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Ask the Tropers:
open Should JK Rowling's views on transgender people be mentioned on her Creator page?
As much as I hate to kick this hornet's nest, I'm honestly not sure where else to ask, since the discussion on the page itself seems to have died. On November 24th, Troper cerealking
deleted
a section of the article that mentions Rowling's views on transgender people with no edit reason given. I personally think it should be added to her biographical section (though not troped) as since 2019 she's been almost as (in)famous for her outspoken opposition to trans rights as for her other writing. Other creators such as Orson Scott Card who've become notorious for their reactionary views have it mentioned on their page, so why not Rowling?
openMay have caught an edit war + possible agenda
So last night, I found an interesting Anvilicious entry on YMMV.Mr Robot, which, among other things, complained about the lack of a “sympathetic” right-leaning character in the series. I had already taken that entry to the ROCEJ cleanup thread
, where it was agreed to cut the entry.
However, after going back and looking over the history again, I found that the Anvilicious entry was added by Oransel (who added the “lack of a sympathetic right-leaning character” bit) and after doing a quick look through their edit history, found an edit they made on YMMV.Star Trek Picard which talks about the series being even more “preachy” than usual Star Trek. cluosborne deleted the entry with the edit reason being “speculation”, but Oransel added it back with the reason “ How is this a speculation? It is a YMMV opinion, expressed by many people”. (I have next to no knowledge on Star Trek, so I can’t confirm this myself).
Based on what I know of this site’s rules, I’m pretty sure Oransel is (was?) edit warring (and possibly with some kind of agenda). Problem is, the Star Trek entry was from March of last year, and Oransel hasn’t edited since. I’m not sure if possible edit wars are still reportable even if it’s been a year since they happened.
Edited by worldwidewoomyopenUnintentionally Unsympathetic misuse or rework?
- Author's Saving Throw: Part of the reason Cortana's Face–Heel Turn in Halo 5: Guardians was so disputed is that it undid the emotional impact of her death in Halo 4. In this game, Cortana is given another chance to perform a Heroic Sacrifice by destroying part of Installation 07 to prevent the Banished from using it to their own ends, earning her a Dying as Yourself moment with the Chief.
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Despite Cortana having a reckoning with her actions and performing a Heroic Sacrifice, it ultimately all rings hollow as she's previously acted as a megalomaniacal A.I supremacist who killed an untold number of innocent people and sent whole planets back into the Stone Age in an imperialistic attempt to enforce peace on the galaxy while imprisoning Blue Team in a Cryptum for ten millennia after John refuses to toe the line with her agenda… all without batting an eye. The scene where Cortana spitefully uses the Guardians to commit genocide against the Jiralhanae on Doisac after Atroix refuses to submit to her (those Brutes having apparently done nothing to invoke her ire at all or even been planning against her) made many fans view her as undeserving of redemption after everything she's done and feel that her following Heel Realization was far too little, too late. In general, her apology seems like she is not upset about her actions themselves, but because of having no partners with her or about some of the consequences. The actual genocidal actions do not matter much to her as far as we are shown.
Besides the entries seeming to conflict, I believe UU doesn't apply to too much which is too subjective (and given they sacrificed their lives they did everything possible to atone), but for objectively different reasons than acknowledged by the work. The last part of UU was recently added explain that. Is this a widespread enough to count (there is a lot of valid but unrelated salt over her Face–Heel Turn in the first place that could be influencing this)? Should it be reworked to emphasized she's UU due to seemingly only regretting the consequences as opposed to her evildoing?
Also asked UU cleanup
. But any other feedback would be appreciated.
openNew troper, new page, problems
The new article VideoGame.Gacha World was created by a new troper. Aside from the usual problems with a poorly drafted article, I'm wondering if the description is plagiarized from anywhere. I'm not really interested in doing the research myself so I will hand it over to the troper body.
openEdit war
On Trivia.Casino, H Mackall restored an entry
for Adaptational Name Change that had previously been removed for not being trivia, and they claimed in their edit reason that its removal hadn't been explained, although it actually had
. I reverted it, since it's not trivia, and it's located on the main page, but then I realized after checking the history that HMackall actually added it themself in 2019
, and has restored it repeatedly since then.
openThe100 Moral Event Horizon Question Live Action TV
Copying this from the Moral Event Horizon cleanup thread to get more opinions on these entrys.
Found these entries on the Ymmv subpage for The 100. I’m putting this into a folder due to the length
- Moral Event Horizon:
- Clarke and Bellamy when they torture Lincoln which they did in order to find a cure for a poison that's killing Finn.
