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openWasted Character? - Edit War
keyblade333 has added the following example of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character to Wonder Woman (2017):
"Ares is one Wonder Woman's top villains in terms of influence, power, and overall notability. The choice to end the very first solo film with him defeated is seen as a huge waste by many viewers, as Ares easily is strong enough that he could be a good climatic villain at the end of perhaps another movie that builds up to him. He even works well as a potential Big Bad for a Justice League style villain if built up enough. Sadly he is killed after appearing at the end with no real build up."
I don't think this is a valid example because, as stated in the trope's page, "this trope is about ignored characters with good potential who never receive the spotlight (or do so just once and then get removed or forgotten)". Ares' machinations are the catalyst for everything that goes wrong in the narrative, and I don't understand what they mean by "no real build up", given that killing him is Wonder Woman's entire motivation for most of the film.
The entry also argues that Ares deserved to be the villain of another film, but this violates another of this trope's rules: "(This trope) is not about leading characters who are not used the way you would like; there are infinite alternative ways any given character could have been used."
It should be noted that this is the second time this troper has added such an example to the page, so I cannot do anything about it without edit warring myself. Can I get some opinions?
open Reporting edit war, including self-report.
Troper Duncril 01 is still at it with removing Arch-Enemy from hero pages and insisting it is a villain only tropes, despite this already being resolved on this thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=95619&type=att
I undid the edits here
and here
while linking that thread as the edit reasons PLUS private messaging them, but he has failed to respond or listen, redoing the same edits that got undone.
I presume he has also removed this trope from countless other character pages too, but I'm not sure which ones.
Edited by Snowy66openGrojfan
Grojfan’s been showing numerous issues in their edits.
- They added images to Headscratchers.My Gym Partners A Monkey and Trivia.Casagrandes. The former is under “No Pic” on Image Pickin' Special Cases, and the latter probably shouldn’t have a pic either.
- They added an image to Heartwarming.The Casagrandes which I don’t understand in the slightest.
- Some self-indentation here
.
- This edit has two ZCEs, some concerning usage of the r-word, and some odd misuse of
Depraved Bisexual.
- Transphobic edit with more bad indentation and some CRF misuse
.
- Created NauseaFuel.My Gym Partners A Monkey, which has lots of ZCEs.
- They also added lots of misuse to Radar.My Gym Partners A Monkey (which they also created), but all of that is from a while ago.
resolved Two more screwed up custom titles
Bara and Girl Love (both of them locked redirects) are displaying as "Bara Genre" and "Yuri Genre" respectively. This type of move was common in the old days, but we no longer allow custom title renames.
The latter is not to be confused with Girls' Love, itself a redirect to Yuri Genre, which displays properly.
(If the following links both display correctly, the issue has been fixed: Bara, Girl Love.)
openMisused as not explanations?
I've removed Fan-Disliked Explanation examples as just being fan-disliked (like X hooked up with Y) but not explanations (how or why X happened). With that I bring up the following:
- Applejack's parents are both deceased, and fans almost universally liked and accepted the idea that Applejack's hat was a Tragic Keepsake from one of them to the point that it fell into Word of Dante territory. Then one of the shorts torpedoed that headcanon by having her declare she won it bobbing for apples at a fair. Fans were quick to fanwank a compromise
. When that was further jossed by showing she has a closet full of identical hats, the bronies proved they were that dedicated to the Tragic Keepsake idea and still insisted that one of the hats was special or simply chose to ignore the closet gag altogether. When she threw her damaged hat away without any of the angst that would support the fanon, fans threw the hat a quick funeral, and still embraced the Tragic Keepsake fanon. Some less seriously than others
. The eventual reveal that her father did wear an identical hat remedied this for a lot of fans, for if nothing else, Applejack got her fashion sense from him even if she didn't get the hat itself.
- Fans were under the impression Luna's turn into Nightmare Moon was purely the result of her giving in to her own feelings of being overshadowed and under-appreciated by the ponies of Equestria, in line with the opening narration of the show. The IDW comics however would explain that it was an outside source that was the cause of the transformation, having taken advantage of this feelings rather than Luna herself deliberately turning against Celestia. When these events were finally shown it was kept ambiguous whether Luna was in full control or not, and showed that Nightmare Moon's "reign" lasted for about an hour at most consisting of a very brief fight between her and Princess Celestia before Nightmare Moon was defeated and banished. Overall, fans found this underwhelming to say the least, felt the show's detailing of the events very disappointing for something so anticipated, and believe said events make Luna's guilt over it come off as silly and overblown to some fans to the point of Fridge Logic unless they take later comics as canon.
- "Tanks for the Memories" implying that less than a year has passed in the series since "May the Best Pet Win". Many fans found it utterly ridiculous that three seasons' worth of episodes all happened to take place within such a short time frame.
The 1st and 3rd I think are misused as they are just refuting popular fan theories as opposed to offering alternative explanations (the implication may even have been unintentional). The 1st half of the second entry is valid if reworked, but the 2nd half (which I added before I realized the possible issue) I'm not sure if it's this or just Jossed as, while it shows how the fight went down, I'm not sure if it reveals it in a way that can be considered an explanation as it was incidental and plot-irrelevant as opposed to meant to explain a question about the setting.
