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Ask the Tropers:
openQuestion about potentially off-color remark in Mulan Film
Misogynist character in Mulan had this quote at the end - "In Asia, the women come second."
Now Listen, I'm not asian. I don't know if this is problematic. Heck, maybe the troper who wrote is asian themselves. I don't know if any harm was meant. But I've seen asians, by the by, complaining about the hypocrisy of the West and whatnot. I just want to know is this comment...it's so generalizing, I want to figure out if this was a problematic thing before confronting them.
openStar Trek: Debt of Honor reversions Print Comic
Need to ask permission to partially revert a couple of changes on Star Trek: Debt of Honor, both to avoid edit-warring (I made most of the page) and because mods did them.
𝕋𝕒𝕓𝕤 deleted this example:
- Mixed Ancestry:
- As T'Cel explains, her mother, a full-blooded Romulan, was rescued from an escape pod as a child and mistaken for a Vulcan, as nobody in the Federation knew they were the same species yet. T'Cel, like Saavik, is half-Vulcan, but chose to rejoin her mother's people and embrace her Romulan half (whereas Saavik is shunned by some of T'Cel's crew for hewing to her Vulcan half).
- T'Kir is as well. However while the book openly establishes that she's of mixed race, and T'Kir is keen to learn more about her father's people, the clues as to what the other half actually is are far more subtle. It's heavily implied that she's Kirk's daughter.
I think I can use Non-Human Humanoid Hybrid for this.
Second, Septimus Heap changed "Part of Volume 2 of the Star Trek (DC Comics) series." to "The markup is: Part of..." while removing a wick to Needs Wiki Magic Love, which is just weird wording. I want to change that to "The comic is part of..."
openNo Title
A few days ago joshmandreza
added the following to YMMV.Star Trek The Next Generation S 5 E 24 The Next Phase:
- I really believed that it was supposed to be Star Trek Universe standard to get all significant plot points resolved before the episode ends; but one could guess either Creator Backlash or Executive Meddling would have taken care of that.
I removed the example as Left Hanging is not a YMMV item, but joshmandreza has since then added it back.
Looking through their edit-history also shows that they have a habit of adding non-YMMV items to YMMV pages, making a lot of complaining and nattery edits, as well as violating the Example Indentation rules regarding formatting.
open Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy in Star Trek Picard.
Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy has been added to the YMMV page of Star Trek: Picard with the following argument:
"The Federation no longer holds the moral high ground after abandoning the Romulan rescue effort and banning synthetic lifeforms inside its space, a major world (Mars) is rendered uninhabitable openly and on-screen, beloved side characters are tortured to death in graphic detail, and the idea of a better future is being strained to the breaking point. As a result, viewers may find it difficult to care about what happens to anyone. The season one finale walks some of this back, with Starfleet coming to the rescue of the synths on Coppelius and the Federation repealing the ban on synthetics, but for some viewers that's too little, too late."
Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy only applies when both sides involved in the main conflict are equally unlikeable or when the heroes' efforts ultimately amount to nothing and the universe still sucks. If the story features clearly defined heroes and villains and the ending delivers a positive outcome, then it doesn't qualify. If people are complaining about the overall darkness in the show, then Angst Aversion (which is already featured in the YMMV page) might be the better fit. Also, that part about the show taking a more hopeful and optimistic rout towards the end of its first season but some viewers refusing to accept that comes off as needless criticism. What do you say?
openBroken Base Misuse from a Recurring Problem Editor? Film
I looked over the Mulan YMMV page to do some cleanup now that the live-action film has given it new attention. A while back I went through the Broken Base to adjust some of the harsher language regarding the "Mulan as trans allegory" interpretation (I strongly disagree with that take and consider it to be an example of Misaimed Fandom, and am considering moving it there, but nevertheless I still believe that it should be documented and discussed in a respectful way).
Afterwards I noticed that Marikusu added a very lengthy and wanky addendum
, which first off, is incredibly long and detailed for the point it needs to make, and comes off as overwhelmingly biased towards one side, basically being to rebuff the other (again, I agree with their take, but not with their writeup). The second part of it ironically has the opposite problem, but clearly reads as personal venting that doesn't bother to fulfill any of the requirements for a Broken Base. I tried to deal with some of the misuse by rewriting it under Alternative Character Interpretation, as well as some related wank from different tropers, but I'm tempted to just nuke the damn thing.
