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openDispute on YMMV.Mulan
There is a dispute between myself and Catcher In The Wry on YMMV.Mulan. In short, I removed an entry he wrote, and he took offense to it, PMing me to say he was "annoyed" and that he would take it to a mod. He has not restored the entry, so it's not an Edit War yet, but from the tone of his PM, and of the entry I deleted, I figure it's better to get here first.
The entry was for Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic; the first I deleted because it was, to my judgment, factually inaccurate — it stated that Shang gave no instruction (despite the Make A Man Out Of You montage showing him leading the group in exercises, as well as the group improving, clearly implying that his teaching is effective), and that all he did was demand the recruits like Mulan perform expert level feats and scowl when they failed. Basically, the entry seems to assume that the actions shown in the aforementioned montage are literally the only things Shang did with the group, and therefore Shang is an unreasonable bully for not teaching Mulan anything and then being annoyed that she isn't an Instant Expert.
It also had indentation issues, with a second level bulletpoint that just further expounds on Shang's supposed failures.
The second I deleted because it's based entirely on the first — saying Obstructive Bureaucrat Chi Fu is sympathetic because he's right to be critical of Shang's alleged incompetence. As the first entry is factually inaccurate, the second one based entirely on that should also go.
So far he has not yet PMed me over removing his Alternative Character Interpretation (which I deleted because it doesn't actually explain the alternate interpretation, it just sort of trails off with a parenthetical about how what Chi Fu did was justified), but given his reaction to my removal of his other entry, I expect it's forthcoming.
In all, the entries appear to be based less on the content of the work, and more on this troper's personal dislike for the character Shang, which is in turn based on a factually inaccurate understanding of the movie.
openEdit War on YMMV/Super Smash Bros Ultimate
In YMMV.Super Smash Bros Ultimate I removed an addition to the sole Ending Fatigue example by wrpen99 due to it being more about an example of That One Achievement, which is already listed on the page, and because it was on a separate bullet instead being added onto the example itself, I noted both in the Edit Reason, though I neglected to also mention the complaining nature of the edit. I also sent them an Example Indentation notifier before the removal.
They readded their edit, again on a separate bullet, with the part that was already under That One Achievement removed, but what remains still doesn't have anything to do with Ending Fatigue and reads more like complaining about an Ear Worm.
Edited by homogenizedopenRecap/CodeLyoko Western Animation
For Code Lyoko, I need help getting tropes for all the episodes, plus getting pages for the rest of the red linked episodes (and get XANA Awakens a page for itself (both parts 1 and 2), for crying out loud). I can't do this on my own. Can someone help me?
Edited by Teenlyokofan7777openSociopathic Soldier
Some guy edited the description trope and replaces a few important categories. Should we revert them back?. His reasoning to edit it seems self-righteous and based on his own value
Edited by jun_kagamiopenIs this ROCEJ?
I found this example on YMMV.Battle Bots under The Scrappy.
- Chomp has quickly gotten into this zone for several reasons. The first being the fact that builder Zoe Stephenson is often used to push the "women can be just as good at Battlebots" agenda down the throats of viewers. Moreover is the fact that Chomp won against The Disk 'O Inferno despite being dominated the whole time because of the skewed new rules (see Scrappy Mechanic below). It's telling when the audience booed when Chomp won.
I highlighted the specific part in bold here because it seems to be complaining about the builder Zoe herself rather than the robot she built. Is this Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment?
openFound on WesternAnimation/Driven to Suicide
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DrivenToSuicide/WesternAnimation
- My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic:
- In the episode "No Second Prances", a very distraught Trixie Lulamoon attempts to perform a dangerous magic trick involving launching herself into a manticore's mouth alone. Her assistant Starlight Glimmer would have teleported her to safety, but Starlight learned the only reason that Trixie acted nicely towards her was so that Trixie could one-up Twilight Sparkle. Even worse, when Trixie reveals that she genuinely likes Starlight, she makes the mistake of adding in that "beating Twilight Sparkle is just a bonus!", which only angers Starlight more. Thankfully, Twilight is able to convince Starlight to help Trixie just in time to make the stunt go off without a hitch. While Word of God has confirmed that Trixie going on with the show was not a suicide attempt — there are a few subtle cues in the episode that make it clear Trixie's life wasn't in danger — it was still enough for it to be a popular fanon due to Trixie's Friendless Background.
