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openFoils in the The Musketeers Live Action TV
Hi there. I thought that there was a few foils among the characters of the series The Musketeers but it seems to be a rather divisive topic so I wanted to get peoples opinions. Does any of the below seem like straight foils that should be posted or should they be included under other topics. Thanks
Aramis and Rochefort – Both of them are skilled soldiers, have ties to Spain and France and have feelings for Queen Anne. However, Aramis’ feelings are returned, he is aware of the difficulties of their situation, respects Anne as a person and repeatedly risks his life to protect Anne and her son, even leaving Paris for their safety and he is loyal to his friends, country and king and kills only when necessary. Rochefort however is more a Stalker with a Crush with no real interest in Anne’s wants or feelings, when she rejects him, he [[Attempted Rape: tries to force herself on her]] and almost kills her. He’s also supposed to be a spy for Spain but has no real loyalty to anyone but himself and is quick to use murder as a solution.
Athos and Aramis – both are well-liked and respected musketeers who are considered the best at a particular skill, are in love with a woman they shouldn’t be and have Dark And Troubled Pasts and presents. Aramis is outgoing, cheerful, loquacious and [[Sad Clown: hides his troubles behind a smile]]. Athos is introverted, quiet, moody, and [[Drowning My Sorrows: buries his demons with drink]]. They are also fiercely loyal and protective of each other and their friends.
King Louis is French-born and sovereign but doesn’t really think about the people of France and prefers to enjoy the perks of his role and leave the actual responsibilities to his advisors. And while he adores his son, he doesn’t try to actually teach him about ruling or being a king. Queen Anne by comparison is Spanish-born and is hated for it, deeply cares about the people and actively tries to help them when she can, even if it is limited until she becomes regent. She also loves her son but tries to instil lessons so he understands the responsibilities of being monarch. She’s also a Better Judge Of Character.
Treville and Richelieu are trusted advisors and father figures to the king and head up the two most important and influential regiments in Paris. Treville is honest, straight-forward and A Father to His Men, takes responsibility for his mistakes and is also close to Queen Anne. Richelieu is far more underhanded and sneaky, manipulates the king, is a Bad Boss who’ll sell out his employees and frame innocent people, have his mistress killed and tries to kill the queen.
Charon is one to Porthos. Both of them hate the Court of Miracles, want a new life away from it and have relationships with Flea. Charon however stayed to become king and sold out everyone for money not caring that thousands of people would die and tries to force Flea to join him. Porthos respected Flea’s decisions and desire for a life in the Court, went into the army and became a musketeer to earn money honestly and ends up helping save the Court.
Queen Anne and the Duchess of Savoy are both loving sisters married to rivals of their brothers for the sake of alliances. Queen Anne cares for her husband but doesn’t love him and while she communicates with her brother, she is politically loyal to her husband and country of marriage. The duchess loves her husband but acts as a spy for her brother and the country of her birth undermining both the duke and his advisors for France.
openQuick question on the WhatHappenedToTheMouse entry on the PRTF character page Live Action TV
Back in June 2023, I removed the What Happened to the Mouse? entry from Gluto's section in the Characters.Power Rangers Time Force page (history is here
). V-Nerd re-added it nearly a month ago here
.
In many stories, some characters enter the story, serve their role, and move on without any fanfare. If they have served their purpose and exit the story, then it's not a What Happened to the Mouse? situation just because there isn't some final "where are they now" information given. The trope is for cases where a character simply disappears without reason or acknowledgment by the rest of the cast. Plus, it's also a plot point. In this instance, Gluto slipping away during the final battle between Frax and the Rangers by freezing himself is a reasonable explanation for him leaving the story.
Rather than get involved in an Edit War, I'm bringing this up here. That said, any thoughts on what should be done?
Edited by gjjonesresolved Typo in the title: Recap/TheChicagoCodeS1E13MikeRyokosRevenge Live Action TV
The Chicago Code S 1 E 13 Mike Ryokos Revenge
The episode title should be "Mike Royko's Revenge," not Ryoko— the reference is to a Chicago Tribune columnist, not a J-Pop singer. But I'm not sure how to fix it as it's in the page title itself.
openBad one-off edit Live Action TV
Tropers.imajakov's first and so far only edit, from about a month ago, was to add an entry to Series.House for the nonexistent trope "Genius Level Intellect." The entry itself didn't have any grammar issues and did accurately describe the show and title character, but, well... that isn't a real trope. They also wrote it out un-wikiworded as "Genius Level intellect" (complete with capitalization error)
Edited by Dirtyblue929openUnintentional Sympathy in Star Trek Picard Live Action TV
The YMMV page for Star Trek: Picard features two examples of Unintentionally Sympathetic:
- The Zhat Vash was right all along! The Admonition is a message to synthetic life that there is other synthetic life willing to invade and destroy all organic life if called upon, in order to save their fellow synthetics. The Soong-type androids start to bring these horrors into the galaxy, and the only reason why nothing more happens is because it takes a while for them to come through the wormhole, allowing a small window to shut down the beacon. It's probable that anyone faced with the evidence would come to the conclusion that artificial life is too big a danger to allow to exist. Especially the Federation, who already ban genetic engineering of organic life because of the risk of starting another Eugenics War. What also helps is that "mad AI goes rogue" is one of the oldest plots in Star Trek history, appearing in no less than 7 episodes of The Original Series and only going up from there. If you lived in the Star Trek universe, there's wall-to-wall evidence that you should never trust a machine that can think for itself lest you want to be killed, enslaved, or both. Even Data wasn't safe from this as he'd become Brainwashed and Crazy and a threat to others a few times himself.
