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openNeed some clarifications on what counts as "Unilateral" Large-scale changes nowadays.
I've read this Administrivia page out of curiosity at first, but then I noticed entry #34 which says the following:
:34. unilateral
- Hi there. It looks like you've made a major change to [page] without discussing it beforehand. Large-scale changes, such as splitting off subpages, rearranging content, or altering the definition of a trope, require consensus to enact. In the future, please remember to discuss these things in the proper venue, whether it be Ask The Tropers, the discussion page, or a forum thread.
Does this mean all "Large-scale changes" will risk the editor receiving a warning or a "unilateral" edit notifier? Or are there times when a troper is allowed to make Unilateral Large-Scale changes without the risk of getting reported or notified?
- AFAIK, splitting a page if it gets too long is a very common thing to do in this wiki for years now, to the point where it's "recommended" so as to avoid the page from having any difficulty loading on old browsers or devices.
- I am following a lot of pages and I've seen tropers splitting off example lists into subpages but without providing any links in the edit reasons to prove that the action was "discussed" beforehand... But now, reading the Administrivia page implies it's "mandatory" to have a discussion somewhere before doing the split? What if the troper simply fixed or re-organized the examples into a separate subpage for easier readability, surely they're exempt from receiving warnings, right? For example, a troper moved all the Memetic Mutation entries from the YMMV page
of Zenless Zone Zero into a separate subpage
... There's no edit reason nor a link to a previous discussion, but the end-result of this "unilateral" edit is a well-organized page just like the other Memes subpages of miHoYo games.
- I am following a lot of pages and I've seen tropers splitting off example lists into subpages but without providing any links in the edit reasons to prove that the action was "discussed" beforehand... But now, reading the Administrivia page implies it's "mandatory" to have a discussion somewhere before doing the split? What if the troper simply fixed or re-organized the examples into a separate subpage for easier readability, surely they're exempt from receiving warnings, right? For example, a troper moved all the Memetic Mutation entries from the YMMV page
- Here's another thing... that Adminstrivia page says consensus, discussions, or forum threads are necessary... but what if nobody is replying to a discussion?
- For example, IIRC, I tried to start discussions for suggesting large-scale reorganizations or improvements to pages of works and franchises like Devil May Cry, Arknights, Honkai Impact 3rd, Honkai: Star Rail, Genshin Impact, Granblue Fantasy, Bayonetta, and so on... Sometimes a troper replies to say it's just fine if I already do the edits myself, but sometimes nobody replied to my posts for a long time, such as this one
. This often happens if the franchise or game is no longer "hyped" at the moment and thus, only few tropers here are still actively or regularly checking the pages.
- For example, IIRC, I tried to start discussions for suggesting large-scale reorganizations or improvements to pages of works and franchises like Devil May Cry, Arknights, Honkai Impact 3rd, Honkai: Star Rail, Genshin Impact, Granblue Fantasy, Bayonetta, and so on... Sometimes a troper replies to say it's just fine if I already do the edits myself, but sometimes nobody replied to my posts for a long time, such as this one
- On the other hand, can I still do a Large-scale change on a page or example list even if the discussion already happened long ago but the troper(s) somehow forgot about it?
- For example years ago, there has been an agreement to re-organize a Shout-Out page so that it won't look like a massive wall of text, or an approval from a mod to move trope examples from the main work page to the Recap pages... but it just so happened that I was pre-occupied with a lot of things off-site, and was unable to do the large-scale change... Can I just simply cite a link to the discussion from years ago, or do I have to start a "new" discussion or forum post instead?
Edited by DanteVin
openStrange wording for the Adaptational Nice Guy trope under Ranma Saotome Character folder
So, I checked out the Ranma ½: Ranma Saotome page and under the Adaptational Nice Guy section, the examples seemed to be showcase in a weird way. Like there's a lot of run on sentences and the examples seem to be all over the place. Here's what the entry says:
- Adaptational Nice Guy : Zigzagged. While the 89 anime cuts out most of his teasing to Akane, it also tends to add extra insults as filler, making Ranma rattle off whole lists of insults completely unprompted and doubling down on originally silly, short comments, so that it comes across like he genuinely means the insults he tosses Akane's way. The fact that the insults often come unprompted ironically makes Ranma look meaner in the end, despite there being less of them than in the manga.