So... not driven to suicide, then.
Remove?
openIs there a process to remove video non-examples?
If a video posted on a page does not, in fact, represent the trope, is there a process for removal? I posted on the ongoing project thread, but it doesn't seem to see much activity. Plus video stuff requires mod involvement.
The video on Samus Is a Girl
It's not an example. At all.
The trope is "A character is shown to be a badass BEFORE being revealed as being female"
It's patently obvious that Eowyn is a woman before she unmasks. Doubly so in the movie proper where this is an established fact long before the depicted scene. The audience knows she's a girl. It's not even clear if the Witch King himself doesn't know she a female, since he most likely uses the term "man" as in the race of man. Not the gender.
Edited by GhilzopenGeneral Example
I found this extensive list of general anime examples on Animation Age Ghetto.
- Anime, with its extension to extremely controversial topics such as horror and Hentai, is often cited as the reason for the annihilation of the Animation Age Ghetto. Anime, and Hentai, is the prime rebuttal against any argument that animation was for kids. Anime remains a hot button issue in the debate over the Age Ghetto thanks to the fact that some Anime is adult and was never in the Ghetto to begin with, and that it only enters the Ghetto when dubbed to other languages, and even that was toned down in the early 2000s in favor of more faithful dubs.
- The case for Anime and Manga when dealing with the Animation Age Ghetto (without trying to deal with All Anime Is Naughty Tentacles) is as laughable as it is sad considering that so much anime that the West knows (shonen, almost completely)- while considered safe for kids or teens in Japan - could end up with R ratings in other countries, and yet countries such as Mexico, who are still deep inside the Age Ghetto, refuse to see it any other way than 'if it's drawn, it's for kids, even if there are exposed penises, exposed breasts, on-screen decapitations, and cluster F-bombs.' Anime is what students of the Age Ghetto (for and against) use to prove that there is, in fact, an Age Ghetto. Some of the outright funny/ridiculous/laziest examples occur when studios try dubbing out suggestive or offensive dialogue, but the show itself still features massive levels of sexual themes or gore — a character tries playing it off with 'cute' or 'cheesy' dialogue that suggests that the sword clearly impaling her and pushing her heart out through her chest is actually nothing more than a trick and she actually caught the sword under her arm.
- By the way, what most in the west don't know is that there is more than just shonen, but in terms of shipping it to the West, at least on major broadcasting, the ghetto prevents anyone from learning about this because executives/moral guardians are going to make it shonen. Any anime that isn't acceptable for kids and not set on a network that plays such stuff uncensored- or is acceptable for kids to an extent and has to be excessively censored- will suffer this. However, that particular aspect is not Age Ghetto- it begins with Bowdlerisation and continues from there.
- In terms of fame and recognition, any series in the West (English-speaking countries in particular) that doesn't have a successful family-friendly English dub is unlikely to break into pop culture at large. Some series that are mainstream in Japanese culture, such as Neon Genesis Evangelion and Attack on Titan, are mere cult classics in the West (or part of youth culture if they're lucky) merely because they were marketed towards teens/adults from the beginning. On the now-defunct "Sliding Scale of Anime Obscurity" page on this very wiki, anime series were ranked based on their recognizability in English-speaking pop culture; every single series ranked at Level 0 (i.e. part of mainstream culture) has had a family-friendly or kid-oriented English dub and is most well-known for such.
- Another factor is Values Dissonance between the Anglosphere and other cultures: The idea in Japan, France, The Netherlands etc. that cuteness is meant for the entire family means that cute characters and settings are enjoyed or at least tolerated by every demographic, whereas cuteness in North America is associated with childishness or femininity. In addition, the Japanese concept of the Christmas Cake (which states that a woman is old once she reaches 25 years of age) clashes with the American Paedo Hunt. Hence, while a fan of Moe is considered a social outcast in both Japan and overseas, liking moe is simply geeky in Japan, France and Belgium but appallingly immature in North America and the United Kingdom. All together, the prevalence of anime and manga with a cute aesthetic causes anime fans in North American countries to appear immature and childish.
