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openEditing issues
(Apologies if this seems rambly, but I've been trying to figure out how best to word things for more than a week at this point)
Player 8950's edits tend to have poor grammar and can fall into natter territory, but perhaps most pertinently, back around October they were making extensive edits to pages in the FanonPokedex namespace without going through the attendant PEFE thread beforehand for consensus.
I informed them of this via DM (In the midst of spending the better part of an hour to an hour and a half reverting everything), and they were further told within the thread itself, but the edits to the pages they've made since have not only often had the same issues of not going through the thread first before doing significant changes (Which I've also had to revert), and many still have the aforementioned grammatical issues, even the ones that are technically a single sentence feel like they're definitely going against the spirit of the rules if not the absolute letter.
Most recently, in FanonPokedex.Pikablu, I ended up reverting
edits they made which hadn't been approved by the thread, only for them to put some of it back
without thread discussion, so at this point I think it's best to bring it here because otherwise I'll be continuing to play whack-a-mole and it's similar enough that I think just removing it would border on edit war.
openWhere do I have to go to first before I propose an example for a page quote?
I want to include dialogue from The One as a page quote for Kill One, Others Get Stronger.
The man you've been seeing, the "you, " he was an MVA agent. Once on assignment he was forced to defend himself against a form of himself you from another universe. He killed him. In doing so, part of the other's life energy transferred to him. Made him stronger. Made all of you stronger. Each time he kills one of you, the energy divides among the survivors.
- — Funsch explains to Gabe the plot of The One.
resolved Agenda Based Editing on pages for Code Geass. Anime
Reddish Guy 1 is once again
conducting agenda based editing
for Code Geass, depicting the Britannian Characters as if they were solely black in terms of morality and changing things to reflect that including removing sympathetic tropes from several characters, while adding YMMV entries suggesting opinion for Noble Demon characters being unsympathetic is widespread despite there be little indication of this outside of the Base-Breaking Character Cornelia. What's more, they attempt to justify this by claiming this site thinks the series is Black-and-Gray Morality, but if the series itself is said to be Grey-and-Gray Morality, then that is what is supposed to be troped, with the idea its not that falling under Unintentionally tropes and Misaimed Fandom. And yes, it is meant to be seen as Grey-and-Gray Morality since the showrunners and even the actors have said as much, with them going on record as stating Cornelia and Suzaku are two of the most moral characters in the show, and they consider Lelouch to be irredeemable. For objective troping, authorial intent is important to note. Whether it worked or not would be covered in YMMV. I've sent them a notifier directing them to this thread, but this needs to be addressed as this is the second time now this situation has needed to be brought up to ATT.
resolved Rules Check: Can FlameBait be potholed in trope descriptions referencing the concept?
From Drama Bomb:
This sentence is problematic, because it brings up a controversial issue unnecessarily and without warning. I think it can be fixed by making the sentence pothole to Flame Bait instead of referencing any specific inflammatory topic.
I would have done this myself, but I know there's rules against potholing to sensitive tropes. I brought this to the ROCEJ thread [1]
. ~Azorius 24 responded with a specific suggestion on how to fix this sentence, which looks good to me, but they don't know if potholing to Flame Bait is allowed either.
openX-Men '97: MCU or not? Western Animation
So......time to go back to that annoying question once again: Do we put X-Men '97 back in the Multiverse Saga timeline on the franchise page?
For: It's made by Marvel Studios. It's included on the timeline and section on Disney+ as an official part of the MCU. A variant of TAS/97 Storm will be featured on an episode of What If season 3.
Against: Beau DeMayo went on record to state '97 isn't a part of the MCU.
My take: Studios tend to have the final say, and creators can sometimes be full of crap. James Gunn was adamant that Daredevil and the Netflix shows weren't canon. Soooo... welp on that one. There's also the fact that DeMayo was fired for being a giant dick and sex pest, so Marvel/Disney don't really want to ride on his word as the Word of God - going so far as even striking him from the credits going forward. The creator himself said nay, but there's seemingly more weight to the yay.
resolved Wrong namespace? Web Original
I was looking through the videos on the VideoExamples.Super Mario Bros page for potential videos that could be kept there, when I came across JustForFun.SMB Plumbing page.
