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openEdit War
Troper.Accursed Fans has edit warred on Devil, but No God over the Warhammer 40,000 example.
As the history shows
they added a section to the middle of the example about the Emperor that I removed and they later put back. Now while I admit the edit reason I gave wasn't great (I was in a bit of a rush at the time) I did send a custom notifier to them explaining myself betternote and noting that I believe the entire 40k entry should be removed as the description of the trope seems to indicate that good has to exist for it to be an example and as the setting is black vs. grey to black vs. black depending on the edition and writer is shouldn't count, and stating that they edit warred, but they appear to have ignored it (they have edited since), as they have other edit notifiers I have sent them in the past.
I would also note that Troper.Accursed Fans was previously been suspended for edit warring in march over a similar issue involving Warhammer 40,000.
Edited by SebastianGrayopenGenre Turning Point question
I discovered in the edit history for Genre Turning Point that the page once had real life examples, but they were deleted in March 2017 by Nohbody with the edit reason "none of those are trope examples". Despite this, the page is listed under Keep Real Life Examples. While I believe that the examples deleted may not count since there is no "genre" being changed, they were deleted without explanation, and as mentioned the page is indexed under an index that indicates real life examples can stay. What should I do? Should I restore them? Keep them removed? Temporarily restore and then figure out what to do with them? Go through the examples and see which ones are legit, if any? I'm puzzled as to what to do.
The examples in question:
- When Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon with his army rather than surrender to his rivals he made all but inevitable the fall of the Roman Republic and the birth of The Roman Empire. The very shape of Western Europe (and thus by extension some of the shape of the rest of the world) were set from one course to another by one man's personal ambition.
- The Black Death decimated Europe's population in the mid-14th century with repercussions felt for decades. Some of these still felt today, according to various scholars, may have included:
- The foundations of the Protestant Reformation and the weakening of Church authority in general
- A rise in anti-Semitism and other prejudices
- The end of feudal economy and the rise of the middle class: Because laborers and craftsmen were fewer and could therefore demand higher wages, allowing them to accumulate wealth.
- The rise of paper and printing, as lawyers forced to settle a large number of estates began to wish that more of everything was written down, which increased demand for people who could write, which led to people looking for faster ways to produce documents. Eventually, they hit upon the printing press.
- The Agricultural Revolution: In order to increase the efficiency of food production, which the plague had squeezed. Also, great lords realized that running larger farms with hired hands was more efficient than serfdom.
- The Industrial Revolution—Indirectly, as a result of several of the above factors; the accumulation of wealth in the hands of craftsmen (which allowed them to start profit-making businesses that eventually turned into industries), the Protestant Reformation (which encouraged a burst of new thought in all directions, and also led to the establishment of the community of English Dissenters, who it just happened were mostly craftsmen, and whose response to Anglican discrimination—which had the effect of pigeonholing them as craftsmen and merchants—was to invent the modern world), and the Agricultural Revolution (which freed up labor to work in factories when industrialization happened, and also created fabulous wealth for farm-owning nobles, many of whom bankrolled industrial ventures basically because they had nothing better to do with their money).
- People of European ancestry having greater resistance to HIV, which some scientists have linked to antibodies originally developed by people who survived the plague.
- The plague also returned periodically for centuries afterward, leading to boom/bust population cycles which didn't really end until the colonial age.
- King John of England (the real-life king behind the Robin Hood tales) managed to screw things up quite badly in England; botched wars, high taxes, and getting the nation excommunicated for a few years. His frustrated and angered barons united and forced John to sign the Magna Carta (Great Charter). Now the monarchs had to at least be accountable to the nobles. The Magna Carta also established concepts like due process of law being required before stripping a non-serf of land and property, limitations on the king's powers, and a provision where a council of 25 nobiles could overrule the king's decree. It became the first restraints of absolute monarchy in England, and paved the way for the eventual triumph of parliament over monarchy.
Winston Churchill: We owe far more to the vices of John than to the labours of virtuous sovereigns.
- The Fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453 is widely considered by historians to mark the official end of The Middle Ages and the final nail in the coffin of The Roman Empire (the Byzantines always considered themselves to be Romans, referring to their territory as Romania), which had existed for nearly 1500 years if one combines the ruling years of Ancient Rome and the Byzantine Empire together.
- The massive outflow of Greek scholars from Constantinople greatly influenced and accelerated the birth of The Renaissance in Europe.
- The sudden removal of the Byzantine Empire as a buffer-zone between Christian Europe and the Muslim Middle East, as well as the removal of the main overland trade-link between Europe and Asia, led to rapid advancements in warfare and seafaring technology within Europe for the first time in centuries.
- The fact that the Ottomans were now blocking the Silk Road led European navigators to pursue alternative routes to the riches of the Far East, which brings us onto...
- Perhaps most famous of all, Christopher Columbus' discovery of the West Indies in 1492 was The Beginning Of The End for every major civilization in North and South America, along with much of the native populations. At the same time, northern Europe, which had been a cultural backwater for centuries, entered a new era of vast riches and world domination. It triggered the Columbian Exchange, the exchange of crops, goods and people across continents, leading to items such as the potato, cocoa, chocolate and coffee being spread as far as China.
- Though the Black Death may have gotten the ball rolling economically (see above), the Wars of the Roses officially signaled the end of the feudal system in Britain, while also definitively ending three centuries of dominance by The House of Plantagenet. They showed just how much chaos could result from a weak monarch leaving too much power in the hands of landholding nobles guided by petty grudges and ambitions, with a personal quarrel between the Duke of Somerset and the Duke of York gradually spiraling into the most devastating civil war that Britain had ever seen. In an age when the Plantagenet bloodline had become so widespread and diluted that multiple second and third cousins of the King could seize the throne by virtue of being direct descendants of Edward III, it was only a matter of time before the young Henry VI became a pawn of his scheming Lancastrian advisors and his ambitious Yorkist cousins. When the Wars were finally settled by the rise of The House of Tudor, Henry VII and his successors made damn sure that the same thing would never happen again. Under the Tudors, the monarchy's power grew to unprecedented levels, with a well-developed central bureaucracy presiding over far more aspects of public life than ever before.