- Also Clarke killing that Grounder in Season 1 though justified by the fact she was trying to escape so that she can save Finn but it is the first time she straight up murders somebody as the first time she killed somebody it was a mercy kill and being emotionless when she gives him the "shh" gesture while he falls to the floor dying and later along with the others burning up 300 grounders to defend themselves.
- There is also when, along with Lexa, she doesn't inform everybody in the village that a missile is about to hit and of course when she irradiates Mount Weather by pulling a switch with Bellamy and kills everyone including the children and including the earlier mercy kill of Finn and the guilt of every thing she has done ends up leading to her decision to not return to Camp Jaha and live out into the woods.
- Finn caging up Grounder villagers and then slaughtering eighteen of them when they tried to escape. Subverted because it is implied that he was in a PTSD state when he started shooting and as noted he started shooting because one of them tried to escape but the second one was because he was attempting to attack Finn as a result of the first one's death and it causes mass panic that results in all them trying to escape or attack Finn and in his state he just kept shooting until Clarke arrives to snap him out of it and of course the reason he was on edge in the first place was because he was told that the village was holding Clarke captive by a grounder who wanted revenge on the village and to get Finn to stop torturing him. He ends up feeling guilty about this and it is part of the reason he turns himself into the Grounders who were ready to wipe out the Sky People because they wouldn't turn him in for what he did.
- Tsing was already straddling the line before, but she takes a flying leap over it when the President gets locked away. She stops playing nice and takes them one-by-one, killing them for bone marrow extraction.
- If Cage creating Reapers by injecting Grounders with a drug to make them murderous cannibals didn't push him over the line, then staging a coup so that he can forcibly remove the bone marrow from the teens definitely does.
- Tsing and Cage justify their actions as trying to find a cure for their people's illness and being on a deadline because of radiation leaks. But they are not really justified because they basically enslaved Grounders as Reapers. Killed their 100 captives brutally, just to speed up production of the cure. They had a method to cure the populace that would not kill the 100 but decided it would take too long. Deciding to kidnap more of them to literally butcher them for marrow for their own convenience. In fact another reason they where on a deadline was because their actions forced a Grounder/ 100 alliance and as noted by Kane, the Sky People would have volunteered if asked and they didn't ask just because of the possibility they would say no.
- Pike ordering (and helping carry out) the murder of 299 Trikru Grounders who were there to protect them in cold blood and in "Bitter Harvest", after being told that Lexa would not start a war over his massacre, he doesn't take the reprieve as the one-shot blessing he's been given, and moves right into deciding to take a Grounder village's land to use it for farm land. Then he sentences Kane to be executed because Kane attempted to kidnap him and turn him into the Grounders and he later executes Lincoln who stays behind after Kane and the others escape because Pike threatened to kill the other Grounders prisoners if one of them didn't surrender. Subverted when he later helps in the fight against A.L.I.E and his murder of the Grounders is partially justified by his bad experiences with the Ice Nation that made him distrustful of all Grounders and he believed that they were secretly planning to attack and as stated he sentenced Kane to be executed because he attempted to kidnap him and Lincoln was probably a show of force to show he means business though his killing of Lincoln is what leads to his death.
- Bellamy participating in the massacre of the 299 Trikru grounders sent to protect Arkadia and supporting Pike's anti grounder movement. It is eventually Inverted when he turns against Pike and eventually sees the errors in his choices even then his actions are some what justified by the fact that he wasn't in his right mind because of his grief over the deaths of many people and someone he cared about and his guilt for what he did with Clarke in Mount Weather when they killed the whole population and really not having too many positive experiences with the Grounders to begin with which includes the fact that they have killed several of his people and Lexa abandoning them at Mount Weather that lead to him and Clarke making that decision in the first place.
- Before this in Season 1, there is his attempt to kill Jaha and on the ground telling everyone they can do whatever they want and convincing them to take off their wristbands making the Ark think that they died from radiation and destroying Raven's radios which ends preventing them from stopping the killing of 300 people on the Ark to save life support and led to them shooting flares to try to contact the Ark and the flares end up destroying a village which ends up making the conflict with the grounders worse. Though these actions are justified by the fact he did these things for his sister Octavia to protect her from the Ark's harsh laws and protect himself from getting punished for what he did to Jaha. Also what he did to Jaha was part of a deal so he could get on the drop-ship with Octavia to either die with her so she won't die alone or to be their to protect her on the ground if it turned out to be survivable.
