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openPossible edit war - Creator/JKRowling
This one might be a borderline case in terms of the edit itself, but in context it seems worth flagging.
Back in March, following guidance from GastonRabbit, the intro paragraph on J. K. Rowling regarding Rowling's views on trans rights was cut back to a short summary
that tried to keep things factual and avoided weasel words or emotive language. This was agreed via the ROCEJ thread.
A comment was later added advising tropers to check with the thread before making unilateral changes on this.
On April 9th, PatTron made two changes
to that part of the intro - adding a reference to "massive controversy" and changing the "racist tropes" reference to "questionable tropes".
An 'Ignored Comment' notifier was sent, but the view on the thread was that folk were comfortable keeping 'questionable' phrasing. I removed the "massive controversy" line and reverted to the original wording for that sentence, though.
(The thread was very quiet at the time and there was no consensus/comment on that aspect - so reverting to the last version that did have consensus seemed safe)
Today PatTron has added
the "massive controversy" phrasing back into a different sentence within the same para, this time with edit reason "Had to include the word "controversy" elsewhere in the paragraph".
Again, there's been no engagement with the ROCEJ thread, and I've not seen any reply on the notifier message.
Edited by Mrph1open Is This An Instance Of "Blind Idiot Translation" Or "Translation Train Wreck"?
So, I have an absolutely hilarious instance of mistranslation and I'm not sure if it's a "Blind Idiot" Translation or a Translation Train Wreck.
This hilarious mistranslation comes from two facts: 1. The German dub of SpongeBob SquarePants renamed Squidward to "Thaddäus Tentakel", and 2. Google Translate's neural network-based translation software has a tendency to pick up patterns in language... even when it really shouldn't. End result: Any instance of the name "Thaddäus" has decent chance of being translated as "Squidward". (See for yourself
with Thaddius Vent).
So is this a "Blind Idiot" Translation, Translation Train Wreck, or something else?
Edited by sRAMrelevratresolved Creator/MoringMark Page Getting Too Long Webcomic
The Creator Page for MoringMark is getting too long now, and needs to be split up into pages. Problem is, most of the things troped on the page relate to the various fancomics for Gravity Falls, Star vs. the Forces of Evil, and The Owl House, and while some of them do have specific names or series to them, those ones already have their own pages, with the ones on the creator page itself referring to various miscellaneous comics that, while stand alone, are largely connected in a sort of narrative that isn't definitively named.
So, how exactly should the page be split up, what namespaces should be used, should all of the series get their own pages or should only the largest one, The Owl House, get one, etc.
Edited by RebelFalconopenSalvagedStory or ImprovedSecondAttempt?
These are under ImprovedSecondAttempt.Star Wars but under Salvaged Story under YMMV.The Rise Of Skywalker:
- Unlike the prior films where Rey, Finn, and Poe were never together as a group and spent most of The Last Jedi in separate plotlines, they're now a Power Trio and spend much of their screen-time together.
- Finn's goofiness has been toned down to oblivion and he instead makes for a rather good Supporting Leader in the climax.
- Lando is finally added to the new trilogy, after many fans wondering where he was and many believing he was to be in The Last Jedi. He's shown playing a rather important part as well, allowing him to shine in his own right.
- C-3PO and R2-D2 get more screen time and importance compared to the previous films, where they were Demoted to Extra.
- Audiences had mixed responses to Luke's cynicism and depression in The Last Jedi. In this film, Luke's Force Ghost appears to say he was wrong to cut himself off from the galaxy while convincing her not to do the same, acts more light-hearted, and has made peace with his past mistakes. While his final moments in The Last Jedi certainly suggests this, The Rise of Skywalker spells it out and has Luke interact with Rey with this mindset.
- The climax of the previous film had the Resistance's distress calls from the surface of Crait be ignored, noting outright, "They've heard us, but no one's coming." That, combined with just how quickly and easily the galaxy had fallen under First Order control, made it look like the galaxy actively supported the First Order or at the very least were apathetic, undermining the Resistance's whole reason for existing. The Rise of Skywalker reveals that the Resistance's distress calls were being jammed after all, and has Lando go get help from a wide array of allies who come in as The Cavalry in the final battle.
- The Digital Head Swap of Carrie Fisher's face in the flashback of Luke training Leia is less visibly jarring than the same treatment in Rogue One, helped by the nighttime setting and using lightsabers as light sources rather than Rogue One's direct white lighting. After the film premiered, audiences learned that Leia's body double was Fisher's daughter, Billie Lourd.
