Have a question about how the TVTropes wiki works? No one knows this community better than the people in it, so ask away! Ask the Tropers is the page you come to when you have a question burning in your brain and the support pages didn't help.
It's not for everything, though. For a list of all the resources for your questions, click here. You can also go to this Directory thread
for ongoing cleanup projects.
Ask the Tropers is for:
- General questions about the wiki, how it works, and how to do things.
- Reports of problems with wiki articles, or requests for help with wiki articles.
- Reports of misbehavior or abuse by other tropers.
Ask the Tropers is not for:
- Help identifying a trope. See TropeFinder.
- Help identifying a work. See MediaFinder.
- Asking if a trope example is valid. See the Trope Talk forum.
- Proposing new tropes. See TropeLaunchPad.
- Making bug reports. See QueryBugs.
- Asking for new wiki features. See QueryWishlist.
- Chatting with other tropers. See our forums.
- Reporting problems with advertisements. See this forum topic.
- Reporting issues on the forums. Send a Holler instead.
Ask the Tropers:
resolved Auto Erotic Troping: Example Web Original
Recently stumbled upon this page which was blatantly and unashamedly made by the author in question, and it was recommended that I raise the issue here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/DarkFlameWolf
Is there any way we can tidy this up, or least make it a bit less...self-congratulatory? They've even included two completely unnecessary 'accomplishments' folders, and the entire article just reads like self-promotion. Someone has already deleted all the links to their social media pages, but it's still a very unprofessional article which I think deviates just a little too far from community standards.
openWMG Entry regarding women
I was browsing the WMG page for Mobile Suit Gundam 00 and saw this
Spelling errors aside, does this read to anyone else that whoever added this is uh....projecting somewhat? It does read like an attack driven from personal bias. Then again, I'm autistic, maybe it's just me being sensitive. I apologize if this is a waste of time.
openAbsurdly gushy self-promotion creator page
Was alerted to this by a misplaced Content Policy thread.
Dark Flame Wolf seems to have been made by the fanfic writer and game modder it's about, and it's a mess.
I'm going to go ahead and cut the YMMV page since the only example is misuse, but what about the rest?
Edited by StarSwordopenWhich Page Should Be Linked To?
Celebrity Power Couple had the following example (I'm showing the namespace of the work because it's relevant. I also shortened the example text since the example content itself isn't that relevant):
- ComicBook.Batman Grant Morrison: Billionaire industrialist, philanthropist, and socialite Bruce Wayne...
Gate Star X changed it to:
- ComicBook.Batman: In ComicBook.Batman Grant Morrison, Bruce Wayne, the billionaire industrialist, philanthropist, and socialite....
I was under the impression that if the more specific work page is available, you use that as the main example link. You only use the main page to group together multiple examples from different works in the series or if the specific comic/work doesn't have a page on the site. So the original was fine and the change is unnecessary. But Gate Star X told me they've seen the second version done around the wiki and are just following suit. Is there any clear policy on this someone can point us to?
Edited by amathieu13resolved Misuse of Archive namespace.
Today, miwaco has created Archive.Kaiserreich Legacy Of The Weltkrieg, which is associated with VideoGame.Kaiserreich Legacy Of The Weltkrieg. The edit reasons and the page itself claim that it's there to "hold the various tropes on Kaiserreich that are no longer true in the current versions of the mod", which is not what the Archive/ namespace is for. It should be for stuff that mods create never to be edited again.
This issue reminds me of a recent ATT
that reported another page created in Archive/.
openReplacement Aesop items?
Clueless Aesop was cut, so I ask if these parts/examples can be moved elsewhere.
"A Fantastic Aesop or Space Whale Aesop can attempt to teach a lesson through allegory, only to introduce issues that undercut the applicability (e.g., "don't judge people by their race" in a show with Always Chaotic Evil races)." I believe this can be moved to Broken Aesop, correct?