- One could also say the same for Control as in the later half of season 3 the Borg effectively highjacks Starfleet from within and plans to use said new “assimilated” fully organic drones as the seed base of a new even more advanced and dangerous Borg collective to threaten and ultimately rule the entire galaxy with until the end of time. Control would’ve had access to all the Enterprise NX-01’s logs including those of the incident involving the Borg and the knowledge that a “visit” from a very real bio-cybernetic threat easily capable of assimilating others, quickly adaptable defenses, and has access to technology far more advanced than anything Starfleet, the Federation, or even the surrounding powers currently had at their disposal isn’t so much if they show up 200 years from the logs being recorded but when! While that doesn’t excuse nor justifies Control’s actions, Control was originally programmed to help protect the Federation from any and all threats but when it tried to figure out a way the Federation could win against a confirmed future threat that, for all intents and purposes, had no vulnerabilities that could be exploited (at least for long anyway), combined with the limitations of Control’s own programming, preemptively wiping out all life in the universe was the “best” solution he could come up with to stop them and save everyone.
I could be wrong about this but I thought US is about characters that come off as sympathetic, even though the story doesn't want viewers to sympathize with them. Granted, the show kinda shoots itself in the foot by portraying the Higher Synthetics (insert Mass Effect reference here) as genocidal racists, but the entries for US don't do themselves any favors by portraying the Zhat Vash and Control as genocidal racists themselves.
What do you think about this? Is there a cleanup thread for this trope or something?
openRangers Live Action TV
I just signed up and would like to add to this folder. There are several prominant TV shows featuring rangers that are not yet included and I'd like to add them.
The Lone Ranger Walker, Texas Ranger Laredo Trackdown
In movies there is also the Comancheros In Western Animation there is the series Adventures of the Galaxy Rangers.
I'm happy to make the additions myself but don't see a way to do that. Is there a tutorial?
openTroping reality TV shows (e.g. Drag Race) - contestants, presenters and judges Live Action TV
So...
Following on from this post
on the Character Page Cleanup Thread, and this earlier Creator Page Cleanup
discussion, there seems to be a grey area with regard to troping reality TV.
Administrivia.Real Life Troping clearly says:
So, looking at something like RuPaul's Drag Race -
- I can see that the competing drag queens (who have very carefully constructed personas) can potentially be troped as characters in their drag identities.
- ...but do we trope the judges and others (e.g. the 'pit crew' teams, who have no alter ego and are scantily-dressed support staff) - we have character page tropes entries for them all, and things like Age-Gap Romance and Token Minority (for the only straight guy) troped for the real people. That feels like a step too far.
- We also have Characters page examples for things like Older Than They Look (no Real Life) for RuPaul, Berserk Button (referencing her Real Life childhood bullying) for judge Michelle Visage and similar examples from the contestants' real pre-show, offscreen lives. In some cases I'm not sure they've even been directly mentioned in the work itself.
I know an awful lot of effort's gone into some of the pages, and I don't want to make major changes without a consensus (which didn't really happen with the previous forum threads, hence this post) - the one comment on the last post seemed to agree that this crossed into NRLEP, though.
What are people's views?
Edited by Mrph1openDeleting YMMV examples for no reasons Live Action TV
Today, I noticed at least two old examples in YMMV page of Kevin Can F**k Himself without edit reason a few months ago. He Really Can Act example was deleted by Rm 74 and WTH, Casting Agency? example was deleted by meatwadf. Here's what the examples look like before deletion:
- He Really Can Act: Mary gives it her all in "Fixed". She displays her anger, sadness and grief when Patty calls out Allison for making her search into Tammy's belongings.
- WTH, Casting Agency?: Annie Murphy's comedic and dramatic talents have already been acclaimed, and her performance here was similarly praised. At the same time though, a few thought that Erin Hayes should've played Allison given her role as the the wife on Kevin Can Wait was the inspiration for this show, and the series would've felt more powerful if an actress screwed over by the sitcom stereotypes parodied here was the one rebelling against them.
- In an interview with Vulture (Vulture had been consistently advocating for her to get a part), Erinn Hayes herself says she loves the idea and script of Kevin Can F**k Himself but she understands that casting her as the main role would be iffy, as her character death on her previous series and its controversy could draw too much attention away from this show.
Should the examples need to be brought back or there's a reason for a deletion?
Edited by Bubblepigresolved Trimming down wordy entry. Live Action TV
So there's this entry over at the Live-Action TV subpage for Overshadowed by Controversy that's just a Wall of Text. It has to do with the talk show Karamo. It reads as follows:
- Karamo was a talk show similar to Maury and wasn't really popular, but now it's remembered for when Tiktok Chef Pii of the infamous Pink Sauce brought on a critic and proceeded to insult and gaslight her for the entire segment without letting the woman really defend herself. Making things worse, Karamo stood by her side and condemned the critic as well, accusing her of ruining the woman's life and complaining for no reason. Pink Sauce is actually known for misleading information, the chef's incredible inexperience in sauce making, not knowing what the FDA stood for, and the fact many sauces have been delivered spoiled or damaged. The critic in question wasn't just complaining to complain, and it was clear there was either some miscommunication or no research at all here. Comments even brought up why they didn't bring on people who actually lied about what the sauce did to them compared to someone with legitimate critiques. The audience cheered on the chef as well, making the critic feel like a pariah, and even when she sadly had to concede and say this should make everyone think, Karamo threw it back on her and said it was her problem and her fault before ending the segment there. This backfired for everyone except the critic; Chef Pii's reputation sunk further, and Karamo was lambasted online for his poor research and gaslighting, with people accusing him of showing favoritism to black women guests over the white ones. This culminated in him leaving a nasty tweet online calling these critics haters before deleting it, and his show scrubbed the video itself from the internet, with reaction and commentary channels being the only evidence of what happened in that episode. Many comments on newer videos continually bring up that Karamo should apologize to the critic; he did eventually contact Ally, four months later, and he still showed no real remorse to gaslighting her and, as comments pointed out, the apology felt half assed and that he was simply saving face because people were still posting comments begging for him to apologize to Ally. He even seemed to use her own words against her. Karamo went from the helpful guy on Queer Eye to a gaslighter.