- The Peace of Westphalia (1648), which ended the Thirty Years' War, originated the modern conception of state sovereignty (including territorial integrity and modern diplomatic relations), not just for the states involved, but all future states as well. It also removed The Pope and the Roman Catholic Church from European politics for good, finishing what the Black Death had started two centuries prior.
- The Protestant Reformation definitively broke the long-unchallenged binary between the Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Eastern Orthodox Church in the East, marking a major milestone in the Western World moving past the old vestiges of the The Roman Empire that endured through Rome and Constantinople's surviving religious institutions. It showed that there were far more ways of interpreting Christianity than anyone could have imagined before, and it challenged the idea that any earthly religious authority—like the Pope or the Ecumenical Patriarch—could have a monopoly on interpreting the word of God for the masses. Once Martin Luther opened the floodgates by founding the Lutheran Church, a host of others denominations followed in short order, including the Calvinists under John Calvin, the Swiss Protestants under Ulrich Zwingli, the Anabaptists under Thomas Müntzer, and the Anglicans under King Henry VIII—all of whom (directly or indirectly) fueled the geneses of the Presbyterians in Scotland, the Puritans in England, and the Baptists and Episcopalians in America. Likewise, the movement spread literacy through the use of the printing press and as per Max Weber, it paved the way for the development of capitalism. The world was never the same again.
- When the 1755 Lisbon earthquake and resulting tsunami and fire devastated the capital of Portugal and left tens of thousands dead, its aftershocks weren't limited to just the physical ones, or even to how it left Portugal's colonial ambitions up in smoke and solidified the power of the prime minister (the Marquis of Pombal's effective response to the earthquake saw the old aristocracy effectively sidelined). The disaster, which struck a devoutly Catholic city on All Saints' Day and left nearly every church (along with about 85% of the city) in ruins, had a tremendous impact on Enlightenment-era European thought that, two centuries later, Theodor W. Adorno compared to the reaction to The Holocaust, shaking the faith of many people in the idea of a just and benevolent god. The Great Lisbon Earthquake has been cited as the birth of atheism, with Voltaire, most notably, using the example of the earthquake in Candide and Poème sur le désastre de Lisbonne to savagely attack the philosophical optimism of his peers.
- The American Revolution (c. 1774-1783) decisively changed international politics forever. It was the first modern democracy, and thus the trope maker for much of what we now think of as Western democracy. It directly or indirectly inspired revolutions for nearly a century and a half (from 1776 to 1918) - in particular the anti-monarchist nature of most of these revolts. It arguably represents the point at which guerilla warfare and firearms first met. And finally, it was the first time that an imperial European power was defeated by a non-European one. It was also the first example of a nation dominated by people of obvious European extraction, speaking a language from Europe, nevertheless declaring themselves a separate, non-European nation, paving the way for revolutions in Haiti, Ireland and independence movements across the world.
- The French Revolution put an end to one of the oldest monarchies in Europe and left France as a veritable laboratory of political experimentation for the next century (the only monarch afterwards who tried to pretend that things hadn't changed that much did not last long), eventually making it into a solidly Republican country. The Revolution's army reforms also changed the notion of warfare as per Carl von Clausewitz and marked the first modern "total war". The Revolution also proved, albeit briefly and imperfectly, that a democracy can govern over a large area of land, that an army of Conscription and meritocratic ranks can not only defend itself against professional aristocratic armies but that they can win wars and take territories as well. Before the Revolution, the main argument against republican forms of government and democracy was that it only applied to small city states and small populations.Even Jean-Jacques Rousseau (the guiding spirit behind the Revolution) agreed with this but the Revolution, regardless of later contradictions and reversals, put a permanent dent in that belief.
- The US Constitution's Bill of Rights and the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, both of which were first drafted in 1789, are the Trope Codifiers for the modern concepts of liberal democracy and human rights. While some of those rights had appeared in the Magna Carta in the fourteenth century (though many of them had previously suddenly lapsed halfway across the Atlantic for British colonial subjects), the 1789 documents took what were historically viewed as peculiar customs of the English (and Welsh and Scots and Irish, but nobody on the Continent paid any attention to those) and turned them into universal rules. The American Bill of Rights and French Declaration of Rights declared the rights they defended to be inherent, "natural" human rights, with which the state could not legitimately interfere, rather than being the merely traditional "Rights of Englishmen" guaranteed by Magna Carta.
- Inverted with the Revolutions of 1848, "the Spring of Nations" described by historian G. M. Trevelyan as the the turning point where "history failed to turn". He and later historians note that the general failure of the events and the triumph of the repressive governments to put it down pointed out the greater strength of autocratic nations to police the population. But at the same time, the revolution did force many of these nations to move on a path of reform.
- In Germany, this event led to what some historians call Sonderweg (though it is disputed and contentious). In this view, Germany launched on a "Special Path" towards modernization where feudal structures and values were synthesized with modern ideals, leading to the rise of Otto von Bismarck who changed and organized Germany "from above" to prevent revolution "from below". This in turn paved the way for greater authoritarianism in German society, finally reaching its climax in the rise and fall of the Third Reich.
- The American Civil War turned the American economic and political map upside down. The Southern states that made up the Confederacy, which had once been the wealthiest region in the country, became a backwater for a century following the destruction of the exploitative chattel slavery system, which had been the key pillar of their economy; no longer could the Southern gentry lash and beat their way into prosperity on the backs of their slaves. The end of slavery, likewise, planted the seed for the newly-freed African American community to establish their independence, setting the stage for the Great Migration
and, later, the Civil Rights Movement, though in the short term, unfortunately, it led to a racist backlash
from both Southern whites who resented their loss of status and Northern whites who feared competition from black labor. Beyond slavery and race relations, the example that had been made of the Confederacy firmly established the supremacy of the federal government over the states and the idea of the US as a singular nation rather than a collection of such, up to and including a shift in language
; before the war, the US was most commonly described in plural terms ("the United States are"), while afterwards, it was described in singular terms ("the United States is"). Finally, the industrial might that the Union used to overpower the Confederacy laid the groundwork for the industrial wars of the 20th century, which would be fully realized in World War I (see below).