I'm pretty sure this violates Examples are Not General. What do you think?
openEdit War in the Code Lyoko Characters page. Western Animation
Georgie Enkoom listed an example of Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse in the Code Lyoko page, where he describes a character that tries to be The Atoner, but is rejected by the other characters. I deleted it due to mis-use, as the situation described is actually Heel–Face Door-Slam, and the entry itself has many points that seem to be based on speculation. However, Georgie almost immediately added it back with no edit reason whatsoever, and worse, he undid another one of my edits where I explain/hide a few Zero Context Examples, apparently out of spite.
It should also be noted that his edits
have some basic grammar errors. A few of his latest ones include:
"As a good guy, he dishes one to nine Creepers, who doesn't even touches him."
"He can throw his swords, but it doesn't guarantees that it will always hit."
Some of his other edits are also blanket statements:
"Half the Man He Used to Be: One of his preferred methods to devirtualize the Lyoko-warriors."
"Impaled with Extreme Prejudice: see Half the Man He Used to Be above."
I have fixed some of these, but given his reaction to my first edit, I wouldn't be surprised if the conflict escalated.
Edited by TantaMontyopenRat-Man Print Comic
So I just stumbled upon Rat-Man. It and all of its subpages were created with a hyphen. I can't move them myself at the moment, so I figured I mention here so someone who has the time and wants to can do it.
openUnofficial vs official English spellings Anime
Minor spoilers for One Piece below
So there's a character/group in the One Piece manga called "Rox". Many of the fan translations (and Oda himself) spell it as "Rocks", but the official English releases from VIZ and Crunchyroll use "Rox". Since it's the most recent official English version, I edited One Piece: Historical Figures and Flashback Characters to reflect this spelling. Troper killerdurian2 reverted the changes, citing Oda. I didn't undo his edit, as that would be considered edit warring, but I did send him a PM explaining my reasoning and asking if he would reverse his changes.
Just wanting to confirm, the "most recent official English translation" guideline is still in effect yes?
Edited by DeeeFooopenI need a second opinion
In a previous post, I raised some concerns about the Common Knowledge pages for X-Men and Spider-Man. I feel that I should probably ask a more specific question about both of those pages now.
Both pages have a folder titled "Wider Marvel Universe", which (allegedly) addresses the common misconception that Spider-Man and the X-Men don't interact with other Marvel Comics superheroes that much. But both of them are crammed with entries that go grossly off-topic, and ramble at length about obscure Marvel trivia that have very little to do with common misconceptions held by the general public (which is what Common Knowledge is supposedly all about). They also seem very contradictory, since both of them include entries that outright say that the "misconception" isn't really a misconception (i.e. Spider-Man and the X-Men really don't interact with other Marvel superheroes for most of their history).
The X-Men entries are a bit more egregious than the Spider-Man entries, but I have serious doubts about whether any of these entries (included below) fit the definition of Common Knowledge. But I also feel a little apprehensive about outright deleting an entire folder.
I need a second opinion:
Do you think I'd be justified in deleting these entries?
- The X-Men having historically minimal involvement (at best) with the greater, non-mutant side of the Marvel Universe, at least compared to other Marvel superheroes, was often cited as a justification for Fox continuing to hold the X-Men movie rights before Disney acquired them, since (of course) the X-Men would've never interacted with any of the other characters in the Marvel Cinematic Universe anyways. This argument isn't without merit but it is badly contextualized and poorly premised owing to the huge changes since the first publication of these characters.
- As mentioned below, the X-Men series since The '70s easily supplanted the Fantastic Four as Marvel's most popular team and it had more spin-offs, solo titles, and events than others, while at the time the Avengers were a B-List dumping ground (a situation that was itself a reversal of the status-quo where originally the X-Men were C-List and the Avengers more viable, albeit still less well known than the Fantastic Four). So the idea that the X-Men don't cross into the wider Marvel Universe and is its own self-contained thing is precisely because nobody in the fans and among the editors were clamoring for wider integration until the movie shared universe came around and made it viable. To put simply: From the early-'80s up until around 2005, the X-Men side of the mythos was considered the backbone of the universe and to many, it was the superheroes that weren't mutants/X-Men that were considered on the outside (Spider-Man being the big exception for many years), not the other way around. If you need a quick reference, just take a look at the roster of the well-regarded 2000 Crossover fighter Marvel vs. Capcom 2note Of the 28 Marvel characters, 18 are considered X-Men-related, including two Wolverines. The only ones that weren't part of the X-Men mythos were Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, War Machine, The Incredible Hulk, Venom, Doctor Doom, Thanos, Blackheart, and Shuma-Gorath, the latter two being Unexpected Characters chosen for their unique designs and gameplay potential. There's a certain hilarity that a generic Sentinel or an F-lister like Marrow got to be in the crossover over characters like Black Panther or The Mighty Thor, which would earn Snark Bait in today's world. and you'll see exactly why this is misconceived and why the idea is from a perspective looking at it now through filtered glasses.
