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openTwo issues with YMMV/It2017
On It (2017), there was this line by troper Youtubenut:
- Narm:
- For some, Pennywise's voice. Bill Skarsgård was clearly going for a more childish take on Pennywise's voice but ended up sounding a little too much like a mentally challenged Scooby-Doo.
As an autistic person I was annoyed at the comparison, but I wanted to bring it here to make sure I'm allowed to change the wording, and looking for suggestions on what I should change it to. Don't wanna come across as Righting Great Wrongs, but that felt... a little ableist, to put it mildly. Especially because Pennywise is a horrifying villain.
Additionally, there's this:
- Draco in Leather Pants:
- Pennywise. You read that right. Not the handsome actor Bill Skarsgård, Pennywise. The man-eating, child-torturing, pedophilically-toned shapeshifting Monster Clown has groupies. After all, he appreciates the simple things in life such as popcorn, rides, balloons and of course, children. Entire blogs have sprung up of people wanting to meet Pennywise and have him do very dirty things to them.
I already cut out the link to one blog in question and some extra judgmental commentary that felt unnecessary, citing No Lewdness, No Prudishness. The cut text:
While it's not my thing, per se, I don't think we're here to pass judgment on how other people perceive and consume media. Should I delete the chained sinkholes in the current version of the entry as well (Sarcasm Mode, Blatant Lies, and Comically Missing the Point)?
Edited by annieholmesopenNew image for Kid with the Golden Arm Film
So I've been doing alot of work for The Kid with the Golden Arm, and I noticed that the image is basically just that of Hai Tao fighting Golden Arm.
I propose replacing that page image, with this one shown on the left side of the page:
https://cityonfire.com/kid-with-the-golden-arm-1979/
I already have a PNG version of this ready to go; I just need to know where to go to find a consensus to be able to do this replacement.
Edited by Stardust5099openAvoiding an Edit Wat
So on YMMV.Wednesday, I removed
this Narm entry:
- The Hyde looks incredibly silly and cheap, having been compared to the zombies from "Plants Vs Zombies", and the scenes of Tyler's eyes bugging out as he transforms are unintentionally hilarious
I removed it because it doesn't fit the trope definition of an overly serious moment that becomes funny. Well a little while ago added this new Narm entry
:
- Even, The Hyde monster suffered this by a more silly than serious design.
On top of this being Zero Context it also is still not a moment like the trope needs to be. So, I don't know what to do, because if I remove it I will be edit warring.
openRings of Power Edit War Live Action TV
So, I'm reasonably certain there was an Edit War on the Rings of Power YMMV page. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.TheLordOfTheRingsTheRingsOfPower&more=t
Specifically, a Narm item.
- Galadriel's lecture on how agility is more important than strength (a style that fundamentally opposes how medieval combat and swordsmanship worked in the real world) is weakly explained, along with the way some of her exaggerated demonstrations were filmed while fighting the recruits, who have a number of easy openings on her to exploit and strike her body, but instead mostly opt to aim for her sword, and some of her awkward blocking maneuvers that would be easily shattered by a strong opponent. Moreover, agility might be very helpful in combat when one is an elf with superhuman reflexes, but not so much for a human warrior.
It was added by antihero276, but Troll Brutal changed it a bit, to clean it up.
Then it was deleted by Shadowhax, with no edit reason, which is pretty bad. 22 minutes later, it was restored by Troll Brutal with the edit reason "on principle."
Now, even though they weren't the initial OP, I think that means Troll Brutal is edit warring, right?
openComplaining? Music
While looking at YMMV.Clean Bandit, I found an odd entry:
- Narm Charm: The pre-choruses of "Rockabye" about the protagonist's love for her child and her wish for him to have a better life are so emotionally vibrant that most fans don't notice or care how bad the writing is.
