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openWhatMeasureIsAnIndex
I brought this up at Is This an Example, but got no reply so I am bringing the discussion here.
What Measure Is an Index? is about Narrative Disregard, but with most tropes listed the disregard comes from the characters which the story portrays negatively.
- What Measure Is an Alternate Reality? (Expendable Alternate Universe)
- What Measure Is Another Race? (Would Be Rude to Say "Genocide") Would Be Rude to Say "Genocide" involves in-universe covering up of Genocide, rarely if ever does the story itself disregard the genocide.
- What Measure Is Another Realm? (Up the Real Rabbit Hole)
- What Measure Is a Traitor? (Category Traitor) Usually the character declaring other to be a Category Traitor is portrayed as a hateful bigot
- What Measure Is a Humanoid?
- What Measure Is a Mook?
- What Measure Is a Clone? (Expendable Clone)
- What Measure Is a Non-Animal? (That Poor Plant)
- What Measure Is a Non-Cute? (Bambi Effect)
- What Measure Is a Non-Human?
- What Measure Is a Non-Magic? (Wrong Context Magic) Wrong Context Magic is rarely potrayed as bad or expandable by the story itself.
- What Measure Is a Non-Original Item? (Ship of Theseus) Theseus' Ship Paradox is a discussion of whether an item is the original or not, but rarely is said item treated as expandable due to not being original.
- What Measure Is an Infidel? (With Us Or Against Us) With Us or Against Us is a mentality portrayed in a negative light, with said individuals rightfully defending themselves.
- What Measure Is a Dissenter? (The Complainer is Always Wrong)
- What Measure Is a Non-Super? (Muggle Power) Rarely does Muggle Power involve genuinely oppressed muggles treated as just jealous by the narrative. Stories themselves disregarding the lives and views of muggles is a potential trope in and of itself.
- What Measure Is a Non-Unique? (Uniqueness Value)
- What Measure is a Unique? (All of the Other Reindeer) All of the Other Reindeer is about society shunning the character being portrayed in a negative light, usually learning an aesop about said shunning.
resolved Can’t think of a title
So, if something like a “replay” icon is shown within a video itself, is that allowed?
Edited by Puttotheangel23openAbout Franchise-wide example subpages and inconsistency
I've been really wanting to bring this up for years, but only had enough info to say it now.
If a trope or YMMV lists examples for the entire franchise and its installments... what's the best way to deal with examples that are already in the specific installments' pages? Take Memes subpages and the Memetic Mutation examples in this case, Should we...
- Duplicate the examples in both the specific installment's YMMV page and the series-wide subpage?
- Prioritize the series-wide subpage and simply leave a link towards it in the specific installment's YMMV page?
- Put the examples only in the specific installment's YMMV page?
- Make a Memes subpage for that specific installment and have it separated from the series-wide Memes subpage?
I've seen a lot of inconsistency when it comes to these pages, especially the Memes, Shout-Out, and Fan Nickname subpages. The problem is that one list may have entries not found in the other list, or that there may be redundant examples.
For context, this is what I observed in Memes subpages alone:
- Memes.Persona exists (which includes memes for specific games like Persona 3 and Persona 3 Reload), but YMMV.Persona 3 and YMMV.Persona 3 Reload have their own lists of Memetic Mutation examples.
- Memes.Resident Evil groups the memes found in the original games and their remakes. There's already a list there for Resident Evil Village... and yet another Memes subpage, Memes.Resident Evil Village, exists for that game.
- Memes.Castlevania lists memes for the games, and yet there's a separate Memes page for the Castlevania (2017) Netflix adaptation, found in Memes.Castlevania 2017. Notice how Memes.Castlevania does not even link the adaptation's own Memes subpage.
- Memes.League Of Legends lists memes for the main LoL game and its E-sports scene, but at least the intro immediately tells the reader that there's a separate Memes.Arcane page for the Arcane show.
- Memes.Metal Gear also lists memes for the entire franchise, the YMMV.Metal Gear Rising Revengeance page links there, but there's a redirect
implying that Revengeance used to have its own Memes subpage. The edit history confirms it did
, and a discussion about it was posted via an ATT query
(a troper named GRD made that game-specific subpage, but discussion agreed to have troper Amonimus turn it into a redirect to the series-wide Metal Gear memes page).
- Memes.Devil May Cry has been the "centralized" page for all memes of the Devil May Cry franchise. The Page Info says it existed since November 2018 and several DMC tropers (including myself) have been adding and updating meme entries in just that page to maintain consistency. However, it seems like some tropers already, pre-emptively added a Memetic Mutation entry for Adi Shankar's upcoming Devil May Cry (2025) show in its YMMV.Devil May Cry 2025 page. Shouldn't it be moved to Memes.Devil May Cry instead?
