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openNon-YMMV tropes in YMMV pages Literature
YMMV.Xeelee Sequence has three objective tropes in its page, none of them are audience reaction or proper YMMV items.
- Always a Bigger Fish: The Transcendence would be considered as most franchises' god-like race and even they pale in comparison to the Xeelee, who themselves are losing against the Photino Birds. And even these two near-omnipotents are mere insects to the Monads. This trope also applies to out of universe as well, for the Xeelee series is often considered as the gold-standard of overpowered franchises that eclipses other 'traditionally powerful Sci-Fi franchises' such as Warhammer 40,000, The Culture, Ancient Halo and Gurren Lagann by several orders of magnitude. In fact, the amount of franchises that could stalemate or surpass the Sequence in scale could be counted on one hand.
- Cool Of Rule: Part of the reason the Sequence is so awesome is that all of the science is explained, and not just in a Hand Wave.
- Eviler than Thou: The Sequence is pretty infamous especially in versus forums for how atrociously dark and deprave it can get; often making Warhammer 40,000 look extremely PG and tame in comparison.
- Retcon: There's some inconsistencies across the series, mainly between the earlier novels and the Destiny's Children books. Some of it is simply the result of a lot more light being shed on the period between the fall of the Qax and the end of Ring, but (for example) the fact that Xeelee-style FTL drives function as time machines, including the ability to create paradoxes is only revealed in Exultant, when one would have expected it to be mentioned earlier.
While the Retcon and Cool Of Rule entry can be moved to Xeelee Sequence (although it seems like Cool Of Rule is starved of wicks), the rest look like shoehorns to compare with characters and factions from other works, not with characters and factions in the work itself. With that in mind, would it be alright to move Retcon to the main work page and to delete the rest?
openGetting a new works page to show up on its author's creator index. Literature
I just launched The Stars, Like Dust but for the life of me I can't figure out how to get the index for Isaac Asimov to show up on the darn thing!
openTwisted - Same title, but different stories Literature
A few days ago, I was planning on preparing a page for the latest Emily Mc Intire novel, "Twisted". However, I discovered there is another work of literature under the same name but under a different genre (sci-fi, I think) and a different story.
May I ask for advice?
openMigrating a works page Literature
Murasakiiro no Qualia has two problems right in its URL: it started off as a novel, and the licensed English title is Qualia the Purple (book and manga). May I move it to Literature/QualiaThePurple and turn the current page into a redirect?
(Sorry if there's a dedicated thread for this.)
resolved Which name to use for this character Literature
In The Scum Villain's Self-Saving System: Ren Zha Fanpai Zijiu Xitong, the protagonist, originally named Shen Yuan, transmigrates into a character named Shen Qingqiu, and from then on is referred to as Shen Qingqiu, including in his own thoughts. So in the story, he's called Shen Qingqiu like 99% of the time. I've noticed that the article for The Scum Villain's Self-Saving System: Ren Zha Fanpai Zijiu Xitong uses both names, but Shen Yuan more often than Shen Qingqiu. I feel like it would be better to use Shen Qingqiu by default and only use Shen Yuan when referring to his past life as the novel does. Would it be okay for me to make these changes?
openRepeated Trope Misuse on YMMV/TheVillainessReversesTheHourglas Literature
I’ve been trying to clean up the pages for the Webnovel/Webtoon The Villainess Turns The Hourglass (which is in the wrong directory but that’s a different problem) and one of the editors
keeps trying to shoehorn the same entry about the protagonist into different tropes that it does not fit. The character is a Base Breaker but the issues related to why are already well documented in the Base Breaker entry, so this just seems to keep veering into Complaining about a character they don’t like.
The trope text that keeps moving:
- As noted by some readers, Aria herself wasn't a good person in her previous life, and while she was unjustly executed, she's not exactly the case of an innocent persecuted person. After being reborn she's basically a 24 year-old woman in a teenager's body (and later, due to Rapid Aging, in an adult body) getting revenge on a teenage Mielle, who had not yet done anything particularly heinous. Even after realising Mielle was just a child manipulated by her nanny and Isis, Aria still continues to bully and humiliate her. The fact that Mielle herself is revealed to not be a very bright girl makes Aria being duped by someone like her in her previous life, and taking revenge on Mielle in her current life reflect rather badly on her.