Thoughts?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaughtopen Huge edit on The Mandalorian with some issues
Yesterday Schnikeys made a truly massive edit to Series.The Mandalorian, changing over 80 lines. This was the edit reason given:
There's a bunch of things to talk about here. First, the edit summary leaves out mention of a large number of tweaks such as inserting potholes, adding natter, justifying edits, rewriting entries to be more favorable to certain characters and more critical to others, etc.
The absurdly large number of changes, many of which are relatively minor and mixed in with legitimate cleanup edits, means digging up and listing everything would take ages, but here's the biggest issue - an enormous wall of text appended to this already long trope entry, in blatant "justifying edit" / "conversation in the main page" manner:
- Cult: The Mandalorians of the enclave are so fanatically devoted to the old ways of Mandalore that they won't remove their helmets for any reason while in public and consider someone else attempting to remove it a grave insult. Not even Death Watch was that bad. In contrast to Death Watch, however, their traditions are focused on preservation of their culture, as opposed to battle for the sake of it. Chapter 11 confirms that they are indeed a religious cult, as Mando meets Bo-Katan and learns that most other Mandalorians do not actually follow such extreme ideals as refusing to remove their helmets in public. It is further revealed that they are called the Children of the Watch, suggesting they were actually started by the remnants of Death Watch, or Mando's sect and Death Watch stem from a common ancestor splinter-faction of Mandalorians.
- Subverted (or possibly outright averted) in that the customs of Mando’s Tribe are completely practical in light of the very recent Great Purge. Due to Chapter 8, we know that the Empire (and subsequently the Imperial remnants) has access to the personal information of ''every’’ Mandalorian registered on Mandalore at the time of the genocide — definitely including their names, since that’s how Moff Gideon knew Mando’s, and probably including their faces as well. Just about every other episode features someone either groping Mando’s armor or outright trying to steal it off of his body: if you take off your armor, it’ll probably be the last thing you do. Chapter 8 shows that a group of Mandalorians appearing in public together is enough to bring an Imperial pogrom down on the covert: of course they only appear one at a time. Tossing your name and/or face around is probably enough by itself to paint a big stormtrooper-shaped target on your back: of course you wouldn’t be able to go back to a highly-confidential location where your persecuted minority is hiding your children after that kind of security breach. Add all of that to the fact that in Chapter 4, Mando is very clear about the fact that wearing the armor is a completely voluntary choice and that no one in his community is going to come after him for leaving their group, even though he’s their primary provider… suddenly, the covert looks a lot more like refugees in a surveillance state than a [[Cult cult]].
EDIT: Another user has pointed out that the troper has also been adding non-YMMV items to the show's YMMV page.
Edited by Dirtyblue929openWhy was the Wario thread locked?
This thread in particular : It's'a Wario Time!
The last post was thumped. Having read that post before it was thumped, I understand why it was thumped. I'm not disputing that. However the thread itself seems to be valid, it's about the Wario series, and as far as I know you are allowed to have general videogame series threads in the videogame subforum. I don't see why the thread needed to be locked. Again I am not contesting the thumping of the last post.
Edit: On the advice of Kevjro 7 I took it to the appeal to the dicussions about moderation
thread.
open Edit war
It's about Daenerys Targeryen again.
The original entry by Eolewyn 1010 here
:
- Daenerys has this at least In-Universe: Missandei, Grey Worm and, to a degree, even Varys constantly tell people that she is a great queen with a sense for justice, Jorah Mormont more than once states she has a "gentle heart". Except this is the very same queen who feeds men to her dragons, commenting that they very well "could all be innocent" of the crime she accuses them of, brings hundreds of thousands of raping and killing warriors into her native land so that they may raid the country and people and burns defeated enemies alive because they refuse to bow to her. Daenerys even has this on herself, as she keeps telling that she will "break the wheel", meaning the social structure that suppresses many people in favor of few others, but at the same time she conquers lands, destroys fleets and ground and kills hundreds of people in order to become queen - thus, their superior.
Deleted by White Wolf 4961 with the reason "This is all clearly anti Dany. Besides that one master, when has she ever fed people to her dragons? And she didn’t bring the Dothraki to rape and pillage with impunity. In fact she was horrified at what they did to that village in S1. Besides what she’s done is hardly any different to what other “good leaders” like the Starks have done."
Re-added by Nerdanel Noldo with the reason "Restoring this because the reasons it was deleted are incorrect. This is not Anti-Daenerys, it's stating what she did in the show. Aside from downplaying the horrific things Daenerys did, the previous editor said that the starks did horrible things too, which they did not, but this ignores the point: the starks weren't continously described as having a 'gentle heart' and being so kind and compassionate, unlike Daenerys."
I'm honestly exhausted with Daenerys arguments at this point, but I think it's worth noting that Nerdanel has a history of edits that seem to slant towards an anti-Dany bias. This
, this
, and and this
are all deletions made in Sansa's defense (some of which may be okay, but Sansa isn't absolutely blameless in some of her Season 8 actions), and the edit reasons are filled with insults at Dany. This
, too, but the first sentence in the edit reason is "The whole entry is just stupid."