- Not helping is that this has been acknowledged by writers and in-universe with there even being a correlation between the two at times. Grant Morrison's iconic run of New X-Men (considered a Soft Reboot that changed the franchise forever) deliberately kept the non-mutant/X-Men side of the Marvel Universe as minimal as possible, because he wanted the story to feel distinct on its own. This seeped into the narrative itself, where most of the mutants were neutral to the Civil War because the rest of the MU did nothing to help when Genosha was destroyed (Emma Frost even asked Iron Man when he tried to enlist their aide: "Where were the Avengers when our children were dying?"). Indeed, the separation between the two has been real, and has been part of the narrative for a variety of factors, leading to these scenarios.
- It should be noted that this even has precedence in the earliest issues of Marvel, albeit for completely opposite reasons. At the time, the X-Men were about as C-list as you could get for Marvel titles; it didn't have any of the epic stories the series is known for, the analogy for the Civil Rights Movement wasn't there, nor was it a diverse Multinational Team which the comics would set the standard for, it mainly had the team (consisting of five white New Yorkers) dealing with D-list bad guys when they weren't Magneto (how many people seriously know of The Vanisher or Sauron?), with Magneto himself being your typical over-the-top villain with no real depth or values, and the general perception by everyone was that the X-Men was nothing more than a dime-store version of the Fantastic Four. For that reason, the X-Men hardly ever crossed over to the wider universe mainly because they were just so low on the totem pole, and it was in their best interests to keep them away from the higher-selling and more marketable properties. In fact, it got so bad that in 1970, the entire series was cancelled for five real-world years because they just weren't profitable enough to be worth keeping around. It wasn't until 1975's Giant-Sized X-Men and Chris Claremont's subsequent run did this actually change to where the X-Men were the hot A-list property that stood as the backbone of Marvel for over two decades, and if anything, actually invited more crossover.
- That being said, two of the original members of the Brotherhood of Mutants (Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver) and one of the original X-Men (Beast) were members of The Avengers, which—given its dumping ground status—had very High Turnover Rate qualifying this achievement (since basically they let everyone in at that point). In the case of Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, they were originally mutant villains turned superheroes, and the idea of them being Magneto's children didn't come in until after Chris Claremont where Magneto became a Tragic Villain with real virtues, because nobody would wish Kirby-Lee Magneto as a father to their worst enemy. For most of their history, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch had more history and ties to the non-mutant side of the universe than they did within it.
- Notably, Quicksilver has also been very heavily involved with the X-Men's antithesis: The Inhumans. This is mainly through his Interspecies Romance with Crystal, which produced the first mutant/inhuman hybrid in Marvel in the form of their daughter Luna. Also, Scarlet Witch has long been romantically involved with The Vision, and that fact as shaped Marvel as we know in more ways than one such as leading to the reincarnated sons Wiccan and Speed of the Young Avengers.
- There have been several crossovers between the X-Men and other Marvel superheroes, which tends to be neglected because again owing to the great divergence in popularity and sales, these stories tend to be remembered as X-Men stories first, and have lasting consequences in the X-Men continuity rather than elsewhere. Mutant Massacre, for example, was officially a crossover event between the X-Men, X-Factor, the New Mutants, and Thor, and even saw tie-ins with Daredevil and Power Pack, but it had more lasting consequences in the X-Men continuity. Similarly, other stories considered "X-Overs" (the Fan Nickname for the Bat Family Crossover between them) did in fact feature tie-ins to the wider universe, it's just seldom remembered as the X-Men were the stars. Two notable examples are Fall of the Mutants, which reached Captain America, Daredevil, Power Pack, Hulk, and the Fantastic Four, while Inferno was a line-wide story that featured Spider-Man, the Avengers, Cloak and Dagger, Daredevil, Power Pack, the Fantastic Four, and Damage Control fighting off demons — it's just that the X-Men and related teams were the stars while everyone else were second-stringers in terms of marketing and narrative note for reference, the X-Men were core to the plot, whereas the others were used as tie-ins where they held off the demon invasion in New York City.