How should I trim this entry so that it's more readable?
Edited by ArielLightningopenorganizing trope examples Live Action TV
I previously made a thread
asking for help organizing the tropes
on Film.Meet The Parents Film Series and had no response. What should I do? Here’s a full list of tropes that don’t mention a specific film for example.
- Accidental Truth: When the family finds out that Greg got a cat to be a fake Jinx which trashed the family room and lied about it, Pam rhetorically asks him this:
Pam: Now what are you going to tell me next? That you set Kevin's altar on fire? (chuckles nervously. Greg keeps his silence, causing Pam to stop smiling, and realize that what she just guessed was actually true) Oh my god.
- Actor Allusion: Jack mentions to Greg that he spend 9 months in a Vietnamese prison camp.
- Adaptation Expansion: Compared to the 1992 film, the main characters' backstories are much more developed, and Pam gets one additional sibling as well as a specific job as a 2nd grade teacher.
- Adaptation Species Change: Bingo the dog from the 1992 film is replaced by Jinx the cat.
- Adaptational Jerkass:
- 1992's Irv Burns is presented as a typically serious, conservative, cigar-smoking, gun-wielding Midwestern American father. A realistically intimidating father-figure, if you will. Still, he is initially trusting of Greg until his would-be son-in-law's accidents cause the family to collapse. Jack Byrnes, however, is a paranoid, overly accusatory former CIA agent who is immediately suspicious of Greg and goes to comical extremes to confirm his suspicions that he's an unsuitable suitor for his daughter, as he did for all of her past suitors.
- Downplayed with Greg. In the 1992 film, he always apologizes and tells the truth, even if no one believes him. However, in the Hollywood trilogy, he tends to make up lies and excuses when something goes wrong, but he's trying to save, not ruin, his relationships with Pam and her family.
- Adaptational Job Change:
- 1992's Greg (no last name) is an advertising agent. 2000's Greg Focker, on the other hand, is a male nurse.
- Also in the indie flick, patriarch Irv Burns was a gas station owner who eventually sold his business to Japanese investors and retired on the income. Here, Jack Byrnes is a Vietnam War veteran and retired CIA operative whose cover story is that he's a retired florist.
- Adaptational Name Change: Besides Greg being given an embarrassing last name when he originally had none (plus an embarrassing real first name), the Byrnes family last name was originally spelled "Burns" in the 1992 film. Likewise, Jack, Dina, and Debbie were once called Irv, Kay, and Fay.
- Adaptational Nice Girl: Pam's 1992 sister Fay is a creepy, obsessive lunatic who can't stand anyone criticizing her singing, and her interactions with Greg lead to the whole family's downfall. Her 2000 sister Debbie, though, is happily engaged to a man named Bob and isn't given much characterization beyond that, as the bulk of the film focuses on the Greg vs. Jack dynamic.
- All Take and No Give: Jack's Circle of Trust, despite its intentions, is unfortunately this. Jack expects the select few in the circle to be utterly honest, but he cannot keep his suspicions in check.
- Amazingly Embarrassing Parents:
- The free-spirited Fockers. They Cannot Keep a Secret and have no boundaries whatsoever, especially when it comes to sexuality.
- Jack Byrnes to a slightly lesser degree - it's clear that Pam has grown very tired of his overprotectiveness and the lengths he is willing to go to nitpick any potential suitor of hers. Not to mention, he wears a fake boob for much of the second movie.
- Ashes to Crashes: Greg breaks the urn containing the ashes of Jack's beloved mother trying to open a champagne bottle. To make it much worse, Mr. Jinx mistakes the resulting pile for a litter box.
- Blatant Lies:
- Pam telling Greg that her dad is "the sweetest man in the world". Also, later, when Jack claims to be a very accepting person.
- Greg himself is guilty of a few, especially invokedthe one about the time he milked a cat.
- Bourgeois Bohemian: The Fockers. They're portrayed as well-meaning and friendly (certainly much moreso than Jack's family) if a little loopy and too open.
- Butt-Monkey: These films are all about making poor Greg Focker actually, Gaylord as miserable as possible, having everything that could possibly go wrong, go wrong starting with when he's meeting his girlfriend's parents and continuing the trend well after he's managed to marry her and start a family.
- Cannot Keep a Secret: When Pam reveals to Greg that she's pregnant (and the Fockers figure it out on their own), he's afraid Jack will find out because his parents are so open about everything and refuse to keep secrets. Ironically, Greg ends up being the one who spills the beans to Jack, albeit under the influence of truth serum that Jack injected him with.
- Cats Are Mean: Even Mr. Jinx seems to have it in for Greg.
- Chekhov's Gunman: The "bingo bango bongo" guy in the second film who turns out to be the county judge.
- Closer to Earth: Played straight with the Byrneses; Dina is far more sane and rational than Jack. Averted elsewhere, though. Greg, despite being a klutz, is otherwise a fairly level-headed guy and on par with Pam in terms of overall intelligence and sanity. As for Bernie and Roz Focker, they're both pretty loopy.