Also, imo, Nerdanel's edit reasons tend to be filled with misinformation or misinterpretation that seems deliberate. The aforementioned entry talks about Dany being cruel for crucifying people, leaving out that said people murdered children and slaves and did the same thing to them. This one
calls Mirri Maz Duur an innocent, leaving out that she killed Dany's unborn child. This
and this
, though, are just so blatantly incorrect and I daresay trying to defend Viserys, of all people, saying he "was good to Dany for years" (he constantly abused and sexually assaulted her) and didn't sell Dany to Drogo, and that it was just an arranged marriage. (So, I guess that "I would let all 10,000 Dothraki and their horses fuck you" comment just never happened.) It honestly feels like they're trying to undermine the things Dany suffered through just because they don't like her.
openAvengers 1000000 B.C. Print Comic
I just found Avengers 1000000 BC, a page which was created almost a month ago.
And I'm not sure why the page itself exists, as Avengers 1000000BC isn't a work, it's a group of characters that have appeared in various works (8 major appearances
in 3 different works, and 6 minor appearances
in 3 different works if the Marvel wiki is to be believed).
So I don't get why they have their own page, and not just have their tropes listed on either a character page, or just the relevant tropes listed in the pages of the work's they've appeared in.
openEdit War in YMMV/FinalFantasyXV Videogame
Immortal Bear re-deleted
an entry I restored to Final Fantasy XV since their original deletion lacked an edit reason. They've provided an explanation after the fact, but most of it comes off as personal opinion and dislike of the Episode Ignis ending for reasons unrelated to what the original entry was about (that being that audience perception of its tone shifted due to Dot F), rather than an impartial collective observation of the reactions of the fandom at the time.
I've PM'd them as much, pointing out to them that they seem to take the YMMV label too literally as its actual focus is to describe audience responses to a work rather than to post personal opinions, that contrary to their belief the page is not trying to wage a war over which ending is objectively better, and I've also pointed out to them that though they claim the only people with a non-negative opinion are a Vocal Minority, other tropers have made the same observations as me regarding the state of the fandom at the time.
They seem to believe that because Dawn of the Future has an overall score of 9.0 on Good Reads (which often has a userbase culture distinct from the social media sites I frequent like Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit, or imageboards, and whose score doesn't always take into account things like the specific comparative tone of the ending), while Episode Ignis rates an average of 7.0 (the score again mostly focusing on things like gameplay rather than tone), that it invalidates everything I've said above, since I don't have hard sources on hand for every tweet or social media comment I've seen regarding people being softer on Episode Ignis's ending or disliking Dawn of the Future's approach.
I don't think that makes for an effective counterargument as YMMV does not mandate sources in general, and Dawn of the Future's perception outside of GR tends to attract a lot of negativity in its own right, not to mention disregarding said potential inherent selection bias (the people posting reviews were probably accepting enough of the controversies around the book to read through the whole thing). The reviews themselves on GR are variable with many positive scores criticizing the ending, and many reviews that praise the ending having mediocre scores on the whole.
None of the arguments they've provided contradict the initial point (that people's opinions of Episode Ignis became less hostile once Dawn of the Future was announced) of nor justify the deletion of the entry describing how people's hostility to a certain alternate ending seen as overly happy, dipped off once another, even happier ending showed up. Especially since the edit reason for deleting it is focused mostly on arguing why Alternate Ending #1 is badly written and any talk of audience reactions is more about pointing out that a portion of the audience exist who liked the other newer, even happier ending, even though the original entry never claimed otherwise or to speak for the entirety of the fandom.
Update: They are now accusing me of outright lying and being biased in favor of one ending for disputing their deletions, despite the major issues here having to do with a lack of, followed by questionably irrelevant removal reasons in what is a potential edit war. Update 2: They've taken it back after I explained myself further.
Edited by AlleyOopopenGenre Turning Point question
I discovered in the edit history for Genre Turning Point that the page once had real life examples, but they were deleted in March 2017 by Nohbody with the edit reason "none of those are trope examples". Despite this, the page is listed under Keep Real Life Examples. While I believe that the examples deleted may not count since there is no "genre" being changed, they were deleted without explanation, and as mentioned the page is indexed under an index that indicates real life examples can stay. What should I do? Should I restore them? Keep them removed? Temporarily restore and then figure out what to do with them? Go through the examples and see which ones are legit, if any? I'm puzzled as to what to do.
The examples in question:
- When Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon with his army rather than surrender to his rivals he made all but inevitable the fall of the Roman Republic and the birth of The Roman Empire. The very shape of Western Europe (and thus by extension some of the shape of the rest of the world) were set from one course to another by one man's personal ambition.
- The Black Death decimated Europe's population in the mid-14th century with repercussions felt for decades. Some of these still felt today, according to various scholars, may have included:
- The foundations of the Protestant Reformation and the weakening of Church authority in general
- A rise in anti-Semitism and other prejudices
- The end of feudal economy and the rise of the middle class: Because laborers and craftsmen were fewer and could therefore demand higher wages, allowing them to accumulate wealth.
- The rise of paper and printing, as lawyers forced to settle a large number of estates began to wish that more of everything was written down, which increased demand for people who could write, which led to people looking for faster ways to produce documents. Eventually, they hit upon the printing press.
- The Agricultural Revolution: In order to increase the efficiency of food production, which the plague had squeezed. Also, great lords realized that running larger farms with hired hands was more efficient than serfdom.