- In fact, several readers pointed out that Mielle herself would be a prime candidate for a Peggy Sue story of her own, where Aria would be considered an outright villain.
So when I first removed it from the page it was listed as Protagonist-Centered Morality, which isn’t YMMV and this text doesn’t meet. Now it’s at Designated Hero, but I’m this case the main character’s not a hero, isn’t described as a hero except by people who she’s concealed her nature from, is honest with herself that her actions are not heroic, and constantly calls herself “the villainess.” Whether she’s a likable Anti-Hero isn’t this trope (and again, that’s already well-written up in Base Breaker.)
I want to remove the text again but I’m concerned about being accused of edit warring. I sent an indicator to the editor about the misuse with this explanation.
Edited by Rebochanopen Language and indexing Literature
What are the rules concerning indexing literature from a certain country in a certain language? For instance, the page Dutch Media notes "English-language media from the Netherlands also go here. Media from Belgium or other Dutch-speaking countries are a different category." But then the page Dutch Literature says "An index of literature originally written in Dutch. This includes both works from the Netherlands and Flanders, Belgium." This seems inconsistent.
The reason this has come up for me is that I want to make a page for the recent novel Natural Law, by Solomonica de Winter, and don't know how it would be indexed. De Winter is Dutch, but she wrote the novel in English - with the first edition being published by a Dutch publisher. So what should count: the nationality of the author, the place of publication, or the language it was written in?
Edited by AlbertosaurusopenWhere to link this page? Literature
ContinuityPorn.Fate Strange Fake has not been crosswicked on Continuity Porn, but I'm unsure if it should go under example subpages when its parent medium (literature) is only a folder and if it should instead be linked there or not.
open Articles on the Black Lagoon series (except not the anime) Literature
By this, I mean a book series by Mike Thaler about a boy named Hubie (his name isn't revealed for a while), who hallucinates or dreams that his school's faculty members, bullies and even holidays and school events are scary, only to find out they're not as bad as he first thought. It's family friendly, and the body horror is somehow utilized in a family friendly way. Although sometimes it can be perfectly macabre for the early-phasers. For instance, a kid named Freddy Jones gets burned alive in the first book! And one book even says "The rug is red. That's so the blood won't show.", proving Thaler was definitely right about the "Imagination is the most powerful nation" thing. Oh and even the teacher herself gets a dose of the horror in one book lol
I'm just curious to know if it's there in article form. And sorry if it sounds more like a review, I tend to infodump a lot lmao
Edited by GastonRabbitopenOdd Stub Page Literature
A Place of Greater Safety has a lot of tropes... on its character pages. The work page itself has a full description but no trope entries, not even commented-out entries.
What to do here?
openRedirect Light Novel to right namespace. Literature
Hi, I created a while ago the page for "Saving 80000 Gold In Another World For My Retirement" (Saving 80000 Gold In Another World For My Retirement) with the Light Novel namepsace. But I forgot that the namespace Light Novel is no longer used and it should be in the Literature namespace instead. Do I need to make a redirect for the right namespace, or it's a thing that only moderators can do? Thanks in advance.
openUnilateral image change? Literature
The page image for A Brother's Price looks to have been changed a couple months ago from a fanart (which had been posted with permission) depicting the main character to the book cover, which is apparently inaccurate. The change was made [[here https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Literature.ABrothersPrice#edit34972807
]] by Oratel, with the edit reason “ TVT practice is to use official images when applicable, regardless of accuracy.”