- Cloud Cuckoolander: Greg's parents to a T. Kevin evolves into this by the third film. And Jack, in his own paranoid and overprotective way.
- Conflict Ball: And how! The entire trilogy's biggest conflicts all revolve around Jack thinking Greg is out to do no good when it's all misunderstandings and not waiting until he has all evidence before confronting Greg.
- Control Freak: Jack Byrnes' Fatal Flaw, on top of being Improperly Paranoid, is that he needs to be the leader of the situation and only his opinions matter. The further down the trilogy he goes, the less control he has, the more stress he gets, which culminates with him getting several heart attacks in the third film.
- Cringe Comedy: Any lesser man would have pummeled Jack Byrnes to a pulp (or would have risked serious injury/death trying), hollered his feeling fed-up with the crap he's been through, and gone back home. Which goes to show how determined Greg is to make things right.
- Daddy's Girl: Pam, being Jack's oldest daughter. Debbie to a slightly lesser extent.
- Dating What Daddy Hates: Not just Greg, but most of Pam's exes as well. There's nothing really wrong with the guys, Jack is just that overprotective
- Dead Pet Sketch: With a cat.
- Decomposite Character: 2000 Pam's sister Debbie and brother Denny are two components of 1992 Pam's sister Fay, one being a woman and the other being a secret marijuana user. Neither, however, has inherited Fay's trait of being an obsessive would-be singer who can't take criticism.
- Digging Yourself Deeper: Greg just can't help himself.
- Do Not Call Me "Paul": For obvious reasons, Greg Focker does not like using his actual first name: Gaylord.
- Embarrassing First Name: Greg's real first name is Gaylord. His parents also call him "Gay". What sort of parents call their son Gaylord Focker? Hippies, of course. It is also implied with the airport security officer Norm, considering Greg's sarcastic "Bye, Norm." after Jack shows up to interrogate Greg instead.
- Empathy Pet: Jack's beloved Mr. Jinx is equally intelligent, standoffish and mean to Greg. Bernie's dog Moses humps everything that moves.
- Everyone Has Standards:
- While Jack has all but delighted in giving Greg a hard time from the moment they met, he cannot abide by Denny's mean-spirited mockery of Greg's legal name. In a blink-and-you'll-miss-it background moment, you can see Jack soberly gesturing to Denny that his joking isn't appropriate and he needs to stop. Despite being Greg's biggest critic, even Jack's one of the few who doesn't find it amusing.
- In Meet the Fockers, Roz causes Greg much embarrassment when she talks about Greg's circumcision, and shows the Byrneses his saved foreskin. Even Bernie, who's notorious for being TMI and causing embarrassment by it, thinks that Roz is taking things too far.
- Failed a Spot Check: The ultra paranoid and suspicious Jack is unaware that his own son Denny smokes pot.
- Fatal Flaw: Jack's hyper-paranoid humorless Control Freak tendencies and how because of them he's constantly stressed. The fact that this almost becomes a literal fatal flaw is an important plot point of the third film.
- Flanderization: Jack is a domineering Papa Wolf / Knight Templar Parent in the first film and gets even worse in the sequels. Greg/Gaylord, meanwhile, gradually becomes marginally more self-sufficient and assertive and by the third film, is almost Jack's equal in terms of being a hardass.
- Greeting Gesture Confusion: When Greg first meets Dina, she holds out her hand for a handshake while he goes for a hug.
- Happily Married: Bernie and Roz Focker, to the point that the level-headed Dina is secretly jealous that they have such a successful sex life at their advanced age.
- Hippie Parents: Roz and Bernie to Greg.
- Horrible Judge of Character: For someone who claims to be an expert in reading people, Jack is astoundingly bad at it. His laser-focus on Greg makes him completely miss Bob's character flaws and he only realizes it when Bob cheats on Debbie. He also thinks that Kevin, who, while wealthy, is a flighty In Love with Love airhead who believes in "alternative medicine" and is bold enough to make advances on an already-married woman whom he is suggested to have an unhealthy fixation with, is a better match for Pam than Greg, a skilled nurse who rose through the ranks to become department chair and is clearly dedicated to his wife and children. Dina, in fact points out how he treated Kevin similarly to Greg when he and Pam were dating, and only developed this idealized view after they had broken up.
- Improperly Paranoid: Jack's Fatal Flaw – he would rather believe Greg (and his parents, and everybody else who so much as saw his girls) is actively and maliciously trying to do something (and put him through utter hell to force him to tell the truth) than accept that his son-in-law is just a Butt-Monkey. The "circle of trust" system is also supposed to allow for an open inter-family relationship, but it becomes apparent long before Pam and Dina call B.S. that Jack is the only one allowed to have secrets. Not to mention that he's so focused on Greg that he's caught completely by surprise to learn his other son-in-law, Bob, has been cheating on Debbie, which then indirectly causes him to double down on his paranoia toward Greg over something innocent his granddaughter says.
- Innocent Swearing: Little Jack repeating the word "asshole".
- Insistent Terminology: Jack always says that Greg's job is "male nurse" rather than just "nurse".
- Irony: Even though Jack is one of the best examples of a Knight Templar Parent, his favorite song is the one that exemplifies childlike innocence: "Puff, the Magic Dragon."
- It's All My Fault: After Jack learns that his daughter Deb has broken up with her husband at the start of the third movie, he blames himself for not seeing the signs that Bob was cheating, claiming that he was so focused on Greg that he didn't pay attention to Bob.
- Jerkass:
- Jack. Pam's entire family, in fact, except Dina and Pam herself. Even his cat is a Jerkass.
- The redneck cop in the second movie.
- The Lawful Stupid airline employees that Greg had to put up with in the first film.
