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openLockout or Alienating Premise?
YMMV.Captain America Brave New World.
- Continuity Lock-Out: Unlike some recent MCU films where the continuity lockout came from the sheer volume of stuff audiences were expected to know going in, a common critique of Brave New World is that it relies on its audience remembering specific events from three "lesser" MCU entries, namely a Disney+ exclusive mini-series from four years prior, a film from four years prior released during the pandemic, and another film from seventeen years prior, the latter two being not well received by MCU fans. Brave New World rapidly recaps all of the necessary information from those installments to get everyone up to speed, but it also clearly expects them to be fresh on the audience's mind.
I intend to delete as cleanup
of
YMMV.The Marvels 2023 said CL doesn't apply if it sufficiently explains past events to newcomers to follow, audiences merely assuming lockout is something else. I'm asking if Audience-Alienating Premise might apply as it contributed to work being a Box-Office Bomb.
Relating this was removed from YMMV.The Marvels 2023:
- Audience-Alienating Premise: One the biggest factors that led to the movie's colossal Box-Office Bomb is the fact that the premise of the story involves Carol teaming up with Monica and Kamala, two characters that have previously appeared in the Disney+ streams. The problem with this is the fact that the general audience have no idea who they are, the former only appearing in a supporting role in the previous movie & WandaVision and the latter only appearing in her own series which itself isn't well-received by the viewers. While the movie did give a summary regarding who they are, the perceived Continuity Lock-Out ended up leading to non-comic book fans being turned away from the cinemas' premiere.
Removal reason was "I highly doubt this was that big of a problem, given that a general moviegoer would either just see a bunch of new characters or would have likely seen both Wandavision and Ms. Marvel beforehand if they were hyped for this movie. This is like arguing that audiences would be confused on seeing Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in Age of Ultron, or Black Panther in Civil War, or for that matter The Falcon in The Winter Soldier." Valid or not?
But there's this under AudienceAlienatingPremise.Film:
- This was a major reason why Thunderbolts* (2025) became an Acclaimed Flop. It sold itself on a unification of various villains from prior Marvel Cinematic Universe projects—which, due to the MCU's propensity towards killing off its villains, left it with a collection of second-string characters from divisive or less-acclaimed projects, with Black Widow (2021) and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier providing the lion's share. This put it in a weird position of simultaneously dealing with Continuity Lock-Out and not really benefiting from star power, and it bearing little resemblance to the most popular runs of the comic Thunderbolts didn't give it much of a draw with the core fanbase, either. The result was a lukewarm-at-best runup to release, and while the film tended to pleasantly surprise those who did see it, it nonetheless lost quite a bit of money, with even Kevin Feige admitting that the film was probably doomed from the get-go.
Since asking about other possible AAP examples, asking about this as well. And if valid, would disinterest/unfamiliarity with prior works be grounds for applying AAP to the others?
resolved Do moments from trailers/advertising count as shocking moments?
On the Shocking Moments page and various YMMV pages, there are numerous examples for Shocking Moments related to moments from the marketing / trailers (e.g., the reveal of an Unexpected Character or plot beat that took fans off guard), but on the former page itself, it says that:
Keep in mind that meta examples aren't allowed in moments pages. Moments are for things that happen within a work. Things pertaining to the creators, the work's development or the work's critical and commercial reception, while you may think are shocking and we might agree, are outside the scope of this audience reaction. [sic]
So my question is, do moments from trailers/advertising fall into the "within a work" status or are they considered meta examples, since they're from the work's marketing rather than within the actual work itself?
Edited by Tylerbear12openFanfic Rec pages formatting Literature
Is there a consensus on how to format a Fanfic Rec page besides the basics? LunaSlashSea has added a lot of three or even six full paragraph spaces to fic rec pages that aren't used on other pages, as well as divider lines (----) between every fic. It looks fine on the page itself but when going into the editor it's kinda messy, mainly for the big gaps.
FanficRecs.Hades and FanficRecs.Hadestown have those attributes, while FanficRecs.Slay The Princess and FanficRecs.Doki Doki Literature Club don't, for comparison.
Edited by lalalei2001openHate Sink misuse/edit war.