- The Industrial Revolution—Indirectly, as a result of several of the above factors; the accumulation of wealth in the hands of craftsmen (which allowed them to start profit-making businesses that eventually turned into industries), the Protestant Reformation (which encouraged a burst of new thought in all directions, and also led to the establishment of the community of English Dissenters, who it just happened were mostly craftsmen, and whose response to Anglican discrimination—which had the effect of pigeonholing them as craftsmen and merchants—was to invent the modern world), and the Agricultural Revolution (which freed up labor to work in factories when industrialization happened, and also created fabulous wealth for farm-owning nobles, many of whom bankrolled industrial ventures basically because they had nothing better to do with their money).
- People of European ancestry having greater resistance to HIV, which some scientists have linked to antibodies originally developed by people who survived the plague.
- The plague also returned periodically for centuries afterward, leading to boom/bust population cycles which didn't really end until the colonial age.
- King John of England (the real-life king behind the Robin Hood tales) managed to screw things up quite badly in England; botched wars, high taxes, and getting the nation excommunicated for a few years. His frustrated and angered barons united and forced John to sign the Magna Carta (Great Charter). Now the monarchs had to at least be accountable to the nobles. The Magna Carta also established concepts like due process of law being required before stripping a non-serf of land and property, limitations on the king's powers, and a provision where a council of 25 nobiles could overrule the king's decree. It became the first restraints of absolute monarchy in England, and paved the way for the eventual triumph of parliament over monarchy.
Winston Churchill: We owe far more to the vices of John than to the labours of virtuous sovereigns.
- The Fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453 is widely considered by historians to mark the official end of The Middle Ages and the final nail in the coffin of The Roman Empire (the Byzantines always considered themselves to be Romans, referring to their territory as Romania), which had existed for nearly 1500 years if one combines the ruling years of Ancient Rome and the Byzantine Empire together.
- The massive outflow of Greek scholars from Constantinople greatly influenced and accelerated the birth of The Renaissance in Europe.
- The sudden removal of the Byzantine Empire as a buffer-zone between Christian Europe and the Muslim Middle East, as well as the removal of the main overland trade-link between Europe and Asia, led to rapid advancements in warfare and seafaring technology within Europe for the first time in centuries.
- The fact that the Ottomans were now blocking the Silk Road led European navigators to pursue alternative routes to the riches of the Far East, which brings us onto...
- Perhaps most famous of all, Christopher Columbus' discovery of the West Indies in 1492 was The Beginning Of The End for every major civilization in North and South America, along with much of the native populations. At the same time, northern Europe, which had been a cultural backwater for centuries, entered a new era of vast riches and world domination. It triggered the Columbian Exchange, the exchange of crops, goods and people across continents, leading to items such as the potato, cocoa, chocolate and coffee being spread as far as China.
- Though the Black Death may have gotten the ball rolling economically (see above), the Wars of the Roses officially signaled the end of the feudal system in Britain, while also definitively ending three centuries of dominance by The House of Plantagenet. They showed just how much chaos could result from a weak monarch leaving too much power in the hands of landholding nobles guided by petty grudges and ambitions, with a personal quarrel between the Duke of Somerset and the Duke of York gradually spiraling into the most devastating civil war that Britain had ever seen. In an age when the Plantagenet bloodline had become so widespread and diluted that multiple second and third cousins of the King could seize the throne by virtue of being direct descendants of Edward III, it was only a matter of time before the young Henry VI became a pawn of his scheming Lancastrian advisors and his ambitious Yorkist cousins. When the Wars were finally settled by the rise of The House of Tudor, Henry VII and his successors made damn sure that the same thing would never happen again. Under the Tudors, the monarchy's power grew to unprecedented levels, with a well-developed central bureaucracy presiding over far more aspects of public life than ever before.
- The Peace of Westphalia (1648), which ended the Thirty Years' War, originated the modern conception of state sovereignty (including territorial integrity and modern diplomatic relations), not just for the states involved, but all future states as well. It also removed The Pope and the Roman Catholic Church from European politics for good, finishing what the Black Death had started two centuries prior.
- The Protestant Reformation definitively broke the long-unchallenged binary between the Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Eastern Orthodox Church in the East, marking a major milestone in the Western World moving past the old vestiges of the The Roman Empire that endured through Rome and Constantinople's surviving religious institutions. It showed that there were far more ways of interpreting Christianity than anyone could have imagined before, and it challenged the idea that any earthly religious authority—like the Pope or the Ecumenical Patriarch—could have a monopoly on interpreting the word of God for the masses. Once Martin Luther opened the floodgates by founding the Lutheran Church, a host of others denominations followed in short order, including the Calvinists under John Calvin, the Swiss Protestants under Ulrich Zwingli, the Anabaptists under Thomas Müntzer, and the Anglicans under King Henry VIII—all of whom (directly or indirectly) fueled the geneses of the Presbyterians in Scotland, the Puritans in England, and the Baptists and Episcopalians in America. Likewise, the movement spread literacy through the use of the printing press and as per Max Weber, it paved the way for the development of capitalism. The world was never the same again.