* This is why the "Fighting is wrong!" aesop that 4kids forced upon Pokémon: The First Movie fell flat, since this is a series where everything is resolved by way of Pokémon battle. The Japanese version had a completely different aesop: the circumstances of one's birth don't make them any more or less important than someone else. The irony is that the censored version was far closer to Shudo's intended portrayal which was scrapped in favor of the version the finalized Japanese version used. The dub of Mewtwo Strikes Back—Evolution is Truer to the Text and follows the Japanese version's Aesop.
- The "2014 Equestria Girls Holiday Special" tackles the subject of cyber-bullying showing it has serious, lasting consequences. This is undermined by said consequences becoming an Informed Attribute as ultimately everything gets Easily Forgiven par for the series, a Happy Ending par for the genre, and goes without consequence or mention outside the issue par for the comics. It also had little to do with the holidays. The one argument against Broken Aesop is it does have stated but Informed Attribute consequences. Is it Broken if at odds with the feel of the ending as opposed to objective facts of it, or is it being at odds with what's objectively shown enough to count?
- The "Hydra Cap" storyline in Secret Empire, in which Captain America is revealed to be a secret fascist, was meant to show how even good people can be seduced by hate. But the whole thing was the result of a Cosmic Retcon by the villain as opposed to anything pertaining to Captain America, who was created by two Jewish men to promote their anti-Nazi views. The vagueness of the book on what Hydra actually believes is nullified by the extensive Putting on the Reich imagery. Many other plot details (like having Scarlet Witch, a Romani, join the fascists) and the accidental white supremacist imagery created by having Fash-Cap wielding Mjolnir (Thor's Hammer being a symbol used by many real-world hate groups), combine to show the setting wasn't suitable and the writers too clueless about the subject to handle it tactfully much less intelligently enough to make a valid point. Is it being revealed to be caused by Cosmic Retcon subverting the original intent Broken Aesop or Lost Aesop?
- My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic:
- "Over a Barrel":
- In-universe. Pinkie Pie decides to sing a song about sharing in order to get the bison and the cowponies to get along and agree. They do agree... on this being the worst performance they'd ever seen. Brought up again when the bison are about to call off the attack, but Pinkie Pie celebrates by singing another verse, enraging them and causing them to attack anyway.
- "Feeling Pinkie Keen": Lauren Faust has spoken about regretting the way the episode was handled. The intended aesop was "you should be open to different ideas and ways of perceiving the world, even if you don't particularly understand them." It unintentionally came off as "Atheists/scientists/skeptics are jerks and are demonstrably wrong." This could more or less be a realistic scenario in the sense of how science and logic aren't always the best ways to come up with an answer, but considering it's being applied in a show that regularly uses magic and spells to do a multitude of everyday tasks, it seemed like splitting hairs.
- "A Hearth's Warming Tail" is Yet Another Christmas Carol that, due to Never Say "Die", changes the consequences of the Scrooge-expy from causing death and dying unloved to Wendigos causing Endless Winter. Besides being an unrealistic consequence, it dilutes the True Meaning of Christmas Aesop since its importance is shown less as a question of morals and self-destruction but instead as a necessary ritual to prevent The End of the World as We Know It.
- "Fame and Misfortune" has the Mane 6 publish their friendship journal, which develops a Misaimed Fandom who make their lives miserable. The episode was intended as a Take That! towards invokeda certain part of the show's Periphery Demographic, but the difference between what the writer was meant to criticize (real people complaining about fictional characters who cannot be directly affected by their words) and what's portrayed in the show (characters harassing other characters who are just as real as they are) keeps the message from working perfectly. Add scenes where obvious strawmen complain about things like Twilight Sparkle becoming a princess and Fluttershy having Aesop Amnesia, things which are perfectly reasonable complaints about a fictional series but only become wrong when aimed at real people (in other words, a completely different scenario), and the Aesop turns from "don't be part of the Fan Dumb" to "having any criticism or disagreement about the show is wrong". The writer M.A. Larson considers this episode an Old Shame, to the point he not only leaves it off his filmography but went so far as to ask fans of the episode to not praise him for writing it, but Executive Meddling kept him from addressing the flaws.