The thing is, I haven't seen complaints about the song's writing. This entry also seems like it's insulting the fanbase. May I remove it?
openNicoaln
- Monster Hunter Rise YMMV
(violation of Repair, Don't Respond, already fixed)
- Last Scenario YMMV
(Word Cruft in one entry and improper indentation in another)
- Guild Wars YMMV
("I'm gonna edit this entry which has Word Cruft and also violates RDR, fixing those two while I'm at it be damned")
- AFF subpage of World of Warcraft
(misindentation in an edit and violation of RDR in another)
- Arc Fatigue
(misindentation)
They don't seem like too many cases, as they're in the midst of many edits on Funny and Fridge subpages (whose editing standards are regrettably low), but I had sent a large number of Issue Helpers to Nicoaln in the past for improper indentation and/or natter-like additions. The persistence of these issues in these edits, plus the fact that at times I have resigned to fixing occasional issues from them without PM'ing them (because I know they are aware of the issues), led me to bring this query today.
EDIT: Spotted an extra case I overlooked:
- Narm subpage of Final Fantasy
(misindentation)
openNarm misuse on DC Extended universe Film
So I found this in DC Extended Universe
The way the movie’s Broken Aesop comes about. Diana spends the entire movie convinced that Ludendorff is really Ares and, if she kills him, the war will automatically end. At the end, she kills him only to find out he isn’t Ares and Humans Are Bastards that don’t need to be swayed by a mystical god of war to try to kill each other. Except no, Diana just had the wrong guy and, yes, Ares really did influence and aggravate the war (even if he claims he didn't outright cause it). And once he's dead, the war’s over. Now strictly this is due to an armistice taking effect just when Ares dies, but the way it's framed, it looks like the enemy soldiers come out of a trance because Ares died and they even start hugging Diana's allies. The way the movie so deftly undoes the previous two hours of build-up is a thing to behold.
Umm...but the point is that Ares might have swayed them into doing it but it was still their idea to actually make the decision which he does by playing on their prejudices that are already their Also this is written really weirdly.
openSubjectiveness of Narm
I recently added a Narm entry to the Star Wars: The Clone Wars YMMV page regarding a particular line which totally ruined a scene for me due to what I thought was a very whiny delivery from the VA.
Soon after another troper pounced and removed the edit. They had thought I was criticising the whole scene (which I wasn't, I said the scene was very dramatic other than that one line) and that I needed to provide evidence that other people thought it was Narmy.
Now, I'm not going to get into an edit war over this as it doesn't really matter to me, but I was checking the main page for Narm and it doesn't say anywhere that examples must be supported with evidence that others agree. The main page even states that Narm is completely subjective.
I have also seen multiple examples of Narm from other tropers that I completely disagree with and just look like nitpicking to me (which my Star Wars example probably was as well, to be fair) but I have left these in place because, as I understood it, Narm is supposed to be subjective.
What are your thoughts on this? Should Narm examples provide evidence that others agree? Can we delete other tropers' entries just because we don't agree that it's Narm?
Edited by Sinister_SandwichopenContested mass edits on Characters/LimbusCompany Videogame
Ok. So I'll get this problem straight. The wording I used for my previous help post isn't all that good.
I tried to edit Dante's entry from Limbus Company with something that is explicitly All There in the Manual (specifically, the character's true identity, which is heavily implied but not flat-out stated), but I faced very heavy resistance from another user that I'm just adding "baseless speculation" and "Wild Mass Guessing", so I reverted my own edits just to be safe.
For all I know, they are not. (These
are
the Japanese fanslations of the source material.)
What should I do in this case? The thing I want to edit in is All There in the Manual (leaving it out results in lots of misinfo), but at the same time I do NOT want to risk an edit war. I just need help resolving this conflict.
Edited by Mr-ex777openBioshock 2 laconic edit war. Videogame
I changed the laconic for Bioshock 2, it was changed back and I thought I just forgot to publish the edit so I changed it again. The laconic thread told me that mine was a better description of the game. It was changed back a few days ago. The troper in question, Anti Hero 276, who also created the page back in February, reverted my edit from this
resolved Removal of YMMV examples over what seems to be a personal disagreement
I noticed that the Narm entries on the YMMV page for Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of The War of the Worlds were removed in July last year by Primis for what they put down as just "Misuse".