- With the "you should learn to be half as sexy as I am" comment with the pictures Nabiki sold Kunō, the '89 anime adds a scene of him going "All I did was tell her the truth!" and later, "You're following me around hoping my good looks will rub off on you." This makes Ranma call Akane ugly on top of "unsexy" and imply he means it when he says Akane's ugly, completely contradicting how it's later implied the exact opposite (as he blushes watching Akane play sports right before denying she's cute, and then tries to talk himself out of it on the way home).
- In the filler episode "Pelvic Fortune Telling", Ranma rattles off an entire list of insults completely unprompted and even starts singing about it. Note that Ranma only lists off insults in the manga twice: when they barely knew each other and he was trying to convince Kunō he wasn't interested in Akane, and when he was trying to cure Akane's Shampoo-inflicted Laser-Guided Amnesia. The '89 anime has Ranma do this far more often.
Ranma: Akane... CONGRATULATIONS! You can't cook, you're not much of a looker — the one thing you do have is brute strength! Plus, you have got the biggest pair of hips in all of Japan! You're built like a brick... Your legs are too thick... You're singing the big hip blues...
openRegarding Spoiler Policy for characters in Naruto Anime
Regarding Characters.Naruto, while checking for example, Pain's page, it shows in the description itself a lot about his past and motivations which are revealed quite late into the arc having his decisive fight, and in Madara's folder, in his description, the exact specifics of his defeat are written in great detail.
These are just two examples out of many, and in the folders, there are marked and unmarked spoilers with irregularity. Now, Naruto is an old anime, so I wanted to ask whether to remove the excruciating details in the description and spoiler out the spoilery details, or just leave them alone?
Edited by kuchiki222openAmerican / British Spelling
If a user creates a work page and uses British conventions (dd-mm-yyyy date format and British spellings) on a first come, first served basis (as noted here
), why some users try to fix it to American conventions (mm-dd-yyyy and American spellings)?
The date format topic itself was already mentioned here in this thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16448794840A29114500&page=1
openAudience Alienating Ending, last call before removing
Awhile ago I asked about these Audience-Alienating Ending examples from Pokémon Adventures, which I believe are misuse as AAE only applies to series endings not individual arcs. I'll remove these as at odds with all other examples unless I hear anything here otherwise.
- Ruby & Sapphire ends with The Reveal that Ruby owned a Celebi before the series even began, Celebi then proceeds to destroy the Blue and Red Orbs, thwarting the plans of Team Magma and Team Aqua in the process. Celebi even uses its time travel powers to bring the innocents who died throughout the apocalyptic event Back from the Dead. While the characters introduced in this story remain widely popular, the actual story is among the most contentious in the franchise for this blatant Deus ex Machina ending. I've seen enough endings that don't fit AAE as not series endings listed under Overshadowed by Controversy to deem that a valid replacement.
- The last volume of the Black & White chapter has Black sealed away in the Light Stone alongside Reshiram thanks to a Last Breath Bullet from Ghetsis. Ghetsis then proceeds to escape as the Light Stone vanishes with Black still inside. This caused many people to turn on the arc for its Cruel Twist Ending, accentuated by how popular of a character Black was. While the intention was for the cliffhanger to be resolved in the Black 2 & White 2 adaptation, that arc fell under an infamous case of Schedule Slip as a result of newer Pokémon games being given priority for publishing. What was supposed to be a short arc that started in 2013, didn't reach its conclusion until early 2020. So for about seven years fans were left with one of the most popular heroes in the series suffering a Fate Worse than Death. Thankfully, this only applies for the original readership, as with the Black 2 & White 2 arc completed new readers won't have to suffer this problem. This is Arc Fatigue instead as it wasn't the ending but the slow pace of the followup story that alienated, and notes AAE no longer applies. I'll cut this if nothing else.
This comment
I got on the matter said "i [sic] will note that Audience-Alienating Ending has individual arcs listed in the main page and the anime subpage". But I looked and the only such arcs were the series finale ones, supporting my belief it only applies to series endings. Did I miss any examples they're referring to?