- Jaha not even hesitating to sacrifice one of his disciples to a hungry sea monster is viewed as such by Murphy and when you consider that awhile back he was willing to sacrifice himself so that his people could get to the earth and he also didn't enjoy enforcing the laws of the Ark and started going against them in the end.
- Then in Season 3 he becomes loyal to A.L.I.E and participates in torture and forcing and manipulating people into taking her chip and falling under her control but this is justified by the fact he is under her control too but he was the first one to take the chip and the one who found her in the first place and it is implied that he made some of the decisions on his own.
- A.L.I.E's was when she caused the nuclear strike that destroyed the Earth in the first place and in Season 3 when she mentally tortures Raven in submitting to her because before this she mostly got people to do what she wanted by talking to them through Jaha and getting them to voluntarily taking her chip, but after torturing Raven she generally just starts threatening and torturing people to get her way.
- Ontari was when she killed all the nightblood children in their sleep.
- Octavia in the Season 3 finale when she killed Pike because yes he did kill Lincoln but he did save her life and even then it was straight up cold blooded murder as he wasn't a threat anymore and Kane and the others probably could have still turned him over to the Grounders to make peace. Even then she just did it to make herself feel better and other people she has killed in the past have mostly been in self defense/defense of others and during war. It is also hinted that this may be a Start of Darkness for her in Season 4.
- Clarke in "Die All, Die Merrily," when she takes the bunker while the 12 clans are distracted by the conclave, moves Skaikru inside, and seals the door. In doing so, she leaves Octavia, Kane, Monty, Raven, Murphy, and a handful more of her own people to die. To top it all off, she had Bellamy drugged, abducted, and dragged inside the bunker without his knowledge before shutting it, because she wanted him to survive, despite knowing how he would react to Octavia being left behind.
- Octavia, in Season 5, for several reasons: first, she allows Cooper to experiment on Wonkru people to generate more mutated worms for biological warfare against Diyoza's criminal group in Eden. Then, as the strain of realizing she might never be truly free of the bunker wears on her, as well as the fact that fissures are forming within Wonkru threatening her command, in a last act of spite, and to regain control, she burns down the entire hydroponics section of the bunker even though Monty had proven it could be regenerated. Finally, the origin of the phrase "all of me for all of us" is shown in The Dark Year when she begins — albeit under great stress and after repeated attempts at verbal persuasion — to kill people to force the rest of Wonkru into cannibalism.
- Abby in Season 5 pushed Octavia into enforcing "full compliance", hinting that she needed to force Kane, in particular, to eat the "meat" that was being provided during the Dark Year. Her insistence on having Octavia shoulder that burden had lasting effects on her, pushing Octavia to become Blodreina over increasingly macabre death matches in the fighting pits.
- In Season 6, the leaders of Sanctum, Russell and Simone, jump well past the horizon when they take advantage of Clarke having been immobilized by one of the Children of Gabriel spies in order to implant a chip which completely overwrites her entire brain, in effect "killing" Clarke and replacing her with Josephine Lightbourne. It's especially hypocritical because even Russell objects to some of Josephine's ideas, primarly because she doesn't think consent needs to be obtained for her mad plans to breed more "royal bloods".
Considering that this show has Grey-and-Grey Morality and some of the entries here have fairly sympathetic reasons like being out of options, etc, should some of these entries be cut? Thanks.
Edited by spyland2openSpoiler Marked Late Arrival Spoiler? Western Animation
Are Late-Arrival Spoiler entries allowed to be spoiler marked? Because I just found one on Characters.Ninjago Ninja, and it seems a little weird to me (the marking, not the entry itself).
openATT Inconsistent Suspension Glitch
If I try to make the first reply to an ATT thread, I get a pop up saying that my permissions for this area have been suspended. However, if my reply is the second or later, then it goes through fine. I have to admit it's spooked me a few times before I realized the pattern and made me wonder if I did something wrong.
This has been happening for a while, but I figured it wasn't worth reporting before due to how uncommon my particular situation is (and, with it, how unlikely to happen to anyone else it is), but the more it happens, the more annoying it gets.
And yes, it even happens on threads I create myself. I tested it just now.
