but several examples are like this, and it makes the page look like Swiss-cheese for people with spoilers off. I don't want to be overzealous with the notes, so I want to ask here first.
(I actually asked a similar question here a few weeks ago, so this is kind of like a follow-up question.)
Thanks!
Edited by craleigh318openIsaac Heller and Pokemon Spoilers Videogame
I'm a bit worried that the Troper Isaac Heller is adding story related spoilers from Pokémon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon to various pages, but I don't want to spoil myself from this aspect, so I'm not willing to check his edits.
Edited by PDLopenBase Breaking Character, Persona 5 Royal. Videogame
The following contains Royal spoilers. You have been warned.
I just noticed this Paragraph from Persona 5 that seriously bugs me:
- Kasumi Yoshizawa was inevitably going to rouse a divide. While some appreciate the steps that were taken to prevent a repeat of the backlash garnered for Marie and see her as a decent character in her own right. Others find that she’s a largely irrelevant character to both the main plot and the third semester where she takes center stage. To some, she's worse than Marie since Marie still enriched the story, and she still managed to come across as friends with the other members of the Investigation Team outside of the protagonist. Sumire, on the other hand, has little to no interaction with the Phantom Thieves who aren't called Joker or Akechi note She does have one scene where Futaba is included, but some would argue that even then it's still about Joker than actually introducing Sumire to a teammate making her feel isolated amongst the Phantom Thieves. Even those who love Sumire tend to agree with her detractors that she was made playable way too late in the game and suffers for it as she exists within a bubble that only floats down whenever Joker's involved. Some see her as being forced into a preexisting story and adds nothing new to the story or to the Phantom Thieves. note Her backstory has been compared to Futaba's. Only this time around really she was responsible for someone's death. Her unhealthy way of coping isn't unlike Yusuke turning a blind eye to Maderame's abuse of his pupils. Her getting angry at the expectations bestowed upon her was Makoto's breaking point. Even her teaching Joker some gymnastics comes across as odd to some since Joker was already performing gymnastic feats without her assistance in the base game and before their Confidant even started. There's also some debate on her Character Development. She either ends the game as a completed person living as Sumire, or she's still living in the shadow of the real Kasumi and Joker at the same time note Those who go for the latter feel that she doesn’t behave any different as Sumire than she does as Kasumi and Sumire goes right back to emulating Kasumi's look at the end of her Confidant (which itself causes some minor debate; Is she just honoring her sister? Is there a better way to do that without making it seem like she's regressing?). Meanwhile, living in Joker's shadow ties right back into the fact that she barely has a life outside of him. And that her preexisting self-esteem issues are just gone when she gets confirmation that Kasumi saw her as an equal and rival the whole time. What can make matters worse is how one feels about Maruki's inclusion, whether or not it's better or worse than how Sumire was handled. Even her entire relationship with Joker is debated upon. It's either one of the more natural Confidants, or Joker is forced into caring about her and is completely out of character around her. note Some have noticed that the player is rarely given the chance to snark at her or criticize her like they can to virtually every other person he comes in contact with. And that her status as the Implied Love Interest is constantly being shoved down players throats note She basically admits to loving Joker at Rank 8, a lot of her designs are meant to mirror Joker, and she's the only character Joker has a Showtime with besides Akechi and arguably hurts her Character development.
I have also been issued a request on Base Breaker Cleanup
to review this.
Basically:
- Many of the arguments in this entry are heavily biased and flawed, for a person who was well-versed with Royal's storyline, at the least
- Guessing and Alternative Character Interpretation that can simply be rebuked within in-game dialogue
- The flaws of this character, as far as where it was left largely unambiguous, is that she barely has any interaction with other PT members and no involvement other than the last month of game, something which has been unambiguously agreed upon. It belongs exactly in They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character.
- Character is largely well received in the fandom unlike most entries there.
I've been removed the paragraph for now, if anyone else adds it the next time, I leave it alone until further notice, because someone added it back earlier on and I don't want this to degenerate into an edit war.
Edited by Mr-ex777resolved Possible EditWar on Characters/KingdomHeartsEnemyCreatures Videogame
In January 2019, both Phoenixion and Mattman_the_Storyteller deleted tropes that suggested that Commantis is actually a Brainwashed and Crazy spirit. Both gave edit
reasons
that said, basically, that the game itself gave no evidence to this.
In October, Aurawick added
the tropes back with no edit reason.
Personally, I agree with both Phoenixion and Mattman_the_Storyteller. Looking back, there is no evidence in game for the tropes. But since the tropes were added back without a reason, is this an Edit War?