- The Hurricane of 1900 that struck Galveston, Texas sent it into a long decline while turning Houston into a booming port town. NASA and oil would finish the job. The construction of the Houston Ship Channel played a significant role in the shift as well.
- The Great San Francisco Earthquake (1906) for California. Before the quake, San Francisco was the largest city on the West Coast, and Los Angeles' population was less than a million, nowhere near the second largest city in the United States. The quake and the Hollywood boom were instrumental in shifting the population southward.
- A second turning point in The '80s came when San Francisco started attracting computer technology firms, partly due to Apple, and partly due to Berkeley and Stanford's top-notch computing laboratories. Then the Internet went mainstream, and the San Francisco Bay Area is now considered a mecca for computing startups and cutting edge tech. On the downside, the split between the sheltered, highly paid techies and the lower-paid non-technology workers has led to skyrocketing rents, shuttered landmarks, and a nasty cultural divide.
- World War I. Although the American Civil War was arguably the first "industrial" war, World War I was pivotal (and traumatic) for how it oversaw the realization of a total war fueled by industrial production and weaponry. Beyond even military technology and tactics, World War I brought about the collapse of the great autocratic multinational empires that had once dominated Europe's history - Russia, the Ottoman Empire, and Austria-Hungary - and made representative democracies based around a nation-state representing one historical/ethnic group the ideal if not the norm (with a couple of big exceptions...). Then, World War I and its aftermath was key in raising nationalist resentments and economic hardships that would nourish the Fascist movement. At the same time it brought about not only the collapse of Tsarist Russia, but the failure of the democratic Russian state that immediately succeeded it and the rise of the Soviet Union, transforming the driving force in world history from the competition between Europe's colonial empires to the struggle between democratic-capitalist, Fascist, and Communist ideologies. Finally, the war gave the world the League of Nations, the doomed but still important precursor to the United Nations.
- The fall of the Ottoman Empire changed, overnight, the cultural and regional landscape of the Middle East. The division of territories between France and England, the rise of Arab Nationalism and other issues of the time, directly paved the way for much of the later conflicts in the region that continue to the present day.
- The Statute of Westminister in 1931, which redefined the relationship between the United Kingdom, the British Monarchy, and the various dominions which had once been colonies, marked the start of the peaceful end of the most widespread empire in human history as The British Empire became the (British) Commonwealth. The Suez Crisis of 1956 and the intervening period of decolonization and independence movements, marked the fading of England as the world's pre-eminent superpower, giving way to America and USSR.
- After World War II (1937/1939-1945) the world system of international relations was restructured drastically, with a new emphasis on not just sovereignty (already codified by the Peace of Westphalia) but (legal) equality between states. The old alliances of Europe were finished (World War I had previously shown how destructive they could be) in favour of new ones like NATO and the United Nations. It also discredited Anti-Semitism (at least in the West) to a great extent, and the led directly to the creation of The European Union. It also saw the end of American isolationism and saw the drastic increase of the US military in all branches.
- Once the world got used to the end of World War II, the Cold War changed things all over again by showing people a very new kind of warfare. The United States and the Soviet Union emerged as superpowers and became the bitterest of rivals, but both of them eventually possessed enough nuclear weapons between them to bring about The End of the World as We Know It. The result? Traditional warfare between the two suddenly wasn't an option—leading to the age of proxy wars and the rise of the intelligence services. In short order, the American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) was formed in 1947, with the Russian Komitet gosudarstvennoy bezopasnosti (KGB) following in 1954, followed by three decades of up-and-down tensions as NATO and the Eastern Bloc backed competing factions in nearly every country that wasn't already allied with either of them. It seemed inevitable that the standoff would ultimately climax with World War III. But then...
- On the 13th of September, 1989, a non-Communist government was formed by the Polish parliament, and the Soviet Union declined to force them to do otherwise. This kicked off The Great Politics Mess Up: within weeks, the entity variously called the Eastern Bloc and the Warsaw Pact, the great enemy everyone had been planning to fight in World War III... simply went away. Just over a year later Germany was reunited, and a year after that the Soviet Union itself finally went into the dustbin of history. Western democracies were stunned to discover that the Cold War was over, had never turned hot, and they'd won.
Austin Powers: Oh, smashing, groovy, yay capitalism!
- There's a reason why the combined oral contraceptive pill, first approved by the FDA in 1960, is so often referred to as just "the Pill". Contraception had existed since the dawn of civilization, but the Pill was far more effective than the crude condoms and diaphragms of the past — and more importantly, it gave women full agency in whether or not to get pregnant. It played a large role in the emerging sexual revolution of The '60s, which in turn kicked into overdrive the already-bubbling second wave of the feminist movement and the genesis of the organized LGBT rights movement. A vast number of the social changes of the '60s and '70s can be directly attributed to this one little pill.
- This article
in Time makes the case that an epidemic of rubella in 1964-65 played a large role in the legalization of abortion in the United States and Western Europe, perhaps almost as much as the sexual revolution. Rubella is a fairly mild illness in most people, but pregnant women who catch it often give birth to infants with severe birth defects. As a result, when the epidemic broke out, it led to thousands of 'respectable' (i.e. white, married, middle-class) women getting 'therapeutic' abortions to terminate pregnancies that had a high likelihood of producing babies that would suffer a lifetime of medical problems, if they survived long at all. This effectively broke the stigma that had surrounded abortion, which was previously viewed as something that was done by women who were poor, unwed, and 'deviant'. Less than ten years later, the Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade legalized abortion across the United States, and similar laws were passed throughout Western Europe.
- The terrorist attacks of September 11 brought about The War On Terror and redefined the relationship between the U.S. government and the Muslim world. In addition, it also triggered a series of game-changing reforms in the U.S. intelligence community.
openWould these count as examples?
The trope is Eldritch Transformation:
- Naruto: Kaguya Ōtsutsuki merged with the God Tree in order to become the Ten-Tailed Beast.
- Neon Genesis Evangelion:
- The Evangelion units were created with the ultimate goal of facilitating this, being cyborg clones of the first Angel, Adam. The Classified Information included in Neon Genesis Evangelion 2 clarifies that SEELE intended to use the Human Instrumentality Project in order to attain godhood by merging themselves into an Evangelion unit, but Gendo Ikari intended to hijack their plan in order to reunite with his wife Yui.