- When the 1755 Lisbon earthquake and resulting tsunami and fire devastated the capital of Portugal and left tens of thousands dead, its aftershocks weren't limited to just the physical ones, or even to how it left Portugal's colonial ambitions up in smoke and solidified the power of the prime minister (the Marquis of Pombal's effective response to the earthquake saw the old aristocracy effectively sidelined). The disaster, which struck a devoutly Catholic city on All Saints' Day and left nearly every church (along with about 85% of the city) in ruins, had a tremendous impact on Enlightenment-era European thought that, two centuries later, Theodor W. Adorno compared to the reaction to The Holocaust, shaking the faith of many people in the idea of a just and benevolent god. The Great Lisbon Earthquake has been cited as the birth of atheism, with Voltaire, most notably, using the example of the earthquake in Candide and Poème sur le désastre de Lisbonne to savagely attack the philosophical optimism of his peers.
- The American Revolution (c. 1774-1783) decisively changed international politics forever. It was the first modern democracy, and thus the trope maker for much of what we now think of as Western democracy. It directly or indirectly inspired revolutions for nearly a century and a half (from 1776 to 1918) - in particular the anti-monarchist nature of most of these revolts. It arguably represents the point at which guerilla warfare and firearms first met. And finally, it was the first time that an imperial European power was defeated by a non-European one. It was also the first example of a nation dominated by people of obvious European extraction, speaking a language from Europe, nevertheless declaring themselves a separate, non-European nation, paving the way for revolutions in Haiti, Ireland and independence movements across the world.
- The French Revolution put an end to one of the oldest monarchies in Europe and left France as a veritable laboratory of political experimentation for the next century (the only monarch afterwards who tried to pretend that things hadn't changed that much did not last long), eventually making it into a solidly Republican country. The Revolution's army reforms also changed the notion of warfare as per Carl von Clausewitz and marked the first modern "total war". The Revolution also proved, albeit briefly and imperfectly, that a democracy can govern over a large area of land, that an army of Conscription and meritocratic ranks can not only defend itself against professional aristocratic armies but that they can win wars and take territories as well. Before the Revolution, the main argument against republican forms of government and democracy was that it only applied to small city states and small populations.Even Jean-Jacques Rousseau (the guiding spirit behind the Revolution) agreed with this but the Revolution, regardless of later contradictions and reversals, put a permanent dent in that belief.
- The US Constitution's Bill of Rights and the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, both of which were first drafted in 1789, are the Trope Codifiers for the modern concepts of liberal democracy and human rights. While some of those rights had appeared in the Magna Carta in the fourteenth century (though many of them had previously suddenly lapsed halfway across the Atlantic for British colonial subjects), the 1789 documents took what were historically viewed as peculiar customs of the English (and Welsh and Scots and Irish, but nobody on the Continent paid any attention to those) and turned them into universal rules. The American Bill of Rights and French Declaration of Rights declared the rights they defended to be inherent, "natural" human rights, with which the state could not legitimately interfere, rather than being the merely traditional "Rights of Englishmen" guaranteed by Magna Carta.
- Inverted with the Revolutions of 1848, "the Spring of Nations" described by historian G. M. Trevelyan as the the turning point where "history failed to turn". He and later historians note that the general failure of the events and the triumph of the repressive governments to put it down pointed out the greater strength of autocratic nations to police the population. But at the same time, the revolution did force many of these nations to move on a path of reform.
- In Germany, this event led to what some historians call Sonderweg (though it is disputed and contentious). In this view, Germany launched on a "Special Path" towards modernization where feudal structures and values were synthesized with modern ideals, leading to the rise of Otto von Bismarck who changed and organized Germany "from above" to prevent revolution "from below". This in turn paved the way for greater authoritarianism in German society, finally reaching its climax in the rise and fall of the Third Reich.
- The American Civil War turned the American economic and political map upside down. The Southern states that made up the Confederacy, which had once been the wealthiest region in the country, became a backwater for a century following the destruction of the exploitative chattel slavery system, which had been the key pillar of their economy; no longer could the Southern gentry lash and beat their way into prosperity on the backs of their slaves. The end of slavery, likewise, planted the seed for the newly-freed African American community to establish their independence, setting the stage for the Great Migration
and, later, the Civil Rights Movement, though in the short term, unfortunately, it led to a racist backlash
from both Southern whites who resented their loss of status and Northern whites who feared competition from black labor. Beyond slavery and race relations, the example that had been made of the Confederacy firmly established the supremacy of the federal government over the states and the idea of the US as a singular nation rather than a collection of such, up to and including a shift in language
; before the war, the US was most commonly described in plural terms ("the United States are"), while afterwards, it was described in singular terms ("the United States is"). Finally, the industrial might that the Union used to overpower the Confederacy laid the groundwork for the industrial wars of the 20th century, which would be fully realized in World War I (see below).
- The Hurricane of 1900 that struck Galveston, Texas sent it into a long decline while turning Houston into a booming port town. NASA and oil would finish the job. The construction of the Houston Ship Channel played a significant role in the shift as well.
- The Great San Francisco Earthquake (1906) for California. Before the quake, San Francisco was the largest city on the West Coast, and Los Angeles' population was less than a million, nowhere near the second largest city in the United States. The quake and the Hollywood boom were instrumental in shifting the population southward.
- A second turning point in The '80s came when San Francisco started attracting computer technology firms, partly due to Apple, and partly due to Berkeley and Stanford's top-notch computing laboratories. Then the Internet went mainstream, and the San Francisco Bay Area is now considered a mecca for computing startups and cutting edge tech. On the downside, the split between the sheltered, highly paid techies and the lower-paid non-technology workers has led to skyrocketing rents, shuttered landmarks, and a nasty cultural divide.
