Have a question about how the TVTropes wiki works? No one knows this community better than the people in it, so ask away! Ask the Tropers is the page you come to when you have a question burning in your brain and the support pages didn't help.
It's not for everything, though. For a list of all the resources for your questions, click here. You can also go to this Directory thread
for ongoing cleanup projects.
Ask the Tropers is for:
- General questions about the wiki, how it works, and how to do things.
- Reports of problems with wiki articles, or requests for help with wiki articles.
- Reports of misbehavior or abuse by other tropers.
Ask the Tropers is not for:
- Help identifying a trope. See TropeFinder.
- Help identifying a work. See MediaFinder.
- Asking if a trope example is valid. See the Trope Talk forum.
- Proposing new tropes. See TropeLaunchPad.
- Making bug reports. See QueryBugs.
- Asking for new wiki features. See QueryWishlist.
- Chatting with other tropers. See our forums.
- Reporting problems with advertisements. See this forum topic.
- Reporting issues on the forums. Send a Holler instead.
Ask the Tropers:
openWhat to do with this?
YMMV.The Mandalorian S 1 E 1 Chapter 1 The Mandalorian
- "Funny Aneurysm" Moment: The Running Gag of IG-11 trying to self-destruct when his situation goes remotely south turns into this after Chapter 8, where he uses his self-destruct mechanism for a Heroic Sacrifice in a scene that isn't played for humor.
Recap pages are Spoilers Off, so when to we allow or not allow spoilers for later works? Removing the spoiler part would leave "The Running Gag of IG-11 trying to self-destruct when his situation goes remotely south turns into this after Chapter 8." which sounds like a Zero-Context Examples as it doesn't explain how.
Also, as part of the same season they were written alongside each other so it was probably intentional by the writer. Does "Funny Aneurysm" Moment count for deliberate examples or is that Chekhov's Gag played for drama.
openPage with little source
I was planning on making a second character page for the series Gamaran focused on the characters appearing in the second part of the series, Gamaran Shura. However, the point is....
As mentioned on the main manga page, Shura, while still ongoing (first came out in 2018) is still so far Japanese-only, as I've yet to see even a translated scan, and only a handful of chapters are avaible in a Japanese site. I got most of the info (including something I've already added to the pages of Gamaran itself by getting info from the Japanese Wikipedia page dedicated to Gamaran.
I was thinking of making the character page using the information I got from that page, doing my best with what I understood from that page. I'd rather want to know in advance if I can give it a shot, or if it's too far fetched. It's not much, but I swear I'll do my best.
Ps: The "second character page" is both because Shura is a sequel and because I don't want to put too many examples in a single character page.
Edited by MukademaohopenIssues concerning WMG/FIsForFamily
Recently, an Edit War has broken out between two factions; a troper named Johnny 2071 who has acted in violation of Complaining About Shows You Dont Like, and both myself and fellow troper AHI-3000, who have taken issue with his edits. Johnny 2071 has an obsessive hatred of the Netflix show F is for Family and has taken to venting his frustrations about the show on the WMG page. Prior attempts to negotiate with Johnny 2071, on my part, have only led to tempers flying high. This attempt to resolve the issue personally has gotten me nowhere, so, on AHI-3000's suggestion, I have come here to try and work things out far more professionally than previously handled. How do you suggest this issue be resolved?
openDoes having your memory erased and replaced with FakeMemories count for BrainwashedAndCrazy. Videogame
So there's a character in Fire Emblem Awakening, whose backstory involves her being kidnapped as a teenager by people she hates, having her entire memory and personality erased to the point she no longer remembers her parents or even her name, and then all this being replaced with a Fake Memories magically implanted into her mind. She is then used to carry out her kidnapper's bidding.
The character describes herself as a ""A girl enslaved mind, body, and soul"
and the official sources use "pawn" and "puppet to describe her, with the Fire Emblem wiki(link
, ) describing her with the word, "brainwashed."