- Evangelion Unit-01 was created from the lower half of the second Angel Lilith's body, with it being implied that Yui Ikari deliberately merged with it to throw a wrench into SEELE's plans and to be able to protect her son from what was coming.
- In End of Evangelion, Rei Ayanami — herself a half-Angel clone of Yui Ikari containing the soul of Lilith — merges with Adam and Lilith to become a planet-sized Humanoid Abomination with the power to annihilate all life on Earth.
openCharacters/TheFuzzyPrincess
Right. So! On the 19th, I removed an "example" of UsefulNotes.Bisexual from Characters.The Fuzzy Princess as Useful Notes are not tropes. A day later, Mark Lungo added it back, knowingly starting an edit war over something incorrect (though he at least asked for a better solution). I only noticed this on the 22nd, so I sent him a PM restating that Useful Notes were not tropes, and that the character's bisexuality should be mentioned in her character description if it must be mentioned.
He does a burst of edits the following (aka this) morning. The characters page remains untouched, and my PM goes without a response.
So I did it myself, once again removing the bunk example and instead mentioning her being bi in her character description. I have been told multiple times that cleanup edits do not constitute as an Edit War, so I thought it was fine... but then I realized this could easily be interpreted as a Single-Issue Wonk, so I'm making this query ahead of time to clear things up.
openRegarding Sister Floriana and the case of stolen artwork.
So on this ATT thread
, there was a discussion regarding a now-permabanned troper's problematic edits which included alt-right apologism among other things. One of the things mentioned is a fanfic called Sister Floriana, and upon further investigation, there was the issue that the work was stealing art from a Japanese Twitter artist named Diva
, whom neither gave the fanfic writer permission to use their art, nor do they endorse the content of said fanfic.
Well, after taking a look myself, I found that Diva's artwork does actually belong to a work. It's called Little Nuns, and it's a webcomic of sorts which deals with the Moe hijinx of said nuns. It's very wholesome and does not contain any political stuff behind the scenes that the fanfic contains.
What are the policies for works stealing artwork directly from other works? Because Sister Floriana is sounding alarm bells over potential violation of rules on principle.
open Can someone fix the Tofie page? Music
The page for electronic musician Tofie is a complete mess. Half the tropes are misused and are seemingly only there for the creator to gush over how attractive they think the artist is, one of them is a ZCE, and the page isn't even indexed. I'd do it myself, but I have no idea where to start.
Edited by PhysicalStaminaopenExamples that Do not Seem to Fit
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DeconstructionFic/CitadelOfTheHeart
So I have been reading this page, and I am not sure that some of the examples really come off as Deconstructions
For example:
"Sword Art Online: Special Edition's Kazuto is a slacker who appreciates reality more than gaming, and believes staying at the Level 90 status he was in the actual game wouldn't be anything he'd have to worry about soon. Then shit begins to hit the fan and he and the others being to hastily take time out of their real life matters to level grind to deal with the associated threats at hands. Considering Kazuto was already rather high in level by MMO standards, he's shown later to not be far off from the (initial) cap in how high he had progressed so shortly."
- Sword Art Online: Special Edition's Kazuto is a slacker who appreciates reality more than gaming, and believes staying at the Level 90 status he was in the actual game wouldn't be anything he'd have to worry about soon. Then shit begins to hit the fan and he and the others being to hastily take time out of their real life matters to level grind to deal with the associated threats at hands. Considering Kazuto was already rather high in level by MMO standards, he's shown later to not be far off from the (initial) cap in how high he had progressed so shortly.
- Ryōtarō was only Level 8 when the story began. By the time Grandis reveals himself as a potential new threat within the next few days Level 154. What does Nobuyuki, of all people, have to say about the revelation?
These examples do not explain to me how something is being deconstructed (and honestly, in my opinion, do not come off that way, especially the second example)
"Some of the stuff from Code Lyoko becomes Ascended Fridge Horror because some of the nightmarish qualities of the show are given completed context. Project Carthage? An Ultimate Lifeform in the form of Mirror M that was created to be used against the Nazis in WWII. The Digital Sea? A weapon gone horribly to try and eliminate Mirror M twice. The fact that death cannot be reversed by the Return to the Past? Even Mirror M doesn't know that one considering he flat out admits he has no idea who the people even were that he was told he killed because he flat out can't remember they even existed..."
As even this example states, this does not seem to be Deconstruction but rather Ascended Fridge Horror. Or at least Cerberus Retcon
"Solgaleo and Lunala frequently have their armored bodies clipped and regenerated as to farm valuable materials necessary to craft armor that is designed to withstand the extreme environments of the Ultimorian Multiverse, since even the Ultimorian Deities themselves have major issues surviving there anymore. Grandis flat out admits that had Solgaleo and Lunala never existed nobody would've been able to go through there or into that place ever again."
This... feels nothing like what Deconstruction is supposed to be
- In terms of non-canon installments, Diary of an Analog introduces an antagonistic Alphamon known as Lady Sigma. However, this same OC Alphamon also exists in the main continuity. One might expect that there is a deliberate case of Adaptational Villainy applied to Lady Sigma in Diary of an Analog. In reality, there is actually no change to the overall characterization of Lady Sigma here. The only true difference in both canon and non-canon depiction is the fact the latter has actual free will as opposed to the canon version which has a heavily applied Restraining Bolt.
And this... well... it also does not feel like the trope.
Admittedly, though, from what I have heard, there seems to be a lot of debate on what exactly counts as a Deconstruction Fic. But I feel like this page could be given a look on if all the examples it holds at least fits what is the basic idea of Deconstruction Fic
Pls stop calling everything Harsher In Hindsight
openRequesting assistance with cleaning up the Series/BigBrother pages Live Action TV
So... I'm not sure this is the place to bring this up (I don't use forums much if ever), but I've been meaning to for a while now...
I edit for the show Survivor a lot, and someone brought up the point that you aren't really supposed to bring real life into reality tv shows.