The one possible example of such I found is this:
- X-Men: The climax of Grant Morrison's New X-Men run features the revelation that the newest member of the X-Men, Xorn, was actually the team's old foe Magneto, who has gone insane from a mind-controlling super-drug and whom Jean Grey sacrifices herself to stop. The final arc abruptly cuts to a Bad Future scenario, which we learn was the end result of Cyclops quitting the X-Men after his wife's death. Jean returns in the future and uses the power of the Phoenix to change the past so that Scott quickly moves on from her death, beginning a relationship with Emma Frost and leading the X-Men alongside her. Many fans found this an anticlimactic ending to such a well-regarded run, especially since Emma's previous attempts to seduce Scott were portrayed as creepy and manipulative, only for their relationship to now suddenly be treated as a good and even outright necessary thing. My impression is this is series within the greater X-Men continuity, whereas the Adventures arcs are treated as "episodes". Correct?
resolved Question about Image Pickin'
If I open a new thread on Image Pickin', do I need to post an image myself as a suggestion on that thread or is that something I leave to the forum team?
resolved Unilateral subpage description changes
So back in March of 2021, it looks like user Fishious Rend changed the descriptions of all the subpages of {Tsundere} over the course of about 15 minutes. All of the changes were from simple explanations like
I cannot find any discussion on this. Should these be reverted?
Edit: Links to the edits:
Live Action TV
Tabletop Games
(I did revert this one when I saw it, before I realize this was on all the pages, and I do apologize if I shouldn't have)
openDoes Straight Gay only apply to men or are women included?
On Characters.Celeste, there's a commented out note
added by scoooool with the following:
This states that Straight Gay only applies to gay men, which is also suggested by the laconic page.
A gay male with no stereotypical gay traits or mannerisms.
However, on the actual page itself, it makes it clear that Straight Gay applies to men and women, with the first paragraph being:
Originally treated as a subversion of the standard gay stereotypes, the Straight Gay is a homosexual male or female character who has no camp mannerisms, Butch Lesbian tendencies, or obviously "gay" affectations.
So which is it? Is Straight Gay supposed to be an Always Male trope or are women included as well?
It's worth noting that the addition of female characters/lesbians to the description was retroactively added
by Emie K 88 in 2023 with no edit reason.
resolved "Wasted" removal, valid?
Mariofan99 removed these from YMMV.Shadow Generations citing cleanup
and "Character cant be wasted if they never show up." But the cleanup said to cut the "Plot" examples, not the "Character" ones they also removed. The removals I have questions about.
- They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character:
- Even though Shadow is sent to Sunset Heights and Infinite is a major villain in that game who despises Shadow, Infinite makes no in-person appearance. Instead, Infinite is only shown and mentioned in the concept art and backstory logs within Shadow's Collection Room. My impression was that even a small reference to them means they're in the work enough to qualify as "Wasted". Does this not count as not an in-narrative ref (the Collection Room is fuzzy on if in-universe)?
- Mephiles, a villain heavily associated with time travel, being the Big Bad or at least a major antagonist in a game revolving around time travel would seem like a no-brainer, yet he plays no greater role in the plot outside of his boss fightnote it's at least implied he has something to do with the Corruption slime that Shadow needs Doom Morph to move around in, as it heavily resembles his shadow creep in both 06 and his boss fight here, but nothing concrete is ever said He does show up. So was he removed as the narrative never hinted he's have a bigger role in the story than just a boss fight? Would this be wasted "Plot" as unused narrative potential, or not as the plot of the boss fight was to stop him before he could become such a threat meaning it was used?
- They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot:
- While the game does a good job of representing Shadow's history in the series over the years (even going so far as to bring back Black Doom and Mephiles), there's a notable lack of a stage representation from Shadow's own game. Considering how much the remaster takes from Shadow the Hedgehog (such as bringing back Black Doom as the main antagonist), it's particularly jarring that the game doesn't get its own stage like Adventure 2 and Heroes do. It's even more jarring because Sonic '06 (which erased itself from existence), Sonic Forces (which takes place later in the timeline) and Sonic Frontiers (which doesn't feature Shadow at all) get returning stages, yet there's no stage from Shadow the Hedgehog despite there being a lot of creative and memorable onesnote For example, Digital Circuit and Mad Matrix, Circus Park, Sky Troops, G.U.N. Fortress, Lava Shelter and Cryptic Castle that could have easily fit the bill. Even the final battle against Devil Doom simply takes place in Radical Highway rather than somewhere like Black Comet, Final Haunt or The Last Way. Since the game is otherwise unashamed about the era Shadow the Hedgehog comes from, it comes across like it's still treated as a lesser entry. Get the criteria for "Characters" needing to be present/alluded to in-work, but what counts as setup for "Plot"? Is the Returning Big Bad and work being the sequel to Shadow not enough setup/allusion for the plots to be considered ignored? If not what is?