Thing is, the only thing they show to back up the claim of misuse is a link to the Narm cleanup thread
where they come off as simply disagreeing with the examples listed, with no other troper replying to agree with their post.
I was under the impression that simply disagreeing with YMMV items isn't enough reason to remove them, and that's what seems to be happening here, especially as I've actually seen the "dancing heatray" examples in both the 2006 and New Generation shows and know exactly what those examples are referring to and why it would come across as Narm. Is it ok to restore those examples (minus the Mondegreen link, since that's obviously not a YMMV trope)?
open New NRLEP Crowner!
Up for NRLEP:
- Blood Knight - Morality, Characterization
- Bungled Suicide - Gossip, too gorey
- Creepy Good - Morality, Characterization
- Dies Wide Open - Too Common, attracting gross anecdotes and autopsy photos
- Dodgy Toupee - Gossip about people's hair loss, Complaining About Toupees You Don't Like
- Genetic Engineering Is the New Nuke - Narrative, Impossible, Too Controversial since it's about a controversial hot button issue
- Groin Attack - Too Common, attracting gross anecdotes
- It Can't Be Helped - Too Controversial, as it's a stock phrase it's Too Common
- Late Coming Out - Gossip about peoples' sexual orientations, related to Transparent Closet
- Narm Charm - Narrative, attracting anecdotes
- New-Age Retro Hippie - Narrative, Too Common
- Or Are You Just Happy to See Me? - A sex-related trope, as a stock phrase it's Too Common
- Royal Brat - Characterization, related to Jerkass tropes
- Teeth-Clenched Teamwork - Too Common, Too Controversial, attracting Natter
openDoes this qualify as an instance of Narm?
This entry was removed from the YMMV page for Fire Emblem Fates, and I'm confused as to the reasoning.
- Picture this: you failed to reach an A rank support with Kaze by the end of chapter 15 in Birthright, resulting in Kaze's death. You had also managed to get him married before this happens. You then go back to My Castle and spot his widow on the castle grounds with an exclamation point over her head and talk to her, expecting to hear a customized grieving quote from her in response to this scripted story event. Instead, she proceeds to bitch to you about accessories like nothing's happened.
It was removed for the following reason: "Not intentionally being Played For Drama."
Can somebody explain what this means if this is valid? It's a dramatic scene being undermined shortly afterwards by an oversight in game mechanics. Does that not qualify? If not, do we have a trope for that?
open Edit in Star Wars the Force Awakens The Resistance Characters Film
I removed Hypocrite edits to Finn and Rey in https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/StarWarsTheResistance
for being in accurate.
The tropes where :
- Hypocrite: She Refuses The Call both when Han offers to take her, and when Maz tells her to take-up the lightsaber, saying that she needs to go back to Jakku. But when Fin does the same, she acts like he's a traitor.
Argued that not a hypocrite. Because she did not refuse the call with Han , she turned down a job offer that is a different thing. Also it was stated she refused the call but called Finn a traitor when he did the same. One ) she did not call him a traitor , she asked him not to leave her. Not ask him not to refuse his calling . Two ) She refused the call AFTER he left, also she refused the call after he left. So her refusing the call and criticizing him for doing the same in inaccurate, both in timeline and also the fact she did not call him out for refusing his destiny only asked him not to leave her.
As for Finn
- Hypocrite: His decision to desert from the First Order is fueled by the shock of one his comrades dying, and disgust at the First Order's execution of unarmed civilians. Then during his escape with Poe, he is outright gleeful murdering dosens of his comrades, along with dosens of unarmed deckofficers.
One) He swore never to fight for the first order not to fight against them. two ) it was never shown he was targeting the deck officers also dozens did not die in the escape attempt three) no indication of him gleefully killing fellow comrades. I was also pointed out that no indication of camraderie in the First Order, only order. So Finn was fighting against people trying to kill him and others not fellow comrades.