- World War I. Although the American Civil War was arguably the first "industrial" war, World War I was pivotal (and traumatic) for how it oversaw the realization of a total war fueled by industrial production and weaponry. Beyond even military technology and tactics, World War I brought about the collapse of the great autocratic multinational empires that had once dominated Europe's history - Russia, the Ottoman Empire, and Austria-Hungary - and made representative democracies based around a nation-state representing one historical/ethnic group the ideal if not the norm (with a couple of big exceptions...). Then, World War I and its aftermath was key in raising nationalist resentments and economic hardships that would nourish the Fascist movement. At the same time it brought about not only the collapse of Tsarist Russia, but the failure of the democratic Russian state that immediately succeeded it and the rise of the Soviet Union, transforming the driving force in world history from the competition between Europe's colonial empires to the struggle between democratic-capitalist, Fascist, and Communist ideologies. Finally, the war gave the world the League of Nations, the doomed but still important precursor to the United Nations.
- The fall of the Ottoman Empire changed, overnight, the cultural and regional landscape of the Middle East. The division of territories between France and England, the rise of Arab Nationalism and other issues of the time, directly paved the way for much of the later conflicts in the region that continue to the present day.
- The Statute of Westminister in 1931, which redefined the relationship between the United Kingdom, the British Monarchy, and the various dominions which had once been colonies, marked the start of the peaceful end of the most widespread empire in human history as The British Empire became the (British) Commonwealth. The Suez Crisis of 1956 and the intervening period of decolonization and independence movements, marked the fading of England as the world's pre-eminent superpower, giving way to America and USSR.
- After World War II (1937/1939-1945) the world system of international relations was restructured drastically, with a new emphasis on not just sovereignty (already codified by the Peace of Westphalia) but (legal) equality between states. The old alliances of Europe were finished (World War I had previously shown how destructive they could be) in favour of new ones like NATO and the United Nations. It also discredited Anti-Semitism (at least in the West) to a great extent, and the led directly to the creation of The European Union. It also saw the end of American isolationism and saw the drastic increase of the US military in all branches.
- Once the world got used to the end of World War II, the Cold War changed things all over again by showing people a very new kind of warfare. The United States and the Soviet Union emerged as superpowers and became the bitterest of rivals, but both of them eventually possessed enough nuclear weapons between them to bring about The End of the World as We Know It. The result? Traditional warfare between the two suddenly wasn't an option—leading to the age of proxy wars and the rise of the intelligence services. In short order, the American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) was formed in 1947, with the Russian Komitet gosudarstvennoy bezopasnosti (KGB) following in 1954, followed by three decades of up-and-down tensions as NATO and the Eastern Bloc backed competing factions in nearly every country that wasn't already allied with either of them. It seemed inevitable that the standoff would ultimately climax with World War III. But then...
- On the 13th of September, 1989, a non-Communist government was formed by the Polish parliament, and the Soviet Union declined to force them to do otherwise. This kicked off The Great Politics Mess Up: within weeks, the entity variously called the Eastern Bloc and the Warsaw Pact, the great enemy everyone had been planning to fight in World War III... simply went away. Just over a year later Germany was reunited, and a year after that the Soviet Union itself finally went into the dustbin of history. Western democracies were stunned to discover that the Cold War was over, had never turned hot, and they'd won.
Austin Powers: Oh, smashing, groovy, yay capitalism!
- There's a reason why the combined oral contraceptive pill, first approved by the FDA in 1960, is so often referred to as just "the Pill". Contraception had existed since the dawn of civilization, but the Pill was far more effective than the crude condoms and diaphragms of the past — and more importantly, it gave women full agency in whether or not to get pregnant. It played a large role in the emerging sexual revolution of The '60s, which in turn kicked into overdrive the already-bubbling second wave of the feminist movement and the genesis of the organized LGBT rights movement. A vast number of the social changes of the '60s and '70s can be directly attributed to this one little pill.
- This article
in Time makes the case that an epidemic of rubella in 1964-65 played a large role in the legalization of abortion in the United States and Western Europe, perhaps almost as much as the sexual revolution. Rubella is a fairly mild illness in most people, but pregnant women who catch it often give birth to infants with severe birth defects. As a result, when the epidemic broke out, it led to thousands of 'respectable' (i.e. white, married, middle-class) women getting 'therapeutic' abortions to terminate pregnancies that had a high likelihood of producing babies that would suffer a lifetime of medical problems, if they survived long at all. This effectively broke the stigma that had surrounded abortion, which was previously viewed as something that was done by women who were poor, unwed, and 'deviant'. Less than ten years later, the Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade legalized abortion across the United States, and similar laws were passed throughout Western Europe.
- The terrorist attacks of September 11 brought about The War On Terror and redefined the relationship between the U.S. government and the Muslim world. In addition, it also triggered a series of game-changing reforms in the U.S. intelligence community.
openEdit War
Troper.Accursed Fans has edit warred on Devil, but No God over the Warhammer 40,000 example.