Edited by BaffleBlendopenedit war, self report
Recently deleted some examples from dramedy, including One Piece and Dragon Ball, however I realized when checking the history that I had already removed Dragon Ball previously. Also realised that those examples were added both times by quackytrope. So- my apologies for the edit war, I have pm'd quackytrope to discuss the example and I will be sure to watch more closely for edit wars in the future
Edited by Tremmor19openPossible Fandom Agenda-Based Edits? Live Action TV
I've been monitoring the Supernatural page for a while now to cut down on agenda-based editing in wake of the show's controversial ending. I know enough about it from osmosis to understand what the different fandom camps are, which generally fall into three camps: Destiel fans (Dean/Castiel shippers, the largest group), Wincest fans (Sam/Dean shippers, second most common group), and Bibros (platonic Sam+Dean, the audience to whom the show has officially markets itself, though the show's LGBT Fanbase and Yaoi Fangirls have famously disputed this), and how acrimonious things are that keeping an eye on that page is necessary.
Destiel and Wincest fans notoriously do not get along, and I've had to clean up vandalism related to that war in the past. Bibros, though they officially prefer the brothers' relationship platonic, often take the side of Wincest fans against Destiel fans because they share more in common. Bibros are characterized as not liking non-Sam or Dean characters in general, but their dislike for Castiel is less because of Die for Our Ship and more because they consider him a Spotlight-Stealing Squad who took attention away from Sam and made the show more about an expanded cast. Many saw this as a good thing (Castiel was meant to appear in only a few episodes, but the very positive reception from audiences and critics led to him becoming an Ascended Extra and eventually a Breakout Character, especially since the earlier seasons developed a Broken Base where one half of fans believed that the show's exclusive focus on the brothers resulted in a great deal of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character or Plot), but Bibros see him as the harbinger of They Changed It, Now It Sucks!.
Many of Lapistier's
edits on the Supernatural YMMV page and others are fine enough and stay nonpartisan, but other times it comes off as a Bibro Righting Great Wrongs or stealth complaining about fans who feel differently. I am not the only one who feels this way, am I?
openTroper with Indentation (and other) issues, continues to do so over the course of almost a year
I've noticed a troper by the name of Arachnos continues to break the rules written in Example Indentation in Trope Lists, along with others, since at least February this year.
Here are some of their past violations:
Characters.Hololive Japan Generation Five - Feb 25th
- Sad Clown: Has hints of this but more melancholic and reflective than outright depressed. In a very short video
she explains her motivations for why she's taken up the role of a circus performer.
- Polka: "Don't let people laugh at you. Make them laugh." Those were my father's words. He was a popular ringmaster in our hometown. I loved my father, I really did. That's why I wanted to be in the circus, too.
- This is also implied by the songs she tends to cover. While her original Hologram Circus is about her enthusiasm and love of entertaining others, her later covers tend to feature dark and depressing lyrics set to happy upbeat music. As an insightful YouTube commenter points out:
"1st song, original
- welcomes to the circus and dreams of making a spectacular show
2nd song, cover
- talks about how nobody loves her and how she doesn't love herself
3rd song, cover
- talks about how she smiles and sings through the pain
4th song, cover
- She snaps and is now crazy, doesn't care about what happens, she loves you
hmmm i'm seeing a pattern here"
Along with the standard 2nd-level bullet pitfall; as per Administrivia.Text Formatting Rules -> Quotes Formatting, quotes other than Page Quotes should not be enclosed in quotation marks.
Characters.Hololive English Generation One Myth - May 27th
- Irony: Even though she is a Grim Reaper, she tends to either A) be the first one to die when playing with others or B) almost never get a chance to be the "killer" in Asymmetric Multiplayer games. This happens so frequently that Gura lampshades this trend
during a group playthrough of Phasmophobia:
- Gura: It's kinda ironic how Calli always dies first, even though she's Death. [laughs]
- As an incarnation or deity of death that totes a massive scythe, many expected her to have a Bad Ass, dominating personality. She does come off that way in most of her raps, but that aside, she's more in the "lovable and kind-hearted dork trying and utterly failing to present herself as a cool edgy reaper" territory. Considering that she is a fan of gap moe, this is very likely intentional.
-
- Irony: Just like Calliope, she's one of the holoEN girls whose Eldritch Abomination persona would normally be associated with the darkest implications - Cosmic Horror, madness, the end of the world, and whatnot. You might expect her to be very chaotic or horror-focused, but, despite the occasional moment of casual creepiness or degeneracy, Ina is on the whole possibly the most wholesome, cute and calm member of the EN branch, with Token Human Amelia being arguably more eldritch than she is. It's been joked by her fanbase that Ina's streams tend to restore sanity as opposed to damaging it.
Along with the standard 2nd-level bullet pitfall; as per Sinkhole -> Chained sinkholes, internal links should not be placed right next to each other.