At first I thought, "okay, this is a troper trying to have fun with that Advertising Campaign / ARG website where it's like it's going to the in-universe website where Mario and Luigi are running it"
But then I looked at it and saw it cataloged the actual thing the website was and how it worked both in and out of universe (the page itself might need some cleanup).
I couldn't find a forum thread immediately for a problem like this, but am I correct in thinking this shouldn't be a Just for Fun page, and should go to a different namespace like a Website?
openAvoiding an edit war to make some corrections to an entry Western Animation
Recently, AK47Productions edited an entry I had added to Self-Demonstrating.Alastor, under the reasoning of cleaning up Word Cruft.
This is the entry before their edit:
- Well, look who we got here, His Infernal Majesty from another Hell different to the one of my universe! I first heard of you from Niffty wanting your bizarre lobster claw hands, and yes, you look completely bizarre, down to your appeal of dressing up like a woman. And while your fighting prowess is admittedly impressive, it's squandered to the ground by the fact that you just keep trying to take over one specific city only to lose to a trio of weird futuristic experimental "children" (and on one occasion, their fusion with their similarly youthful prototype, even after you've shown capable of mind-controlling that prototype if only for a little while) over and over again, when you have a whole Earth and universe to conquer at your will. Let me ask you a question: Do you ever think outside the box like I always do? Not to mention that you vehemently refuse to use your real name...
After the edit:
- Well, look who we got here, His Infernal Majesty from another Hell different my own! I first heard of you from Niffty wanting your bizarre lobster claw hands, and yes, you look completely bizarre, down to your appeal of dressing up like Angel on the stage. And you squander your powers by trying to take over one specific city over and over again, only to lose to a trio of lab rats masquerading as children when you have a whole Earth and universe to conquer at your will. Let me ask you a question: Do you ever think outside the box like I do? Not to mention that you vehemently refuse to use your real name...
While I don't mind the condensation and removal of redundant wording they did, they accidentally left behind a grammar error and removed a bit of context that the entry cited, which I'd like to correct like this plus some more additions of mine (changes are in bold):
- Well, look who we got here, His Infernal Majesty from another Hell different to my own! I first heard of you from Niffty wanting your bizarre lobster claw hands, and yes, you look completely bizarre, down to your appeal of dressing up like Angel on the stage. And you squander your powers by trying to take over one specific city over and over again, only to lose to a quartet of lab rats masquerading as children and an adolescent when you have a whole Earth and universe to conquer at your will. Let me ask you a question: Do you ever think outside the box like I do? Not to mention that you vehemently refuse to use your real name...note HIM: YOU DARE CRITICIZE MY FLAMBOYANT SENSE OF FASHION AND INSULT ME FOR ONLY WANTING TO WRECK HAVOC IN TOWNSVILLE AND NOWHERE ELSE, MUCH LESS HUMILIATE ME FOR CONSTANTLY LOSING TO THOSE PESKY GIRLS YOU CALL "LAB RATS" WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT THEY CAN DO?!?! I ASSURE YOU THAT YOU'LL FACE THE WRATH OF THE EVILEST OF EVIL!!!! Alastor: Heh, if you're so confident about it, I'd dare you to say that to Princess Morningstar or her father...
Do I have permission to go ahead with these proposed corrections and additions without problem, or is there something I have to change?
Edited by Inky100resolved Misuse of Archive namespace.
Today, miwaco has created Archive.Kaiserreich Legacy Of The Weltkrieg, which is associated with VideoGame.Kaiserreich Legacy Of The Weltkrieg. The edit reasons and the page itself claim that it's there to "hold the various tropes on Kaiserreich that are no longer true in the current versions of the mod", which is not what the Archive/ namespace is for. It should be for stuff that mods create never to be edited again.