- The movie reveals that Luke gave Leia basic Jedi training. Expanded universe novels were vague about the extent of her lessons with him, and the prior films didn't explain if she acted on instinct or training when she used the Force to rescue herself from floating in space.
- General Hux's Villain Decay and Butt-Monkey treatment in The Last Jedi leads to him being replaced with General Enric Pryde to take over his role and provide a more credible, non-goofy foe.
- It took 42 out-of-universe years, but Chewbacca finally receives a medal onscreen when Maz gives him Han's as a memento of his deceased friends.
- Turning Rey into Palpatine's granddaughter addresses complaints about why she was so naturally gifted with the Force in The Force Awakens.
- After The Force Awakens, some viewers complained that Rey was an Invincible Hero when she defeated the injured and emotionally unstable Kylo Ren despite his years of training with the Force and experience with lightsaber combat. In this film's final lightsaber duel, a healthy Kylo eventually gains the upper hand and is about to kill Rey when Leia intervenes Just in Time.
- After complaints about Kylo's lightsaber and combat prowess, this film's opening scene shows him as an unstoppable badass tearing through cultists while utilizing the crossguard blades.
- The novelization validates people who believe Rey and Ben's story arc wasn't about romance by describing their kiss in emotionally heightened but non-romantic terms.
- After the lightspeed ram in the previous movie, many fans wondered why such a destructive tactic wasn't commonly used, especially considering Lightspeed travel has existed for thousands of years in-universe and that there was a conflict in which one side was mostly composed of expendable troops just 50 years prior. In this movie, Poe comments that it is a risky manouver with "one-in-a million" chance, explaining that it is not a reliable tactic, hence it is not used unless as a desperate last resort.
Salvaged Story requires it be in-continuity and directly follow up the original storyline it's fixing. Improved Second Attempt I believe only applies to adaptations/separate continuities that do it better, but it seems like it's using separate stories in the same continuity as examples. A lot of this seems to be just moving the Author's Saving Throw (which now require official confirmation) examples to Improved Second Attempt.
Before I move/remove the Improved Second Attempt examples that fit Salvaged Story better, what is the line/limit for what fits ISA (adaptations only or just separate stories or non narrative fixes)? Anything else to do?
openTrope entry refers to "trope image"
Over at Trivia.Cobra Verde (courtesy link to page history
), the lone entry on the page, for Hostility on the Set, was originally written on 3 January by Anicomicgeek and opened with "The trope picture came from this film" (the page image for Hostility on the Set shows Klaus Kinski holding a machete to Werner Herzog's neck).
I re-wrote the entry on 15 January to correct a factual inaccuracy (as originally written, the entry claimed Kinski is trying to strangle Herzog) and remove the reference to the trope image, since Image Pickin' changes or removes such images on a regular basis.
On 6 February, Anicomicgeek changed the entry again by changing "A widely circulated photo shows..." to "The trope picture is, in fact, a widely circulated photo shows...", making the entry grammatically incorrect, adding Word Cruft ("in fact"), and once again violating the rule against mentioning page images in trope entries.
So no Edit War has taken place, but I wanted to be sure I wouldn't be straying into that territory myself by undoing this edit, since I wrote the previous version. And is there an appropriate notifier to send for this?
openCharacter is unmentioned and doesn't appear, yet has folder
This is about the character of Daeron Targaryen, located on Characters.House Of The Dragon Greens. He hasn't appeared in S1, isn't mentioned at all beyond a vague allusion, and was retroactively mentioned in the supplementary website only after the first season ended. Yet he has a folder that's been added/removed a couple of timesnote Counting the initial location of the fam at Characters.House Of The Dragon House Targaryen.
This is his The Ghost entry, which seems to be straining to justify the folder's existence:
- The Ghost: Daeron doesn't appear on-screen in Season 1 and most references to him were removed - except for one brief reference in the Season 1 finale when Daemon states that the Greens have four dragons (Daeron's dragon Tessarion being the fourth). The official HBO website's family tree was updated to include him after the Season 1 finale. Both Ryan Condal and George R.R. Martin himself confirmed in interviews that he exists in the TV continuity and will appear in Season 2: the explanation is that, as in the books, at the time period corresponding to the end of Season 1 he's away in Oldtown squiring for his Hightower cousins, so he wasn't part of the King's Landing storyline. They also avoided having anyone state exactly how many children Alicent has (such as "all three of my children" etc.) - compare this to how Game of Thrones Season 2 self-consciously avoided saying "Stannis has no children", but said "Stannis has no sons", to later introduce that he does have a daughter.