This is a bit of an issue where Big Brother is concerned. I am mainly referring to the U.S versions, as they are the bulk of what's discussed.
On top of that, a lot of the entries are what people call... bad. Many entries are blatantly written during the season, with tense not being updated in the slightest, and a wholeeeeeee lotta entries are just wrong, particularly audience reactions.
I'd fix this myself but
1) I do not watch or even have the capability of watching Big Brother, and am restricted to what the wiki + internet will tell me (which is not all that much) + what is blatantly wrong (which is a lot).
2) New stuff keeps getting added and I can't keep up.
3) Some of the stuff that sounds too ridiculous and/or conspiratorial to be factually accurate is actually correct. For example, these:
- Creator's Pet: Frankie of 16. They even delayed a challenge for a couple of hours to save him from elimination.Broken Base: Is Big Brother 21 a good season? Due to the unique combination of having one of the worst pre-jury sessions in the history of the show, along with a great jury phase where nearly every pre-jury villain got what was coming to them week after week, only to end with the season's unofficial heroes getting evicted just before the finale for the season's Manipulative Bastard to win, and then promptly get called out on his racist behavior... yeah, Big Brother 21 is polarizing, to say the least.
To give an idea of some of the issues happening here, I'm gonna post some images.

- Just blatant misuse here, though I do wonder where it goes (Julie Chen is the show's host)Click if you need to see the transcript Big "OMG!": A few days before Double Eviction night, CBS Chairman Les Moonves - Julie Chen's husband - was fired in the wake of several accusations of sexual harassment against him. At the conclusion of DE night, Julie signed off using her married surname for the first time in the show's history. Within the hour, Twitter exploded.

- This is somehow an Adorkable entryClick if you need to see the transcript Raven is very lovable and dorky and she's also the type to get easily excited over things. She shows to be enthusiastic and perky come every eviction vote with Julie. Raven was also the one who wanted temporary tattoos after the "Inked & Evicted" challenge ended. Her showmance partner Matt chose a temptation where he was made to dress as a ballerina. Raven is a dance teacher, so, naturally, after the challenge ends, he gave his tutu for her to wear for fun. However, her adorable personality is later on tainted and viewed in a more negative light as she reveals that underneath her cutesy persona, there lies a very nasty and violent personality. She's not as cute when she's bullying people or exploding in anger at others. The fact that she constantly embellishes stuff about her real life does not make her the least bit endearing.

- Under Critical DissonanceClick if you need to see the transcript Season 20. Fans love it because it's gotten back to unpredictable gameplay, but there's a lot of ego in the house this season and controversial behavior both on the televised episodes and especially on the live feeds.

- Under Never Live It DownClick if you need to see the transcript Averted - Jade Goody would have never lived down the bullying of Shilpa Shetty in Celebrity Big Brother or her stints on the previous Big Brothers if she were still alive. Which is, in hindsight... very saddening. Goody's vile behavior was punished on the most extreme level- her body withered and developed terminal cervical cancer. She spent one month married to fellow houseguest Jack Tweed. And what makes this so eerie is that Goody developed this cancer when she appeared on the Indian version of Big Brother, Bigg Boss... after she previously harassed an Indian actress... two days into the playing.....almost as though she fell victim to a spiteful Indian curse coming onto that show.

- Deleted this example of The Scrappy already, but it's a worth posting as an example because it has pretty much everything you shouldn't do.Click if you need to see the transcript Swaggy C is hated for being an arrogant douche 90% of the time, and showmancing Bayleigh 10% of the time. As soon as that guy opened his mouth he quickly became one of the most disliked African American contestants in a VERY long time. Though like Rachel he did get some woobie points after revealing his backstory where his mom left him at three years old, and his dad died when he was in high school. He even got a Take That, Scrappy! from Julie Chen who showed him his intro video showing he didn't want to be seen as the jerky, smug, alliance leader. He's also a sore loser given that he refuses to talk to Tyler the one who orchestrated his backdoor on the outside.
And thennnnn there's the Character pages, which consist of pretty much everything the viewers want them to.
I seriously have no idea what goes into character pages normally, but I'm pretty sure it ain't any of this.

- (Also contains speculation and assumptions)Click if you need to see the transcript Too Dumb to Live: Why did Derrick choose to become aligned so close with Cody? Because Cody's too stupid to think Derrick could possibly be a threat. He's thought of pretty much no major moves by himself. To wit: Cody won an early Head of Household. He used it to target Brittany, who had no intention of getting him out. He never stopped to question whether or not she'd actually target him. Joined in on voting out a lot of people who would have taken him further in the game like Christine and Nicole. Not once stopped to think that Derrick had never faced the block until the final 50 minutes of the game, missing the obvious red flag of that and how he was just following Derrick's word. When confronted with the chance to bring Victoria, who would have gotten him a guaranteed win, to the finals, he chose to take Derrick. Guess who won?

- The What An Idiot page for this show is somehow nicer than the character page.Click if you need to see the transcript Idiot Hero: Cody comes across as one of the dumber and less intelligent houseguests of the season. He has proven time and time again that he is not smart in terms of strategy and he strongly depends on Derrick in the strategic department. Cody won the Final HOH of the season, which meant that he was able to choose or decide who he wanted to take to the Final 2 with him. His options were either the biggest threat and most dangerous player in the game yet his closest ally and friend (Derrick) or the most useless, terrible player in the game who is considered to be the ultimate floater who got dragged to the end but whom Cody doesn't personally like (Victoria). Who does Cody ultimately end up choosing to take to the Final 2 with him? That's right. DERRICK. Cody actually took Derrick, the most dangerous player in the entire game, to the Final 2, somewhat feeling confident that he could beat him, instead of actually taking Victoria, the ultimate goat, someone whom he 100% knows he could have beaten. When it came time for the jury to ask the two of them questions, Cody was both shocked and surprised to hear how the jury really viewed him, which was basically as Derrick's loyal lapdog or puppy. It was at that point that Cody realized that he made a half a million dollar mistake and realized that he had no shot at beating Derrick. Cody ended up losing to Derrick in a near unanimous 7-2 jury vote. Cody, did anyone tell you that Big Brother isn't about loyalty when you get to the Final 3 and even more, the Final 2? You're in a game to win $500,000! What. an. idiot.