Characters.Hololive Haato Ch - Jul 15th
- Mind Rape: Threatened to pull one on Luna while losing a bowling game:
As per Administrivia.Text Formatting Rules -> Quotes Formatting, Article Quotes should not be enclosed in quotation marks or italicized. Also, the name of the speaker is missing.
WebAnimation.Hololive - Aug 23rd
- American Kirby Is Hardcore: The Japanese cast's characters are all a variation of many different motifs, most of them cute or beautiful. The first generation of English-speaking v-tubers? They all got an Eldritch Abomination motif. Mind you, they're still very cute.
- And the second generation of holoEN outright consists of divine avatars of concepts such as space, time, and nature.
I've fixed all these past entries, but these are only within the hololive namespace, so I have no idea what how many and what other violations they did in other works.
Their most recent ones in hololive are:
Characters.Hololive English Generation Two Council - Dec 2nd
- Irony: Despite being the embodiment of Chaos, she was appointed by the Gods to be The Leader of the Council. In other words, she is responsible for maintaining order among the five.
- Also, despite being an incarnation of Chaos, she is not significantly more chaotic than any of the other four Council members. Sometimes even less so. This leads to a fan theory that Baelz does not so much actively cause chaos as she does attract it, i.e. she is a Weirdness Magnet and her presence warps the other members into becoming chaotic.
Characters.Hololive Haato Ch - Dec 2nd
- Mind Rape: Threatened to pull one on Luna after being taunted by her while losing a bowling game.
- She attempts this again against 6th genner La+ Darkness with her rap dedicated to her
, which also contains the line "Your brain... Haachama-chama!" Unfortunately for Haachama, La+ proves to be a tough nut to crack.
- Sitcom Arch-Nemesis: Has this dynamic with Luna ever since the takoyaki incident.
- More recently, she has this kind of dynamic with 6th gen talent La+ Darkness, whom Haachama took a special interest in
(likely due in no small part to both of them having a chuunibyou aesthetic going on) and tried to "make into her subordinate" by means of a rap to assert her dominance
. However, La+ proved she's not one to be trifled with by responding with a rap of her own
, which proved impressive enough for Haachama to actually admit defeat
.
- More recently, she has this kind of dynamic with 6th gen talent La+ Darkness, whom Haachama took a special interest in
Along with the standard 2nd-level bullet pitfall; as per Examples Are Not Recent, examples that talk about the "recency" of something should always be avoided.
Characters.Hololive Japan Generation Six Holo X - Dec 3rd
- Know When to Fold 'Em: After Haachama challenges her to a rap battle, La+ retaliates with her own rap, defeating Haachama (by the latter's own admission). However, when chat challenges her to do a rap battle with Calliope Mori, the normally arrogant and confident La+ is quick to admit her inferiority in the face of Death itself.
As per Administrivia.Text Formatting Rules -> Quotes Formatting, Article Quotes should not be italicized. Also, the name of the speaker is missing.
I've already messaged them three times about Indentation, as well as once about Quote Formatting, directing them to & informing them about the points mentioned in the Administrivia pages, but I've gotten no response from them.
Given that there has been no improvement whatsoever for so long, it doesn't look like they will give a slightest care about these issues anytime soon unless something is done.
Edited by AsoktencheaopenEdit War Western Animation
Jumbo J 99 is doing an Edit War on What If…? (2021).
He added a really complaining entry of Took Bleak Stopped Caring to the ymmv (saying it now applied to the whole MCU). It was removed for being both a moment and the work itself ends pretty optimistically.
He then re-added it with a bunch of really reaching and sometimes incorrect versions of how things will in his opinion go
.
Like We have no clue if project insight will happen here and Carter could still stop it, We see in the finale that Tchalla and Quill are going to stop Ego, Loki is also defeated in the finale and a new avengers is formed who will probably deal with Malekith, Strange accepts his punishment and is even at peace, the zombie stuff is apparently going to be covered in another show, I have no idea where the nuclear war will destroy the earth comes from as that's not even in the episode and Killmonger is too stopped.
The show has been well received and from what I've seen loved by the fanbase for the dark moments so I don't think it's an example. Even ignoring that several of these entries are blatantly not true.
openRecreating character page for Yumi's Cells Webcomic
Edit: I'm looking for feedback on character images now.
I want to make sure it's okay to recreate Yumi's Cells, which was apparently cut because it didn't have content.