Characters.Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Earth Alliance
- Hate Sink: Inverted, she wasn't originally meant or created to be hated, but considering his her time in SEED, he she became like that, How?; Firstly, she's intolerable, a jerk, arrogant, selfish, cheated on boyfriend Sai, and manipulated Kira into seducing him into having sex with her against his will, and tried to shoot Dearka while he was imprisoned, even if she had any redeeming qualities, she wouldn't have been able to save from her death at the hands of Rau. Even her Ocean Dub Actor hate her and when flay died, she feels happy.
New troper Neo Ghidorah 64 added this. I deleted as she wasn't ment to be such given she eventually gets remorse for it and her fate is played tragically, and PM'd them about it. They then added it back, the only notable change is adding the first sentence which is misuse of inversion. (Also, it was consensual even if he exploited Kira traumatized state of mind. Immoral, but exaggerating her heinousness.)
Flay is a textbook Jerks Are Worse Than Villains, but not a deliberate HS. Entry is just listing negative traits and reactions, ignoring mitigating context.
This is practically the only page and item they've edited, so bringing to attention.
Edited by Ferot_DreadnaughtopenFunny moments for ads and bumps
So, I noticed that Paramount+ has a funny moments page for it's ad campaign. Now, I was going to say that it should probably be moved to a page for the ad campaign itself, but then I remembered that Cartoon Network also has one for the various bumpers that they've had over the years.
I know that Creator pages generally aren't supposed to have moments pages, but is there an exception for things like this?
openHow should I go about searching for information on this wiki? Web Original
I know this sounds like the dumbest question in the world, but I wouldn't ask it if I didn't feel like I was missing something. The search function on the site itself (I don't use mobile so I don't know if it's different there) only goes 10 pages of 10 links per search, which is obviously inadequate for deep diving. I've found a way to circumvent it by putting -[insert page I've already seen here] in my search, rinse and repeat as I go along, filtering out more and more stuff to prolong my search as much as I can. However, I can't help but think this is extremely inefficient in a way that might be obvious to everyone except me. So is there something I'm missing here? I am aware I could just do exactly what I'm doing in Google search or something, but I just want to make sure if there is an in-site solution to my problem?
openWeird additions to national Useful Notes pages
On 22nd April and later 5th May, following edits from January that introduced write-ups about current cabinets (yes, I know, old news), troper The Blitzerz 97 did an entire string of edits in Useful Notes pages for a long list of nations. His edits were of the same pattern: adding party affiliation of residing presidents/prime ministers (and adding those in the first place, if they were missing) and potential government. Which is weird, but mostly harmless by itself... except handful of those countries had elections campaigns going around that time, and the edits blatantly mislabeled said affiliations, especially when having to either claim someone is "independent" or any kind of left-leaning party (which many were instantly labelled commie and of course also painted red, even if that's not the party's color [which seems to be the "key"]).
I'm questioning it on two grounds: the pointlessness of such affiliations in the first place and, more importantly, how there is a clear pattern of mislabeling. Won't call it an agenda, it's too low key for that, but it's rather obvious where the political sympathies of the troper lay. That without mentioning the obvious - many of those edits are simply factually wrong.
Examples:
This really goes on and on. There were numerous edits in this vein, see more hereresolved Troper with character wonks Anime
cotton-cloud22 appears to have this wonk regarding Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba of defending Zenitsu and bashing Obanai.
- Added a Draco in Leather Pants entry
for Obanai that, while not in itself wrong, used all caps to call him “WORSE” than Zenitsu AND a Misaimed Fandom entry complaining about the fandom not realizing Obanai is worse than Zenitsu. I have since moved the entry to Ron the Death Eater to focus more on Zenitsu’s demonization in the fandom and removed mentions of Obanai.
- This Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry on Obanai
isn’t too bad in isolation, but worth mentioning for their wonk against him and how it seems to take his gags too seriously.
- Speaking of taking gags too seriously, after I removed a Karmic Overkill entry for Yoshiteru (Zenitsu’s descendant) that bashed how Obanai’s reincarnation treated him since I felt it was misuse as a gag moment, they re-added it
.
- Complainy ship-to-ship combat entries
(I’ve since reworded them to sound more neutral).