There may be plenty more questions that I'd still like to ask (such as "When's the right time for a specific installment's examples to be separated from the franchise-wide subpage?"), but at this point, it's disappointing to see how TV Tropes is very inconsistent when it comes to listing Memes and handling franchise-wide subpages, especially when you now have installment(s) with three pages for its Memetic Mutation examples... (Looking at you Memes.Persona, YMMV.Persona 3 and YMMV.Persona 3 Reload).
resolved About Katriel Videogame
Today a troper named Katriel posted a theory on Choices: Stories You Play the problem is it's completely written badly to the point no one can understand it, here it is.
"What more deconstructive/ subversive/ satirical takes on standard choices archetypes and genres could look like A work story with all of the elements of typical choices work stories : a competition in place , a jealous rival willing to resort to any means to dethrone us from the top , an unusually physically attractive boss ... except the job in question is sewage treatment and any [[romance sleeping with the boss ]] is off the table for whatever reason , [[constantly lampshade how dubiously legal the affair is better than a bare bulb ]] , or [[mercilessly deconstruct the trope deconstructed trope]] by underscoring how [[horrifying played for horror]] it would actually be to work under a charismatic , experienced , and halo effect inducingly beautiful person who is attracted to you ... but the feeling is not mutual. Worse yet , all your friends and coworkers dismiss, downplay, and even [[ship you shipper on deck]] with your predator, to the point where they cannot stop [[gushing about how amazing and great they are Creators pet]]. All in all, the [[ultimate message of the story is central theme]] that while not all jobs can or should be necessarily glamorized, they are still important to keep society running and, as a matter of fact might be far more important than many of those "glamorous" careers. A romance from [[ the perspective of perspective flip]] the "other woman" rival seen in more recent romances. In a manner akin to [[ Crazy ex-Girlfriend]] we could delve into the forces that [[psychologically Freudian excuse]] made her into the person she is. Perhaps the plot could focus on her attempts to actually keep a romantic partner after a long history of being dumped by (and in one case [[left at the alter]] by) so many former flames. [[This time never be hurt again]], our heroine chooses to model herself after the sweet [[ childhood friends]] and the [[ maniac pixie dream girls]] that she was dumped for; as well as [[Rom - Com Protagonists in general genre savvy]]. An [[ inversion]] of the "Hollywood" stories that are the bread and butter of so many VN apps like this one. In other words [[ the player character would begin the story with a mansion , a steady partner , and immense fame to an obscure star living out in middle America ; eeking out a living riches to rags]] . It could be a capital "T" [[ Tragedy]] following a once reknowned Writer,Director , and performer from the [[ pre- Hays code]] era as they struggle against greater powers to include radical themes within their projects. [[ Ultimately , though foregone conclusion]] they [[downer ending lose all they once had]] including their [[ mansion]] , respect amung filmmaking elites , and their partner to the fears inflamed by the [[ red scare]] , the [[extreme censorship that smothered their ability to tell the stories they needed to tell bowdlerized]] , and the [[passage of time that obscured their name look upon my works ye mighty and despair]]. The [[frame story]] could center around some [[ greek chorus podcasters]] helping a curator collect interviews and personal objects from the protagonists life , therefore justifying a "collection minigame ", in order to exhibit for a new section on <span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> [[ pre- Hays code]] era" ^ (what Katriel typed not me)
Should we send Katriel a notifer to type their sentences better so we can understand them?
Edited by RyckmanhopenAsshole Victim misuse re-added, salvageable?
This was added to Mephiles under Characters.Sonic The Hedgehog Modern Era Antagonists 1 Mainline Games
- Asshole Victim: His fate in Shadow Generations is rather horrifying as he wants nothing more than to be free from the non-existence the Cosmic Retcon at the end of '06 did to him, but even Shadow, who has no recollection of him, knows that he's a murderous destroyer who cannot be let free in any capacity. In fact, he tried to completely wipe out all of time after reuniting with Iblis, so if anything being Ret-Gone is a fitting punishment for him.
This was previously deemed misuse
as he was trying to kill Shadow who only retaliated in self-defense, so not a Victim.