- A small point of contention for the story is that the future stages — the ones that take place after the events of Generations from Shadow's perspective — aren't really explored in detail. Shadow never questions what these places are, the only explanation given to their existence is an easily-missed Hand Wave from Gerald, and there's no cameos from those games to go along with them, with many citing Infinite's absence as an especially missed opportunity. Most of the game's stages don't really affect the plot much, but the future stages still give the impression that they were tacked on in comparison; it can't even be justified as representing the games that released between the original Generations and the re-release, as there's no stage for Sonic Lost World to go with them. Misuse because they do get mentions, so they aren't wasted just not used in the way fans wanted?
- Maria (and to a lesser extent, Gerald) never actually get to have any meaningful interactions with Shadow's friends that he's made. While it does make sense given the whole ordeal with the Time Eater's happening at the same time with Black Doom, and the game does try to Hand Wave this by Gerald not wanting to create a paradox, neither of them being able to at least introduce themselves to the likes of Rouge or E-123 Omega could've led to some interesting and heartwarming moments that the story never got the chance to explore. The absolute closest the game gets to featuring any characters interacting with Maria and Gerald is through the optional hub interactions, where Big reveals that he spent time with both of them for a little while, and Omega protecting them off-screen during the final battle. See above two questions.
- Some fans were disappointed that, while there's a cutscene showing Shadow's side of his boss fight with Sonic from the base game, there isn't an actual playable rematch from Shadow's perspective. Not even a simple flip of the original fight's mechanics. Seems like it was setting up a boss fight, only to pull the rug and make it happen in a cutscene. Or was this misuse as wasted "Gameplay", not "Plot"?
resolved Edit war on Characters/MCUWandaMaximoff
A new troper liberty3
removed the following entry
:
- Womanchild: Despite being in her late twenties/early thirties, Wanda acts much like a teenage girl in most of her appearances. She's often seen brooding or is otherwise antisocial in most situations, and she watches old sitcoms like she did as a child to comfort herself in her lowest moments. Justified, given how Wanda hasn't exactly lived what one would call a normal or happy life.
I am not the one who added it in the first place, but I restored it since I believe it is perfectly fine. They removed it again. I sent a message to them and received no reply.
The trope is lampshaded in Captain America: Civil War. Steve Rogers calls her a "kid"
and she is 27 there (born in 1989, the film is set in 2016). And she dresses and behaves like a teen, too.
What should be done about it?
Edited by AsherinkaopenLooking for Trope Name
2 tropes:
1) What is it called when a character is willing to fight like hell for their loved ones, but won't fight for themselves.
2)What is it called when a character has no self preservation instinct (due to either being immortal or otherwise magically allowed to come back to life) even when others in their same situation find this an absolutely insane stance?
resolved Team Fortress 2 characters edit
On the tf2 npcs page the trope Entertainingly Wrong was changed from
to
With the reasoning "Natter, also disputes canon." Firstly the new text is longer and makes what I feel is pointless use of footnotes, but also I fail to see how it disputes canon; Miss Pauling is canonically a lesbian, and when Scout (who was also staring for the 'weird to see naked people in honey' reason) tries to pull her away she says with a slightly awestruck expression
"You go ahead. I'll catch up," which I feel pretty decisively implies that she was Eating the Eye Candy.
So just wanted to check with the chorus before editing it back.
Edited by BiggbyopenBig Bad Abuse
So I've found some trope abuse on King Goobot's entry on the The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron characters page.
- Big Bad: The biggest one of the series. He is the main antagonist in the movie and two hour long episodes. Not to mention the main antagonist in the series' pilot and most recurring villain besides Calamitous.
King Goobot is only the Big Bad of the movie Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius. In the series itself, he only appears in two episodes and doesn't quite match the influence and impact compared to Professor Calamitous (who is the Big Bad of the series). He has the same amount of appearances as most villains in the series and being the main antagonist of two episodes isn't enough to be a Big Bad of a series. Also, the series' pilot is the movie so that info bit is redundant and repetitive.