- All their edits on the Fandom-Enraging misconception
subpage feel less like straightforward examples and more of rants against people who dislike Zenitsu. Also includes another all caps claiming Obanai is “WORSE” regarding jealousy which just feels like a shoehorn. (On a side note I think the Fandom-Enraging Misconception subpage for Demon Slayer as a whole needs a clean-up, it’s pretty messy).
resolved Troper with persistent complaining problems, possible wonk(s)
Sponge Bat 1 has been, over a long period of time, adding numerous entries to pages that contain complaining, sometimes with rude edit reasons, and also appears to have a weird wonk over Glitch Productions (which they clearly seem to despise) and Helluva Boss (ditto). Some examples:
- Here
they added complaining about Knights of Guinevere, alleging that the show was made out of spite for Disney's mistreatment of The Owl House, along with further complaining about other shows they deemed to have been treated worse by Disney.
- Here
they used a really aggressive edit reason to complain about the Helluva Boss fandom.
- Here
they added a Designated Hero entry for Helluva Boss character Stolas with similar wording to the above edit reason.
- Another rude edit reason
related to Stolas
- Here
they added a complain-y entry (granted, it's Darth, but still) alleging that Windows 11 is incapable of running games that use Unreal Engine 4. A previous ATT I started on the matter
, along with independent research, additionally could not verify the claim.
- Complaining general example
about Windows computers
- This edit
, while not very complain-y in and of itself, continues the Glitch and Helluva wonk by adding a negative Genre Turning Point example alleging both were responsible for indie animation going upmarket and shutting out lower-budget projects.
- This edit
complains about the AI opponents and difficulty in Diddy Kong Racing
- This edit
complains about the underlying message of Steven Universe, with an edit reason enforcing as such
- This edit
baselessly alleges, on the WMG page for The Amazing Digital Circus, that the series was stealth insulting the entire animation industry
And so on. Note that most of these edits were on page 1.
Now, I know Sponge Bat 1 has been an active participant in cleanup threads, and has done some good work. However, I'm concerned about the propensity with which this is happening. I have not sent any complaining notifiers, but I did send a "general example" notifier for the The Alleged Computer example that I never got a response on (along with a PM on the Unreal claims I also got no response on), so I don't think a notifier would be listened to anyway.
Edited by themayorofsimpletonopenCut subpage for a cutlisted page that was never cut to begin with
Today, I discovered that Meg and Dia have a page here, albeit not in the best state when I initially came across it. I also noticed that there was no YMMV page, even if the popularity of "Monster" should signify otherwise. I soon found out that the YMMV page was cut because the page itself was to be cutlisted... and it hasn't been cut?
On the actual Cut List, or at least the extent that I saw, the Meg and Dia page is nowhere to be seen. I checked the Wayback Machine to see if this event was relatively recent, but it actually happened sometime in 2024, based on the YMMV page being present in March of that year but gone in December. I'm guessing the page was still allowed to remain up as it technically met the minimum three tropes requirement in spite of its quality. I contextualized a few entries on the main pages and added more tropes (mainly via crosswicking from other pages) to further prevent the page from being a stub - it's better than almost nothing, at least.
Since I doubt the main Meg and Dia page is on the Cut List anymore, is it okay to restore the YMMV page, given that the page it was supposed to be removed alongside was never cut in the first place (a few entries would need context, but I'll probably contextualize them if the page is brought back)?
resolved Concerning lewdness issues in Trope Pantheons forum
The user M1gami Tensei has posted a draft profile for the character Yuzuki from Call Girl in Another World, which we're getting concerned is toeing the line into fetishism. Their third draft of them
has a full 30 paragraphs (which isn't neccesarily a bad thing, but in this case keep in mind most profiles have just around 10-20), many of which describe the character in question prostituting themselves to other deities or other deities attempting to do "stuff" I'd rather not describe here to her, often in eerily descriptive writing. It was even worse in the first and
second drafts
, which notably feature Melkor getting into very uncomfortable and OOC situations with her and outright stating that Frollo "wanted to suck on her titties", though those two issues were removed in the later drafts after pushback from other members of the thread.