This issue reminds me of a recent ATT
that reported another page created in Archive/.
resolved Auto Erotic Troping: Example Web Original
Recently stumbled upon this page which was blatantly and unashamedly made by the author in question, and it was recommended that I raise the issue here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/DarkFlameWolf
Is there any way we can tidy this up, or least make it a bit less...self-congratulatory? They've even included two completely unnecessary 'accomplishments' folders, and the entire article just reads like self-promotion. Someone has already deleted all the links to their social media pages, but it's still a very unprofessional article which I think deviates just a little too far from community standards.
openWMG Entry regarding women
I was browsing the WMG page for Mobile Suit Gundam 00 and saw this
Spelling errors aside, does this read to anyone else that whoever added this is uh....projecting somewhat? It does read like an attack driven from personal bias. Then again, I'm autistic, maybe it's just me being sensitive. I apologize if this is a waste of time.
openAbsurdly gushy self-promotion creator page
Was alerted to this by a misplaced Content Policy thread.
Dark Flame Wolf seems to have been made by the fanfic writer and game modder it's about, and it's a mess.
I'm going to go ahead and cut the YMMV page since the only example is misuse, but what about the rest?
Edited by StarSwordopenCombining Character Sheets?
Hello. I made this ATT entry and no one answered. I think I understand why, because my description was way too vague without any proofs to make you guys see what I'm actually proposing.
(That thing has been locked)
So, after a discussion with another troper who also have been editing MOBA character pages, he gave me some input, I worked on some Sandbox pages for the months to come. And I'd like to re-open this discussion.
Proposal: I want to combine the character sheets of Honor of Kings and Arena of Valor
Reasons
- Honor of Kings received a global release.
- Both Honor of Kings and Arena of Valor are created by both Tencent Games and TiMi.
- There has been an update in lore that the world both games took place have been reimagined as 'neighboring regions' (Honor of Kings' world is called Primaela, whereas Arena of Valor's world is called Athanor)
- Both Honor of Kings and Arena of Valor have lent their characters to each other. So we can see some HOK characters being playable in AOV and vice versa. So we now have characters overlapping with each other.
- A lot of characters of Arena of Valor have their moveset taken from Honor of Kings with some small tweaks, creating 'counterparts' between two games without too much of being expies.
Here are the Sandbox pages:
I will still continue to work on these Sandboxes for other things, like making each folders more complete and of course, the GRAMMAR (Yes, once all folders are filled, I will run through the grammar check to all pages myself). But one vital question remains...
Is this an okay thing in TV Tropes? I'd like to know so I don't end up making all future works end up for nothing. (If this is not okay, then I will just share what I worked on to the default pages and modify appropriately, even if there will be similar entries.)
Thank you!
Edited by ChrisXopenReplacement Aesop items?
Clueless Aesop was cut, so I ask if these parts/examples can be moved elsewhere.
"A Fantastic Aesop or Space Whale Aesop can attempt to teach a lesson through allegory, only to introduce issues that undercut the applicability (e.g., "don't judge people by their race" in a show with Always Chaotic Evil races)." I believe this can be moved to Broken Aesop, correct?
* This is why the "Fighting is wrong!" aesop that 4kids forced upon Pokémon: The First Movie fell flat, since this is a series where everything is resolved by way of Pokémon battle. The Japanese version had a completely different aesop: the circumstances of one's birth don't make them any more or less important than someone else. The irony is that the censored version was far closer to Shudo's intended portrayal which was scrapped in favor of the version the finalized Japanese version used. The dub of Mewtwo Strikes Back—Evolution is Truer to the Text and follows the Japanese version's Aesop.
- The "2014 Equestria Girls Holiday Special" tackles the subject of cyber-bullying showing it has serious, lasting consequences. This is undermined by said consequences becoming an Informed Attribute as ultimately everything gets Easily Forgiven par for the series, a Happy Ending par for the genre, and goes without consequence or mention outside the issue par for the comics. It also had little to do with the holidays. The one argument against Broken Aesop is it does have stated but Informed Attribute consequences. Is it Broken if at odds with the feel of the ending as opposed to objective facts of it, or is it being at odds with what's objectively shown enough to count?
- The "Hydra Cap" storyline in Secret Empire, in which Captain America is revealed to be a secret fascist, was meant to show how even good people can be seduced by hate. But the whole thing was the result of a Cosmic Retcon by the villain as opposed to anything pertaining to Captain America, who was created by two Jewish men to promote their anti-Nazi views. The vagueness of the book on what Hydra actually believes is nullified by the extensive Putting on the Reich imagery. Many other plot details (like having Scarlet Witch, a Romani, join the fascists) and the accidental white supremacist imagery created by having Fash-Cap wielding Mjolnir (Thor's Hammer being a symbol used by many real-world hate groups), combine to show the setting wasn't suitable and the writers too clueless about the subject to handle it tactfully much less intelligently enough to make a valid point. Is it being revealed to be caused by Cosmic Retcon subverting the original intent Broken Aesop or Lost Aesop?