- X-Men event titles such as Age of Apocalypse were likewise a Marvel-wide event albeit it had more story consequences within the X-Men than elsewhere. A notable example of this in action is Onslaught, which was a company-wide Crisis Crossover that had major ramifications across the wide Marvel Universe (for example, the non-mutant Thunderbolts were formed directly in the wake of it), yet is mainly remembered as an X-Men story first and foremost in no small part because it had heavy themes of anti-mutant sentiment, and that outside of Spider-Man, the X-related characters made up most of the survivors (until they came back, anyways) and it was told primarily from the X-Men perspective with collected editions marketing it as an X-Men story. Even further, the famous House of M storyline was officially a crossover with the X-Men, New X-Men, Excalibur, Avengers, Fantastic Four, and even the Thunderbolts having parts in it, but because this story mainly affected the X-Men and mutants through the Depopulation Bomb known as M-Day, along with many other changes to the X-Men status quo, this is often forgotten or ignored, instead treated as an X story, especially since the impact outside the X-Men side was either minimal or non-obvious.
- Recent years have had more crossovers despite the idea that Marvel is trying to stiff the X-Men over the Inhumans. "The Hand" (a key part of the Daredevil mythos) have a pretty long association with both Wolverine and Psylocke. note Wolverine had many battles with them when he wound up in Japan after years of Walking the Earth (his ex-lover Mariko Yashida's half-brother Kenuichio Harada was a prominent Hand operative), and Psylocke notably switched bodies at one point with the prominent Hand operative Kwannon after passing through the Siege Perilous. Lastly, the X-Men have had many, many adventures alongside Spider-Man, notably sympathizing with him because of their shared status as Heroes With Bad Publicity who were both distant and remote from the superhero continuity, for the Watsonian reason that they were both emblems of the underdog and the outsider and for the Doylist fact that their titles sold better and were more widely read and known than Captain America and Thor, leave alone Iron Man. They spent so much time in fact, that much of the public even thought that Spidey was a mutant himself for a while.
- Iceman in particular has consistently been a good friend of Spidey since the early days and is considered an ally even independently of the X-Men, mainly because both were junior superheroes. Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends famously had Iceman as the co-star, and made a Power Trio with eventual Canon Immigrant Firestar. Also, Firestar deserves mention, mainly because she's a mutant and has historically been far more involved with Spider-Man's corner and the non-mutant side after being canonized, and didn't join the X-Men until decades later in the 2010s.
- This isn't even getting into other Crisis Crossover-type stories, where they (or at least characters among them) often hold a major role, or things connected to the mythos such as the Savage Land or the Shi'ar Imperium, which routinely get visited by other characters. For what it's worth, there have been more crossovers between the X-Men and the wider Marvel continuity in recent yearsnote such as The Childrens Crusade, which starred the Young Avengers, with the Avengers, the X-Men, and even X-Factor were in the mix, while Scarlet Witch might of had the biggest impact in the entire storyline. Lets not forget Secret Invasion either, where the Avengers and X-Men were both co-stars with more inter-continuity story consequences than before. In the wake of the Avengers vs. X-Men event, the two teams started acting in unison, launching the Uncanny Avengers title. Additionally, Jonathan Hickman's landmark Avengers run saw fan-favorites Sunspot and Cannonball joining the Avengers, alongside Wolverine having already been a member. Speaking of which, Wolverine, the most popular X-Man, has rubbed shoulders with basically every character in the universe having a unique dynamic with a bunch of them, chiefly Captain America (being soldiers who fought side-by-side during World War II) and Spider-Man (being Vitriolic Best Buds with Pete).