From what I've heard, stuff like this does happen in Yuzuki's Manga from time to time, but I find that weak justification to go all in against the "no lewdness" rule. It doesn't help the character herself looks uncomfortably young. While much of the excessive stuff described here was cut out in the most recent draft posted today
, I find the fact that it was written at all and it took us 3 tries to convince him to cut it out very concerning, so I'm making this ATT to see if further action is needed against this user.
openUnilateral Quote Change
Under NightmareFuel.Warhammer 40000, Lightbearer77 changed the page quote from this:
Have we exhausted all possible ways to divine the future? How many scribes must toil to scratch their visions onto ancient parchments so that we might catch a glimpse of hope? Or are we to suffer only the pangs of despair as yet more horror is let loose on our dreams? Or does the seeking itself give birth to more insanity than man can cope?
The Dark Future Beckons!
Fear the unknown!
To this:
My impression is replacing page quotes requires approval, correct or not?
resolved Commented-out image note
If I'm making an Image Pickin' thread for a TLP draft, can I just add the commented-out "Page image selected by IP thread" to the draft myself, or does a mod need to add it?
I've already hollered for a mod to lock the thread after an image was agreed on (here
, for reference), but I'm unsure if there was anything else I should've done first.
resolved Image Pickin' dispute
So this issue occurred regarding the page Characters.Our Avatars Are Posting On A Forum Thread Deadly Espresso.
The page in question is a personal one for me, given that it's about avatars I use on TV Tropes' "Our Avatars Are Posting On A Forum Thread" roleplay. There's been a recent dispute regarding the way images were used on the thread, with Animuacid thinking some were of bad quality or were not useful for the article. However, rather than Animuacid personally suggesting me to clean up the article for images that weren't useful, they instead took it to the Image Pickin' threads and made other users suggest some of the images be taken down without my consent. As expected for someone who had made my Characters page into a personal project of mine, I got fed up like someone finally being to clean up their damn room and took cleaning up the page into my own hands, because I thought if I want something about my own content being done right, I better do it myself. However, the Image Pickin' thread wasn't closed after my attempt at cleanup, and even after notifying Animuacid about the cleanup, they haven't closed the Image Pickin' thread.
Was Animuacid's approach to getting my page cleaned up improper and should've just been a private talk with me, or am I just being unnecessarily bitchy about someone making unwanted modifications to an article that's become a passion project of mine? Any sort of compromise to get the page in better shape would be ideal.
openMisblamed (Charlie Kirk)
In regards to this entry for South Park S27E2 "Got a Nut"
- Mis-blamed: Following Charlie Kirk's assassination that occurred a month after this episode's release, die-hard fans of Kirk have blamed Matt and Trey for supposedly inciting his death despite the episode never once advocating even a hint of violence against Kirk himself in spite of all their mockery of him.
Now, it was put back in
after initially being removed since, unlike Harsher in Hindsight, Misblamed isn't on No Recent Examples, Please!. That's not what I take issue with. My issue is if this is actually valid usage of the trope at all. From what I gathered, Mis-blamed is specifically for creators being blamed about something for the work itself. Not for being blamed for real life events.
openSelf-Fullfilling Spoiler Character Pages?
This might be a discussion for Wiki Talk, but do we have a Spoiler Policy for character pages that are inherently a Self-Fulfilling Spoiler by their very existence on the page?
For example, Poker Face has Poker Face: Culprits and Victims, which obviously spoilers the victims and culprits. But as an episodic Reverse Whodunnit I didn't think it was that big a deal.
But then I recently found Characters.Only Murders In The Building Victims And Killers was made in between seasons and this is a bad idea. The series is five seasons long at the moment, and the mere placement of long-running characters on the page are huge spoilers.
In both these places, there are places for these characters to go. Their absence from the logical places mean that if you're starting Only Murders and you go to the Characters/ page at all, you will be spoiled on several characters' deaths that won't happen for years.
The pages aren't so long that we need to cut these characters out of them, and even for the episodic works I find it a lot easier to have all the characters of the week in the same place, including the victims/villains.
Edited by Larkmarnresolved Edit war on the Tear Jerker Kirby and the Forgotten Land page Videogame
Troper Back Set 1 added this entry
to the game's Tear Jerker page on April 11th, 2022:
When Elfilin is kidnapped, he actually calls out Kirby's name (or rather, his Japanese name).
On May 5th, 2022, I altered it to not only correct a grammatical error but also removed the part in brackets - listed above in italics - with the edit summary: "It's literally just the name "Kirby" pronounced as you would in Japanese. It's still Kirby at the end of the day, through and through." The only reason it's said like you would say it in Japanese is because Elfilin's voice actress is Japanese herself and the game was developed in Japan.