Season 2 of House of the Dragon is, however, publicly still in the writing stage and plans could very well change. Remove this and leave a note saying not to add it back until he actually shows up?
openTroper adding back potholes to an indice
When checking the wicks for A Date with Rosie Palms (which was recently renamed to This Index Touches Itself), I noticed that a lot of the meaningless 'masturbation exists' type of potholes to it that I'd removed have been readded by Fatter Queens, just changed to the new name. This seems to run counter to the point of turning A Date with Rosie Palms into an index in the first place; is this allowed?
Edited by OrbitingopenEdit war on Awesome.TheSuperMarioBrosMovie
Tropers.Blue Sun Studios modified this example to have spoiler markup to the page despite the notice that moments pages are Spoilers Off. Link
- A villainous example as Bowser's more stalwart and gung-ho koopa soldier steps out of the fiery remains of his vehicle and reveals himself to be the blue shell! He quickly takes himself out like the item proper, but this koopa was so unafraid of death that he immediately resorted to his life-ending blue shell tackle+explosion combo without a second thought to get one last shot at killing Mario.
Tropers.King Clark removed the spoiler markup only for Tropers.Blue Sun Studios to put at all back. Link
.
Add > Delete> Re-add constitutes an Edit War...
resolved Likely self-admitted edit war
Today, I stumbled on Peppermint Park while on a Wiki Walk through Bile Fascination. When I got to the WMG page
, I saw one entry that accused the show of being a Mafia laundering scheme. That's bad enough, but then there's the bullet point below it that says this:
- "Even more suspicious, this Troper could have sworn up and down that she had posted this WMG already, but mysteriously, someone seemed to have deleted it. Hmm."
I can only assume that the entry was previously removed for being too controversial. Since the page history only has one entry for February 2022, but the troper's edit history
shows an edit on the page in November 2020, the page was probably cutlisted after it was decided that the entry had to go. Regardless, by recreating a cut page with an entry that includes the line "I know I added this before, but it was deleted", the troper has basically admitted to edit warring.
openNRLEP violations
Epic Fail is listed as No Real Life Examples Please, but the Live-Action TV subpage has these two examples which strike me as Real Life examples:
- One of the funniest outtakes for Mystery Science Theater 3000 involved one of those. Joel had to come on the set and say one word. That word being "waffles." While he's eating waffles. In an episode where every host segment is about waffles. The camera starts rolling:
Joel: "...Pancakes. Oh, I blew it!"
- In-universe example, but just fortuitous in Real Life: Michael Richards was once reminiscing about how, on the set of Seinfeld, he performed an impromptu pratfall while walking through Jerry's door as part of his "Kramer" character. As Richards's feet flew out from under him, one of them went completely over his head, curled around the doorknob, and closed the door all by itself. Richards regretted that he would never be able to do that again.
In fact, I'm not even sure that the latter is an example at all. Candidates for removal?
openDoes this fanfic example even exist? Literature
So, in the "The Reason You Suck" Speech page, specifically the section for crossover fanfics, there are two fics that confuse me: Fire & Ice, a crossover between Frozen and The Hobbit, and The Transformers My Little Pony Crossover 2, a crossover between... well, you know. Now, if you look at the examples each fic gives, you'll notice that both speeches are practically the same thing, even ending on the whole "You will die for wasting my time". Now, the thing that confuses me is that, whereas the MLP/Transformers fic has a link to the fic itself, Fire & Ice doesn't, so I have no idea to confirm whether or not it exists.
openIndentation Problem Or Not?
I just got an indentation notifier I'm not sure is justified on YMMV.Rejected (a three-point line talking about a two-point line
), as the line itself wasn't changed by the editor who sent me the notifier.
Also the edit was made 10 years ago.
openSuper-sub trope relationships.
Bit of a weird one, this.
This is regarding a Raven Branwen Hypocrite entry on Characters.RWBY Anima.
Back in July 2021, gjjones initially removed it because the Hypocrite sub-trope Never My Fault was on her page. I added it back because the Never My Fault entry was a completely different example, and there was no sub-trope detailing the Hypocrite entry. They then changed it to Straw Hypocrite, so I started a discussion on the discussion page about whether that was an appropriate move (a straw hypocrite usually doesn't believe the argument they're making, which isn't the case here). They added the entry back to Hypocrite themselves.