- "Surf and/or Turf" has an allegory for divorce/separation; Terramar's father returning to being a hippogriff on Mount Aris and mother remain a seapony underwater in Seaquestria with Terramar torn between choosing with whom and which lifestyle to live and learning they'd both still love him despite his choice. But the show's kid-friendly nature meant downplaying the seriousness (the parents remain on good terms, Terramar choosing to live with both as they're within walking distance and he can magically change between hippogriff/seapony on a whim) such it never addresses the consequences one in this situation realistically would have to deal with.
- "Over a Barrel":
- OK K.O.! Let's Be Heroes: "Let's Not Be Skeletons" tries to have an anti-gun aesop, except: one, the show takes place in a universe where many characters have natural powers which are often equivalent in their danger to a gun, including characters who are explicitly villainous, meaning having a gun for protection makes even more sense in their world; and two, the gun analog doesn't actually kill or even harm in any way except turning people into living skeletons, making it more a nuisance than an actual threat. Not helping is that whenever a character brings up a good argument in favor of the controlers, it just gets ignored.
- A case of this due to Values Dissonance caused the Peppa Pig episode "Mister Skinnylegs" to be stricken from Australian airwaves. The plot of the episode is that spiders shouldn't be considered scary and are okay to have in the house. While that works fine in the show's native Britain and in North America, it's unacceptable in Australia because the country is loaded with venomous spiders, and actually includes some of the most dangerous spiders in the world.note To put this in perspective, a short list of "dangerous Australian spiders" would include the ubiquitous Red-Back Spider (a Black Widow with anger management issues), the White-Tailed Spider (highly venomous, and suspected of being the infamous "necrotizing spider", a spider whose bite causes your flesh to start rotting away whilst you're still alive) and the Sydney Funnelweb (a highly aggressive pseudo-tarantula known to have the most powerful venom in the world). Understandably, Australians don't particularly want small children to think it's okay to play with these things. Just Values Dissonance? Anything else?
The Aesop cleanup thread has been inactive for months so asking here first.
openCombining Character Sheets?
Hello. I made this ATT entry and no one answered. I think I understand why, because my description was way too vague without any proofs to make you guys see what I'm actually proposing.
(That thing has been locked)
So, after a discussion with another troper who also have been editing MOBA character pages, he gave me some input, I worked on some Sandbox pages for the months to come. And I'd like to re-open this discussion.
Proposal: I want to combine the character sheets of Honor of Kings and Arena of Valor
Reasons
- Honor of Kings received a global release.
- Both Honor of Kings and Arena of Valor are created by both Tencent Games and TiMi.
- There has been an update in lore that the world both games took place have been reimagined as 'neighboring regions' (Honor of Kings' world is called Primaela, whereas Arena of Valor's world is called Athanor)
- Both Honor of Kings and Arena of Valor have lent their characters to each other. So we can see some HOK characters being playable in AOV and vice versa. So we now have characters overlapping with each other.
- A lot of characters of Arena of Valor have their moveset taken from Honor of Kings with some small tweaks, creating 'counterparts' between two games without too much of being expies.
Here are the Sandbox pages:
I will still continue to work on these Sandboxes for other things, like making each folders more complete and of course, the GRAMMAR (Yes, once all folders are filled, I will run through the grammar check to all pages myself). But one vital question remains...
Is this an okay thing in TV Tropes? I'd like to know so I don't end up making all future works end up for nothing. (If this is not okay, then I will just share what I worked on to the default pages and modify appropriately, even if there will be similar entries.)
Thank you!