The name sounded familiar, and looking it up there was a previous incident
I brought up here in which I had to correct a rather bad example of trope misuse. When I pointed out their issues they sent me back an incredibly rude response accusing me of character bias, which I rebutted by pointing out their issue was with blatant misuse. Thankfully, they did not start an edit war after that.
But based on their current behavior it seems like they haven't gotten any better with their issues regarding trope misuse, using tropes pages as an excuse for personal venting, or Clear, Concise, Witty issues.
So if anyone else has had run-ins with this troper they'd like to bring up, please let me know, because it seems like they have persistent problems with proper editing etiquette.
Edited by AlleyOopopenMulan YMMV
Are we allowed to make entries that reflect our own opinions, or do we need to only put things that have a general fandom consensus? If someone has an alternate interpretation, does this mean that they are allowed to put their own entries?
openMulan WMG Film
This is on the WMG page for Mulan (2020) :
- Between the disastrous test screenings, the lead actress' poor reception (considered to be "more concerned with looking pretty than emoting"), her controversial opinion regarding the Hong Kong protests (which will not be discussed further here), the backlash Western fans have given to most of the changes (No Mushu, no songs, no Shang), and the recent underwhelming performance of Maleficent: Mistress of Evil at the box office, I'm not entirely confident that this film is going to do well in theaters. Perhaps if it ends up underperforming, Disney will decide to start releasing its remakes exclusively to Disney+, or eventually just cease to do them altogether.
- There's also the coronavirus outbreak to be taken into consideration. It took everyone by surprise, but due to the large outbreak many Chinese citizens will be on quarantined or unmotivated to go to the movies, which will lead to the box office badly hurting.
I don't think this is okay, is it?
openNever Live It Down question.
Per proir ATT
, I added this to YMMV.Star Trek Picard:
- Never Live It Down: The Federation refusing to help the Romulans has caused many to label them as racist. This is despite only 14 of the Federations over 150 member worlds expressed such sentiment, and that the Federations would have helped the Romulans regardless if not for the attack on Mars which was so devastating they could no longer afford to send aid nor the fallout of losing said member worlds over it.
Afterwards, HighCrate changed it to this:
- Never Live It Down: Fourteen Federation member worlds threatened to secede if Starfleet sent relief aid to the Romulans, and the rest of the Federation / Starfleet is complicit in denying aid that cost millions of Romulan lives. This has lead several in the show's fanbase to characterize the entire Federation as irredeemably racist.
This removes the explanation for why it is an unfair exaggeration which prior cleanup deemed a requirement for all NILD examples. HighCrate is active on other cleanup threads and was involved in said prior ATT, so I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt over this. But why the change? Is there something I missed? I've invited them here to discuss this.
I'd ask NILD cleanup but it seems inactive at the moment given my last inquiry there has yet to be responded to.
Edited by Ferot_DreadnaughtopenMulti-person Edit War on YMMV.StarTrekPicard
The following entry has been the subject of a long, drawn-out, multi-person Edit War on YMMV.Star Trek Picard:
- Common Knowledge: The show's detractors often complain that the Federation is "racist" now, and that they refused to help the Romulans due to bigotry. In the show proper, however, Starfleet did try to help the Romulans evacuate for several years before the attack on Mars destroyed much of the armada they'd been relying on. Furthermore, it's made explicitly clear that the decision to cancel the rescue was a case of Realpolitik rather than racial bigotry — many member worlds were uncomfortable expending so much resources to help the Romulan Star Empire, the Federation's oldest enemy, and following the attack on Mars, Starfleet simply couldn't afford to rebuild the rescue fleet from scratch. The ships that were already deployed were ordered to stand down and cease helping, using the situation on Mars as a reason to abandon the project as a whole.
- In addition, writer Michael Chabon has confirmed that much of the Federation's isolationist streak is a lingering effect of the damage the still fairly recent Dominion War did. However, Executive Meddling has so far prevented the show from exploring this in any greater detail due to fears of Continuity Lock-Out.
I'm of the opinion that it's Not an Example. It's unclear from the show precisely how much of the decision to pull out of the Romulan evacuation effort was due to a lack of ships and how much was due to anti-Romulan sentiment, however it is clearly stated that fourteen Federation member worlds were threatening to secede before the attack on Mars led to a lack of ships, specifically because of anti-Romulan sentiment. Characterizing the Federation as having an element of anti-Romulan racism is canonically correct.