They've just removed the entry on the grounds that the sub-tropes Never My Fault and Secretly Selfish are on the page. But, as per last time, these sub-trope entries are about different examples to the Hypocrite one.
So, this guideline about not allowing the super-trope if sub-tropes are on the page. It's about the same examples, isn't it? If Example A for Character Y is under a sub-trope and Example B fits better under the super-trope and not any sub-trope, is it okay to have the super-trope on the same page for Example B? And, if Example A fits better under a sub-trope, you shouldn't have it listed under the super-trope as well. That's what I thought the guideline was, at any rate. What's the right thing to do here about this entry? Is there a sub/super trope thread to ask about this?
- Hypocrite: Raven has a problematic view of family responsibilities. She feels Qrow's abandonment of the Branwen tribe is turning his back on family, but he feels she has no business lecturing him when she abandoned Taiyang and Yang. Qrow tells Yang Raven only contacts him when she wants him; once Yang seeks out Raven so she can take her to Qrow and Ruby, Raven complains about family only visiting when they need something.
openAdult Swim's Yule Log Knight of Cerebus Film
So, I just recently watched Adult Swim Yule Log and I was wondering if I should add that the Yule Log itself became the Knight of Cerebus for the film, since even though the film started off with Pleatherface and his mother murdering a woman and hiding in the log cabin, the film took a darker turn when the Yule Log comes to life and starts murdering people.
openRole Ending Misdemeanor question
Hello. While I'm trying to trim down some entries on the RoleEndingMisdemeanor.Sports pages (edit history is here
), I'm concerned about the following entry, due to its Wall of Text, Example Indentation and Natter issues:
- On November 19, 2004, the infamous Malice at The Palace of Auburn Hills
incident occurred when Indiana Pacers forward Ron Artest fouled Detroit Pistons center Ben Wallace very hard. Wallace took exception to the foul and punched Artest, which led to an on-court altercation (which are not uncommon in the NBA, and depending on the severity of it, usually lead to either one or multiple-game suspensions). That fight was soon broken up and while Artest was lying on the scorer's table to cool off, he was suddenly struck with a cup of Diet Coke by a fan named John Green (who was ultimately banned from attending Pistons home games for life alongside Charlie Haddad, Alvin Shackleford, William Paulson, John Ackerman, Bryant Jackson, and Ben Wallace's brother, David Wallace). Artest charged into the stands and attacked another fan named Michael Ryan (who ultimately was spared from the same banned fate despite looking like a prominent figure at the time), who Artest thought attacked him at first. The incident quickly grew out of control as multiple players from both teams (such as Rasheed Wallace (no relation to Ben Wallace), Richard Hamilton, Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal), as well as former Pistons player Rick Mahorn (who was the team's radio analyst at the time) charged into the stands and began to fight off the fans. The game was called with 45.9 seconds to go (being the only NBA game to be called off early while still having time on the clock), with the Pacers getting credited with the win (they were leading by 15 points when the original incident occurred, meaning a comeback by Detroit was highly improbable anyway). Unsurprisingly, the incident gave the NBA a huge black eye. Nine players were suspended for a total of 146 games, with Artest justifiably being hit the hardest: Ron was suspended from the remainder of that season (86 games: 73 in the regular season and 13 in the playoffs). Ben Wallace, for his part, was suspended for six games, while other players from both teams (including Artest) were hit with suspensions and legal ramifications as well, such as fines, probation, and anger management classes. Some of the other biggest suspensions relating to that event included Pacers players Stephen Jackson getting 30 games and Jermaine O'Neal originally getting 25 games before appealing it down to 15 games. As of 2023, this incident leaves a very bitter taste in the mouths of Pacers fans, as it costed star player Reggie Millernote Who was a participant in the incident, but not in the game itself because of injury; he was suspended for one game. his last chance at a title, as he retired after that season. What makes it especially bitter for Pacers fans was that they were knocked out of the Playoffs that season by the Pistons in the semifinals.