Edited by ChrisXopenCreator's Pet misuse/complaining? Print Comic
I was looking at the CreatorsPet.Marvel Universe page, and I noticed a lengthy entry regarding multiple characters from Avengers Arena and Avengers Undercover — namely the Braddock Academy kids (mostly Apex and Anachronism), Cammi, and Arcade. Judging by a previous example removal on the page, I'm not sure if the examples qualify for the trope, and indeed at least some of it seems like complaining; on the other hand, bias on my part (let's just say I loathed Arena and Undercover in part because of some of the reasons listed in the example) is making me second-guess removing it. So I figured it'd probably better if I got a more neutral party to clarify whether or not it qualifies as misuse/complaining, because I don't think I can trust myself to make that decision.
openPermission to re-remove
A troper
was suspended over unjust deletions/rude edit reasons and their deletions reversed. I feel some of those deletions were valid as misuse.
Characters.Sonic The Hedgehog Modern Era Antagonists 1 Mainline Games:
- Asshole Victim: His mental state and eventual second defeat in Shadow Generations is rather poignant and even pitiful. But given what he did in his debut game, he deserved every moment of it. Even if Shadow doesn't know Mephiles anymore, he concludes just from the fact that the first thing Mephiles did was try to kill him upon their meeting that a creature like him cannot be allowed to exist, for the sake of the world Maria loved. They we’re trying to kill Shadow who retaliated in self-defense, so fails the "Victim" criteria.
- Hate Sink: Mephiles has absolutely zero redeeming qualities, and in his debut game he damn well earned his place among the fanbase as the single most evil villain in the whole franchise, because he managed to do the one thing none of the others (outside of maybe Surge from the IDW Comics) have managed: he killed Sonic the Hedgehog in the final act of his debut appearance. Misuse as while utterly evil, played as Evil Is Cool (such the only well received part of Sonic 06), failing explain how/why he was meant to avert/subvert coolness.
Characters.The Texas Chainsaw Massacre:
- Hate Sink: Unlike Leatherface and Drayton, who only kill for food and survival, Nubbins is just a sadistic bastard who revels in the suffering of his victims. Only issue is already under sub-trope More Despicable Minion. Is that grounds for removal (like we do Jerkass if its sub-tropes apply)?
I asked Is this an example?
But got no feedback. Is it OK to re-delete them for these reasons, or any
other thoughts?
openSome odd phrasings on UsefulNotes.BDSM
So this paragraph on UsefulNotes.BDSM is worded a little oddly-
"A century later, these words had picked up some quite different and quite negative meanings. "Sadism" was used as a generic slur for being a malicious jerk or utter monster who enjoys making others suffer, while "masochism" was used as a similar slur to brand people as self-destructive. A popular excuse for refusing to help victims of Domestic Abuse was to brand them "masochists", implying that they merely pretended to not enjoy the beatings, just to get attention. These days, these creepy secondary meanings are losing power as actual sadism and masochism is becoming more and more socially accepted."
Firstly, "sadistic" and "masochistic" are slurs? This paragraph (and the one before it) is correct that "sadistic" and "masochistic" are derived from Marquis de Sade and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch and initially meant only their sexual contexts, but there's this thing called "definition drift", they mean two things now. I've never heard anyone else get offended if someone talks about "a sadistic tyrant" or calls someone a masochist for continuing to watch a show long into its Seasonal Rot. Moreover, a "slur" is not just any word that isn't a compliment. I've never seen any style guide that considers any use of the words "sadistic" or "masochistic" outside of the context of a consensual relationship as offensive or outdated.
Furthermore, I don't think they're falling out of fashion as words outside of BDSM contexts. Here are two news articles from major outlets
from the past month that use these words right in their title.
We have tropes like Sadistic Choice, Soft-Spoken Sadist, Masochist's Meal, and The Masochism Tango, all of which use the quote-unquote "creepy" meanings, and no one's ever complained.
This seems like it was written by a troper with an axe to grind (a whip to crack?) and is personally offended by uses of these words outside consensual BDSM contexts, and doesn't seem like it's a common sentiment among the wider BDSM community. Permission to rewrite?
resolved Is there a limit to the scope of a Crapsack World?
As in, if the setting is primarily limited to a city, can that city be both a Wretched Hive (the city itself) and a Crapsack World (the general setting)?
resolved Agenda Based Editing on pages for Code Geass. Anime
Reddish Guy 1 is once again
conducting agenda based editing
for Code Geass, depicting the Britannian Characters as if they were solely black in terms of morality and changing things to reflect that including removing sympathetic tropes from several characters, while adding YMMV entries suggesting opinion for Noble Demon characters being unsympathetic is widespread despite there be little indication of this outside of the Base-Breaking Character Cornelia. What's more, they attempt to justify this by claiming this site thinks the series is Black-and-Gray Morality, but if the series itself is said to be Grey-and-Gray Morality, then that is what is supposed to be troped, with the idea its not that falling under Unintentionally tropes and Misaimed Fandom. And yes, it is meant to be seen as Grey-and-Gray Morality since the showrunners and even the actors have said as much, with them going on record as stating Cornelia and Suzaku are two of the most moral characters in the show, and they consider Lelouch to be irredeemable. For objective troping, authorial intent is important to note. Whether it worked or not would be covered in YMMV. I've sent them a notifier directing them to this thread, but this needs to be addressed as this is the second time now this situation has needed to be brought up to ATT.
resolved Wrong namespace? Web Original
I was looking through the videos on the VideoExamples.Super Mario Bros page for potential videos that could be kept there, when I came across JustForFun.SMB Plumbing page.
At first I thought, "okay, this is a troper trying to have fun with that Advertising Campaign / ARG website where it's like it's going to the in-universe website where Mario and Luigi are running it"
But then I looked at it and saw it cataloged the actual thing the website was and how it worked both in and out of universe (the page itself might need some cleanup).
I couldn't find a forum thread immediately for a problem like this, but am I correct in thinking this shouldn't be a Just for Fun page, and should go to a different namespace like a Website?
resolved Urbenmyth and ArtisticLicenseTraditionalChristianity
Urbenmyth seems to have take it upon themself to make unilateral, large-scale edits to
Artistic License – Traditional Christianity, before making a discussion post
to complain about the trope, and then cutlisting the trope page entirely without any kind of permission
.
openRemoved elaborated context in trope example Videogame
In Characters.Goddess Of Victory Nikke:
- Iron Scope added a Compelling Voice example in Little Mermaid's character folder
, which reads as a ZCE as it only says that she shares a power with two other characters.
- I edited the example
to elaborate on how she fits Compelling Voice as to not make it a ZCE.
- Sonic Gamer 07 alters the example to remove the description of how her powers work
, only referring it by comparing it to other characters and with a work-specific term for it (kotodama).
I don't think it's good to remove context from an example to make it rely on knowledge of other characters instead of letting it stand by itself, which would make it a bit confusing for readers who aren't familiar with the game, plus according to the "hidden trope name" rule of thumb for ZC Es, it doesn't really specify that her powers are a Compelling Voice. Can I add back the elaboration to not make it a ZCE that's too reliant on work knowledge or at least send a notifier to SonicGamer07?
Edited by Excessive-MenaceopenReporting myself for changing image without Image Pickin' thread
A while back, I changed the image for L'État, c'est moi, but I got ahead of myself and only realized I was supposed to make an Image Pickin' thread after the fact. I've gone back and reverted to the original image while dummying out the new one(s) until I figure out what to do about it.
Should I start an image pickin' thread now? Should I just delete the dummied out images? Was my infraction particularly bad?
Edited by DancouMaryuuresolved Real-life deaths on Tearjerker pages - yay or nay?
I was just checking out the Vinesauce Tearjerker page, and last year someone removed two entries saying that "real life deaths should not be included in Tearjerker pages".
To a point, I can agree. Like if Max Von Sydow was in a movie back in 1978, and someone added his death to the Tearjerker page for that movie when he passed away decades later - yeah, that'd be a major stretch. But this particular instance has me scratching my head.
The entries that were removed pertained to a dog named Molly, who was euthanized due to her health failing, and a community member named Vappyvap 88, who passed away in 2020 due to complications from COVID.
I'm not going to go into elaborate detail about Molly - I don't agree with cutting the entry, since the decision to have her put down was discussed during a stream and clearly had a lot of emotional weight attached to it - making it eligible as a Tearjerker moment for the Vinesauce stream imo - but I'll leave the issue be.
But I do want to talk about Vappyvap 88, because he collaborated with Vinny (one of the Vinesauce streamers) for years. He spent time archiving Vinny's stream VO Ds on his own time, which led to the creation of an official VOD channel on You Tube that Vappy ran in collaboration with Vinny. He eventually stepped down, with Vinny hiring a replacement manager to run the channel, but to a point he was an official collaborator - down to being listed on the Vinesauce characters page alongside the main streamers and other collaborators.
People knew who he was. He was a community member, and his contributions helped to grow the stream and offer more content to the community. And while it was mentioned briefly in passing on the stream - it was extremely upsetting to learn that he had passed away, as a longtime community member.
The reason I feel so strongly about this is because streaming tends to blur the lines between "the stream" as a consumable media product, and real life. Streamers are characters up to a point, but real life hardships do occur and can affect the emotional tone of a stream.
And while I can understand the logic behind keeping real life deaths out of a work's tearjerker page, Vappyvap 88 was involved in one facet of the broader Vinesauce operation. To a point, he was a part of the stream. And it seems callous to remove an entry talking about his death, though I'm clearly biased.
So that's why I'm bringing it to Ask the Tropers. Personally, I see the sense in discouraging real-life entries on a work's Tearjerker pages; point out the tribute in Star Trek Beyond to Anton Yelchin, rather than describing the young star's untimely death which was removed from the media itself, that sort of thing. But streaming, as a form of web video, has a bit more of a connection to the real world - and real world tragedies, like the death of a pet that the audience has heard about for years, or the death of a prominent community member and long-term stream collaborator, will matter to the audience and likely come up during the course of the stream itself.
What do you guys think? And if push comes to shove, and the actual stream clip can be tracked down and linked as an emotional moment - does that qualify an event like this to be included on a page like the stream's Tearjerker page? At that point it would be discussing a moment that occurs during the stream, though the general tone and context of the clip would have to factor in, of course.
openDoubts on a page being relevant
So I stumbled upon UsefulNotes.Viscount Goderich being deleted, upon the argument that, basically, here at TV Tropes we are not out to have equivalents to Wikipedia, but rather to focus on how the subject appears in (or influences) fiction, and in this case, there were no media examples on the page, nor does Wikipedia itself have any reference to any portrayals in fiction (this actually started out a short-term thread
about similar pages about UK Prime Ministers). The point is, this discussion reminded me of a page that has basically the same issues: UsefulNotes.United Kingdom General Election 2015. The page is essentially a rather dry overview of that election... and that's it. No references to it being referenced in fiction, none. Nothing. If anything, in my view, the referendum that took place the following year that resulted in Brexit would be probably more worthy of a page like that since it has media about it that exists on This Very Wiki (like Brexit: The Uncivil War). Should we cut this page? I considered raising the question on a forum thread but I couldn't find one about a topic similar to this one (unless the aforementioned British Politicians threads counted as one, but I think that's a bit of a stretch).

So......time to go back to that annoying question once again: Do we put X-Men '97 back in the Multiverse Saga timeline on the franchise page?
For: It's made by Marvel Studios. It's included on the timeline and section on Disney+ as an official part of the MCU. A variant of TAS/97 Storm will be featured on an episode of What If season 3.
Against: Beau DeMayo went on record to state '97 isn't a part of the MCU.
My take: Studios tend to have the final say, and creators can sometimes be full of crap. James Gunn was adamant that Daredevil and the Netflix shows weren't canon. Soooo... welp on that one. There's also the fact that DeMayo was fired for being a giant dick and sex pest, so Marvel/Disney don't really want to ride on his word as the Word of God - going so far as even striking him from the credits going forward. The creator himself said nay, but there's seemingly more weight to the yay.