As the history shows
they added a section to the middle of the example about the Emperor that I removed and they later put back. Now while I admit the edit reason I gave wasn't great (I was in a bit of a rush at the time) I did send a custom notifier to them explaining myself betternote and noting that I believe the entire 40k entry should be removed as the description of the trope seems to indicate that good has to exist for it to be an example and as the setting is black vs. grey to black vs. black depending on the edition and writer is shouldn't count, and stating that they edit warred, but they appear to have ignored it (they have edited since), as they have other edit notifiers I have sent them in the past.
I would also note that Troper.Accursed Fans was previously been suspended for edit warring in march over a similar issue involving Warhammer 40,000.
Edited by SebastianGrayopenWhat exactly counts as a Creator of a work when it comes to tropes covering them.
On the Trivia.Genshin Impact page, I added a Teasing Creator example yesterday specifically about a Tweet of another game's official Twitter account (of Honkai Impact 3rd) replying to a topic about this game (GI). I originally worded in it a way that mentions the official HI3 Twitter account playing along with the "Multiverse/Crossover/collab theories or Epileptic Trees in the two related fandoms.
However ~coconutkirin deleted the part about the Tweet with the edit reason of "I don't consider the official account admins as "god" enough for this example to count".
I PM'd coconut as well, but I'll just create an ATT regarding the scope/limitations of Teasing Creator regardless.
Although their edit reason might sound YMMV because of the phrase "I don't consider" (but I myself consider the official account as a source), now I'm actually confused on what source does or doesn't count within the context of that trope.
Are Twitter accounts valid for Teasing Creator or not? What if one troper doesn't consider them as a source but another troper does? Because I consider the official Twitter account as an official source for "Creator" tropes, I would personally restore the example I added before. But since it was deleted because another troper doesn't consider the official Twitter account for the example, which is which? Or, based on their edit reason, what is considered "god" enough for Teasing Creator examples to be counted?
I added that Tweet to Teasing Creator simply because I saw other Teasing Creator examples that use official Twitter accounts, or use general statements regarding the company. For example, the trope page lists the following:
- In January 2018, Nintendo fans were anxiously awaiting the announcement of a rumored January 11th Nintendo Direct.note Nintendo Directs are online videos that detail upcoming content for Nintendo systems Yes, not the video itself, but the announcement that there would be one. The fanbase threw themselves into an absolute fervor, with cries of "Reset the clock!" occurring every hour for days in anticipation. Eventually, Nintendo of America acknowledged this on January 10th... by posting a picture of Chibi-Robo! on fire
. (The source is the official Twitter account)
- My Little Pony example - Before Season 3, people who worked on the show posted spoilers on their Twitter accounts. These spoilers were the fact that the new season would be cute and would contain ponies. (Mentions "people who work on the show.. posted on their Twitter accounts".).
open Edit war
A pretty angry edit war is happening on the YMMV page for Blue Valentine
This is the original Misaimed Fandom entry:
- Misaimed Fandom: Young, aimless men are more likely to overidentify with Dean and characterize him as a good husband and father who is unfairly treated, instead of a pushy, needy, manipulative an immature, needy drunk who rarely takes Cindy's feelings into consideration.
Aviator Fan added this:
- In much the same vein, young, flighty women are likely to overempathize with Cindy and lionize her struggling working woman traits, instead of clocking her poor model of spousal relations- the effects of which she clearly brings into, not only her relationship with Dean, but presumably her other dalliances, her promiscuity, and her general coldness towards Dean despite his genuine attempts to reach out to her.
With the reason "Elaboration, fullness of analysis, alternate perspective."
H Barnill deleted it without a reason.
Aviator Fan then deleted the original MF entry with "Coolness. Dishonesty in not reflecting the whole truth of the fact that both genders are likely to experience the film differently. Counter to the deletion of the entry of the inverse misaimed fandom"
kyeo re-added the original saying "yeah we don't actually need to both-sides this"
Aviator Fan deleted it again. "Well we actually kind of do need to both sides it. You see the film doesn't present either side as right or wrong. It presents it as two people, because of what they are individually bringing into it that's detrimental to the relationship, are not good together. Despite that they may love each other. I could see if this were a movie in which there was, say, a rape. Where totally. We don't need to really both sides it or even give the man's feelings beforehand because it can be seen as an attempt to justify his actions. It's however pretty strange and, in keeping with the site's general unofficial policy, pretty uncool to suggest that women can't be subject to getting hit with misaimed fandom in this case as well. Ignoring the problems of the Michelle William's character. To that end, if that's what we're going to suggest, it's eminently more appropriate for no one to be accused of being a victim of the misaimed fandom trope. As, again, to suggest that it's only men who are, is clearly a simplified partisan take that doesn't do the even-handed, nuanced film's presentation of itself accurate justice."
kyeo re-added it. "nope."
Aviator Fan deleted it. "Political opinion."
kyeo re-added it. "you're literally only deleting this because your mra screed got deleted."
Aviator Fan re-added his edit to the original. "You're a real piece of work, but considering how accurate, non argumentative, and in the spirit of the site my edit is, we can play these games til the cows come home lol"
kyeo deleted it. "Lol bye"
Re-add. "Taking this Very personally. It's weird. Love it lmao"
Deleted. "imagine hating women this much"
Re-add. "Imagine not knowing how YMM Vs work. Imagine thinking you have some authority. Imagine projecting so much. Amazing."
Deleted. "Lol incels"
openWould these count as examples?
The trope is Eldritch Transformation:
- Naruto: Kaguya Ōtsutsuki merged with the God Tree in order to become the Ten-Tailed Beast.