- On account of the fact that Spider-Man is Marvel's company mascot and globally a superhero whose fame and Pop-Cultural Osmosis rivals the big two of DC - Superman and Batman - the fact that Spider-Man is a street-level Small Steps Hero wasn't commonly disseminated among the general population at least until the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Unlike Batman and Superman who are in their own shared continuity as famous and renowned as they are in the real world, Spider-Man is the Unpopular Popular Character with a mixed reputation within the superhero continuity. Reed Richards' first impression of Spider-Mannote where Peter begged the Four to bring him into the Fantastic Four (and like the dork that he is, already custom plated a FF style insignia on his costume for his "audition") was marking him down as a potential supervillain. His personality, as a constantly quipping, trash-talker doesn't endear him among his allies (with the exception of Captain America, another Working-Class Hero from New York who's on the modest side as far as super strength goes but actually gets to do "save the world" stuff) , while others found his insect theme creepy. Spider-Man's stories were always local in scale, and he never really gets to "save the world" or so on, doing decently but poorly against Marvel's series-wide villains like Doctor Doom and Thanos.
- On the flip-side, the idea of Spider-Man as the ultimate "Street Level" hero — a Fragile Speedster who while formidable to a normal, is on the low end of the scale for superhumans in general as he is relegated to fighting street level crimes, and on multiple occasions he's gotten his ass handed to him by Badass Normals. While the latter part is technically true, Spider-Man in the comics is much, much more powerful than a non-comic reader might think. True, he's not the strongest physically in the Marvel Universe, but he's still pretty damn strong considering he can land a 200,000 pound plane all by himself, and combine that with speed, reflexes and agility being quite possibly the greatest outside of speedsters, not to mention his spider sense that gives him a massive advantage in combat, and this combination is unbeatable to many when the gloves are off. The part where he has trouble with low-level characters? It's actually due to being Willfully Weak, as he refuses to kill anyone. To put in perspective, The Kingpin has given Spider-Man trouble numerous times in combat. But when Aunt May was shot and nearly killed, he completely loses it and gives Kingpin an effortless and savage beatdown before telling the broken and battered Kingpin that if May dies, so will he — in a What If? where Aunt May died, he tore out Kingpin's heart with his bare hands. Furthermore, he's beaten Wolverine (effortlessly at that) for making insensitive remarks at Mary Jane. In the first Secret Wars he outfought the entire X-Men, and gave Titania such a vicious beating that she avoided coming into contact with him for years. For the record, Titania is as strong as She-Hulk. Finally, he beat Firelord, a character tougher than Thor, when he cut loose and the other Avengers had to stop him from accidentally killing the guynote in fairness, this story is still very controversial in the fandom as an instance of Popularity Power, seeing as how Firelord can casually blow up planets; some fandom-spaces still use "SM-v-FL" as a shorthand for "it might technically be canon but it still doesn't count.". In the 2010s, when Otto Octavius had control of his body, an iconic moment was when he punched Scorpion (a standard and often considered dangerous member of Spider-Man's rogues) hard enough to break his jaw off, and this was by accident. Even Octavius himself was absolutely shocked by how strong he was. To say that Spider-Man is weak would be underselling his abilities. It's not that he's a weak character, it's that he's so Afraid of Their Own Strength that he usually only operates at a fraction of his full power.
- Spidey is often thought of as someone who sticks mainly to their corner of the Marvel Universe, with him often being the lone hero and focus of any given story, and as such he shines best when working alone. As in the case of the X-Men below, the main reason this is so, is because for the longest time he was far more popular and beloved than the likes of Avengers, Iron Man et al, and there was no fan-demand and editorial interest in making him more integrated, and indeed it was in their interests to keep Spider-Man apart. However, even though he does occupy a major corner of his own in the Verse, Spidey is actually quite active with other heroes both within his books and without. While Spidey does have a corner of his own, that doesn't mean he's strictly defined by it and his titles remains a major pillar of the broader Marvel Universe.
- For example, the famous Maximum Carnage storyline had him teaming up with a whole host of heroes to take on Carnage and the other villains, all of whom survived the aftermath. It was also Marvel's biggest selling event title until Civil War (in which he also played a significant role). He's helped out many different teams, even if he wasn't officially a member, such as the Power Pack, the New Warriors, X-Men (even having a stint as a teacher at the Jean Grey School of Higher Learning, despite not being a mutant), the Avengers (as both a reserve and full-fledged member), and the Future Foundation (where he took the place of Johnny Storm as a core member, at Storm's own request in the Video Will after his "death" precisely because Spidey was always so close to them). In fact, he headlined his own series called Marvel Team-Up for a whopping thirteen years, where he'd team up with a different character in each issue.