The reason seems kosher to me, but I can’t find any discussion of it on Image Pickin’ and there’s no note on the page about it. Is this the kind of change that can be made without a discussion in the forum?
openSeparate character page for the Weasley family? Literature
I think the Weasley family (Harry Potter) could have their own character page. They have a lot of tropes in common (Red-Headed Hero, Massive Numbered Siblings, Lucky Seven, Hot-Blooded, White Sheep, Quirky Household, Perpetual Poverty, etc.), but they're scattered across different character pages — Ron has his own page, Molly/Arthur/Bill/Charlie are on the Order of the Phoenix members page, Percy is on the Ministry of Magic page, Ginny/Fred/George/Rose are on the Gryffindor characters page, and Muriel/Gideon & Fabian are on the Others page. The majority of the Weasleys seem to be on the Order of the Phoenix characters page because there wasn't another place to put them (yes, they are members of the Order, but I believe they are defined more by being Weasleys than Order members). So, would it be okay if I made a separate page for the Weasleys?
Edited by Snowskyopen(Resolved) Editing Advice Literature
Hello all, new Troper here asking for some help.
I've recently created a page for the fantasy novel Her Crown of Fire. I have it mostly in a useable state, but I've got a couple of issues that I could use some help with.
1) The page image. I intend to use the book's front cover, but I can't seem to upload the image, nor add a caption. The help pages say that there should be an option under the "More" tab while editing, but there doesn't seem to be anything there.
2) The very last trope in the list, Wouldn't Hurt A Child. I can't seem to get the link to work using Wiki Words, and I don't know enough about the syntax used by TV Tropes to just make a hotlink manually.
Any help or advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated!
EDIT: Link to the page: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/HerCrownOfFire
open (RESOLVED) nattery wall-o'-text on Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Energy Literature
Half the Literature folder on SciFiWritersHave.No Sense Of Energy is currently comprised of a nattery, Example Indentation-noncompliant Wall of Text about the Incredible Cross-Sections firepower numbers controversy in Star Wars Legends (which admittedly I contributed to over a decade ago when I was young and stupid).
Fixing it would be a major change that I think probably could use some extra sets of eyes, but couldn't find a good cleanup thread for this to go in, so I figured I'd come here.
- In one of the Star Wars Legends technical manuals (now non-canon along with the rest of Star Wars Legends), a starfighter's main guns are about 1/200,000,000th the power of a capital ship's heavy guns, and yet starfighters still try to shoot at enemy capital ships like they can do more than annoy the enemy captain by obstructing his view out the bridge. The series that book belongs to throws out words like kilotons for starfighter weaponry, megatons for Slave-1's weaponry, hundreds of gigatons each shot for capital scale weaponry, and the latter being powered by reactors with the energy output of a star. All this for weapons which, for the films that they're detailing, display yields that rarely stack up to the more extreme episodes of MythBusters and are outdone by modern heavy cruise missiles. The light ion cannons the size of mortars on the Invisible Hand are supposedly throwing out as much heat as a 4.8 megaton thermonuclear bomb, which is strange when compared to the Hoth Ion cannon, a weapon that disabled an Imperial Star Destroyer in a handful of shots and yet didn't produce enough heat to melt the surrounding snow. In general, you could probably knock off about six orders of magnitude on anything written in those books and you'd still get way too much. Supposedly, these represent the maximum yields, but because nothing like these figures occur in the movies and there are multiple times when using even a percentage of these maximum yields would prevent ship-wide destruction, where do these numbers come from?
- In general, all of the Star Wars films basically depict combat as being World War II IN SPACE!. This extends to firepower. Fighter cannons can hit the ground a few meters from foot soldiers without harming them, while main gun batteries on capital ships seldom display effects beyond a few tons of TNT- which is roughly in line with World War II era battleship guns, albeit with a higher rate of fire and effective range. There's even a famous scene in Return of the Jedi where the kinetic energy (plus whatever explosives were still on-board) of a crashing kamikaze fighter was able to cripple a Star Destroyer by destroying its bridge, something that would be completely impossible if these things were routinely trading shots with ships capable of depopulating a planet with a single salvo. These numbers have been made even more ridiculous in hindsight by material that came out after the Disney buyout. For example, the Last Jedi art book depicts a strategic-scale (i.e. orders of magnitude more powerful than regular guns) plasma bomb carried by the Free Virgillia-class corvettes as being the size of a building... yet "only" having a 100 megaton yield (which makes these bombs, per area, less efficient than the Tsar Bomba). For reference, by Saxton's old numbers, any single Acclamator-class ship (which are the size of heavy cruisers) had 12 turbolaser cannons each capable of dishing out 200 gigatons per shot. So basically, a ship not much bigger than the Virigillia-class could dish out 2,400 gigatons or the equivalent of 24,000 strategic-scale plasma bombs, every second, continuously. Imagine that every ship in the U.S. Navy had an autocannon that shoots the equivalent of 24,000 nuclear missiles a second and you start to see how ridiculous this idea is.