- My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic:
- "Over a Barrel":
- In-universe. Pinkie Pie decides to sing a song about sharing in order to get the bison and the cowponies to get along and agree. They do agree... on this being the worst performance they'd ever seen. Brought up again when the bison are about to call off the attack, but Pinkie Pie celebrates by singing another verse, enraging them and causing them to attack anyway.
- "Feeling Pinkie Keen": Lauren Faust has spoken about regretting the way the episode was handled. The intended aesop was "you should be open to different ideas and ways of perceiving the world, even if you don't particularly understand them." It unintentionally came off as "Atheists/scientists/skeptics are jerks and are demonstrably wrong." This could more or less be a realistic scenario in the sense of how science and logic aren't always the best ways to come up with an answer, but considering it's being applied in a show that regularly uses magic and spells to do a multitude of everyday tasks, it seemed like splitting hairs.
- "A Hearth's Warming Tail" is Yet Another Christmas Carol that, due to Never Say "Die", changes the consequences of the Scrooge-expy from causing death and dying unloved to Wendigos causing Endless Winter. Besides being an unrealistic consequence, it dilutes the True Meaning of Christmas Aesop since its importance is shown less as a question of morals and self-destruction but instead as a necessary ritual to prevent The End of the World as We Know It.
- "Fame and Misfortune" has the Mane 6 publish their friendship journal, which develops a Misaimed Fandom who make their lives miserable. The episode was intended as a Take That! towards invokeda certain part of the show's Periphery Demographic, but the difference between what the writer was meant to criticize (real people complaining about fictional characters who cannot be directly affected by their words) and what's portrayed in the show (characters harassing other characters who are just as real as they are) keeps the message from working perfectly. Add scenes where obvious strawmen complain about things like Twilight Sparkle becoming a princess and Fluttershy having Aesop Amnesia, things which are perfectly reasonable complaints about a fictional series but only become wrong when aimed at real people (in other words, a completely different scenario), and the Aesop turns from "don't be part of the Fan Dumb" to "having any criticism or disagreement about the show is wrong". The writer M.A. Larson considers this episode an Old Shame, to the point he not only leaves it off his filmography but went so far as to ask fans of the episode to not praise him for writing it, but Executive Meddling kept him from addressing the flaws.
- "Surf and/or Turf" has an allegory for divorce/separation; Terramar's father returning to being a hippogriff on Mount Aris and mother remain a seapony underwater in Seaquestria with Terramar torn between choosing with whom and which lifestyle to live and learning they'd both still love him despite his choice. But the show's kid-friendly nature meant downplaying the seriousness (the parents remain on good terms, Terramar choosing to live with both as they're within walking distance and he can magically change between hippogriff/seapony on a whim) such it never addresses the consequences one in this situation realistically would have to deal with.
- "Over a Barrel":
- OK K.O.! Let's Be Heroes: "Let's Not Be Skeletons" tries to have an anti-gun aesop, except: one, the show takes place in a universe where many characters have natural powers which are often equivalent in their danger to a gun, including characters who are explicitly villainous, meaning having a gun for protection makes even more sense in their world; and two, the gun analog doesn't actually kill or even harm in any way except turning people into living skeletons, making it more a nuisance than an actual threat. Not helping is that whenever a character brings up a good argument in favor of the controlers, it just gets ignored.
- A case of this due to Values Dissonance caused the Peppa Pig episode "Mister Skinnylegs" to be stricken from Australian airwaves. The plot of the episode is that spiders shouldn't be considered scary and are okay to have in the house. While that works fine in the show's native Britain and in North America, it's unacceptable in Australia because the country is loaded with venomous spiders, and actually includes some of the most dangerous spiders in the world.note To put this in perspective, a short list of "dangerous Australian spiders" would include the ubiquitous Red-Back Spider (a Black Widow with anger management issues), the White-Tailed Spider (highly venomous, and suspected of being the infamous "necrotizing spider", a spider whose bite causes your flesh to start rotting away whilst you're still alive) and the Sydney Funnelweb (a highly aggressive pseudo-tarantula known to have the most powerful venom in the world). Understandably, Australians don't particularly want small children to think it's okay to play with these things. Just Values Dissonance? Anything else?