- The Punisher made his debut in Amazing Spider-Man's series as a villain before becoming a successful spin-off character. Monica Rambeau also made her debut in Amazing Spider-Man Annual #16, while Cloak and Dagger showed up in the pages of The Spectacular Spider-Man and more recently, Jessica Jones was inserted into the MU as a former classmate of Peter's from high school. Characters from other stories have a tendency to drop in on his comics, and the reverse is also true. He's teamed up with Daredevil, Iron Fist, Luke Cage, Moon Knight, Prowler, and much more, and he's had a pretty longstanding friendship with Johnny Storm and an association with the Fantastic Four that goes way back to his first issues and Doctor Doom first showed up outside the pages of Fantastic Four in the pages of ASM with Spider-Man essentially launching Victor's career as a Marvel-wide villain.
- Furthermore, many of Spider-Man's supporting characters have had ties and connections to the broader Marvel verse. J. Jonah Jameson as head of the Daily Bugle often showed up in several Daredevil comics since Ben Urich, star-reporter of that paper is a key Daredevil supporting character, and Phil Sheldon star of Marvels also worked for the Bugle. Liz Allan, Spider-Man's old high school friend, during the period when she was a widow of Harry Osborn, dated Foggy Nelson, Daredevil's closest friend and law partner. Jameson also appears in many other stories, and his son John Jameson used to be part of Captain America's supporting cast. More recently, Flash Thompson, Peter's old bully turned friend, broke out as Agent Venom and appeared in many wider crossover events and was even a member of the Guardians of the Galaxy. Mary Jane Watson likewise has made many cameos in other Marvel titles and events, and was originally Carol Danvers major supporting character in her first three issues, and more recently, joined Stark Industries as Tony's PA in which capacity she made many significant appearances in the Iron Man books and other titles in which Tony crossed over.
- Spidey's extensive cast of villains have also made their presence felt in the wider universe. Rhino has tangled with the Hulk so much that it's shared custody, Kraven has menaced Hulk and Black Panther, Kingpin started as a Spider-Man villain before becoming Daredevil's Arch-Enemy, rogues Electro and Mysterio have also fought DD (the former even being his first supervillain encounter), Sandman spent ten years fighting the Fantastic Four after his Spider-Man debut and in the '90s he actually joined the Avengers after having a Heel–Face Turn (for a while, anyways), the Masters of Evil (enemies of the Avengers) have in fact included Spider-Man villains among the roster (notably one iteration was led by Doctor Octopus), and more recently the Shocker even became a rogue to Breakout Character Kamala Khan. However, none of this can compare to the example below.
- Spidey's Arch-Enemy Norman Osborn (aka the Green Goblin) was built up for over a decade as the Big Bad of the Earth part of the wide Marvel Universe from the mid-'00s to the mid-'10s. During this time, Osborn menaced just about everyone he came across, both directly and indirectly, and he spun off the pages of Spider-Man. In fact, he was even played up as the Shadow Archetype of both Iron Man and Captain America, his Iron Patriot armor reflecting both of them.
openWhat should be done with Blog/ScaramouchesAttic ?
The page itself simply says "Page is currently under construction.", and was last edited in 2017.
It seems that it once had some actual content, but it was written by the creator of the work itself, and no one else. Should it get taken to the cut list, or should an earlier version of it be restored?
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Blog/ScaramouchesAttic
openUnreliable WhatCouldHaveBeen Videogame
Trivia.Fallout New Vegas has two What Could Have Been entries that I can't find any sources supporting. While early demos do show the Strip as all one zone, I can't find anything saying this was the case for Freeside, though there are some Dummied Out Freeside NPCs like beggars and pickpockets.
- The Mysterious Stranger would have teleported in and instantly killed you if you tried to target the Lonesome Drifter in VATS.
- The New Vegas Strip and Freeside used to be whole zones by themselves. Early showcases of the game showed of the whole Strip, and it is also rendered that way in the intro cinematic. Freeside itself was a single massive zone, including a number of no-name generic NPCs and the Mormon Fort having open gates. Both instances were "sectioned off" due to the Xbox 360 and Play Station 3 not having the necessary processing power to render all the NPCs running around the Strip and Freeside without some serious slowdown or even game crashes. The Strip just had two gaudy scrap metal gates separating it into three zones. Freeside, however, got hit harder: fences/gates made from junked buses, the Mormon Fort was made its own zone, and NPCs were cut to reduce the memory problems. Appropriately, there are a pair of mods that convert the Strip and Freeside to their early open area builds.
openYMMV page with many questionable tropes Live Action TV
I just read about the show Shortland Street and decided to look information up here, but when I saw the YMMV page there were many tropes that shouldn't be on that page.