- Over two years later, a fight that was compared to the infamous Malice at The Palace of Auburn Hills (with some individuals thinking it was worse at the time) occurred at the Madison Square Garden on December 16, 2006. Near the end of that day's game, New York Knicks guard Mardy Collins committed a flagrant two foul (which leads to an ejection of the player that caused what's considered intentional harm against another player, as well as two free-throws and possession of the ball for the team that had the player harmed at the time) on Denver Nuggets guard J.R. Smith, which caused both teams' line-ups that were playing by that time (including Nuggets star forward Carmelo Anthony) to fight against each other on both sides of the court, to the point where they even reached the stands at one point. Everyone who participated in the fight was ejected from the game and replaced with different players from both teams throughout the last minute and fifteen seconds left in the game. In the end, seven players from both teams were suspended for a total of 47 games and lost wages of $1.2 million. However, the three biggest perpetrators of the event (Anthony, Smith, and the Knicks' Nate Robinson) were the only players to get suspensions any longer than six games (which was what Collins got for instigating the event in the first place) due to them utilizing actions that made the event much worse than what it probably should have been, with Robinson and Smith both getting 10 games and Carmelo losing 15 games. Carmelo Anthony later suggested the reason his suspension was the longest was because commissioner David Stern wanted to set an example for the rest of the NBA to not cause more brawls like this to go down ever again.
I tried separating and re-alphabetizing the two entries, but they were merged back. Since I don't want to get involved in an Edit War, any thoughts on what to do here?
Edited by gjjonesopenLong Period EditWar on Character page for Katsuki Bakugo that I unknowingly contributed to.
On March 5th, 2022
, Million Hypotheses removed the trope The Not-Love Interest from My Hero Academia - Katsuki Bakugo with no edit reason.
- The Not-Love Interest: For Midoriya. Bakugo is one of Midoriya's primary motivators and sources of inspiration, and saving or helping him has been Midoriya's primary motivation in four arcs,note The Introduction, Final Exams, Forest Training Camp, and Hideout Raid Arcs as well as the reason behind their second fight. Midoriya even reacts with goofy smiles when Bakugo praises him after their second fight and worries about him during the Joint Training Arc and both refer to each other by childish nicknames. Insulting Bakugo to Midoriya's face is a good way to make Midoriya fly off the handle, and due to Midoriya's Psychoactive Powers is extremely dangerous.
On August 13th, 2022
, Rebel Falcon (Me) removed the entry, unknowingly for the second time, citing trope misuse with the following edit reason.
On October 2nd, 2022
, spaceforests restored the entry again, which has since remained untouched aside from the following addition to the entry.
Once again, I had no idea I was perpetuating an Edit War, and originally came to ATT thinking spaceforests had started an Edit War by restoring the entry after I removed it, only to learn about the prior removal and addition beforehand.
Regardless though, I do feel the entry itself is trope misuse, as none of the details cited are traits exclusive to the love interest, when one of the parameters of the trope is "This trope often represents a Subversion of one or more Love Interest tropes, or tropes that normally lead to a character becoming a Love Interest, such as Rescue Romance.", and multiple traits listed are just traits Izuku Midoriya has as a character overall, especially since he does have traits exclusive to his canonical love interest, Ochako Uraraka, that he doesn't share with anyone else, like their Twice Shy behavior, or being able to confide in one another in a way they can't do with anyone else like in their shared desire to save villains but thinking it makes them weird to everyone else.
...And I know it's begging, but please don't suspend me for this! I swear to God that I didn't know it was an already existing Edit War back when I removed it, and now that I do know I openly declare I would have never removed it had I known without going to ATT first! I can even offer evidence I was just focusing on the trope misuse! I had brought it up on the forum
when someone accused me of removing it out of spite, and was told by a mod then and there to keep it to ATT.

Troper nargleinfestation (joined in Jan 2023, three pages of edits) has rewritten Creator.JK Rowling's intro today، cutting most of the ROCEJ thread's agreed phrasing re her trans rights stance, as well as the intro's reference to some of the problematic/racist tropes identified in her work.
Previous version, as agreed on the ROCEJ thread:
New version:
The page has a ROCEJ conment, which didn't say tropers must consult the thread, but cautioned against significant unilateral edits.
The Write What You Know example on the page was also amended to remove direct mention of Rowling's views on trans rights.
This intro change has now been reverted and a notifier has been sent.
A couple of hours after the notifier they also added lengthy Common Knowledge examples to YMMV.The Ink Black Heart and YMMV.Troubled Blood which also read a little defensive about Rowling.
The view on the ROCEJ thread was that this should be flagged here, so bringing it to ATT as recommended.
Edited by Mrph1