- However, the author of these works, Dr. Curtis Saxton, is an astrophysicist and so by any right should have a very good understanding of the yields being described. Unfortunately, there is controversy surrounding the author's relationship with those in the online "versus debate" community, which, if true, would mean that the author didn't so much screw up the math as deliberately misrepresent it. Another scientist and Star Wars fan/contributor, Gary Sarli, analyzed Saxton's work and came to very different conclusions. Particularly one of Saxton's most influential calculations, which not only vastly overestimated how much damage needed to be done to fulfill a certain operation ("Base Delta Zero", glassing a planet, in other wordsnote A big part of Sarli's argument pointed out that the original description in the Imperial Sourcebook limited itself, relatively speaking, to wiping out the planet's assets of production, like factories, arable lands, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids, which, while on a planetary scale is definitely impressive, wouldn't necessarily mandate slagging literally everything on the surface or vaporizing the oceans unless the commander was in a particularly vindictive mood, nor would it have to do so by itself, in under an hour. For context, the entire world nuclear arsenal (more than enough to wipe out all major cities and industry) totals 1.5 gigatons. Ten times that number should easily be able to kill nearly every human on Earth. Melting off all the Earth's crust and vaporizing all its oceans, on the other hand?
7 exatons or 7,000,000,000 gigatons.).
- And on the third hand, proponents of the ICS numbers point out that they are several orders of magnitude less than what you'd get simply by down-scaling from the Death Star, which has been calculated from screen evidencehow? Measure how long it took the planet to double in diameter after being shot (0.83 seconds), and do the math assuming Alderaan has the same properties as Earth. For the math, see these
links
. to produce a minimum of 1E38 joules, roughly the energy that the Sun produces in eight thousand years when firing a planet-busting shot. That puts the Empire well into Type II on the Kardashev scale. By the same token, there are those who think that Saxton did the above calculations and then gave their shipboard weapons numbers that he would have expected a Type II civilization to have. Of course, both the EU and the new Disney continuity specified that the Death Star's power came from Kyber crystals, making its showing completely irrelevant to anything that doesn't also use Kyber crystals.
- And critics will counter that there are a lot of weird effects for that to be purely a brute-force weapon, like the existence of a two-stage explosion and a Planar Shockwave. And since the Death Star novel came out, they've either retconned or clarified that the superlaser uses an exotic reaction that causes large parts of the planet to shift into hyperspace (presumably in a violent manner, since vessels with hyperdrives can do so without exploding), causing the planet to blow itself up.
- (separate unrelated example about Vulture droids I added yesterday)
- Star Wars Legends:
- The Incredible Cross-Sections reference books for the Star Wars prequel trilogy, written by physicist Dr. Curtis Saxton, became quite controversial for giving energy numbers that to some readers appeared to be wildly out of scale with the film special effects: for example, maximum yields of 200 gigatons on the turbolasers of Acclamator-class troop transports (Attack of the Clones) and 10 teratons for Venator-class star destroyers (Revenge of the Sith). Saxton was even accused at times of making up inflated numbers to help Star Wars "win" the Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny with Star Trek (he was a participant in sci-fi debating groups on the Internet at the time the books came out). Other debaters argued that some of his calculations were rooted in faulty assumptions, for example that the Orbital Bombardment involved in a Base Delta Zero operation wasn't intended to be at the Earth-Shattering Kaboom level a la Exterminatus, but just to destroy population centers and military sites. The argument was ultimately rendered moot when the Legends continuity was ended.