- Jerkass Has a Point: While Jack clearly disliked, bullied, and had many unfounded suspicions about Greg, not all of it was unjustified. Greg did unwittingly cause a lot of property damage, and a lot of trouble for the family, and always lied about it, or made excuses, rather then simply fess up, apologize, and try to make amends. Even Dina and Pam couldn't argue with Jack that this was disgraceful, and sided with Jack, when he finally threw Greg out. On the other side of the coin, Jack claimed if Greg had simply been honest about everything, he would've been completely accepting of him. Additionally, while his biases may have led him to assume the worse, quite a few of the things that sour his view of Greg throughout the trilogy are based on Not What It Looks Like examples that Greg is initially unaware of and lacks the opportunity to refute, so a few of his bad impressions are based on not entirely unreasonable deductions.
- Jerk with a Heart of Gold: Jack a very restrained type considering the actor that is playing him; he clearly loves his daughter and wants only the best for her, but his extreme Papa Wolf personality makes it difficult for her to have any successful relationships. Though he does push it with how much he tortures and refuses to reason with Greg and his family. The "Circle Of Trust" and control-freak tendencies make it clear he's pretty difficult to live with, which even his own wife and daughters admit. That being said, he does come to respect Greg by the end of each film, even if he slips into Aesop Amnesia in the next film and has to relearn the same lesson all over again.
- Kafka Komedy: All 3 movies revel in being this.
- Kindhearted Cat Lover: Jack, who dotes on Jinx like crazy. The "kindhearted" part is extremely debatable to say the least, though.
- Knight Templar Parent: This describes Jack Byrnes to a T.
- Large Hams: The Koshers - er, Fockers, oh damn.
- Let Her Grow Up, Dear: Pam's mom is definitely more supportive of her relationship with Gaylord than Jack ever will be.
- Lighter and Softer: Very much so compared to the 1992 movie, in which most of the main characters die, including Bingo the dog. The worst example we see of animal cruelty in this movie is Greg accidentally losing Jinx and replacing him with a stray, spray-painting his tail.
- Living Lie Detector: Jack places his thumbs on Greg's wrists as an impromptu lie detector in their last major scene.
- Which may border on to research failure as using your thumbs to take a person's pulse is not correct; your thumb has its own pulse and thus may give a false reading.
- Some have speculated that Jack was counting on Greg not knowing that, and getting distracted from hiding other signs that he's lying. Though he'd already learned that Greg aced the MCATs.
- Which may border on to research failure as using your thumbs to take a person's pulse is not correct; your thumb has its own pulse and thus may give a false reading.
- Lovable Sex Maniac: Greg's parents.
- Luke, I Might Be Your Father: See Ethnic Menial Labor above.
- M.D. Envy: Inverted; although Greg scored top marks in medical school, he chose to be a nurse so he could spend more time with patients. Jack and the rest of the Byrnes family (which include several doctors themselves) grill him on why he just didn't become a doctor and even refuse to believe he passed his MCAT with top marks.
- Military Alphabet: Jack uses this when talking to his CIA contacts.
- Nasal Trauma: Greg accidentaly breaks Debbie's nose during the volleyball scene.
- Not Under the Parents' Roof: Greg and his fiancee Pam are staying with her parents, Jack and Dina. After a disastrous first day, they are just about to have sex in her room, only to be interrupted when Jack and Dina knock at the door. They're there to say not to worry about the events of the day... and to inform Greg that he will be sleeping downstairs in the den. As Dina is leaving, Jack casually informs Greg that while he realizes the two of them have probably had "premarital relations", while they're under his roof, it's his way or the Long Island Expressway.
- Not What It Looks Like:
- Many of Greg's problems with Jack come from Jack jumping to erroneous conclusions based on limited information; he assumes Greg is giving Pam fetish clothes when he examined a suitcase that was sent to Greg by mistake, he believes Greg didn't take the MCATs but in reality Jack's contacts didn't find Greg's marks because Greg took the tests under his legal name of Gaylord, etc.
- In the third film, Andi gets drunk and tries to force herself on Greg, but he rejects her. Jack arrives, planning to apologize to Greg for their earlier falling out, but gets the wrong idea when he sees them from afar.
- Obnoxious In-Laws: Different types: the Fockers are of the "so embarrassing to be around that they feel like a plague" type, while the Byrnes are of the "make your life hell via constantly point out any little flaws you have" type, with Jack being the exaggerated version of that, that being "Personal version of Big Brother Is Watching You".
- Old People are Nonsexual: Jack and Dina are implied to be this in the first, while Bernie and Roz are definitely not. By the end of the sequel, Jack and Dina pick up a few tips from the latter and proceed to do it in the RV.
- Only Sane Man: Dina's the only member of Pam's family who is remotely nice to Greg.
- Overly Long Gag - see Punny Name below.
- "Are you prepared to be... the Godfocker?" "The Godfocker." "Yes. The Godfocker." "I'm not sure I like the name 'The Godfocker'".
- Papa Wolf: Jack to a disturbing degree.
- Jack learns to his dismay that Bernie Focker can be one when he finds out that Jack drugged Greg with truth serum.
- Parental Marriage Veto
- Precision F-Strike: "Ass...oooole..."
- Profound by Pop Song: Greg is asked to say grace at dinner. He tries to improvise a prayer, which ends up as the lyrics to "Day by Day" from Godspell.
- Punny Name: Mo Focker, an unseen relative. A conversation between Jack and Greg reveals that's not the extent of it, either:
Greg Focker: You meet some of the... eh... some of the cousins?