So I motioned that Big Bad entry be trimmed to his role as the main antagonist of the movie.
Edited by DukePresleyresolved Troper continuing to be uncooperative/edit wars/downright rudeness
As mentioned in a previous ATT thread
, Slothed has a habit of complaining and doubling down on their complaints when called out on them, even being hostile towards me and other tropers (to the point that the ATT thread in question had to be locked). Today, I sent them a ROCEJ notifier for an edit
where they not only referred to multiple real-life content creators as if they were fictional characters, but calling them "toxic", "narcissistic", etc., which is quite a ROCEJ violation. Not only that, I reported
the page in question for being a ROCEJ nightmare (to which the other tropers on the thread largely agreed with me), and I even sent the other tropers who made similar edits on the page notifiers to show I wasn't singling anyone out.
Just now, Slothed has sent a reply not unlike the one they sent me for the previous notifier I sent weeks ago, in addition to doubling down on their edit again, they continued to be hostile towards me, saying that I'll "just accuse them of rudeness again", even though their edits and replies to notifiers certainly don't help matters.
And now they're edit warring
, accusing me of bias for deleting an edit of theirs
that was full of complaining (it began with "Notoriously and ridiculously used to extreme levels") and argues with itself (the other half of the edit began with "However, considering that...").
resolved April 1st joke
Good day.
I had an idea for an April 1st joke where I would add a folder for a meme-"character" to the character page of The Stormlight Archive with tropes written in a way to play into that meme. I would have it stick around throughout March 31st (GMT) to the morning of April 2nd to ensure anyone could stumble upon it (and maybe even add to the joke for themself), no matter what time zone they live in.
But before I prepare it, I would like to ask whether something like that is even allowed.
Thank you and have a nice day.
openPage source says an image was selected when there's none
The page source for Awesome.Devil May Cry has the following commented-out note on top:
%% Image selected per Image Pickin' thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1640963102083542200 %% Please see thread to discuss a new image. %%
I wonder why that says an image was "selected"... because when you look at the link
it provided, the image was actually pulled out by the Image Pickin' thread.
Now I don't know if either 1) the note should simply say the image was "removed", or if 2) there was indeed a replacement image approved somewhere by Image Pickin' but the reference link pasted in the page was the wrong one. I think the first option would be the easiest fix, but I don't know if I'm allowed to edit that note myself, or wait for a mod to do it instead because AFAIK, Image Pickin' notes on pages are added by mods.
openYMMV trope misuse question? Film
Recently someone added the Catharsis Factor regarding the 1990 American biographical crime film GoodFellas as seen here (click here)
, I'll cover it with spoilers just in case if anyone does not want to know the plot yet?
- Catharsis Factor: After a long time of bullying, sadism, murder and many other crimes, Tommy is unceremoniously executed during the trap that he believed to be his making ceremony.
I believe this is a misuse because Tommy was unexpectedly gets whacked from behind by an individual and he seems helpless to do anything to save himself. While I know and aware for sure that Tommy DeVito is a terrible (for the lack of a better term) villain himself and it seems like a textbook example of Tommy's well-deserved comeuppance but for some reason it doesn't feel very gratifying. I admit to not have much good reasons to defend Tommy or to protest against the YMMV trope in someway/or form but it somehow just does not felt right at all and I think this is probably an example of the Catharsis Factor has gone too far. In short, it just seems wrong to add Catharsis Factor on Tommy DeVito.
Side note: This is my personal opinion and I fully acknowledge that YMMV is an opinionated based trope page. And most if not all Catharsis Factor makes sense when it comes to Audience Reactions to the villains in fictional stories but still I think this seems worthy of attention. Any thoughts, suggestions and opinions on this?
Edited by YatasumujiSenpai

Hi, my name is Ulises, I wanted to tell you that I really like the way how you added the Heel and Jerkass Realization tropes, I was wondering if you can add other realization tropes like Bad Parent Realization (when a character realizes that he/she wasn't being a good parent or parental figure to a younger character) and Selfishness Realization (when a character realizes that he/she was being selfish through the time).
Edited by Spider27