The Aesop cleanup thread has been inactive for months so asking here first.
resolved Original RayFox gone and a reboot present. Webcomic
So...I've noticed something, and I am treating this is a sensitive matter since this could be a case of Bury Your Art, so I want to handle this as carefully as possible and discuss with you guys.
Around early October of this year, the 9th I think, I noticed that the entirety of the original comic pages for RayFox are now gone and are not accessible except through archives on the author's website (which itself does not let you access the old comic), and even then, it is missing the 6th chapter. As far as I know the original pages are, for all intents-and-purposes, lost to the ages and don't seem to be anywhere else.
While I have read the original pages enough to be able to add more trope entries to the page if I wanted to, there's still one factor that needs to be acknowledged; The work has been made inaccessible to the public and may remain so for the foreseeable future. It might be accessible through a paywall and there are physical copies of the comics (particularly chapters 1 & 2) that have been sold as far as I know, but again, I'm not sure that entirely counts as publicly accessible.
I've not been keeping a close eye on this nor is developing a page for the reboot an interest of mine at the moment, as I'm busy on working on a TLP (and eyeing on adopting another after I finish my current one), but I am curious as to what happens next...What does that mean for the page itself? Does the page for the old comic still stay up until further notice?
And hypothetically speaking, if I were to cover the reboot, would a separate tab for the reboot being on the same page be more appropriate? Or would a separate page be better? (If the latter, I'll toy around in my sandbox with the idea someday)
Edited by Stardust5099openPermission to re-remove
A troper
was suspended over unjust deletions/rude edit reasons and their deletions reversed. I feel some of those deletions were valid as misuse.
Characters.Sonic The Hedgehog Modern Era Antagonists 1 Mainline Games:
- Asshole Victim: His mental state and eventual second defeat in Shadow Generations is rather poignant and even pitiful. But given what he did in his debut game, he deserved every moment of it. Even if Shadow doesn't know Mephiles anymore, he concludes just from the fact that the first thing Mephiles did was try to kill him upon their meeting that a creature like him cannot be allowed to exist, for the sake of the world Maria loved. They we’re trying to kill Shadow who retaliated in self-defense, so fails the "Victim" criteria.
- Hate Sink: Mephiles has absolutely zero redeeming qualities, and in his debut game he damn well earned his place among the fanbase as the single most evil villain in the whole franchise, because he managed to do the one thing none of the others (outside of maybe Surge from the IDW Comics) have managed: he killed Sonic the Hedgehog in the final act of his debut appearance. Misuse as while utterly evil, played as Evil Is Cool (such the only well received part of Sonic 06), failing explain how/why he was meant to avert/subvert coolness.
Characters.The Texas Chainsaw Massacre:
- Hate Sink: Unlike Leatherface and Drayton, who only kill for food and survival, Nubbins is just a sadistic bastard who revels in the suffering of his victims. Only issue is already under sub-trope More Despicable Minion. Is that grounds for removal (like we do Jerkass if its sub-tropes apply)?
I asked Is this an example?
But got no feedback. Is it OK to re-delete them for these reasons, or any
other thoughts?
openCreator's Pet misuse/complaining? Print Comic
I was looking at the CreatorsPet.Marvel Universe page, and I noticed a lengthy entry regarding multiple characters from Avengers Arena and Avengers Undercover — namely the Braddock Academy kids (mostly Apex and Anachronism), Cammi, and Arcade. Judging by a previous example removal on the page, I'm not sure if the examples qualify for the trope, and indeed at least some of it seems like complaining; on the other hand, bias on my part (let's just say I loathed Arena and Undercover in part because of some of the reasons listed in the example) is making me second-guess removing it. So I figured it'd probably better if I got a more neutral party to clarify whether or not it qualifies as misuse/complaining, because I don't think I can trust myself to make that decision.
resolved Is there a limit to the scope of a Crapsack World?