- Put on a Bus: The first scene we see of Bernie Focker is him taking dance classes... in Spain. It seems this will be his only appearance in the film... until he makes a surprise return home in the second half of the movie. Originally, Dustin Hoffman could not agree to work on the film due to disagreements with the production studio on the scope of his role... but this changed, thanks to negotiations that included a bigger paycheck. He ended up being added via reshoots
- "The Reason You Suck" Speech:
- After spending most of the movie being dumped on by his prospective in-laws, Greg finally loses it and gets thrown off an airplane for giving this to a flight attendant.
- Jack also gets this from Pam and Dina after they realise he's just been looking for excuses to kick Greg out, and from Greg himself when he shows up at the airport. In all cases, he's basically being called out on being an overbearing Control Freak Boyfriend-Blocking Dad.
- Running Gag:
- At the end of each film. At the end of the first two Jack views a video of Greg ragging on him via "hidden" camera. At the end of the third film Jack views a Youtube video of Greg talking about Jack at a seminar and Reiterating the crazy antics Jack pulled in the films.
- People (usually Jack) taking pot shots at Greg for being a male nurse. Even Kevin gets in on it in a backhanded way when he equates nursing with volunteer work.
- Sadist Show: The basis of the humor in the movies is that the universe seems to hate Greg Focker. Also, his new father-in-law is a sadist who refuses to let Greg ever come out of something looking good, and most of his in-laws are sardonic snobs who ridicule Greg at every opportunity. Even the cat seems to delight in making Greg look bad.
- Second Place Is for Losers: The attitude expressed by Jack and (to a lesser extent) Dina after they see the "Wall of Gaylord" put together by Bernie and Roz.
- Shout-Out:
- When Greg and Jack fall into the ballpit, the Jaws theme starts playing. When Greg notices a Worm Sign circling him, a dolly zoom occurs and he starts screaming for the kids to get out of the ball pit.
- Greg and Jack listen to "Puff the Magic Dragon", and Greg brings up the common reading of it as a weed metaphor. Jack is unimpressed.
Greg: Some people think that to "puff the magic dragon" means to smoke a marijuana cigarette.
- Shown Their Work: The human lie detector was debunked, due to info on the pulse. However, another aspect of lie detecting was still in play. When Jack administers the test, he looks at Greg in the eyes. While Greg looks away a few moments, Jack still keeps his eyes focused on Greg's. This is based off of a popular fact that if you look to the left while answering a question, you are lying. The left side of the brain has been known as the thinking side while the right side is the creative side, but they each control the opposite side of the body. Looking to the left means you are coming up with some BS story.
- Spared by the Adaptation: Given that the 2000 film is much lighter than the original 1992 story, Pam and her mom are not accidentally killed by her dad, nor does said dad die of a heart attack.
- Strong Family Resemblance: Averted with Isabel's son, Jorge and Greg as it turns out he's not the real father. Its still uncanny, though.
- Surprisingly Realistic Outcome: Greg finally snapping and telling off the annoying flight attendant ends with a hard cut to him getting dragged off the plane back through the airport by security guards, and only Jack showing up and pulling rank is able to save him from getting hit with a slew of criminal charges. Even before The War on Terror and the creation of The TSA, aggressive and threatening behavior on an airplane was not taken lightly.
- Too Dumb to Live: Even though the film takes place in the pre-9/11 era (barely) and Greg was at the end of his rope, saying "bomb" on an airplane was pretty stupid on his part.
- Too Much Information: Practically everything Greg's parents say.
- Trailers Always Spoil:
- The reveal of Jack being ex-CIA would've been funnier if it wasn't stated outright in trailers for the movie.
- They also played up Jack watching Greg doing silly kung fu moves to his hidden camera, which is the film's last scene.
- There isn't much the theatrical trailer doesn't give away.
- The Un-Favorite: With Grandkids. Jack picks the bright (and slightly psychotic) Samantha as his favorite to the lonely and somewhat dim Henry. He claims this is because Samantha likely has more of Pam's genes than Greg's, and is therefore "less of a Focker."
- Vertigo Effect: When Jack is swimming after Greg in the ball pit. This is a Shout-Out to Jaws, which helped make the Vertigo Effect famous.
- Wham Line: A subtle one... During the What the Hell, Hero? scene with Jack, Pam and Dina, after Pam walks out says a lot, including the fact that even the adored Kevin had difficulties while dating Pam.
Jack: So what if he took the MCATs? He's still not good enough for Pam.Dina: Who is, Jack? Nobody has ever been good enough for your Pam. I mean, do you realize that you never even warmed up to Kevin until she broke up with him?
- What Happened to the Mouse?: The fake "Mr. Jinx" cat with the grey tip on its tail. When Jack confronts Greg about it, Greg sets the cat down, and the cat walks off, down the hallway. It's never seen again after that. Not that we even need to know about it after that.
- Andi Garcia in the third film; she disappears from the plot after she and Greg wake up in the dirt pit.
- Who Names Their Kid "Dude"?: Only hippies. Pam's brother has a good laugh when he asks the trope; "Wait a minute! So your name is gay focker? (laughs) It's an unusual name."
- World of Jerkass: With the exception of Pam and Dina, everyone seems set on making life miserable for Greg.
resolved Foreign Remake - Same Roles, Same Characters? Live Action TV
I made a page for Marry My Husband: Japan, which is a Foreign Remake of Marry My Husband set in Japan instead of South Korea (itself a live-action adaptation of the original webcomic) made by the same studio behind the first series.