The reason I put this here is someone keeps contesting this example and saying she wasn't brainwashed, even though there is a similar character listed from Sailor Moon. I wanted to know what ATT thinks? Does that count as an example of Brainwashed and Crazy?
Edited by MonsundopenIssues with edits by Tropers/TheKaizerreich
I skimmed through the edit history
of The Kaizerreich since I found their name concerning. They haven't edited for almost three years but there are a couple of edits I find problematic. (Links to the specific edits in the history don't seem to work. Are they too old? Is this a bug?)
This got rewritten anyways, however obscure comparisons of the number of killings are a typical right wing talking point (Holodomor
is more comparable to the Great Famine in Ireland and it is completely beside the point).
In Acceptable Political Targets they added:
- CNN is getting in on the deal as well, with an overwhelming amount of 2016's journalism being full of pro-Hillary Clinton reporting while exaggerating anything and everything Donald Trump did (and in some cases just plain making it up). Trump himself (in)famously called CNN "Fake News" during a press conference. On the other hand, Trump is also aligned with:
- Alex Jones, a radio host and probably the living example of a Conspiracy Theorist, who has to be seen to be believed (and many people don't believe he's authentic). His website Infowars will bring just about any news story they can and has been roundly mocked, though the mockery died down after Trump started associating with them and them bringing a few stories that were shockingly real.
Further they added an example on Maggie Thather that in essence is also in the current version. Here's the original edit:
I agree that Thatcher is a good example for this trope however I feel the criticism is portrayed in a wrong way, cf. [1]
. While Thatcher is seen as an unpleasant person it's not due to "moral guarding".
In Acceptable Professional Targets they added:
And also
In Acceptable Ethnic Targets they edited:
This somewhat beside the point. They also added an example that in essence survived till today:
As a German I know none of those "popular Turks" who made it into "high military positions". Actually I don't know any high ranking military officer (who are still in office) at all. They are definitely not popular. However, there are popular politicians of Turkish descent. Also there are very few "Turks" in Germany but many people of Turkish descent, in the third generation or so. As for television, I'm not aware of any popular stereotypes. That's not to say there wouldn't be any but they should give examples.
In Black Panther (2018) they started an edit war for which they got suspended [2]
and I don't even know what to think about the example:
- Sacred Cow: Negative reviews no matter how mild got frequently blasted to oblivion because this is a "mostly black" movie and thus somehow a Sacred Cow by default, whether it has actual merit or not - which carries the rather unfortunate suggestion that the movie cannot actually stand up to scrutiny and requires an enforced air of ultra-positive public opinion to be relevant.
There are also three other ATT threads about edit war issues [3]
[4]
[5]
.
I'm not sure if I'm the only one who has issues with those edits but maybe others can help looking through the edit history. Of those examples above only the Thatcher and Turkish-German examples seem to have survived.
Edit: Fixed formatting
Edited by SirenaopenSelf Demonstrating lists - OK to remove YMMV?
Do Self Demonstrating character pages' example lists contain only tropes? Looks to be the case, but I'm asking before removing YMMV entries (specifically Adorkable).
openWasted Character? - Edit War
keyblade333 has added the following example of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character to Wonder Woman (2017):
"Ares is one Wonder Woman's top villains in terms of influence, power, and overall notability. The choice to end the very first solo film with him defeated is seen as a huge waste by many viewers, as Ares easily is strong enough that he could be a good climatic villain at the end of perhaps another movie that builds up to him. He even works well as a potential Big Bad for a Justice League style villain if built up enough. Sadly he is killed after appearing at the end with no real build up."
I don't think this is a valid example because, as stated in the trope's page, "this trope is about ignored characters with good potential who never receive the spotlight (or do so just once and then get removed or forgotten)". Ares' machinations are the catalyst for everything that goes wrong in the narrative, and I don't understand what they mean by "no real build up", given that killing him is Wonder Woman's entire motivation for most of the film.
The entry also argues that Ares deserved to be the villain of another film, but this violates another of this trope's rules: "(This trope) is not about leading characters who are not used the way you would like; there are infinite alternative ways any given character could have been used."