- Neon Genesis Evangelion:
- The Evangelion units were created with the ultimate goal of facilitating this, being cyborg clones of the first Angel, Adam. The Classified Information included in Neon Genesis Evangelion 2 clarifies that SEELE intended to use the Human Instrumentality Project in order to attain godhood by merging themselves into an Evangelion unit, but Gendo Ikari intended to hijack their plan in order to reunite with his wife Yui.
- Evangelion Unit-01 was created from the lower half of the second Angel Lilith's body, with it being implied that Yui Ikari deliberately merged with it to throw a wrench into SEELE's plans and to be able to protect her son from what was coming.
- In End of Evangelion, Rei Ayanami — herself a half-Angel clone of Yui Ikari containing the soul of Lilith — merges with Adam and Lilith to become a planet-sized Humanoid Abomination with the power to annihilate all life on Earth.
openRegarding Sister Floriana and the case of stolen artwork.
So on this ATT thread
, there was a discussion regarding a now-permabanned troper's problematic edits which included alt-right apologism among other things. One of the things mentioned is a fanfic called Sister Floriana, and upon further investigation, there was the issue that the work was stealing art from a Japanese Twitter artist named Diva
, whom neither gave the fanfic writer permission to use their art, nor do they endorse the content of said fanfic.
Well, after taking a look myself, I found that Diva's artwork does actually belong to a work. It's called Little Nuns, and it's a webcomic of sorts which deals with the Moe hijinx of said nuns. It's very wholesome and does not contain any political stuff behind the scenes that the fanfic contains.
What are the policies for works stealing artwork directly from other works? Because Sister Floriana is sounding alarm bells over potential violation of rules on principle.
openExamples that Do not Seem to Fit
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DeconstructionFic/CitadelOfTheHeart
So I have been reading this page, and I am not sure that some of the examples really come off as Deconstructions
For example:
"Sword Art Online: Special Edition's Kazuto is a slacker who appreciates reality more than gaming, and believes staying at the Level 90 status he was in the actual game wouldn't be anything he'd have to worry about soon. Then shit begins to hit the fan and he and the others being to hastily take time out of their real life matters to level grind to deal with the associated threats at hands. Considering Kazuto was already rather high in level by MMO standards, he's shown later to not be far off from the (initial) cap in how high he had progressed so shortly."
- Sword Art Online: Special Edition's Kazuto is a slacker who appreciates reality more than gaming, and believes staying at the Level 90 status he was in the actual game wouldn't be anything he'd have to worry about soon. Then shit begins to hit the fan and he and the others being to hastily take time out of their real life matters to level grind to deal with the associated threats at hands. Considering Kazuto was already rather high in level by MMO standards, he's shown later to not be far off from the (initial) cap in how high he had progressed so shortly.
- Ryōtarō was only Level 8 when the story began. By the time Grandis reveals himself as a potential new threat within the next few days Level 154. What does Nobuyuki, of all people, have to say about the revelation?
These examples do not explain to me how something is being deconstructed (and honestly, in my opinion, do not come off that way, especially the second example)
"Some of the stuff from Code Lyoko becomes Ascended Fridge Horror because some of the nightmarish qualities of the show are given completed context. Project Carthage? An Ultimate Lifeform in the form of Mirror M that was created to be used against the Nazis in WWII. The Digital Sea? A weapon gone horribly to try and eliminate Mirror M twice. The fact that death cannot be reversed by the Return to the Past? Even Mirror M doesn't know that one considering he flat out admits he has no idea who the people even were that he was told he killed because he flat out can't remember they even existed..."
As even this example states, this does not seem to be Deconstruction but rather Ascended Fridge Horror. Or at least Cerberus Retcon
"Solgaleo and Lunala frequently have their armored bodies clipped and regenerated as to farm valuable materials necessary to craft armor that is designed to withstand the extreme environments of the Ultimorian Multiverse, since even the Ultimorian Deities themselves have major issues surviving there anymore. Grandis flat out admits that had Solgaleo and Lunala never existed nobody would've been able to go through there or into that place ever again."
This... feels nothing like what Deconstruction is supposed to be
- In terms of non-canon installments, Diary of an Analog introduces an antagonistic Alphamon known as Lady Sigma. However, this same OC Alphamon also exists in the main continuity. One might expect that there is a deliberate case of Adaptational Villainy applied to Lady Sigma in Diary of an Analog. In reality, there is actually no change to the overall characterization of Lady Sigma here. The only true difference in both canon and non-canon depiction is the fact the latter has actual free will as opposed to the canon version which has a heavily applied Restraining Bolt.
And this... well... it also does not feel like the trope.
Admittedly, though, from what I have heard, there seems to be a lot of debate on what exactly counts as a Deconstruction Fic. But I feel like this page could be given a look on if all the examples it holds at least fits what is the basic idea of Deconstruction Fic
open Rudeness
I'm concerned that the troper Nepworks is being rather rude to people. They're being pretty confrontational and mean on this TLP draft
; while a lot of tropers including myself have concerns about the draft, they're being the most aggressive about it. They're also being rather mocking on this TF query
.

Do Self Demonstrating character pages' example lists contain only tropes? Looks to be the case, but I'm asking before removing YMMV entries (specifically Adorkable).