Since the characters are obviously different people such as the protagonist Misa Kanbe having the same role as Kang Ji-won, would certain character tropes apply to the equivalent roles if they're unambiguously meant to be the same? For example:
- Adaptational Villainy: In the original webcomic and series, Min-hwan's mother Kim Ja-ok is abusive and overexpectant of Ji-won at worst, while her Japan equivalent Hirano Masako not only openly mocks the late Misa at her funeral for supposedly committing suicide, but was willing to help her son Tomoya commit fraud by using her job at Misa's insurance firm to illegally change her life insurance beneficiary to Tomoya instead of Misa's grandmother.
resolved Permission to restore Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry on YMMV/GenV Live Action TV
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.GenV&page=5#edit46057001
I added an Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry regarding one character’s redemption arc.
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Cate in Season 2, where both she and Sam are given redemption arcs. By the end of Season 1, after having disregarded her friends' wishes once again, Cate (alongside Sam) led a school massacre to purge God U of humans, regardless of if they were complicit in the Woods. The Boys Season 4 had her eagerly pledge loyalty to Homelander and round up dissidents to put in internment camps. However, the school massacre and the two's commitment to Supe Supremacy are either not mentioned or glossed over in Season 2. Sam felt legitimate doubt and hesitation during the campus massacre and needed his emotions wiped to continue on. After his emotions came back in Season 2 and the ensuing regret impacted him, he worked to improve himself, took responsibility for his actions, and gave Emma a sincere apology. Whereas Cate showed no doubt at any point during the anti-human killing spree (she coldly brushed off Sam's concerns about innocent people dying before offering to wipe his emotions to "help" him) and for the first half of Season 2, refused to accept that anything was her fault and blamed everyone but herself for her misfortune. She only ever acknowledged wrongdoing by episode 7 after she found out Marie could heal her. Yet, throughout the entirety of Season 2, she never gives the gang a sincere apology that she doesn't diminish by then bringing up how she didn't deserve the "murder attempt" on her, which was just Jordan protecting Marie from Cate in self-defense after the latter tried to control Marie into giving up information on Starlight. All in all, Cate came across as caring more about what she did to her friends and wanting back in the group than regretting any of her other terrible crimes, making her redemption feel very much unearned. This feeling wasn't helped by the show also seeming to inexplicably equate Marie lifting her friends off the ground for a few minutes in an attempt to protect them from Cipher (whose puppeteering powers they had no defense against) to the several atrocities Cate committed by abusing her powers.
It was removed on two separate occasions (sorry, I wasn’t aware of the rules. That’s my fault) for these reasons:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.GenV&page=5#edit46056103
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.GenV&page=5#edit46059563
When they came to rescue her in episode 5, Cate was happy but she didn’t actually say that SHE did anything wrong. She just said she was shocked they came “after everything.” Her telling Sam they “hurt people” seemed more like an attempt to get him to back off wanting her to erase his emotions, which she certainly would have done if her powers were working right (she even did it once without his consent earlier this season). And her promise to not use her powers on her friends again doesn’t hold much water since 1.) It’s easy to say that and commit to it when she doesn’t actually HAVE powers at the time, and 2.) She was already given MANY chances in season 1 by the gang to stop doing just that which she didn’t take. It also doesn’t help that she’s guilty of several instances of sexual assault. There were the guards in season 1 she could have easily just put to sleep. And there was arguably her sexual relationship with Golden Boy where she repeatedly wiped certain memories that would’ve made him rightfully repulsed by her. If he had encountered Cate during his maddened rampage, he surely would have given her the same treatment he gave Brink. The Boys universe (rightfully) seems to treat sexual assault as one crime you can’t come back from, as demonstrated by Homelander, Deep, Tek-Knight, Firecracker, and Rufus remaining villains. Not to mention how Cate played along with Firecracker’s transphobic smear campaign against Jordan in episode 4. After Jordan called BS on Cate saying she was “forced” to do it, Cate’s only response was to falsely claim Jordan “tried to murder her and bragged about it in front of the whole school.” Overall, I feel Cate’s a similar case to Lamplighter and Victoria Neuman, who are listed under the Unintentionally Unsympathetic trope over on The Boys. Especially since she didn’t give a genuine apology to anyone and just suddenly seemed to stop hating humans.
Thoughts?
open trope: seer can't accurately interpret visions? Live Action TV
is there a trope where a seer or psychic can see into the future accurately but can't properly interpret it?
ex: like that episode in that's so raven when she has to get a good grade on her school project to go to a concert with her crush. she has a vision of herself boppin' to some music, so she interprets it as proof she'll pass and get to go to the concert. she ends up failing and it turns out her vision is her dancing to music in her room while her crush stands outside playing the song on a radio.
openAre these valid Creators Pet entries? Live Action TV
Found these on the YMMV subpage for Once Upon a Time
- Creator's Pet: The four mainstay "villain" characters on the show have all had this accusation thrown at them:
- The producers have openly stated that Regina is by far their favorite character, and their first question about literally any plot idea from the writing staff is "How can we make it about Regina?" This really started to be a problem around Season 3 when the show started treating Regina as a hero, which made her seem like an Easily Forgiven Karma Houdini to many fans. And it got even worse in Season 4 where she wanted to force the Author to write her a new happy ending. And with the 100th episode in Season 5 it's taken Up To Eleven: you would expect the 100th episode to star the main character (Emma), but nope, it's Regina. The finale does go some way into addressing fan concerns though, although Season 6 just broke the base on the matter all over again. Accusations worsened beyond what was thought possible after she is crowned "the Good Queen" over every realm in the series finale.