Please look here for yourself: Shortland Street
I also want to know if anyone could clean it up, because I doubt I can do it since I just started with the show and don't know it all too well.
openMisuse + Edit war
In the Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Luna Sea originally added an unfitting example of Suspiciously Similar Substitute, a trope about replacing characters, applied here for non-character stuff (in this case, two locations that just happen to share thematic motifs from other two locations respectively from the first Metroid Prime. I removed the example, explaining why in the edit reason. But then they added the example back, and on top of that they added another unfitting example, which applies the trope improperly with items. See for yourself.
I need permission to remove those unfitting examples, because that troper's actions entered edit war territory.
openShould this be removed from the Gundam YMMV? Anime
I've noticed this particular example while I was browsing:
- Americans Hate Tingle: The Gundam franchise is very unpopular in Brazil, since most of Brazilian anime fans dislike mecha series. The only anime aired in the country was Mobile Suit Gundam Wing and the Mobile Suit Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz OVAs during the beginning of the 2000s in the Cartoon Network, but it was clearly overshadowed by other animations like Dragon Ball Z, Rurouni Kenshin and YuYu Hakusho in the channel. Even the Brazilian fansubs don't have interest on it, most of them don't bother subbing any of the series that came before Mobile Suit Gundam SEED and Mobile Suit Gundam 00.
Speaking as a Brazilian myself, I'd like to clarify some things:
- I really don't know where this supposed mecha stigma came from, even other shows like Code Geass have a solid fanbase in the Otaku community of the country.
- Wing was in fact overshadowed by other animations, but the franchise never aired again in all of Latin America; Seed was planned to air in the country alongside SD Gundam before it was licensed and Wing itself was even revisited by another TV block not affiliated with Cartoon Network.
- All pre-2000 Gundam shows are available and are easy to find thanks to fansubs made by devoted fans, gaining a small but dedicated cult-following in the process. In recent years, the modern Gundam shows are much more popular than their predecessors and are enjoyed by many in the community.
So yeah, It's certainly not "hated" or "very unpopular". This section was noted by another Brazilian troper a few years ago, who had this to say: "As an actual brazilian anime fan, I think that this post is making things sound worse than they actually are. And the "most of series are either not subbed or dropped" part is factually incorrect. Big fansubs groups may have not subbed Gundam anime before Seed, but smaller and specialized groups did it."
Edited by TheMadCr0wopenI Liked It Better When It Sucked possible misuse
On the I Liked It Better When It Sucked page, there are a lot of entries that don't refer to So Bad, It's Good works, or are written in the context of people enjoying the original for unironic reasons. For instance, the entries about the merits of the original graphics for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and Conker's Bad Fur Day don't have anything to due with them being So Bad, It's Good, and while The Transformers is considered So Bad, It's Good, the entry has a lot of unneeded fluff that sounds like it's talking about actual merit. This goes against part of the page which says and I quote: "This is only for fans who honestly felt the original sucked So Bad, It's Good. If the fans didn't think the original sucked, or if they honestly liked features that were removed on their own merits — or if nostalgia means that they just hate change — then that belongs under They Changed It, Now It Sucks! and Nostalgia Filter instead." I would change it myself and I plan to, but first I thought that I should ask you guys first for approval because I feel like going and removing a bunch of entries at once would look bad on my part if I didn't get an ok. Also, am I clear to bold the page that clarifies that it only applies for works where the original work was So Bad, It's Good to reduce misuse?
openHumiliation Conga - Only For Villains?
Is Humiliation Conga only for villains? Because that's what the description seems to be. Tropes Are Flexible though, so I was wondering if it could be used for The Hero to give them sympathy.
Also, does the conga itself have to take place over a short period of time?
Edited by reppuzan

I was perusing the Draconic Abomination page, and noticed the entry for Dragon Project seems a little excessive, particularly in terms of vulgarity. Don't want to come across as a Bluenose Bowdlerizer, so I figured I'd raise the subject here. Here's the entry in question: