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Ask the Tropers:
openConcerns Regarding HardTruthAesop - Bojack Horseman
I have many concerns regarding the "Aesop's" described in https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HardTruthAesop/BoJackHorseman
. There's a lot of info that could be seen a disparaging to people with mental illness, and perpetuates some opinions on the subject that I personally find offensive. Granted I am fairly emotional about the topic lately, so if I am overreacting please let me know.
The ones regarding suicide in particular are pretty hot-button and could potentially bring up traumatic memories for people (it did for me). The entries do not seem to recognize or even acknowledge that people who are suicidal are not making a decision. Intervention is important, and although I agree that no one should feel obligated to be someone's support, I also don't think we should be encouraging people to abandon their loved ones when they have a suicide attempt. Not that I think that's the intention of this sentiment, but I do see it becoming more common recently as a push back against supporting people with mental illness.
Also, (digression) I personally find this to be a pretty negative Double Standard. I highly doubt a character with a physical illness would be given as much blame for putting stress on others because of their illness. I wonder if there's a better way to explain this without putting blame on mentally ill people, because that's kinda what it feels like. Like by putting more focus on self-care, instead of implicitly criticizing people for attempting suicide.
openMythological Figures and Character Rerailment in Adaptations
I noticed that Character Rerailment, a YMMV trope, was in Mr. Wednesday/Odin's folder on the Character page for American Gods. Normally, I would have just moved it to the YMMV page, but since it's about how the novel chooses to adapt a mythological figure, I decided to ask for advice on whether or not that would indeed be the right course of action.
The entry was as follows:
- Character Rerailment: Post-Eddas, Odin has been mostly portrayed as a Grandpa God. Here, he has the more chaotic and selfish personality of older mythology.
openMerging Two Articles Videogame
The article for Leviathan is in a sorry state and would be difficult to repair/add content for. The work itself is a short, direct prequel to Limbus Company, whose article is in a much better state.
Would it make sense to cut Leviathan's article and simply add its tropes to Limbus Company's? There would be folders separating the two, of course.
open Edit War on Love of Kill Anime
I swore to myself I was going to avoid this page from now on but I need to report myself and another troper for edit-warring. Back in January I added the following example to Love of Kill (and admittedly with an unnecessarily rude edit reason because I was furious at having wasted my lunch break watching it, thinking it would be similar to SPY×FAMILY).
- Sexual Extortion: Song (AN: male lead) spends the first episode (or first few manga chapters) extorting a "date" from Chateau (AN: female lead) in exchange for information she needs for her day job and only manages to not actually rape her because she finally musters the nerve to actually leave the hotel room he takes her to at the end of it. He still manages to force a hug on her before she gets on the train to go home.
This example was first modified due to a factual error in the original version (perfectly okay), and then deleted outright by Ominae (not okay). I re-added it, and then immediately realized I was edit-warring and posted on the discussion tab
. I fully admit I blew it.
Without checking the discussion tab or taking note of the legal definition of sexual harassment, Ominae removed the example again.
I freely admit that I was unnecessarily rude and have an irrational hatred for this series (I consider it to be the best fantasy for incels since Redo Of Healer), but everything in the example is factually correct.
openWhat to do with this?
The page itself has no example, but it host several of other Podcast pages which look fine enough.
openTroper forcing a CompleteMonster pothole on a non-YMMV page
First of all: yes, I'm aware the Complete Monster trope is currently going through some major revisions, and the cleanup threads are being revamped right now, so directing them to the thread isn't going to help out much.
That said:
Fidor
just added a Complete Monster pothole to Characters.IT with an EDIT reason that boils down to "I want to pothole Complete Monster to a non-YMMV page regardless what the rules says, because I just want to...."
Looking through the page's history of 500-odd edits, this isn't the first time someone had tried forcing a CM pothole up there, including an instance in 2016 where the CM curator ACW removed a Complete Monster pothole because... well, it's a YMMV trope. Note that it's clearly specified on the page itself: there's no In-Universe trope for Complete Monster
, characters calling out others is You Monster!
And that Fidor
is a new troper who barely had any edits, yet is already insisting on potholing a YMMV item on a character page...
open Alcohol/drugs as a character establisher?
Edit: Sorry, will post this on Trope Finder! Is there a specific trope that refers to alcohol and/or other drugs being used as a signifier that a character is self-destructive or otherwise not mentally stable?
Edited by sparkkeysopenGrowing The Beard misuse (only happens once)?
- Growing the Beard:
- While the pilot was entertaining and did a good job at introducing the characters, many view the first proper episode as an improvement for having a continuous narrative plot instead of just random skits and cutaway gags. It fully grows in with "Loo Loo Land", where the cast and crew showed their ability to have some genuinely heartfelt and serious moments in an otherwise comedic show, to the point that even some of the pilot's detractors have said the episode made them take Stolas seriously as a character.
- The second instance of this is when "The Harvest Moon Festival" debuted. Some fans started to feel that, while the Rogues Gallery are fun to watch, the villains themselves are a bit too interchangeable with one another. The basic formula seems to be that the antagonist of the week is psychotic, bigoted towards imps, hates Blitzo, or some combination of the three. They are eventually subdued by the end of the episode, rinse and repeat. "The Harvest Moon Festival" spices things up with the introduction of Striker, who is considerably more unique than what we’ve seen so far. He has an enmity with someone other than Blitzo (Moxxie), almost manipulated Blitzo into joining his side, and gets away unscathed near the end while still being in a position to continue his orders from Stella, who hired him to kill her promiscuous husband. Subsequent episodes will push even more improvements. "Truth Seekers" which has Blitzo having a truth-serum addled epiphany, softening his heart towards Moxxie and even returning Stolas' affections to his delight, ticking off some Character Development for them. It also ended with a very genuine risk of a Broken Masquerade that could have long-lasting repercussions to Earth, Heaven and Hell. "OZZIE'S" has multiple memorable characters return, stifling worries that they would be one-shot characters.
The second bullet was recently added. I believe it is misuse as GTB can only happen once as it's the point it being to get good/improve itself, not every moment of such. I edited the entry before so I'm asking here first. Is that the case/should it be removed?
openGenshin Impact - major gamebreaker page renovation Videogame
Genshin Impact's gamebreaker page has become a bit bloated, so myself and another troper have been proposing ways to trim it down. But because this is going to be a very large-scale edit, I wanted more than just one other voice on this before we start pruning. My proposed changes are:
1. Gamebreakers are based on spiral abyss performance only. It's the only "endgame" content and the main-game and timed events are generally too easy to warrant a gamebreaker page. I'd also like to add a disclaimer that gamebreakers are not necessary to "win" at this game since the spiral abyss has very little rewards and this is an expensive Gacha game.
2. Character write-ups focus on their gamebreaking aspects only. Currently they seem to go over every part of their kit leading to bloated entries often getting too far into walkthrough mode or adding meaningless dribble.
3. Cut the artifacts section. It focuses on set bonuses, which while nice are not as important as the substats at the mercy of RNG (so a mixed set with great substats will beat a set bonus with meh stats). That and most characters have more than one viable set, so which is "gamebreaking" is subjective. The Emblem of Severed Fate is the only one worth keeping imo, as while others just amplify already strong characters this one actually fixes holes and makes certain playstyles viable.
4. Cut the elemental reactions section. At this time about two-thirds of all the reactions in the game are listed, making the list less novel. About every reaction has a viable team set-up, so at this point we're just saying it pays to use the game's central mechanic.
What do you think?
openFormatting for a WMG page Web Original
Hi folks, I made a WMG page for the first time ever at Outside Xbox (for the purpose of their TTRPG series' only). I divided some of it by folders as I know is done for some topics on other pages (perhaps getting ahead of myself there) ... but the formatting seems off when I compare it to a couple of other pages of similar sorts. Could anyone please advise? Kind regards - captainmarkle
Edited by captainmarkleopenDo I need permission to declare a trope as Discredited/Dead Horse/etc...?
As the title says. For example, Interchangeable Asian Cultures seems to me to fit pretty well the definition of Discredited Trope, but it's not called as such in the description itself, nor is it indexed in Discredited Trope, Dead Horse Trope, etc... I'd be inclined to put it there with an explanation, but I'm not sure if I need to gather consensus before or I'm good to go.
openDiscussion of tropes related to gender-fluid characters.
Given that they are now recurring characters in the franchise, another troper saw fit to move Glen and Glenda to the main Character page for Child's Play, which brought the use of their now former pronouns within their entries to my attention. I saw fit to change the pronouns used in the entries, but found myself unsure whether or not certain tropes should also be removed, given that Glen and Glenda do respectively identify as male and female in certain parts of Seed of Chucky (though they no longer do anymore).
The edits/tropes are as follows:
For Glen:
- Momma's Boy: They get along better with Tiffany than they do with Chucky in contrast to Glenda being Daddy's Girl.
- Nice Guy: They're a real sweetheart. Their nanny even calls them an "angel" and an "absolute dream" to take care of.
- Only Sane Man: Or rather "Only Sane Doll". Compared to Chucky and Tiffany and their Glenda personality/twin they are the most normal member of the Ray family.
For Glenda:
- Daddy's Girl: To Chucky in contrast to Glen being a Momma's Boy to Tiffany. (this one's questionable given that, from what I recall, Chucky was pretty freaked out by them - at least in regards to how they killed Joan).
- Like Mother, Like Daughter: They proudly repeat this word-for-word saying they patterned the dress they made herself after Tiffany's. Though personality-wise, they're more like Chucky.
Should these tropes be removed, be changed, or should they stay given that - once again - they each respectively identified as male and female in Seed (plus Glenda did indeed repeat Like Mother, Like Daughter word-for-word like the edits says)?
Edited by WiryAiluropodineopenPotential misuse of UnfortunateImplications
I found this edit on the Live-Action TV page for What An Idiot:
- Season 8 of the American version of The Amazing Race provided a rare funny example. The season was an experiment with family teams of four rather than teams of two of different relationships. The only non-white family was a black family whose surname happened to be, well, Black. Cue the Cringe Comedy of them always being called "the Black family" both by the other teams and by the show itself. They were the first team eliminated, so at least the unintentional hilarity didn't last.
Should it be removed, given that it doesn't credit an offical and professional source?
open MemeticBadass.ChuckNorris
There's a subpage for MemeticBadass.Chuck Norris but it's not about Chuck Norris himself, but other people who are memetic in the same way (with "facts" about them). Can this go somewhere else?
openDoctor Who WMG - guessing for future episodes on episode-specific pages Live Action TV
How do we handle tropers adding WMG for future episodes/seasons of a show to an episode-specific WMG page?
I'm specifically looking at WMG.Doctor Who 2022 CEN The Power Of The Doctor, which accompanies the equivalent recap page. Now that episode has screened (at least in the UK), all of the existing WMG has been marked as Jossed, Confirmed, not addressed in this episode etc.
However, the final cliffhanger leads into the three 2023 specials, which are very likely to get their own recap pages. And we're now getting tropers adding new WMG about the plots of those specials and the possible payoff for the cliffhanger.
My initial thinking is that this isn't a problem in the short term ... but as soon as those new episodes go out, adding any Jossed/Confirmed response to those guesses would be a problem. It's a Spoilers Off page, but even if they were tagged, my understanding is that a WMG page for episode #22 of a series shouldn't include any spoilers for episode #23 onwards?
So should we leave the WMGs about the next batch of episodes there indefinitely, move them once a more appropriate WMG page is created, or immediately delete them from the page?
(I did delete one on this basis, explaining my thinking in the edit reason - but more are now being added and I'm second-guessing myself)
Thanks!
Edited by Mrph1openKavorka Man Image deleted
Visiting the Kavorka Man page, I had noticed there was an image for it and it's gone now. According to this part of the edit history
, Solsun ended up deleting the image and didn't leave an edit note. And looking at Image Pickin' and Image Pickin' Morgue, I haven't seen anything discussing this being deleted and the page source itself still has the "Image picked by Image Pickin' notice, don't change or remove without starting a new thread". I don't really go on Image Pickin' (mentioning just in case I missed something), but I do wonder if it should be restored back on the page?
openDoes crosswicking the page of a work you made count as Auto-Erotic Troping/Self-promotion?
I know crosswicking is pretty important for pages to thrive and all and it's usually the responsibility of the page creator to do so, but if you create the page for a work that you made and it needs to be crosswicked, does it count as Auto-Erotic Troping and/or self-promotion (which IIRC isn't allowed outside of that one self-promotion thread)?