While I'm at it, I also have a few questions about how I should handle spoilers between the characters page and the main Yumi's Cells page. Before I edited the work page, it seemed to mostly spoiler out things regarding the breakup of the second boyfriend and the existence of the third boyfriend.
- If the entry is about the main character's romance, should I put it exclusively in the relevant boyfriend's folder (e.g. a Rejected Marriage Proposal)?
- Should I keep the second boyfriend's breakup spoilered on the character page, or would that be too self-fulfilling? How about non-breakup-related things like the bait-and-switch of the proposal that turned out to be just a regular gift... which turned out to be a wedding ring?
- Should I put a spoilers-off warning on the third boyfriend? I think he has enough non-spoilery tropes about his personality to not be an all-white folder, but the spoilers on the romantic tropes might defeat the purpose.
- The work page has quite a few entries with bullet points for multiple people. If the entries have spoilers for a character that would have a folder, should I move the character's bullet point to their folder? If the entry would lose most of its bullet points that way, should I rewrite it to be more general? (e.g. rewrite the Shirtless Scene entry to say all the boyfriends have such a scene at the high point in their relationships and move the specifics to their respective folders)
- On a different note, should I put a three-trope threshold on the Cell characters before splitting them off from the humans they belong to?
openEdit war
On 27th November
, Shiroyama added this.
- Some people have even considered nature itself and even THE PLANET EARTH to be Eldritch Abominations.
It's general example ("some people" practically means absolutely nothing), ZCE (how it would count as Eldritch Abominations?), and - to be blunt - make no sense. So I removed it about six hours later, pointed out in edit reason that "Some people" misuse tropes too, so don't mind them. (because I think citing "some people" is the worst issue of this entry, it might be simple ZCE if they state the source myth).
Today, they put it back with minor change
.
open Crowner Announcement.
The Undertale Cleanup Thread
has an active crowner on whether or not Characters.Deltarune Kris should have an Ambiguous Gender entry or not. Explanations in the crowner itself.
Please do not discuss the subject on the thread, as it has already been heavily discussed and reached no conclusion - thus the crowner.
This is an Announcement only. Do not reply to this post.
openTrying to Avoid an Edit War Videogame
Recently, I modified a couple of entries on Dragon Age – Anders, removing the The Extremist Was Right entry and reformatting the information and moving it to Well-Intentioned Extremist. Before I did this, I took it to the Is This An Example
thread, where I was mostly ignored despite posting several times. Now, I previously did the same thing for the same entry on the main page for TEWR after I got agreement from the same thread that it wasn't an example, so despite lack of replies, I thought I was okay.
Shortly after I did this, Asherinka reverted the entry back and edited it to have more neutral wording (or tried to at least). The topic for the Dragon Age fandom is major Flame Bait and Anders himself has a Broken Base, so I'm trying not to let this devolve into an argument over whether or not he was right.
My big hang up on TEWR vs WIE is that I believe they are mutually exclusive tropes. And, for Anders, I do not believe he meets the requirements for TEWR.
- The Extremist Was Right:
- Terrible as Anders' actions were, a lot of supplementary material suggests that escalating the mage/Templar conflict to open war was the right thing to do, since the status quo only weakened the mages' position. The events of Inquisition can further cement this idea; if Leliana is named Divine, one of her reforms to the Chantry is the dissolving of the Circle system, granting the mages their freedom and creating widespread mage acceptance, giving Anders (and the rebel mages who agreed with his points, if not his actions) everything he wanted. Even the endings that see the Circles rebuilt come with some major reformations.
- The flavor text of the Magehunter shield in Inquisition tells of a previous misuse of the Right of Annulment. In 3:09 Towers, twenty-five years after the Right was first granted, the Circle of Magi in Antiva City was annulled to cover up the fact that its Knight-Captain was a serial killer who murdered over a hundred mages out of pure bigotry. While the Seekers eventually hunted him down and punished him, they assisted the Templars in covering up the incident, leaving the rest of the Circles completely ignorant of the truth, and there is no mention of them punishing the Knight-Commander for Annulling a Circle under false pretenses. Given that background chatter in the second game reveals that Meredith had gone over Elthina's head and petitioned the Divine for the Right, it paints a very clear picture of what might have happened to the Gallows if Anders had not provoked Meredith into jumping the gun instead of waiting for the Divine's permission.