It should be noted that this is the second time this troper has added such an example to the page, so I cannot do anything about it without edit warring myself. Can I get some opinions?
openMisused as not explanations?
I've removed Fan-Disliked Explanation examples as just being fan-disliked (like X hooked up with Y) but not explanations (how or why X happened). With that I bring up the following:
- Applejack's parents are both deceased, and fans almost universally liked and accepted the idea that Applejack's hat was a Tragic Keepsake from one of them to the point that it fell into Word of Dante territory. Then one of the shorts torpedoed that headcanon by having her declare she won it bobbing for apples at a fair. Fans were quick to fanwank a compromise
. When that was further jossed by showing she has a closet full of identical hats, the bronies proved they were that dedicated to the Tragic Keepsake idea and still insisted that one of the hats was special or simply chose to ignore the closet gag altogether. When she threw her damaged hat away without any of the angst that would support the fanon, fans threw the hat a quick funeral, and still embraced the Tragic Keepsake fanon. Some less seriously than others
. The eventual reveal that her father did wear an identical hat remedied this for a lot of fans, for if nothing else, Applejack got her fashion sense from him even if she didn't get the hat itself.
- Fans were under the impression Luna's turn into Nightmare Moon was purely the result of her giving in to her own feelings of being overshadowed and under-appreciated by the ponies of Equestria, in line with the opening narration of the show. The IDW comics however would explain that it was an outside source that was the cause of the transformation, having taken advantage of this feelings rather than Luna herself deliberately turning against Celestia. When these events were finally shown it was kept ambiguous whether Luna was in full control or not, and showed that Nightmare Moon's "reign" lasted for about an hour at most consisting of a very brief fight between her and Princess Celestia before Nightmare Moon was defeated and banished. Overall, fans found this underwhelming to say the least, felt the show's detailing of the events very disappointing for something so anticipated, and believe said events make Luna's guilt over it come off as silly and overblown to some fans to the point of Fridge Logic unless they take later comics as canon.
- "Tanks for the Memories" implying that less than a year has passed in the series since "May the Best Pet Win". Many fans found it utterly ridiculous that three seasons' worth of episodes all happened to take place within such a short time frame.
The 1st and 3rd I think are misused as they are just refuting popular fan theories as opposed to offering alternative explanations (the implication may even have been unintentional). The 1st half of the second entry is valid if reworked, but the 2nd half (which I added before I realized the possible issue) I'm not sure if it's this or just Jossed as, while it shows how the fight went down, I'm not sure if it reveals it in a way that can be considered an explanation as it was incidental and plot-irrelevant as opposed to meant to explain a question about the setting.
Thoughts?
Edited by Ferot_DreadnaughtopenGrojfan
Grojfan’s been showing numerous issues in their edits.
- They added images to Headscratchers.My Gym Partners A Monkey and Trivia.Casagrandes. The former is under “No Pic” on Image Pickin' Special Cases, and the latter probably shouldn’t have a pic either.
- They added an image to Heartwarming.The Casagrandes which I don’t understand in the slightest.
- Some self-indentation here
.
- This edit has two ZCEs, some concerning usage of the r-word, and some odd misuse of
Depraved Bisexual.
- Transphobic edit with more bad indentation and some CRF misuse
.
- Created NauseaFuel.My Gym Partners A Monkey, which has lots of ZCEs.
- They also added lots of misuse to Radar.My Gym Partners A Monkey (which they also created), but all of that is from a while ago.
open Huge edit on The Mandalorian with some issues
Yesterday Schnikeys made a truly massive edit to Series.The Mandalorian, changing over 80 lines. This was the edit reason given:
There's a bunch of things to talk about here. First, the edit summary leaves out mention of a large number of tweaks such as inserting potholes, adding natter, justifying edits, rewriting entries to be more favorable to certain characters and more critical to others, etc.