I'm asking because crosswicking is one of the main ways to get a page noticed and I'd contemplated making a page for a fanfic of mine once or twice. Because of how it makes a page get noticed and thus the work itself, I wondered if it counted as Auto-Erotic Troping/self-promotion.
openQuestion About Fanfic Recs
Hello, am I allowed to rescind a fanfic recommendation I made because the fic itself was removed from Archive of Our Own. I see no point in leaving the recommendation there since there's no way to read the fic anymore.
I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be but I feel safer clarifying first.
openSilverlady
I have a few concerns about Silverlady's edits, especially where the TLP is concerned. I'll start off with their wiki contributions, though.
- Back in August, I sent a grammar notifier for this edit
. Notably, while they made other edits there, those two were never even touched. Grammar issues are still an issue with them
even now.
- They have a very
consistent
issue
with
context
, though IDK if any notifiers have been sent for those yet. However, let's put a pin in this.
- They also have an issue with trope misuse. For example, this
Crapsaccharine World example massively exaggerates both how idyllic and how awful the town is for Belle and her father. This Too Dumb to Live example doesn't make clear what's happening
, as it implies Belle attacks the fake beast after he was impaled, at which point... where's the danger? Etc.
All of these issues can be seen on the TLP, and while there, they've been told about these issues and yet haven't made an effort to fix them. Additionally, they're one of the tropers who keep posting new examples in the middle of discussion, which means they're ignoring everything that says there might be an issue here... something proven by their voting history
, which proves they hat just about anything (save for three random drafts that, ironically, everyone else liked, and no they didn't explain it). note and if you're wondering how I'm getting this info, TLP history is public, you just have to add "?for=username" to the URL
Here's some of their recent TLP post history:
- Serious Hero, Comical Sidekick
has them posting a bunch of examples that, as Amatheiu pointed out, don't fit the description. Additionally, this came in the middle of a discussion over if the trope was covered.
- Diabolical Deer
: Poor grammar/spelling in their example, low context as to what the Moose's plan is and how evil they actually are, and using the trope as "evil deer character" when the trope at that point was specifically about subverted innocence and not just '"evil deer".
- Involuntary Servitude
: Multiple examples starting at the linked post, many with poor grammar and others that don't describe the servitude itself, instead of just saying "they were made a slave".
- Misplaced Mindfulness
: In this one I just can't see the trope at all tbh... It's just a character making a mistake and falling into guilt.
- Children's Covert Coterie
has them again adding something that doesn't fit.
- Comically Tiny Wings
had them learn what a ZCE was, but don't be fooled. They were told on the 17th, but these issues are still showing up in their edits and in the other examples, with the Recap.The Owl House S 3 E 1 Thanks To Them one being on the 18th and the Involuntary Servitude ones being on the 20th and 21st.
- Jumping backwards quite a bit, Diagnosis: Silence
is their first TLP post according to the history... and even back then they had trouble with following the definition and was called out for it.
Now, obviously not all of their posts and edits are bad, but these are some recurring patterns that they're falling into even after being called out. They're clearly going back to threads because they constantly notice when their examples weren't added, so there's no real justification for not learning yet to read the descriptions thoroughly and not stopping to engage with any ongoing discussions. This is, of course, without getting into their grammar and context issues, which, let's be clear...

I'm working on PlayingWith.Reformed Rakes and I need some help. What would be the difference between a Subverted Trope and a Deconstructed Trope in the specific context of the trope Reformed Rake.
The idea of Reformed Rake is that how a man acts prior to marriage is not indicative of how he will act in marriage. Thus you can get the sexiness of All Girls Want Bad Boys but also the wholesomeness of Family Man, by way of The Power of Love.
The "other version" is that no, actually there is some overlap between how a man acts outside his marriage and how he will act within it, and that expecting otherwise is naïve.
The question then is whether this is deconstructing the trope or subverting it. In the examples on the page, it's often call it a deconstruction. I knee-jerk called it a deconstruction myself.
But after thinking about it some more, is that scenario not more of a subversion? The point is that the trope is unrealistic, and so the realistic scenario is the trope not happening. But isn't the trope not happening (after it seemed like it would) actually a subversion?
And if that's actually a subversion, what would a real deconstruction be?