Hello83433: I'm a bit concerned about [this particular TEWR example] in general, because it relies a lot on player perception and it seems to be used as an Audience Reaction, because there's hardly anything in-universe that is justifying the actions taken. The trope itself says the people whom everyone thought were completely right and in-universe it's noted that many, including mages, denounce Anders' actions. The supporting material (i.e. comics and supplementary novels) also have that the character is dead, because some events that occur do not occur in a universe where he lives.
Overall, this seems more like someone trying to convince others that the actions were right, when they moreso fall under Your Terrorists Are Our Freedom Fighters (and he's already listed under). Thoughts?
Reply from Afterward: Sorry I haven't said this before, but I think there's enough negative reactions to Anders' actions in-universe that he doesn't qualify (and while the Mage situation in Dragon Age was already pretty bad before Anders blew up the Chantry, there's no real evidence that it got better, just that the conflict became open), although I'm not super familiar with the inner workings of the trope.
Hello83433: Reposting because I think it got lost in the page transition. After cutting Anders' example from The Extremist Was Right, it was added to his character page. The first bullet point text is exactly the same as TEWR, and the second point is diving deep into begging the question and slippery slope territory, but I wanted to bring the full example here again just in case.
[Example In Question]
Reply from nrjxll: Honestly, I think there's a seed of a valid example buried in there, in that Inquisition does pretty clearly show that Anders's broader goal of dragging these festering problems out in the open led to necessary reforms that probably weren't going to happen otherwise. What it doesn't validate is the method he did that by. (Just speaking personally, one of the few points I found myself majorly agreeing with Vivienne - who I rather disliked on the whole - on was that tying the cause of mage independence to a terrorist attack that killed hundreds of people was a huge PR self-own.)
BTW, the definition of The Extremist Was Right is distinctly not helpful here. I don't see anything about other characters in a story needing to say as much to qualify an example the way you originally cited, but the description's not all that long in general.
Hello83433: I was going off of Laconic and the first sentence of the description, although I agree it could be written clearer. The heavy disagreement on his methods is what puts him out of TEWR territory for me. Although, now that I'm looking at it, would it be a better fit for Well-Intentioned Extremist? Anders seems to fit under the first and/or third types (the problem is the means and/or consequences) just based on in-universe reactions to his "solution".
I don't want this OP to be too long, so just to sum up I don't believe the example fits The Extremist Was Right primarily due to in-universe backlash against Anders and his actions. I suppose moving it to YMMV might be an option, but to avoid an edit war I'm asking here to get a consensus one way or the other.
Edited by Hello83433openQuick apology about a dumb edit Literature
Hello! Apologies if this isn't the correct place to put this.
I just wanted to apologize real quick about a dumb series of edits I made on the new trope Tourist Bump. I had changed the Twilight example based on a previous wording, only to see too late that it already got reworded by someone else. It wasn't my intention to screw it up like this; I tried changing it back but I screwed it up even more. I'm sorry about this mess; please feel free to change it back. I could even try doing it myself if necessary.
openEdit warring on NightmareFuel page Web Original
On Nov 26th 2021 at 7:52:12 AM, ~TVTroperZelda made this edit on NightmareFuel.Hololive:
- The 6th generation of Hololive JP seems to be taking some inspiration from Myth and Council, in that all the members are based around one theme...but instead of being a Ragtag Bunch of Misfits or an Omniscient Council of Vagueness, Holo X is a secret society whose leader, La+ Darknesss, desires to Take Over the World. And if it weren’t for her being briefly captured and having her vast powers and intellect locked behind a system of Power Limiters, she very easily could.
On Nov 27th 2021 at 12:55:48 AM, I changed the last sentence to:
- [...], she potentially could.
with the Edit Reason being:
On Nov 28th 2021 at 3:37:42 AM, TV Troper Zelda changed the last sentence back to:
- [...], she very easily could.
without giving any reason for the revert/bringing it up for discussion.
I believe this is clear case of edit-warring, especially when the other troper justified their edit when they didn't.
Also, I call the last sentence out for Speculative Troping, since it's never actually shown in the work itself that "she very easily could Take Over the World", never mind that it blatantly ignores other factors in the same universe beside herself, and thus is not an accurate example at all.
Edited by AsoktencheaopenJackpot21 edit war in Ladybug's fridge page Western Animation
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fridge/MiraculousLadybug
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Tropers/Jackpot21
Yep.
Though this time, hopefully this is a more straightforward case that won't turn into a shouting match.
So yesterday Jackpot was on the Ladybug fridge page and removed a few entries, a concept I personally find rather poor in taste. For some of the removed bits Jackpot gives a reason.
...