- (unrelated Vulture droid example)
- The Incredible Cross-Sections reference books for the Star Wars prequel trilogy, written by physicist Dr. Curtis Saxton, became quite controversial for giving energy numbers that to some readers appeared to be wildly out of scale with the film special effects: for example, maximum yields of 200 gigatons on the turbolasers of Acclamator-class troop transports (Attack of the Clones) and 10 teratons for Venator-class star destroyers (Revenge of the Sith); the latter number is about 10% of the estimated yield of the Chicxulub meteorite impact. Saxton has shown where his calculations came from: primarily the Death Star's destruction of Alderaan, the concept of Base Delta Zero from West End Games' Imperial Sourcebook, and shots from The Empire Strikes Back of star destroyers blowing up asteroids said to be nickel-iron in Alan Dean Foster's novelization; however, other debaters such as Gary Sarli have questioned some of his underlying assumptions. The whole thing was ultimately rendered moot after Legends was decanonized, with the efficacy of Orbital Bombardment in particular dramatically scaled down in Disney canon reference books.
Third draft:
- The Incredible Cross-Sections reference books for the Star Wars prequel trilogy, written by physicist Dr. Curtis Saxton, became quite controversial for giving energy numbers that to some readers appeared to significantly inflated compared to the film special effects: for example, maximum yields of 200 gigatons on the turbolasers of Acclamator-class troop transports (Attack of the Clones) and 10 teratons for Venator-class star destroyers (Revenge of the Sith); for reference, the latter number is about 10% of the estimated yield of the Chicxulub meteorite impact
. Saxton has shown where his calculations came from;note primarily the Death Star's destruction of Alderaan, the concept of Base Delta Zero from West End Games' Imperial Sourcebook, and shots from The Empire Strikes Back of star destroyers blowing up asteroids said to be nickel-iron in Alan Dean Foster's novelization however, other debaters such as Gary Sarli have questioned some of his underlying assumptions.note e.g. whether "Base Delta Zero" involves glassing an entire planet For the Evulz or just destroying mission-critical population centers Due to his author's notes thanking various members of online "versus debating" communities, Saxton has also been accused of deliberately inflating his numbers to "win" arguments over whether Star Wars factions would beat Star Trek factions in a war.
- The Incredible Cross-Sections reference books for the Star Wars prequel trilogy, written by physicist Dr. Curtis Saxton, became quite controversial for giving energy numbers that to some readers appeared to significantly inflated compared to the film special effects: for example, maximum yields of 200 gigatons on the turbolasers of Acclamator-class troop transports (Attack of the Clones) and 10 teratons for Venator-class star destroyers (Revenge of the Sith); for reference, the latter number is about 10% of the estimated yield of the Chicxulub meteorite impact
openTroper edits with multiple issues in Ward Character pages Literature
Aenima has been making edits in the Ward character pages that either have bad grammar, consist of ZCEs, violate the spoiler policy, or all three. (This pattern seems to be shared on other pages they edit going by their edit history)
I sent them notifiers months ago, but after not editing for a while they've appeared again, but they seem to have not taken the notifiers to heart as their edits still show the same issues.
Edited by rmctagg09resolved Victoria vandalism Literature
I'm on a self-imposed hiatus due to reasons, but this should be brought to the mods' attention.
Walker 45 has edited Literature.Victoria, calling it "a deranged piece of Nazi propaganda" and the like. They have also made forum posts
expressing overwhelmingly negative views towards the work and saying they will remove all mentions of it from the wiki.
Requesting mod revert of Victoria.
openForeign work title problem on creator page Literature
Say you're writing a page for a foreign (non-english) writer and you need to list their works. Which title should go first? Original or translated one?
Does it depend on whether the writer's works were actually translated to english or not?

Rose Christo's page deserves to be remade. Please remake it. She's a published author; her work is just as noteworthy as any other author.