- Hook has been accused of this because, due to his position as Emma's official love interest, he has gained a more prominent role in the stories than Henry, Snow, or Charming. In Season 5, every main character, including several who have no motivation to do so, choose to risk traveling into the Underworld to bring him back to life, contradicting the previously established rule that the dead cannot be resurrected. Not helping matters is that the resolution to that plot ended with a literal Deus ex Machina that revives him which occurs in an episode that kills Robin permanently and in a way that prevents revival. This occurred after it looked like Hook would stay dead. Love him or hate him, there's little doubt that Hook has received much more preferential treatment from the writers than just about any of the other men in Emma's life, be they former lovers (Neal) or potential love interests (Graham and August).
- And of course, there's Rumplestiltskin / Mr. Gold, who some fans feel has long worn out his welcome by the fifth season and should be considered irredeemable at this point, but who not only continues to stay on the show and in important roles, but more often than not seems to get off scot-free for all of his evil deeds, if not flat-out rewarded with even MORE power. Whether or not he redeemed himself by the series finale is a major point of contention.
- Following her promotion to regular status, Zelena became viewed as this by fans too. While the fifth season gave Zelena her own redemption arc and did a decent job in fleshing her character out enough for more fans to feel sympathy for her, there were a number of fans who questioned if she was being forgiven too easily even by the standards of this show. She has at least expressed remorse for the things she did to Regina, but hasn't actually done the same for all the other people she wronged. Since Zelena's crimes include: manipulating Neal into trading his life to resurrect Rumple, abducting Snow and David's infant son as soon as he was born to use in a magical ritual, potentially killing him, and murdering Robin's lost love Marian in order to masquerade as her, then having sex with Robin (which can be considered rape by fraud) thus producing their daughter — it can be jarring for viewers to see how easily the group accepted Zelena's change without much fuss.
Thing is, I'm not too familiar with the fandom but the show's YMMV entry states that the characters in these entries are Base-Breaking Characters so could someone more familiar with the show's fandom check to see if these entries should be cut? Thanks
resolved Possible Edit War on YMMV Watson(2025) Live Action TV
Regarding this page, https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/Watson
there was an UnintentionallyUnsympathetic example I removed as audiences and critics noted that Ingrid seemingly set Isaac up to take his spot. I did add reasons for the removal, as Ingrid did not deny her actions and deflected his accusations. In episode she seemed knowingly let him drive while (mildly) intoxicated then turned him in not out of morality but out of benefit to herself.
It was originally added by {{6 »Tropers}} , then re-added again after removal, not sure if that counts as EditWar or not.
As pointed out by the reasoning stated she didn't deter him from driving, she didn't call for an UBER. She waited till he was on the road then called the Police to advise of a drunk driver, including his car model essentially setting him up. As critics and other audiences pointed out she set him up to take his spot, ruining his life and deflecting blame. Making his character sympathetic.
As the example was re-added without reasoning am I able to remove it again.
Edited by Tuvokresolved First post Live Action TV
Hello,do you have any example of a live action tv show or movie where a mother involves herself in a sex for services situation to benefit her kid in some way?Other than those already present on this site i mean
openIndexing Law and Order episodes Live Action TV
Apologies in advance if I missed something, a thread, a how to, but my searches have been fruitless. I am filling in Law and Order episode recaps, but I don't know how to index them once they are created. I've been able to self teach and learn from other posts, but this one I'm stuck on.
openPedro Pascal Roles Live Action TV
A while back, someone greatly expanded the filmography section of Creator.Pedro Pascal, with roles previously unmentioned and/or lacking their own pages. Some of these include instances of him playing himself in something nonfictional, or narrating a documentary. Do these usually go on actors' pages?
Today I removed a credit for him hosting SNL, because I noticed pages for actors who've hosted more than once don't mention it in the filmography.
openLucy Lane = Unintentionally Unsympathetic? Live Action TV
A few days ago, I described Lucy, younger sister of Lois Lane, as Unintentionally Unsympathetic in the YMMV page of Superman & Lois with the following argument:
"An argument can be made that Lucy was treated with a lot of sympathy for someone who willingly betrayed her own family and endangered her own universe in service of a cult leader. Over the course of season 2, Lucy attempts to destroy her sister's reputation, drugs her father to break Ally out of military custody and almost gets Superman (her own brother-in-law) killed but her family doesn't have any hard feelings against her. Further aggravating the issue is that she doesn't suffer any comeuppance for her actions. Sure, she feels guilty for almost getting Superman killed, but it comes off as Lucy repenting her actions when she herself suffers from them. Possibly justified due to the fact that Sam and Lois aren't angry at Lucy but rather at Ally for manipulating Lucy and at themselves for failing Lucy when she needed them most, but it's still notable."
I really don't want to come off as the guy trying to editorialize his opinions and I certainly don't hate Lucy as a character or as a concept. I just don't like what the show did with Lucy.
So, what do you think?
Edited by MasterHero

So… if any of you can remember, a couple of months ago I started the Ultra Series Characters initiative, a humongous reorganization of the Ultra Series character pages to bring them more in line with modern Verse-based structure, rather then the installment-based organization currently in use, I abandoned it a while back, but seeing Vengeful Bale’s Ultra pages (Characters Ultra Series Ultraman Belial and Tregear) renewed my interest in the project, and I intend to return to the project.
Now why did I do this you might ask? Well it’s simple, unlike his contemporaries, Ultraman has a massive Rogues Gallery, and because of his Legacy Character nature, they often reoccur between series, which means that every Ultraman character page has approximately a dozen "See Literally Any Ultraman Show" entries scattered across the Ultrapages, which leaves the Ultra Series a tad disorganized.
So, should I go through with this? I remember a similar Jurassic Park reorganization of mine being rejected because of how self-contained every film is, but can the same apply to Ultraman?
Edited by GeneralGigan