Alya already established herself worthy of being a heroine nor has Cholé been contrasted with the other heroes. Marinette and Adrien have had several slip ups that go ignored like Juleka, but even then that isn’t enough to say she’s a terrible liar.
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TLDR on the first one, there are a series of fridge observations regarding Chloe B and her (fanbase aggravating) rise and fall in hero worth that compare and contrast and several of them, though not all of them, were removed by Jackpot. For example how Marinette's stress dreams in Sentibubbler where Chloe (and Cat Blanc) appeared could be because Marinette was more hurt by the Chloe fall than she lets on, or that she sees self-hypocrisy in giving Alya her miraculous full time (the latter part Jackpot keeps), and how one can contrast Alya specifically distracting Marinette's friends in another episode with a fake bad ankle, thus helping Marinette sneak off and drawing a comparison with how Chloe would act in a 'oh hey an Akuma, time to be Queen Bee' scenario in season 3 at several points. (This builds off several other fridges by several others, including myself, in contrasts with Chloe with things like her replacement's costume, the hero King Monkey and how his development contrasts with that of Queen Bee, and an entry of mine that Jackpot had deleted some time ago comparing Chloe's actions to that of the other temp heroes in one episode)
So, while I decided that my own entry on Juleka's noticeable secret identity slip ups was probably not worth fighting for, I restored most of what Jackpot had removed. The page is edited fairly often by myself and others, so these entries were all either by others or ideas I had submitted and had been edited by others into an new form over the course of other edits over the course of months (being tweaked with words and links by others to better the entry), noting to Jackpot where the Alya and Chloe comparison stuff had come from and a bit on how I don't see the problem in people having their own fridge conclusions you don't agree with.
Like people can think about stuff in the plot that isn't being said aloud that you don't necessarily agree with, and it can still be there.
So afterwards I have a bit of a spree of ideas and do a few more edit bits into Ladybug's fridge page, a few more ideas, a few expanding sentences for context, a few spelling corrections, some stuff like that.
Then comes the Edit War, where Jackpot removes a few of the same entries again. The removed entries the first and second time by Jackpot are.
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- Trixx is in the Miracle Box when Luka rushes to retrieve Sass. It’s likely that Alya occasionally returns her Kwami to the box to throw off Shadow Moth, as was done in episodes like Hack-San.
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Which I had expanded on after putting back with a point that she did just that to enhance the fridge argument.
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there are two options: either Marinette, who initially seemed not too taken aback by her betrayal, was far more hurt by it than she let on, or
being removed from
- As for why Chloé is in the dream, there are two options: either Marinette, who initially seemed not too taken aback by her betrayal, was far more hurt by it than she let on, or it’s likely Marinette recognizes her hypocrisy in letting Alya keep the Fox Miraculous even though Shadow Moth knows her true identity while she benched Chloé for the exact same reason.
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This entry below, which was one that, while I had created the original one, had been edited and improved by others since including Jackpot over the course of two months into the above form.
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- Gabriel was the one to figure out a creative plan for Optigami when Nathalie was convinced it was a failure after the straightforward spying mission went nowhere. Gabriel is a designer by trade after all; he's a bit more creative than her.
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And his other 'I had created the base idea that others had then expanded, tweaked, and improved on' entry.
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- This episode continues Season 4's subtle contrast between Chloé's worthiness and that of other temporary wielders. When Alya sees a brewing Akuma event in episode, and Marinette requests a distraction, she immediately fakes a bad ankle to let Marinette slip away and prety much ensure she'd have no chance to use Trixx this time. Last season, Chloé took multiple Akuma attacks as a moment to be Queen Bee first and foremost.
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This being Jackpot's argument for removing stuff I had put back.
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This page is for pointing out certain details that aren’t addressed in the series, not for people to make their own conclusions. The entries I removed were either speculative, redundant, or are your interpretations.
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Like...not entirely sure what the point of that is. Going 'this is a plausible reason why the Kwami was back in the box when he would otherwise not be', especially with an example of that happening in the series, feels like it covers that threshold.
Though given that four fridge entries, by multiple people adding and working on them, got removed twice in an editing sequence...more straightforward right?

Marco Polo 250 gave the following reason to an edit
: "Then why even bring it up you stupid motherfucker"
If the example argued with itself, they could have easily pointed out how the example contradicts itself without being so rude. And it's also not the first time they've made such a rude edit, calling one troper
a "fantard" and that "no one gives a fuck about [their] opinion" (for which they were sent a rudeness notifier).
Edited by Shadow8411