The absurdly large number of changes, many of which are relatively minor and mixed in with legitimate cleanup edits, means digging up and listing everything would take ages, but here's the biggest issue - an enormous wall of text appended to this already long trope entry, in blatant "justifying edit" / "conversation in the main page" manner:
- Cult: The Mandalorians of the enclave are so fanatically devoted to the old ways of Mandalore that they won't remove their helmets for any reason while in public and consider someone else attempting to remove it a grave insult. Not even Death Watch was that bad. In contrast to Death Watch, however, their traditions are focused on preservation of their culture, as opposed to battle for the sake of it. Chapter 11 confirms that they are indeed a religious cult, as Mando meets Bo-Katan and learns that most other Mandalorians do not actually follow such extreme ideals as refusing to remove their helmets in public. It is further revealed that they are called the Children of the Watch, suggesting they were actually started by the remnants of Death Watch, or Mando's sect and Death Watch stem from a common ancestor splinter-faction of Mandalorians.
- Subverted (or possibly outright averted) in that the customs of Mando’s Tribe are completely practical in light of the very recent Great Purge. Due to Chapter 8, we know that the Empire (and subsequently the Imperial remnants) has access to the personal information of ''every’’ Mandalorian registered on Mandalore at the time of the genocide — definitely including their names, since that’s how Moff Gideon knew Mando’s, and probably including their faces as well. Just about every other episode features someone either groping Mando’s armor or outright trying to steal it off of his body: if you take off your armor, it’ll probably be the last thing you do. Chapter 8 shows that a group of Mandalorians appearing in public together is enough to bring an Imperial pogrom down on the covert: of course they only appear one at a time. Tossing your name and/or face around is probably enough by itself to paint a big stormtrooper-shaped target on your back: of course you wouldn’t be able to go back to a highly-confidential location where your persecuted minority is hiding your children after that kind of security breach. Add all of that to the fact that in Chapter 4, Mando is very clear about the fact that wearing the armor is a completely voluntary choice and that no one in his community is going to come after him for leaving their group, even though he’s their primary provider… suddenly, the covert looks a lot more like refugees in a surveillance state than a [[Cult cult]].
EDIT: Another user has pointed out that the troper has also been adding non-YMMV items to the show's YMMV page.
Edited by Dirtyblue929resolved Two more screwed up custom titles
Bara and Girl Love (both of them locked redirects) are displaying as "Bara Genre" and "Yuri Genre" respectively. This type of move was common in the old days, but we no longer allow custom title renames.
The latter is not to be confused with Girls' Love, itself a redirect to Yuri Genre, which displays properly.
(If the following links both display correctly, the issue has been fixed: Bara, Girl Love.)
openWhy was the Wario thread locked?
This thread in particular : It's'a Wario Time!
The last post was thumped. Having read that post before it was thumped, I understand why it was thumped. I'm not disputing that. However the thread itself seems to be valid, it's about the Wario series, and as far as I know you are allowed to have general videogame series threads in the videogame subforum. I don't see why the thread needed to be locked. Again I am not contesting the thumping of the last post.
Edit: On the advice of Kevjro 7 I took it to the appeal to the dicussions about moderation
thread.
open Edit war
It's about Daenerys Targeryen again.
The original entry by Eolewyn 1010 here
:
- Daenerys has this at least In-Universe: Missandei, Grey Worm and, to a degree, even Varys constantly tell people that she is a great queen with a sense for justice, Jorah Mormont more than once states she has a "gentle heart". Except this is the very same queen who feeds men to her dragons, commenting that they very well "could all be innocent" of the crime she accuses them of, brings hundreds of thousands of raping and killing warriors into her native land so that they may raid the country and people and burns defeated enemies alive because they refuse to bow to her. Daenerys even has this on herself, as she keeps telling that she will "break the wheel", meaning the social structure that suppresses many people in favor of few others, but at the same time she conquers lands, destroys fleets and ground and kills hundreds of people in order to become queen - thus, their superior.