As for the improperly indented second bullet point, Word of God is interesting trivia and everything, but if it didn't make it into the show proper then it didn't make it into the show proper, and even if it did, it doesn't change the main point at hand.
open Troper Does not Know YMMV
OK, so hi. Long story short, I watched Disney's Mulan. I disagreed with Shang's teaching methods and felt that said methods were a major contributor as to why his students were doing so badly at first-I also felt his captaining skills were an Informed Attribute (Probably should have put the phrase "Informed Attribute" in my entry now that I think of it, but what can you do?) and he mostly is seen quickly failing at the task at hand so that the title character can save the day. I wrote:
- We're supposed to see [Shang] as this cool dude with this catchy song, and it's not his fault that all his recruits are a Ragtag Bunch of Misfits[sic] afterall. However, from the get-go Shang saddles them with incredibly difficult tasks-like shooting a pomegranate out of midair and dodging flaming arrows, which would be ridiculous for beginners to start out with, and even more ridiculous when you realize that due to the Hun Invasion, they only have three weeks to reach elite level skills. Not helping is that Shang is shown giving barely any instruction at all-just handing them their equipment and watching them fail miserably (And maybe giving them a single brief demonstration if they're fortunate) and getting angry that they can't perfectly replicate these crazy difficult feats on their first try. How they shaped up is a mystery of the ages.Special mention and particularly egregious example in teaching Mulan hand-to-hand combat-we never see him teaching any of the recruits moves, or stances, and instead just forces Mulan to go up against him. Keep in mind that Shang is implied to have had years of specialized training for this and Mulan is still one of the recruits who is doing the worst (and has only been training for a few weeks). As you'd expect, Shang pummels her in a few seconds almost effortlessly. And yet Mulan is portrayed as a "bad student" despite doing her best to oblige her teacher's insane demands.
- ...Shang's biggest (and only) critic, Chi-Fu, is pointed being unreasonable when he criticizes Shang. And we're supposed to agree with Mulan when she calls Shang a "great captain". But when said captain starts his students of with expert-level skills instead of building their strength and endurance or giving them some practical combat level and never really demonstrating any kind of teaching aptitude whatsoever.
- This entry makes no sense. We see a three-minute musical montage. Of COURSE we're not going to see him giving instruction because that would be boring. He obviously must be giving instruction because they're improving noticeably. This takes things out of contexts[sic] and makes completely unreasonable assumptions.
The point is is is that I had an opinion and he/she removed it and is accusing me of character bashing.
For his/her side of the story, see here.
(But know that I am a girl/"she", not a boy/"he")
openDispute on YMMV.Mulan
There is a dispute between myself and Catcher In The Wry on YMMV.Mulan. In short, I removed an entry he wrote, and he took offense to it, PMing me to say he was "annoyed" and that he would take it to a mod. He has not restored the entry, so it's not an Edit War yet, but from the tone of his PM, and of the entry I deleted, I figure it's better to get here first.
The entry was for Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic; the first I deleted because it was, to my judgment, factually inaccurate — it stated that Shang gave no instruction (despite the Make A Man Out Of You montage showing him leading the group in exercises, as well as the group improving, clearly implying that his teaching is effective), and that all he did was demand the recruits like Mulan perform expert level feats and scowl when they failed. Basically, the entry seems to assume that the actions shown in the aforementioned montage are literally the only things Shang did with the group, and therefore Shang is an unreasonable bully for not teaching Mulan anything and then being annoyed that she isn't an Instant Expert.
It also had indentation issues, with a second level bulletpoint that just further expounds on Shang's supposed failures.
The second I deleted because it's based entirely on the first — saying Obstructive Bureaucrat Chi Fu is sympathetic because he's right to be critical of Shang's alleged incompetence. As the first entry is factually inaccurate, the second one based entirely on that should also go.
So far he has not yet PMed me over removing his Alternative Character Interpretation (which I deleted because it doesn't actually explain the alternate interpretation, it just sort of trails off with a parenthetical about how what Chi Fu did was justified), but given his reaction to my removal of his other entry, I expect it's forthcoming.
In all, the entries appear to be based less on the content of the work, and more on this troper's personal dislike for the character Shang, which is in turn based on a factually inaccurate understanding of the movie.
openMulan 2020: Safe to Recreate? Film
The page for the 2020 Mulan live-action remake is currently a redlink for not having a trailer/tropeable material. With today's release of the first proper trailer and poster, do we think it's safe to recreate or not yet?
openUser with grammar problems
User Steeltron
has grammar, punctuation / run-on sentence and (quote) formatting problems, plus a bizarre habit of consistently mis-spelling the the word "have" as either "halved" or "havled"(?).