Edited by SailorTardisopenYMMV.Catherine UnfortunateImplications edit war Videogame
Hey, troper metaverse keeps deleting an Unfortunate Implications entry on the YMMV.Catherine page about some fans being unhappy with Unsettling Gender-Reveal jokes (the scene in question involves a transwoman appearing before coming out in an Alternate Timeline so they can make a joke about another character she is attracted to being unaware she is a transwoman or attracted to him, basically), despite 3 sources to said reactions being provided (per the guidelines), with a Strawman Fallacy edit reason that these are "misunderstandings" about a Transgender character no longer wanting to transition, rather than about the actual content of the entry. Entry:
- Unfortunate Implications: In one of the new endings for Full Body, Catherine goes back in time so she can place herself in Vincent's high school and the two end up dating. An unclear number of years later, at Vincent and Catherine's wedding, Erica is then seen pre-transition with Toby, who previously only became friends with the rest of the cast after Erica's transition, in order to make another joke about Erica's attraction to Toby. Outside potentially inadvertently removing Erica's identity and agency, this was mainly seen as Atlus doubling down on problematic Unsettling Gender-Reveal jokes in the story by a number of fans, especially in the trans community in both the West and Japan. It even got to the point where several people refused to buy the game or support Atlus in the future. The English voice actress for Erica, Erin Fitzgerald, explained shortly afterwards that the localization team would try to adjust the ending for the Western release. (Sources: Kotaku
, Daily Dot
, Dualshockers
)
I'm not really sure what to do at this point because the edit reasons for removing don't seem to have anything to do with the actual entry? Honestly, if the entry should go for the sake of Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment, I understand, but feel like their strawman Mis-blamed and Overshadowed by Controversy should go too then.
Edited by ashlayopenMisused: Villain Has a Point Example Videogame
So, the idea behind the "X has a point" tropes is when a character with negative connotations is mentioned to have a point In-Universe. So in this entry in the Visual Novel folder, we have:
- Fate/stay night: An All There in the Manual example. Gilgamesh plans to use the corrupted Grail to unleash all of humanity's sins upon the world, which will kill off ninety percent of the population, and then rule over what remains. The heroes never discuss this plan; he obviously needs to be stopped, there is no need to talk about it. But due to the way magic works, there's nothing inherently wrong with his plan. The people of Uruk were practically a Precursor race, part of the reason for humanity's decline is because magic has been spread out among too many people, and as humanity's first king Gilgamesh does have the divine right to make this sort of decision. But it never gets brought up in text because obviously he can't be allowed to kill billions of people.
Given that in the visual novel itself this never gets brought up as a good point and all characters react with disgust towards this idea, is this really a case of Villain Has a Point? From what i've observed this seems to be more of an out of universe interpretation from the user. (Specially since, again, all characters dismiss his Divine Right of Kings as a cheap excuse towards his actions)
openHow do we handle actor pseudonyms? Videogame
On Characters.Command And Conquer Tiberian Sun, one of the character's actors (CABAL, in the Nod folder) is listed as their pseudonym, but in parenthesis, it mentions that they were credited by their real name in the manual (not sure what they're credited as in-game, never played it).
How do we handle situations like this? Do we use their real name (if known) or their credited pseudonym? The actor in question — Milton James
— had multiple pseudonyms that he used for different roles. Do we use each one as credited, or just stick with his real name for every role?
What about cases like the original Metal Gear Solid, where nearly everyone used a pseudonym but used their real names in sequels? Which names do we use there? Does popularity mean anything? David Hayter is pretty much universally known as the voice of Solid Snake (he even played himself in MGS4), but he was credited as "Sean Barker" in the original MGS1.
In some cases, actors use pseudonyms to accept non-union roles (This is actually why they used pseudonyms in MGS1). Does that affect anything?
openWMG Editing Videogame
There's been discussion over on WMG.Marvel Rivals that's called attention to some issues people have with the page, myself included. Being a hero shooter full of marvel characters, there's a big section on the page where ppl can speculate on who the next heroes are gonna be, with some making guesses about gameplay, character interactions and what role the devs will give them. The vast majority of it, however, has just been people throwing a bunch of marvel characters' names onto the list with no further elaboration or WMG regarding the game itself. And as a result it's just created this very bloated list with zero substance to the majority of it. It elicits the same feelings for me as a regular tropes page having a ton of ZCE entries. But I don't know if mods or other editors are approaching WMG with the same scrutiny as a tropes page, so idk how to further proceed with this issue. And it's not like it's an issue unique to this one page.
Edited by IkeaHanopenA troper who posted extremely biased and outright fabricated edits due to shipping bias Videogame
I saw troper Sayacha change several YMMV entries on Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth and even wrote on Ship Sinking (videogames) that had very biased takes and even blatant lies. I felt compelled to delete and undo their edits, especially the claim on the Ship Sinking page. As I've said there, the claim that protagonist Cloud Strife "friend zones" Aerith Gainsborough in the final chapter of Rebirth is complete fabrication. There are two ways their conversation can go, based on Relationship Values. He either enthusiastically looks forward to going on a date with her again, or responds with less enthusiasm, but he never outright rejects her. Writing that Aerith "probably realized she doesn't like him romantically" is another very biased reading. All she said was that she really likes Cloud but is unsure yet what kind of "like" she feels. It's a deliberately vague response. Anyone with common sense and an objective mind can see that what I say is true by looking at Youtube videos of that scene on Chapter 14.