Deleted by White Wolf 4961 with the reason "This is all clearly anti Dany. Besides that one master, when has she ever fed people to her dragons? And she didn’t bring the Dothraki to rape and pillage with impunity. In fact she was horrified at what they did to that village in S1. Besides what she’s done is hardly any different to what other “good leaders” like the Starks have done."
Re-added by Nerdanel Noldo with the reason "Restoring this because the reasons it was deleted are incorrect. This is not Anti-Daenerys, it's stating what she did in the show. Aside from downplaying the horrific things Daenerys did, the previous editor said that the starks did horrible things too, which they did not, but this ignores the point: the starks weren't continously described as having a 'gentle heart' and being so kind and compassionate, unlike Daenerys."
I'm honestly exhausted with Daenerys arguments at this point, but I think it's worth noting that Nerdanel has a history of edits that seem to slant towards an anti-Dany bias. This
, this
, and and this
are all deletions made in Sansa's defense (some of which may be okay, but Sansa isn't absolutely blameless in some of her Season 8 actions), and the edit reasons are filled with insults at Dany. This
, too, but the first sentence in the edit reason is "The whole entry is just stupid."
Also, imo, Nerdanel's edit reasons tend to be filled with misinformation or misinterpretation that seems deliberate. The aforementioned entry talks about Dany being cruel for crucifying people, leaving out that said people murdered children and slaves and did the same thing to them. This one
calls Mirri Maz Duur an innocent, leaving out that she killed Dany's unborn child. This
and this
, though, are just so blatantly incorrect and I daresay trying to defend Viserys, of all people, saying he "was good to Dany for years" (he constantly abused and sexually assaulted her) and didn't sell Dany to Drogo, and that it was just an arranged marriage. (So, I guess that "I would let all 10,000 Dothraki and their horses fuck you" comment just never happened.) It honestly feels like they're trying to undermine the things Dany suffered through just because they don't like her.
openAvengers 1000000 B.C. Print Comic
I just found Avengers 1000000 BC, a page which was created almost a month ago.
And I'm not sure why the page itself exists, as Avengers 1000000BC isn't a work, it's a group of characters that have appeared in various works (8 major appearances
in 3 different works, and 6 minor appearances
in 3 different works if the Marvel wiki is to be believed).
So I don't get why they have their own page, and not just have their tropes listed on either a character page, or just the relevant tropes listed in the pages of the work's they've appeared in.
openEdit War in YMMV/FinalFantasyXV Videogame
Immortal Bear re-deleted
an entry I restored to Final Fantasy XV since their original deletion lacked an edit reason. They've provided an explanation after the fact, but most of it comes off as personal opinion and dislike of the Episode Ignis ending for reasons unrelated to what the original entry was about (that being that audience perception of its tone shifted due to Dot F), rather than an impartial collective observation of the reactions of the fandom at the time.
I've PM'd them as much, pointing out to them that they seem to take the YMMV label too literally as its actual focus is to describe audience responses to a work rather than to post personal opinions, that contrary to their belief the page is not trying to wage a war over which ending is objectively better, and I've also pointed out to them that though they claim the only people with a non-negative opinion are a Vocal Minority, other tropers have made the same observations as me regarding the state of the fandom at the time.
They seem to believe that because Dawn of the Future has an overall score of 9.0 on Good Reads (which often has a userbase culture distinct from the social media sites I frequent like Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit, or imageboards, and whose score doesn't always take into account things like the specific comparative tone of the ending), while Episode Ignis rates an average of 7.0 (the score again mostly focusing on things like gameplay rather than tone), that it invalidates everything I've said above, since I don't have hard sources on hand for every tweet or social media comment I've seen regarding people being softer on Episode Ignis's ending or disliking Dawn of the Future's approach.
I don't think that makes for an effective counterargument as YMMV does not mandate sources in general, and Dawn of the Future's perception outside of GR tends to attract a lot of negativity in its own right, not to mention disregarding said potential inherent selection bias (the people posting reviews were probably accepting enough of the controversies around the book to read through the whole thing). The reviews themselves on GR are variable with many positive scores criticizing the ending, and many reviews that praise the ending having mediocre scores on the whole.