- Click if you need to see the transcript Bait the Dog: Frankie appeared as though he would be a likeable, upbeat and happy gay houseguest. Turns out that he is really extremely narcissistic, hateful, vile, attention seeking, and self absorbed. Shouldn't we have all remembered Andy from last season?


- Click if you need to see the transcript Jerkass: Mixed with Bait the Dog - it starts off as a nice and well-mannered house, but once Paul enters the fray, all hell breaks loose. It also rivals BB 15's rotten apple cast. Big Brother 15 gave us bigot city, Big Brother 19 gives us Spoiled Brat city mixed with Crazytown. All the thoroughly nice people except for Kevin (and arguably Mark) are gobbled up before the game reaches the halfway point. So many of them are gonna have to go into hiding post-season and freeze out their detractors on social media. If your name isn't Cameron, Megan (Public service announcement: please don't harass the PTSD sufferer, or you're scum), Jillian, Dominique, Ramses, or Kevin, you gunna get it!

- Good lord this is long...Click if you need to see the transcript The Bully: Many of the houseguests used intimidation tactics and bullying to further their games. But this had more to do with having a group or mob mentality more than anything else. Houseguests such as Paul, Alex, Christmas, Josh, Cody, Jessica, and Raven had no problem partaking in the bullying of other houseguests which caused a lot of animosity and tension to rise in the house. Paul was the centrepiece of pretty much all of the bullying in the house as he was the one who was encouraging and inciting it for the most part. His targets were primarily Cody and Jessica, but he would also use other houseguests such as Josh to also bully them as well. Cody and Jessica bullied people such as Christmas, Alex, Paul, and Josh at various points in the game. Cody verbally attacked and physically threatened Paul after he had nominated him in Week 5. Cody also bullied Josh in Week 6 that he was going to physically beat up Josh outside of the house and make his life a living Hell. Jessica also did her fair share of bullying when she humiliated Josh in front of everyone after not voting to keep Jillian by calling him a crybaby victim. Josh ended up crying hysterically afterwards and the other houseguests had to comfort him. Jessica also personally attacked Josh numerous times by fat shaming him (calling him fat ass, widdle-waddle, fat f-ck, etc) and insulting his intelligence by calling him a moron and the dumbest person she's ever met. This also resulted in Josh crying and the houseguests having to comfort and support him. Christmas also did her fair share of bullying but most of it was towards Cody and Josh. She attacked Cody by calling him a disgraceful marine and questioning has military service. And Christmas would also act as a Big Sister Bully to Josh whenever he ended up doing something that she didn't like or approve of. Alex bullied people like Jessica, Cody, Elena and Kevin unnecessarily. She constantly bashed them behind their back and antagonized them by starting fights and conflicts with them. Josh also frequently resorted to using intimidation and bullying towards other houseguests such as Cody, Mark, Elena, Kevin, Jessica. He has personally attacked all of them, insulted them and has resorted to banging pots and pans in their faces in order to torment them all while singing a circus tune. Raven also got into the mob mentality of bullying when she yelled and attacked Jessica by calling her endless derogatory names and consistently cursing at her and Cody during the house fight that took place in Week 5. At some point, everyone has come across as a bully and this is definitely a season where bullying took centre stage in the game. The last recent season to showcase bullying to this strength was Big Brother 15.
openEdit war about Ultimate Punisher
The character page for the comic book "The Ultimates" here has an entry about Punisher. There was an entry that said "This version of the Punisher doesn't have any of his 616 counterpart's self-control and moral compass, which leads to him being constantly at odds with the Ultimates and Spider-Man." It was added by Good Gamer 14 as Anti-Villain, and then changed by Chrononaut 70 to Adaptational Villainy.
I removed it as misuse. The Punisher has been changed very little (if at all) between original and adaptation. In both cases we talk about a cold and stoic vigilante that kills petty criminals with no remorse and with extreme prejudice. The only "self-control" and "moral compass" is that he only kills criminals and not innocent people; again, that is true to both versions. Still, this put him at odds with heroes with a Thou Shalt Not Kill code... again, in both versions.
Good Gamer 14 added it again, this time saying this: "This Punisher is way more insane than his 616 counterpart, with him being introduced as a raving psycho during Ultimate Spider-Man. This became more notable when he killed his 616 counterpart during Secret Wars (2015)." Oh, that changes everything! Ultimate Punisher killed the Punisher of another universe! But wait... the original killed three knock-offs of himself in Welcome Back, Frank, and recently tried to kill the Cosmic Ghost Rider (a Frank Castle of another timeline, who was turned into a Ghost Rider, an herald of Galactus and a servant of Thanos and loads of other crazy stuff) when he knew that there was another Frank Castle in town. I would say "again, in both versions", but it's getting repetitive.
openWrong trope namespace?
While cleaning up a work, I run into an entry on the main page called Associated Composer. The trope description says that it's a subtrope of a Trivia trope, and the trope itself talks about behind-the-scenes work.
By all rights, it should be Trivia, but instead it's on the "Main" namespace.
Edited by LermisopenEdit War; self-reporting
Self reporting that ~St Fan and I have gotten into an Edit War (specifically on Fishbowl Helmet, but probably on others as well). I'm crosswicking examples from a Magazine, so I checked Media Categories, which doesn't have a category which fits, so I created a folder based on the namespace. Checking the history because it feels familiar, I find that St Fan has been changing the folders to say Print Media, which also isn't on Media Categories, but encompasses Comic Books and Literature in addition to Magazines.
So wiki consensus; which folder name is the correct one to use? Which one should be added to Media Categories?
openDoes this qualify as a TropeBreaker Film
Upon rewatching The Mist, I've realised something. The entire premise of the evil cult that forms through the story and preaching of their leader hinge almost entirely on the fact the story is set in place with Protestant majority and the concept of predestination is not only a tenant, but actively used, both for the story itself and the in-story cult. If the story was set in any other background, the entire premise of the cult as "God will only save a handful of chosen ones, and everyone not worthy will go straight to hell, so prove your worth" falls flat on its face, because it just won't work out if you don't, say, have the story set in Maine.