Sayacha also claimed on both Ship Sinking and the YMMV page that developer's commentary on a book (Ultimania) allegedly said that Aerith was "certainly killed off again" and that developers "confirmed" it themselves. Another blatant fabrication. I checked the claim and the only thing that came up from every non-biased fan translator who translated that Japanese book was that the developers deliberately designed the outcome of Aerith's fate as of Rebirth to be vague and mysterious. Did she die? Is the Aerith shown "alive" afterwards a mere illusion by Cloud? Or is there something more going on? The game's story introduces the concept of Alternate Self and what appears to be Alternate worlds. There are no details yet revealed as to how this phenomena occurs within the lore of FF 7 but it's there. And the developers made a deliberate narrative choice to keep the ending of the game ambiguous and leaving the story full of questions in order to entice players to look forward to the next entry for answers. Ask yourselves. What kind of writer/developer would be incompetent enough to spend YEARS of development time to deliberately create an ambiguous situation to create speculation for the next few years, only to go a couple of months later and say "Actually, nothing changed. LOL"?
I'm also reporting this because I regretfully ended up engaging in an edit war on the YMMV page by deleting/reverting Sayacha's biased edits back to the more neutral posts. However, the main reason I'm reporting this is because I'm seeing another bad sign that the FF 7 pages are about to be swarmed with another wave of edit warring by extremely biased shippers intent on spreading their agenda with bad faith justifications. We've seen this nightmare before in the original 1997 version of FF 7. It may be best to take preventive measures by locking down the pages of FF 7 Remake and Rebirth too until the third and final game finally clarifies everything.
openFemale protagonist from P3P Videogame
So I was on the Persona 3 YMMV section and came across this entry, edited by Key Will Jay:
- The female main character herself is rather divisive. Some love her inclusion for providing an interesting "what if" scenario (and with the main theme of Portable being the butterfly effect, this also fits) and for her personality contrasting with the male main character while still keeping the "masking feelings" theme. They may also like how some of the less interesting Social Links get replaced with S.E.E.S. members. Others see her as unnecessary and believe she ruins the game's themes of overcoming despair and accepting death with said alternate scenario and personality, and dislike how SEES is made obviously friendlier in her route (a criticism fans of older titles sometimes level at newer titles in general). The memes and exposure surrounding her also induce Hype Backlash for non-fans and those that have played the console version but do not try Portable, calling her overrated. It was bad enough that when an alleged lead regarding a theoretical remake mentioned cutting out Portable content (which turned to be reality per the reveal of Reload), the fanbase split between those calling it a worst-case scenario and those celebrating the removal.
I’m not as active in the fandom but do people really fight over the female protagonist? Because I’ve never seen much divide over her. In fact, I’ve only seen people express their disappointment of her being excluded from Reload.
Edited by Superdude96openI normally would post it under a related entry, but...(rude edit reasons) Videogame
However, I feel this needs its own.
Marth of the Moon's edit reasons are getting rather inappropriate here
on the page. "Oh you motherfucker" and "Quite the Determinator for your shitposting, aren't you?" are extremely rude and uncalled for.
I will note that the entry he reported is reported for a good reason, it's clearly somebody shoehorning their site in for some form of advertisement of a crack pairing. That in itself is a problem(and that particular tumblr
is now attacking the user I'm reporting too, which is exporting drama). However, the fact that Marth of the Moon is being this rude is the entire reason for the pointless drama in the first place. That is not to say that Globplumber(and apparently is a ban evader of someone?) is not a problem regardless.

I initially brought this up in the Complaining thread, but upon further investigation of the culprit's edit history, it was deemed mod attention may be warrented.
Galdodon 99 made some weird edits to YMMV.Paper Mario The Origami King earlier today.
And
I expanded the spoiler in the second part myself, but aside from their carelessness or lack of respect for spoiling, other red flags include the memetic mutation being a triple bullet point, and frankly I've never seen that meme around as a meme at least in the relatively decent portions of the internet, and the pothole to a Darth Wiki work and reference to a game that has at no point even been hinted to being planned in the Pandering to the Base.
They also added a justifying edit to another entry, I'll just remove that myself when I'm not on mobile.
After making that initial post, it was observed that they had made edits pertaining to the Villain Army, an unpublished work on Darth Wiki, and Paper Jam 2, which as of yet has not even been teased by any development staff, on other pages as well. This whole thing feels like another episode of the Tropers Obsessed with Works that Don't Exist show.