I sent them a grammar/spelling notifier a month ago to which they never responded, but they still have been making sloppy edits since. See BojackHorseman
, Sixteen
, Ben10
and especially Mulan
.
open Headscratchers/Mulan2020 - rude edit
The proposed 2020 remake of Mulan has a Headscratchers page made for it, which I agree does seem really superfluous and egregious. And I do agree with Damneddifiant
's sentiment, but it is a pretty rude way to go about saying it.
Is it okay for a movie that is two years out from release to have such a page? Also, a mod might want to keep an eye on Damneddifiant's edits too. I've sent a notifier and deleted the comment.
open Mulan evader
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Disney.Mulan
Looks like there's a guy with a gibberish user name posting some weirdness. Given that it's been reverted before, pretty sure it's an evader.
Edited by bitemytailopenThe Army Coming Over the Ridge Film
I don't see this trope covered in your website.
It happens all the time when one army is staring down another. To demonstrate the steep odds facing the one army, the ominous music (or sound effects) plays, the camera cuts to a vacant ridge, then we see the whole of the opposing army slowly emerge until they darken the entire ridge.
EXAMPLES
Mulan = the Huns charge the Imperial Army through The Tung Xiao Pass.
Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace = the Droid Army's tanks slowly approach the Gungan force fields.
The Return of the King = the Riders of Rohan arrive at the gates of Minas Tirith.
Game of Thrones, S 07 E 04 = We hear the Dothraki screamers for a long while before they charge the Lannister Supply Train.
I'm sure there are dozens, if not scores, if not hundreds of additional examples.
Edited by Hughmsweeneyopen OffTheDeepEnd
troper OffTheDeepEnd
's edits in the character page of Mulan
. He has changed many examples with proper context to badly written context ("Cool Old Lady : She's very", or "see Trope x",) or with wrong Example Indentation and natter. His edits were also very much based on his personal opinion (about Mushu "to the point that most of the time one will probably wonder if he is even necessary in the film"). Can someone revert his edits?
openNo Title Western Animation
Whizzer Mckwoff keeps addding YMMV items here
, even though he's been repeatedly told not to.
openNo Title Radio
I think I have the right place to ask this. I thought about "Trope Talk" in the forums but that's about the tropes themselves, the alternatives given here don't match either, and there's no activity in the Discussion page for one of the two works (the other doesn't have a trope page/discussion at all). If I'm wrong I'll take it where it should go. Anywho:
Trying to figure out which trope a particular situation comes under. I originally added it in Never Learned to Read but now wonder if it's better suited to AcCENT upon the Wrong SylLABle.
The example refers to a character used in sketches on the Mark & Brian Radio Program / The Brian & Jill Show. The character is an out-of-work voice over artist where the gag is that, while he otherwise speaks fine, once he starts reading the scripts he mispronounces the hell out of everything. An example, quoted in Never Learned to Read, is below.
- This month, we're proud to offer the 1960 Oscar winning film Spar-tackus. Spar-tackus, from leggendary director Stanley Kubbrick, is the story of a glad-ai-ator who leads a violent revolt against the Romulan empire. Starring Kirk Deglaze, Laurence Oliviary, and Tony Curtis. It will make you stand up and say "I am Spar-tack-us."
Never Learned to Read, given the premise, seems the better fit. But the guy can read. He just stinks at it (found a version of the sketch that lampsahdes this in fact). Accent seems to fit, but at the same time seems to be about mispronouncing the word by just stressing the wrong syllable, which this character cranks up to absurd levels.
Wondering about a possible 2nd opinion.

Deleted this misuse from Generic Doomsday Villain:
It outright states they have a clear reason/motive, which means they're not an examples. Also deleted this under Sturm from Characters.Nintendo Wars:
Sturm is an approved Complete Monster meaning he's been deemed to have enough personality to disqualify (sadism and power hungriness are basic but enough motive to count).
Awhile back there was a TRS
on how to fix this, splitting between "villainous Flat Character" and Feral Villain. I'm not sure if there's been improvement on the issue. Thoughts? (And might "Powerful, But Motiveless" be a better name for the intended use?)