But does it qualify if the location or social background of the story was changed as a Trope Breaker? I was thinking about this exact same story playing out in my own country, which is Catholic, and the type of person that's best described as a local equivalent of a fundie. And they would preach completely different things - assuming they wouldn't just blame it on Jews, then simply pray in the corner to pass time, which would be far more likely than anything else.
openTheoretically infinite game troping
I've been editing AI Dungeon 2 lately, and the game is almost entirely AI-generated. I'm only troping what the AI outputs, and not any of my actions or such. For examples, see Shaped Like Itself and Mundane Made Awesome. Since this is a theoretically infinite game, is this okay? Should it be restricted to only common habits that the AI has?
openBan Evader
I have reason to suspect that The Master Chand
is ScumBagMan
. He focuses on many of the same works (Catherine, Mega Man, Xexyz, Godzilla, Mass Effect, and Star Trek) and the Unintentionally Unsympathetic example he added to The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening is suspiciously similar to the one Scum Bag Man added back in 2019. Compare.
Scum Bag Man's example: "One may forgive it for not saving the Nightmares, but more than a little harsh that it lets even those had nothing to do with their schemes die as well. Leaving the guy who saves him stranded in the ocean and clinging to driftwood isn't particularly nice either."
The Master Chand's example: "You can forgive him for letting the Nightmares die, self-preservation motives or not, but the general residents of the island are harder to overlook. There's also the issue of leaving the guy who just saved his bacon stranded in the ocean clinging to driftwood."
Edited by SammettikopenIs there a way of removing an ATT thread?
My last thread was... embarrassing and I'm feeling pretty bad about asking in the first place, since it ended up seeming like I was requesting people edit a page I could do myself. I've had a clean history here and I don't want that affecting me.
openJerks Are Worse Than Villains- Order Of The Stick
Found this massive rambly example on Jerks Are Worse Than Villains and I'm, uh...not sure what to do with it.
- Author Rich Berlew deconstructs this trope more than a few times in The Order of the Stick. The main example is that with Xykon, the series' Big Bad. While he has plenty of humorous line and charismatic (appropriately enough, he's an epic-level Sorcerer and thus, would have high Charisma), the author works to ensure that he never becomes a Draco in Leather Pants or Laughably Evil. For Xykon, it's the fact that at his core, he's just an older and undead version of that sort of creepy kid who always derived sadistic pleasure from ripping wings off of flies or frying ants with a magnifying glass. He just now applies the same to a much broader group because of his power, relishes in being evil and has no standards in it (outside of engaging in a physical relationship with a living being, though that's because he's not a "digusting biophiliac" and thus more a matter of "grossness" than moral quandry). He discusses this in Start of Darkness, which served as his and Redcloak's backstories:
Rich Burlew: Writing a story centered around your main antagonist is sort of difficult, because you risk "devillainifying" them. Yes, I just made that word up. What I mean though, is that once an audience has read all about a character's life, with all of their personal struggles and trials and tribulations and such, it's more difficult to see the character as the Big Bad. My challenge here was to tell the story of Xykon's life without making Xykon even slightly sympathetic. I mean, he's wholly and unapologetically Evil, but more to the point, he's kind of a dick.
- Miko Miyazaki plays with this, as part of an experiment with Berlew on whether he could make a Lawful Good paladin an antagonist to the group. He does so by her being a Well-Intentioned Extremist, who's extensive devotion has led her to becoming isolated from most of everyone (her only friend is her steed Windtriker) which just leads her to focus only on her mission. She dies a fallen Paladin who's inteferrence was a large blow to the good guys and the founding spirit of her order tells her that she did not earn her redemption, but her attempt at something means she might reunite with Windstriker. She manages to have some touching last words before dying.
- General Tarkin meanwhile was made to be her Foil. He is shown to be a Crazy-Prepared Genre Savvy Lawful Evil individual who presents himself as a Noble Demon and shares many of the endearing similarties as his son, Elan does. However, he is still a villan and it becomes clear that he's a very selfish and self-centered individual who's morality runs more on using tropes in a traditional sense. He has trouble accepting he isn't in charge. He shows little to no remorse when he kills his other son in Nale, who he raised to be villainous, though he also notes he did it to avenge his best friend Malack and Nale's own pride did him in there because he had to be dumb enough to brag about it. Then he goes off the deep end and shows how ruthless he is to force Elan into what he thinks the proper roles should be and he's disregarded as such an Arc Villain rather than the Big Bad he thinks he is. While Miko is introduced disdainfully yet there is tragedy in her parting, Tarkin is introduced affably and with good reputation, but by the end, his igoble defeat where he is left impotent is a large Catharsis Factor.
- Tsukiko may be this too. Appearing first in March 2007, she is a Parody Sue with plenty of Common Mary Sue Traits: Heterochromatic eyes, great beauty, skimpy clothing, unusually skilled for her young age, Japanese name meaning "moon child", believing she was oppressed (mainly because of her necrophilia). Given how she came out when Twilight was at its peak (just before the films though when the books were being completed), the implications are there. She shows advancements toward Xykon, little respect toward Redcloak (though given how she was initially decent with him and he brushed her off when she notified she was employed before leaving her to be killed by his chlorine elemental, not surprising in retrospect) and no one misses her when she's gone, except the Monster in the Darkness, who laments that all she wanted was someone to care for her and the fact no one did added to the tragedy. Berlew notes her creation of undead who will do what she wants and say what she wants to hear is a way to stay in her own litle world anod have to not deal with others. This was the result of her being hurt by a lot of people in the past.
Indentation issue aside, it bills itself as a "deconstruction", but this is YMMV.
Most of this seems to be added by DVB.
Edited by WarJay77openIssue notifier link.
I sent a troper a grammar issue notifier a few days ago, and they just messaged me back that the included link didn't work. I followed the link myself and found that yeah, it leads to a 404 error.
Edited by SammettikopenHostile edit reasons from troper. Videogame
On 1/01 Mr Heroes added the following meme to the Fate/Grand Order meme page:
- Muramasa is ShirouExplanation While he takes Shirou's form, Muramasa isn't Shirou. A running gag is having Muramasa mistaken/called Shirou, which is popular with fan artists.