I realized there is an argument for Victim in that Black Doom set him up to be defeated in Generation as part of his Evil Plan, and Shadow didn't know about his atrocities/omnicidal ambitions that would 100% justify stopping him regardless of just being in his way, thoughts?
openMaking a Private WiP Page
So I'm a busy man, which means I don't have much free time to add or make pages. And I want to make a character page, but since I don't have much time for myself to work on it, how do I make a page private to myself so I can work on it when I do have the time and post it when there's much more to the page besides red links?
openVery poor quality edits from Tropers/SubZero008
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/EldenRingDemigodsTwins
They changed the Full-Circle Revolution entry from this,
"Somewhat Downplayed in that his Age of Compassion is halted before it comes to fruition, but Miquella has always sought to end the oppression of the Golden Order and made the Haligtree as a sanctuary for the shunned. Shadow of the Erdtree sees him attempt apotheosis to bring a more peaceful world, yet in doing so, he leaves the fate of the Haligtree uncertain by using Mohg to get him out and let him enter the Land of Shadow. Along his journey, he sets aside everything that he has, including his restraints and capacity to love, which is dangerous when combined with his ability to hypnotically convert others. If St. Trina and both Soreseal descriptions are to be believed, in that becoming a god would only be a guilded cage, Miquella's goals would leave him in a similar state to that of Marika in the Erdtree. Furthermore, it's implied that anyone who would oppose him (like the Tarnished during phase 2 of the Final Boss) would be forced into cooperation via his powers. The Circlet Of Light he leaves is described as the "foundation" of his Age Of Compassion, and a symbol resembling it will appear above anyone caught by the Promised Consort's heart-stealing grab. With a loyal musclebound champion at his side to reinforce his all-controlling era, as both Godfrey and Radagon did for Marika, Miquella offers a system that's just as uncaring and with as many flaws as the original Golden Order he sought to supplant."
To this
"Averted. Despite the absurd conflating from tropers who fundamentally misunderstand the most basic moral dilemnas whenever a story writes a conflict or dilemna that doesn't easily fit into existing tropes or isn't constantly recycled over and over in popular media...Marika's order was founded on and repeatedly enacted genocide for cultural, religious, personal, or even purely racist grounds. Constantly saying Miquella is "just as bad" or "will be just as bad" or "was just as cruel" or all that other idiotic nonsence that blatantly disregards the actual writing in the game is unbelievably wrong. It's like trying to teach three-year old children out of black and white thinking. Miquella spent the vast majority of his life and career trying to directly address the consequences of the multiple genocides and literal world-destroying wars his mother AND his fellow siblings waged - and because he used immoral tactics or used violence as a tool himself, he's suddenly conflated as being "just as bad" as his mother? It's amazing to see how Ranni is being worshipped as a "good counterpart" to Miquella on this website despite literally causing the entire war with no regrets, motivated solely by her personal liberation, and Radahn is likewise worshipped as being a "heroic" lover of war who also enacted mass violence (including flame weapons and torture machines) to pursue his personal goals, and Mesmer who LITERALLY ENACTED GENOCIDE is mourned as a "tragic villain" who "didn't really want to do it"...yet Miquella ALSO using violence for a benevolent end goal is condemned as being the worst of them all? What a fucking joke"
It's not being done on a YMMV page, but the character page. Barring its general inflammatory nature, the spelling mistakes, and the fact they use a lot of unnecessary capital words and swearing, I feel like it just reads like a rant. Should I revert the edit back to the original.
openQuestion about spoilers for tropes;
If the fact that the trope applies is a spoiler in and of itself, could it potentially be worth spoiling the trope name and example separately so that if someone wanted to know, they could reveal the trope name first and then decide if they want to see the example from there?
resolved Diesel Punk or Oceanpunk? Videogame
I really like the look and feel of this videogame called The Brew Barons, a Ghibli-inspired video game where you fly seaplanes, collect items to brew different kinds of alcohol, and fight off sky pirates (just like the epitomous Porco Rosso).
I don't own the game nor can my laptops run it so even if I want to write the page, I'm sadly out of the loop. So as a sort of bookmark, I thought to make it a red link for the time being, hoping either I get to play it one day for myself or someone else makes the page for the rest of us. However, I don't know whether to put it in Ocean Punk or Diesel Punk, or if I should even make a redlink at all.
openUsing swearing when describing tropes - permitted or forbidden?
I know gratuitous profanity in examples is listed as Word Cruft while also being a Bluenose Bowdlerizer is discouraged, but as far as TV Tropes' generally accepted and striven for writing conventions in articles, does using terms like "fucks it up", "being an asshole", or "being his dumbass self" go against any of the Adminstrivia policies when editing articles? I know we have more lenient POV guidelines than Wikipedia or Fandom like allowing the generic "Tropes that apply" or "Visit the unabridged version HERE" being allowed to be written to reflect a quote or theme of the work documented, but I don't know if the same applies to asterisk-preceded examples.
I'm mainly talking about pages on works in any medium rather than Tropes themselves, as those are usually written from a subjective and generalizing standpoint with some humor thrown in at the beginning paragraph and/or folders if it's comedic or imitating the character subject of the trope. But from my experience, examples on a work's page are described more seriously, but I'm not sure what the line is for occasional allowances of language in example descriptions that wouldn't change the meaning/point either way if they were changed into something more informal (-> being an asshole -> being a jerk -> being arrogant/selfish/rude). Even if such a rule were in place or preferred, tropes that already have profanity in the title like Asshole Victim or Bitch in Sheep's Clothing would obviously be exceptions whether following the asterisk or being mentioned in a sentence after the colon of another trope, since Sinkholing is forbidden as a format regardless of the trope name.
I'm also wondering if it depends on the target demographic of the work and/or the subpage the profane descriptions of an applicable trope is used? What may seem like conventional description on a South Park example feels a bit out of place on a SpongeBob one.
Edited by TacoyogoopenProblem troper
Urania 1204 re-added ZC Es without actually adding context to the entry itself on at least two separate occasions (here)
and here
. They've also misused tropes
, and added aversions as an example here
. I've sent notifiers and reverted edits where someone else hasn't already done so, but given that and their prior conduct (including in a previous ATT query thread
), what should be done next?
openPossibly disruptive user
On Characters.The Amazing Digital Circus Players, WELLBEBACK 7653 has made 3 edits changing the label of the hidden spoiler image in Kaufmo's folder to "NO WAY OUT", except that label only makes sense if you've already watched The Amazing Digital Circus, so the phrase by itself is a revealing spoiler. I'm asking if anyone can revert that change.
I'm aware that there's a previous ATT query
about this troper, so we may need to check their other edits.
resolved "Blitzo" or "Blitzø" for ''Helluva Boss'' main character? Web Original
There's been a bit of a back and forth between myself and another editor—TheAmazingBlachman—as to whether or not the main character of Helluva Boss' name should be spelled "Blitzo" or "Blitzø".
For context—the main character in question is an imp assassin who in his youth was a circus clown named "Blitzo", but as an adult he spells his name "Blitzø" (how it's spelled on official merch and in the credits, with the "ø" representing a crossed-out "o") or "Blitz⦻" (how it's spelled in the episode "Truth Seekers"—again to emphasize that the "o" has been crossed out) and pronounces it "Blitz" (which is how some of the other characters spell it) in order to make himself sound more mature and badass.
TheAmazingBlachman's point of contention, to my understanding, is that "ø" is an actual letter in several languages, and therefore Helluva Boss improperly using it in the main character's name to represent a crossed-out "o" comes across as nonsensical to speakers of those languages—akin to a played-straight usage of The Backwards Я. Ergo, TheAmazingBlachman has been going through and changing "Blitzø" to "Blitzo" because—to quote the editing reason—"Ø is an actual letter, not a silent O, and his name sure isn't Blitz-euh."
I'm personally of the opinion that—at least when referring to the character as an adult—his name should be spelled how the series does in the credits and official merch, but our discussion in DMs was going in circles without resolution so I figured the matter should be taken to ATT for a vote rather than risk an edit war starting up.
resolved PhoenixRedux
In this review
, Phoenix Redux admitted to deleting their old account and creating a new one specifically to write an overly-long review that breaks the 3000 character limit several times over.
Considering that deleting your old account to make a new one is prohibited without permission from the moderators, and the troper in question deleted their account two years before making a new one, I have to wonder...is this allowed? Especially if they were previously suspended (which I can't investigate myself, as I have no idea what their previous handle was called)?
openDoes Straight Gay only apply to men or are women included?
On Characters.Celeste, there's a commented out note
added by scoooool with the following:
This states that Straight Gay only applies to gay men, which is also suggested by the laconic page.
A gay male with no stereotypical gay traits or mannerisms.
However, on the actual page itself, it makes it clear that Straight Gay applies to men and women, with the first paragraph being:
Originally treated as a subversion of the standard gay stereotypes, the Straight Gay is a homosexual male or female character who has no camp mannerisms, Butch Lesbian tendencies, or obviously "gay" affectations.
So which is it? Is Straight Gay supposed to be an Always Male trope or are women included as well?
It's worth noting that the addition of female characters/lesbians to the description was retroactively added
by Emie K 88 in 2023 with no edit reason.
openSelf-Demonstrating page interaction entry removed without reason
About a couple days ago, WELLBEBACK7653 removed
this interaction entry from Self-Demonstrating.Alastor without citing an edit reason.
- SOMEBODY GET THIS DERANGED EMBODIMENT OF LUST AWAY FROM ME BECAUSE I CAN'T EVEN MAKE THE MOVE TO TEAR HER TO PIECEEEEES!!!!! note Angel: Let me think... no. Actually, you two should kiss. Alastor: ANGELLLLLL!!!
Personally, I see nothing wrong with this entry, so could it be added back without problem?
I've already notified WELLBEBACK about this query.
resolved Ranma 1/2 popularity and critical reception
So a while back I removed parts of the description of Ranma ½:
Even with these problems, the Ranma ½ anime became a popular show in its day – even in North America. Ranma became one of the first major crossover hits that helped usher in the explosion of anime importation in the early-to-mid-1990s, and was the very first anime TV series to ever be released in English with a faithful, fully completed uncut dub.note The first uncut English dub was M&M Communications' dub of Mazinger Z in 1977, but only 30 episodes were dubbed. Many fans think of the dub by Viz Media and Ocean Studios, which premiered on November 2nd, 1993, as one of the first decent efforts in the history of English anime adaptation. Viz did its best to minimize the usual culprits of Cultural Translation, Bowdlerization, and localization – which contrasts heavily with the show's near-contemporary Sailor Moon (Viz released Ranma directly to video rather, whereas Sailor Moon arrived via television syndication, though Ranma also aired for a short time in some markets). It was even briefly optioned for a live-action Hollywood film in the late 1990s, although nothing ever came of it. Ranma had the fortunate luck to arrive in the the English language market at about the same time that the World Wide Web emerged into public life, which led to the show acquiring one of the first major online fan communities, the Fan Fiction Mailing List, or FFML, which primarily centered around Ranma despite the generic name, and the first known online scanlation effort, the RanmaScan project.
Despite its age, Ranma ½ still has a remarkably large and vigorous North American fan community – and it's still responsible for a significant fraction of the anime fanfiction on the web, including a wide variety of crossovers. Ranma ½ is probably one of the most crossed-over series on the Internet – on fanfiction.net alone, it has over 1,100 listed crossovers and hundreds (if not thousands) listed elsewhere. (That doesn't count unlisted crossovers, either there or elsewhere.) To put that into perspective: while Naruto has around eight times the number of crossovers listed, Naruto also has over twenty-four times as many stories listed as Ranma does total. One sub-type of Ranma fanfic – the Fuku Fic – became common enough that it has its own genre. The series' length and fanbase has predictably resulted in copious amounts of Fanon; it also inspired the comic series Ninja High School, among many other creations.
The reason why I removed it was purely because work pages shouldn't have their critical reception and popularity mentioned in the main description. I've even discussed about this
and added the reasoning for the edit here
.
However, the stuff I edited out was reverted back
without reasoning. I don't wanna engage in an edit war so I'm not sure what to do about this.
resolved Move, pls Film
I think the real reason why Itsuki No Kimi E has only 1 wick is because the title itself is misspelled. A quick search shows that the title is supposed to be "Itsuka no Kimi e" ("Loving You"). And one of the characters' names is "Noboru Fukami", not "Noboru Funami". How to move a page?

Is it acceptable to pothole to Running Gag when something gets repeated on TV Tropes for humor? I checked the In-Universe Examples Only page and Running Gag isn't there, but I still want to double-check that this isn't one of those "annoying misuse of a trope" types of sinkhole that could lead to Trope Decay or worse.
I ask most specifically about this portion of the Leeroy Jenkins subpage for Tabletop Games, where I just added a pothole after the same thing was said for the fifth time:
- The GURPS team seems to love Leeroying, inasmuch as there are so many Disadvantages that can produce it:
- Berserk: You must roll to avoid Leeroying any time you take 3 or more hits in one turn, or under "Other conditions of extreme stress (GM's option)" — i.e. pretty much in any combat.
- Bloodlust: You must roll to avoid Leeroying any time you have a chance to kill a "legitimate enemy" — i.e. pretty much in any combat.
- Impulsiveness: You must roll to avoid Leeroying any time the rest of the party are taking too long discussing something — i.e. pretty much before any combat.
- On the Edge: You must roll to avoid Leeroying any time you have a chance to deliberately put yourself in mortal danger — i.e. pretty much before or during (and possibly after) any combat.
- Overconfidence: You must roll to avoid Leeroying any time you feel yourself a match, or more than a match, for your opponent — i.e. pretty much in any combat.
Edited by Bomber-Boi