As in, if the setting is primarily limited to a city, can that city be both a Wretched Hive (the city itself) and a Crapsack World (the general setting)?
openSome odd phrasings on UsefulNotes.BDSM
So this paragraph on UsefulNotes.BDSM is worded a little oddly-
"A century later, these words had picked up some quite different and quite negative meanings. "Sadism" was used as a generic slur for being a malicious jerk or utter monster who enjoys making others suffer, while "masochism" was used as a similar slur to brand people as self-destructive. A popular excuse for refusing to help victims of Domestic Abuse was to brand them "masochists", implying that they merely pretended to not enjoy the beatings, just to get attention. These days, these creepy secondary meanings are losing power as actual sadism and masochism is becoming more and more socially accepted."
Firstly, "sadistic" and "masochistic" are slurs? This paragraph (and the one before it) is correct that "sadistic" and "masochistic" are derived from Marquis de Sade and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch and initially meant only their sexual contexts, but there's this thing called "definition drift", they mean two things now. I've never heard anyone else get offended if someone talks about "a sadistic tyrant" or calls someone a masochist for continuing to watch a show long into its Seasonal Rot. Moreover, a "slur" is not just any word that isn't a compliment. I've never seen any style guide that considers any use of the words "sadistic" or "masochistic" outside of the context of a consensual relationship as offensive or outdated.
Furthermore, I don't think they're falling out of fashion as words outside of BDSM contexts. Here are two news articles from major outlets
from the past month that use these words right in their title.
We have tropes like Sadistic Choice, Soft-Spoken Sadist, Masochist's Meal, and The Masochism Tango, all of which use the quote-unquote "creepy" meanings, and no one's ever complained.
This seems like it was written by a troper with an axe to grind (a whip to crack?) and is personally offended by uses of these words outside consensual BDSM contexts, and doesn't seem like it's a common sentiment among the wider BDSM community. Permission to rewrite?

Yesterday, Tropers/This_One_Sara added
an Unintentionally Unsympathetic sub-entry on the YMMV page for Dragon Age: The Veilguard regarding the character Taash in the scene where they come out as Non-Binary to their mother, Shathann.
I removed
the entry, giving an admittedly lengthy edit reason in the process, due to feeling that it was misrepresenting what happened during the scene, claiming that Taash lashed out "immediately", when it reality it didn't happen until towards the end of the conversation, after they had reached their breaking point as a result of:
1) The stress that often comes with coming out to a parent (made evident by Taash's hesitance to come out to Shathann both prior to this scene and right before they say they're Non-Binary)
2) Shathann seemingly not being supportive of them (saying in a stern tone "If this is because I criticized your dress or your manners..." right after Taash comes out to her and explains what being Non-Binary is, and then suggesting to Taash, in that same stern tone, that they might be "aqun-athlok" (for context, in the Qunari language, that's the term for someone who doesn't identify as their birth gender, which would be accurate if it weren't for the fact that, in Qunari culture, people's gender identities are determined by their roles within the Qun, which are designated as being either male or female, so being Non-Binary is a foreign concept to the Qun, meaning that as far as the Qun is concerned, there are only trans men and trans women, so Shathann was essentially suggesting to Taash that they might be a trans man, even though they had already explained to her that they don't identify as a man or a woman) and then telling them "Shokra toh ebra" (a Qunari phrase that translates to "You must struggle with who you are", which is meant to be a phrase of encouragement to find yourself, but Taash doesn't learn that until the end of their questline, which hasn't happened yet, so from Taash's perspective it sounds like Shathann is telling them to just put up with their gender dysphoria, which is not helped by the fact that Shathann is still speaking in a stern tone) and it is only then that Taash finally lashes out).
The entry also tried to use Shathann's cultural upbringing as an excuse for why they couldn't understand the concept of being Non-Binary after it was explained to her in the simplest, most easy to understand way possible, due to it being a foreign concept to her culture, even though she gave Taash that same cultural upbringing and they understand the concept just fine.
I have just seen that Tropers/This_One_Sara has re-added
the entry without discussion, and in doing so, has started an edit war.
Edited by CorvusIX