On 1/04, Rebel Falcon removed it with an unusually hostile edit reason spread across a few minutes:
- "For the last time, Muramasa is Shiro. Muramasa is a Pseudo-Servant using Shiro as his host, and his bio quite literally says that Shiro's personality is the dominant one. He doesn't simply look like Shiro, he is Shiro."
- Saying Muramasa isn't Shiro is like saying Ishtar isn't Rin, or Jaguar Warrior isn't Taiga, or Ganesha isn't Jinako. It's literally their bodies and personalities, its just some have themselves in the drivers seat, some have the spirit, and some fuse together. Bottom line though, Muramasa is fucking Shiro Emiya.
Now in the first instance, this was done because it appears Rebel may have submitted their edit early, cutting off the message as the first of three edits has this edit reason: For the last time, ''Muramasa is Shiro".
However, the third entry was made after the second, more detailed one, and was close to ten minutes later. The meme itself is probably fine being removed but the edit reason is very hostile and leaves me concerned since this is something I've noticed seems to be a recent trend of there's.
For example, on the RWBY page, they readded an entry on 1/03 that was removed with the following edit reason: "Don't remove shit without giving a reason."
I've not had much interaction with Rebel except for once but I wanted to mention it since this hostility is concerning. Not to suspend them concern, more so just a "Hey, everything okay?" kind of concern.
Edited by keyblade333openEdit Warring on YMMV/Overlord2012 Anime
Leonidaz made some edits to the Overlord (2012) page on roughly 1/12.
- Memetic Badass: Ainz Ooal Gown is regarded as one of the most overpowered, invincible and badass villains and protagonists in Isekai history. An unusual case in that Ainz is indeed invencible and in-universe everybody regards him as the ultimate superior being, but in reality Ainz is far from being the unbeatable badass everyone thinks he is, he is just lucky to always meet foes weaker or dumber than him.
- Rooting for the Empire: It's rather hard to root for Ainz and the rest of the gang when they act like your typical Fantasy JRPG villains. The fact that they easily steamroll through any obstacle or foe, all the while acting over the top arrogant and snide at the other races and people around them does not help matters. You WISH the antagonist of the arc would actually smack the smirks right off of their faces just for a change of pace (though a bunch of them, such as the Eight Fingers, are even worse than them). The Tomb of Nazarick's over the top entrance and sadistic subjugation of the Lizardfolk (a peaceful community they went to war with just as an "experiment") has been seen as rather infuriating for readers. Though, after they were conquered, Ainz then ordered Cocytus to rule over them with the carrot and not the stick, showing that he's not a total sadist. However, Ainz later unleashed five abominations on a huge, mostly conscript, army and showed nothing but glee towards breaking the record of how many monsters were summoned at once, not even feeling anything about all those who his summoned monstrosities slaughtered. And then there's everything about Demiurge's "livestock". Seriously, many fans of Overlord would want a crossover with other series just so Ainz could face a challenge and be defeated JUST ONCE.
- Spiritual Adaptation: If you unfocus your eyes, you can almost convince yourself you’re watching an anime adaptation of Den.
- That One Boss: For the Great Underground Tomb of Nazarick this title can easily be assigned to Victim, Guardian of the 8th Level. The irony of it all is that Victim is only level 35 and the weakest Guardian. His power comes from being able to sacrifice himself, which causes an onslaught of crippling status debuffs and movement lockdown effects, allowing the rest of Nazarick's forces to kill the invaders at their leisure. To emphasise this point; no Raid Party in Yggdrasil had ever gotten past it.
I removed the areas marked in bold, Spiritual Adaptation, and That One Boss because of the nature of these edits.
- Memetic Badass not only had misspelling, but it also reads as a Justifying Edit and conflicts with the trope.
- Rooting for the Empire has an unnecessary point at the end and has no reason to be there.
- Spiritual Adaptation reads as a ZCE since it doesn't explain how it is one.
- That One Boss is being used for an In-Universe example, so it doesn't make sense to include it.
After removing them on 1/13, said troper returned and added them back in without a message. I sent them a message notifying them I would be making this.
Edited by keyblade333

On the Trivia.Genshin Impact page, I added a Teasing Creator example yesterday specifically about a Tweet of another game's official Twitter account (of Honkai Impact 3rd) replying to a topic about this game (GI). I originally worded in it a way that mentions the official HI3 Twitter account playing along with the "Multiverse/Crossover/collab theories or Epileptic Trees in the two related fandoms.
However ~coconutkirin deleted the part about the Tweet with the edit reason of "I don't consider the official account admins as "god" enough for this example to count".
I PM'd coconut as well, but I'll just create an ATT regarding the scope/limitations of Teasing Creator regardless.
Although their edit reason might sound YMMV because of the phrase "I don't consider" (but I myself consider the official account as a source), now I'm actually confused on what source does or doesn't count within the context of that trope.
Are Twitter accounts valid for Teasing Creator or not? What if one troper doesn't consider them as a source but another troper does? Because I consider the official Twitter account as an official source for "Creator" tropes, I would personally restore the example I added before. But since it was deleted because another troper doesn't consider the official Twitter account for the example, which is which? Or, based on their edit reason, what is considered "god" enough for Teasing Creator examples to be counted?
I added that Tweet to Teasing Creator simply because I saw other Teasing Creator examples that use official Twitter accounts, or use general statements regarding the company. For example, the trope page lists the following:
- In January 2018, Nintendo fans were anxiously awaiting the announcement of a rumored January 11th Nintendo Direct.note Yes, not the video itself, but the announcement that there would be one. The fanbase threw themselves into an absolute fervor, with cries of "Reset the clock!" occurring every hour for days in anticipation. Eventually, Nintendo of America acknowledged this on January 10th... by posting a picture of Chibi-Robo! on fire
. (The source is the official Twitter account)
- My Little Pony example - Before Season 3, people who worked on the show posted spoilers on their Twitter accounts. These spoilers were the fact that the new season would be cute and would contain ponies. (Mentions "people who work on the show.. posted on their Twitter accounts".).
Edited by DanteVin