None of the arguments they've provided contradict the initial point (that people's opinions of Episode Ignis became less hostile once Dawn of the Future was announced) of nor justify the deletion of the entry describing how people's hostility to a certain alternate ending seen as overly happy, dipped off once another, even happier ending showed up. Especially since the edit reason for deleting it is focused mostly on arguing why Alternate Ending #1 is badly written and any talk of audience reactions is more about pointing out that a portion of the audience exist who liked the other newer, even happier ending, even though the original entry never claimed otherwise or to speak for the entirety of the fandom.
Update: They are now accusing me of outright lying and being biased in favor of one ending for disputing their deletions, despite the major issues here having to do with a lack of, followed by questionably irrelevant removal reasons in what is a potential edit war. Update 2: They've taken it back after I explained myself further.
Edited by AlleyOopopen Edit war
A pretty angry edit war is happening on the YMMV page for Blue Valentine
This is the original Misaimed Fandom entry:
- Misaimed Fandom: Young, aimless men are more likely to overidentify with Dean and characterize him as a good husband and father who is unfairly treated, instead of a pushy, needy, manipulative an immature, needy drunk who rarely takes Cindy's feelings into consideration.
Aviator Fan added this:
- In much the same vein, young, flighty women are likely to overempathize with Cindy and lionize her struggling working woman traits, instead of clocking her poor model of spousal relations- the effects of which she clearly brings into, not only her relationship with Dean, but presumably her other dalliances, her promiscuity, and her general coldness towards Dean despite his genuine attempts to reach out to her.
With the reason "Elaboration, fullness of analysis, alternate perspective."
H Barnill deleted it without a reason.
Aviator Fan then deleted the original MF entry with "Coolness. Dishonesty in not reflecting the whole truth of the fact that both genders are likely to experience the film differently. Counter to the deletion of the entry of the inverse misaimed fandom"
kyeo re-added the original saying "yeah we don't actually need to both-sides this"
Aviator Fan deleted it again. "Well we actually kind of do need to both sides it. You see the film doesn't present either side as right or wrong. It presents it as two people, because of what they are individually bringing into it that's detrimental to the relationship, are not good together. Despite that they may love each other. I could see if this were a movie in which there was, say, a rape. Where totally. We don't need to really both sides it or even give the man's feelings beforehand because it can be seen as an attempt to justify his actions. It's however pretty strange and, in keeping with the site's general unofficial policy, pretty uncool to suggest that women can't be subject to getting hit with misaimed fandom in this case as well. Ignoring the problems of the Michelle William's character. To that end, if that's what we're going to suggest, it's eminently more appropriate for no one to be accused of being a victim of the misaimed fandom trope. As, again, to suggest that it's only men who are, is clearly a simplified partisan take that doesn't do the even-handed, nuanced film's presentation of itself accurate justice."
kyeo re-added it. "nope."
Aviator Fan deleted it. "Political opinion."
kyeo re-added it. "you're literally only deleting this because your mra screed got deleted."
Aviator Fan re-added his edit to the original. "You're a real piece of work, but considering how accurate, non argumentative, and in the spirit of the site my edit is, we can play these games til the cows come home lol"
kyeo deleted it. "Lol bye"
Re-add. "Taking this Very personally. It's weird. Love it lmao"
Deleted. "imagine hating women this much"
Re-add. "Imagine not knowing how YMM Vs work. Imagine thinking you have some authority. Imagine projecting so much. Amazing."
Deleted. "Lol incels"

My main concern is how to write this so as to avert creating a Self-Fulfilling Spoiler. The Flood in Halo is very clearly named after the Genesis flood narrative, but how would I go about adding this in to the page without creating a Self-Fulfilling Spoiler since in the backstory, the Flood were effectively created as a means to purge the Forerunners, who retaliated by creating an Ark to preserve most species?
Edited by EclipseMT