And then on March 19th, 2023, BackSet1 edit warred by readding the exact previously removed information in a different form
with the summary: "Just kind of felt this was worth noting."
Personally, I'm in favour of altering the "calls out his name in Japanese" bit to what I did back in May 2022, not only for the reasons I specified over three years ago, but also because Kirby's name is the exact same in Japanese as it is in English. The only differences are how it's often pronounced in Japanese and how it's often written in Japanese. But since I already removed said information the first time it came up, if I were to do it again, I myself would also be in edit war territory and could risk a suspension. As for notifiers, I couldn't find a single one that best fits the situation so I decided to bring up the issue here. Other than that, any advice as to what should be done here?
P.S. As for why I'm only now reporting this over two years later...I just noticed it today and, after noticing it, thought I should bring some attention to this sooner rather than later.
resolved Low quality edits - formatting & English
I guess I'll be the rat and I hate to do this (since I share the struggle), but it's just tiresome at this point.
Troper kruczak has zero regard for the English grammar and spelling. For months now, I've been carefully cleaning up his mess whenever I've stumbled into it, especially in works from the Polish Media index (since that's where we are both usually active, for obvious reasons). But after nearly two years of this, I'm absolutely done.
This isn't even that he's making mistakes. It's the scale and level of them, where he can't even be bothered to first check in a preview mode if his entries display properly (or notice there are red links or the formatting is off after posting). So "naturally" stuff like doing the spellcheck or fixing the grammar is off the menu. And it's almost always a one-and-done type of deal, with no attempt to fix things later, revisit or anything like that.
I get it with some of his mistakes. Polish doesn't have articles of any kind, so it's pure abstraction trying to grasp the English ones. But for Christ's sake, we reached the technological point where the browser itself is going to pick up half of the slack by itself, highlighting mistakes, and there are dozens upon dozens of grammar autocorrect tools readily available (guilty as charged for always double-checking with those and I'm still unsure most of the time). There is literally no excuse to keep making the same basic mistakes that a mid-schooler would know better than to make.
So pretty please, do something with this guy, for I'm done being his editor or covering for him.
A sample of his most recent edits, but they are all
like this:
(No, I can't PM here, I'm banned from using PMs, someone else will have to do that)
Edited by TropiarzopenTheHero being dewicked everywhere
On Acceptable Feminine Goals and Traits, user ~SimonTrope removed a wick to The Hero in an example/explanation, saying that the trope is being dewicked
.
I put it back
because in the header on the cleanup thread, it says
" While The Hero no longer allows examples itself, references to the term in the text of other examples are fine." (my emphasis). The page has—had—The Hero as a reference to the term in a wick.
It's been removed again
by SimonTrope who stated that "According to cleanup thread, The Hero is now a category of tropes, rather than a trope itself. Thus, the trope is being dewicked." A quick check of the edit history shows they're dewicking it across any page it's on
, regardles of if it's just a reference or not.
If I put it back without consult, I'm causing an Edit War. The thread itself says in multiple places that it can be used and wicked in examples
, just not as an example.
Here's the example in question before any edits were made:
- Men Act, Women Are: Men take active roles in the story, and are defined by their achievements and character. Women are passive, and defined by passive things like how they look, or their sexual history, or relationships to men, or status as mothers, not by achievements. (Unless those "achievements" are something related, like being the World's Most Beautiful Woman, being a virgin, or somehow being Not Like Other Girls, or being the mother of The Hero.)

Recently, a newer troper named Seport07
removed anything pertaining to All the Other Reindeer, the trope itself and anything that may allude to it, from Yuuki's folder in the Sword Art Online Major Characters page
, and Sinon's Character page
, under the reasoning that nothing in the story states or implies that they were isolated.
Me, having engaged with both the anime and light novels and knowing that they were in fact isolated during their Dark And Troubled Pasts, re-added the entries explaining this. However, today they re-removed the entries on Yuuki's folder
, and Sinon's page
without discussion under the claim of having re-watched the anime and seeing no evidence of such for either character.
Can I ask that this is sorted out soon?
Edited by AnimeGamer