Werebazs reinstated the edits , and put it to discussion. Claimed that Rey and Finn where hypocrites for not practicing what they preached. When pointed out that cannon materials stated that Finn was not dealing with fellow comrades but former fanatacial soldierrs Werebazs stated he was going by what was on screen.
Nothing on screen indicates a camradire or friendship or comradship between soildiers. Also nothing indicating that Finn or Rey where preaching pacifisim or Rey was preaching accepting the call. There has been no follow up on https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Characters.StarWarsTheResistance&id=107421#107421
and I was wondering considering the trope is not valid based on the justifications. Should I remove it or take other action.
openIf a work has an audience in it, can an Audience Reaction be listed on their page?
Say we have a recording of a stand-up act or a theatrical production, and that's primarily what gets troped on their page. If the recording captures the audience laughing at a dramatic moment and later laughing loudly at a joke, can the page in question list Narm or Funny Moments as In-Universe?
opendeusexadamjensen 121 Film
As far as I'm aware Funny Moments pages are allowed to contain both intentional and unintentional moments to be added, but on the page for Alien: Covenant deusexadamjensen 121
had been deleted examples of the latter and insulting the people who added them both in their edit reasons and on the discussion page
.
openPossible Edit War?
Earlier today, I removed this Narm example from YMMV.Steven Universe, citing that I hadn't seen anyone say that it came off as goofy or that it took away from the scene:
- In "Jungle Moon" AJ Michalka's oddly restrained delivery of Pink Diamond's tantrum shows that Bratty Half-Pint really isn't in her acting comfort zone.
- Pink's tantrum in "Jungle Moon" sounds a lot like the start of a diss rap.
openNarm misuse?
From YMMV.My Little Pony The Movie 2017:
- Like You Would Really Do It: When Twilight Sparkle gets sucked into the tornado in the final act, everyone mostly saw the Disney Death coming a good lightyears away and in turn, really took the drama out of the scene. Of course, this ended up being the case. But for some, it didn't make the subsequent mourning by the ponies any less sad or effective.
- Narm: Try as they might to sell it, no one was buying Twilight Sparkle's demise via the Storm King's tornado in the final act. To nobody's surprise, she wasn't dead after all, really sucking out whatever legitimacy that was in the scene for some.
- Narm Charm: Twilight's Disney Death in the final act was extremely predictable, but the music and the ponies mourning her potential demise afterwards still resonated, due to just how effective it was.
Is the Narm example valid since Narm is about a scene generating the wrong emotion as opposed to this which is covered under Like You Would Really Do It and there's arguing if it's this or Narm Charm (my impression is that it was as well done as possible knowing she'd make it)?
openYMMV Octopath Traveler edits Videogame
Over on YMMV.Octopath Traveler Knack is deleting stuff like Fan-Preferred Couple, Narm, Ho Yay, and They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot, with edit reasons boiling down to "It doesn't make sense to be bothered by something for how it was intended", but I'm unsure if it's enough to warrant deletion as I have seen several people on multiple forums and discussion boards talking about the content in entries that were deleted, with many people talking about how they wished there was more character interaction during stories and/or the characters piecing together what they experienced throughout the story.
Another editor had put the deleted stuff back, saying "YMMV is based on opinions and, at least according to the pictures posted on Tumblr, these opinions seem to be widespread enough to be mentioned on this page. The fact that the game doesn't acknowledge the presence of the other travelers even in events in which they should be (Primrose is wounded, Therion is infiltrating a place) is a valid point and far from inaccurate." only for them to be deleted again.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.OctopathTraveler

Jackthe Movie Fanatic has re-added an example of Narm that I had previously deleted in Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom. The entry has already been an object of discussion in the cleanup thread
, where it was deemed to not be valid, since it does not describe an unintentionally funny moment and mostly amounts to complaining about a certain sound effect. I made sure to leave a link to the discussion when I edited the page. What should be done here?