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Make Private (For security bugs or stuff only for moderators)

HMSquared Since: Nov, 2018
2021-04-13 07:37:48

If that message was a PM, I would edit it down as I don't think quoting P Ms is allowed.

I would send a rudeness modifier and something saying they edited the YMMV page of their own fic, along with a link to this thread.

Edit: Shadow Wolf 75 probably should get a rudeness modifier as well.

Edited by HMSquared
RebelFalcon (Private)
2021-04-13 07:53:19

Yes, that message in the folder was my PM to shadowwolf75 detailing how the idea Chiba and Asahina were like this in canon was incorrect. I can get very longwinded. Removing the PM now. EDIT: Also... what's a rudeness modifier?

Edited by RebelFalcon Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-04-13 08:46:22

They mean a rudeness notifier, I presume.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
GnomeTitan Since: Aug, 2013
2021-04-13 08:48:31

It would be good if there was such a thing as a rudeness modifier, though, wouldn't it? Just press a button and rude PMs and edit reasons are transformed into polite ones.

Edited by GnomeTitan
HMSquared Since: Nov, 2018
2021-04-13 14:05:31

Yeah... That is exactly what I meant. I've been tired all day lol.

laserviking42 Since: Oct, 2015
2021-04-13 15:06:37

To answer the question, if you look at the page history, under each edit on the right hand side, you will see the line "Is there an issue? Send a Message". Click on "Send a message" and you'll be at the edit notifier page. The drop down menu has a number of categories, of which Rudeness is one. You can add a more personalized reason in the box below, or just click send to send the canned rudeness notifier, which will PM the user who made the edit.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
RebelFalcon (Private)
2021-04-13 15:10:56

After going back to the forum to check to see of there were any new posts... I found this:

Trickster Priest: You...do know that Wolf is part of the writing team for this story, right? The writer lets her speak on official policy/canon.
Trickster Priest admitted that shadowwolf75 is part of the writing team. Doesn't that mean she too is forbidden from dictating what can and can't be added or removed by virtue of the work technically belonging to her as well? Under the Administrivia The Fic May Be Yours, but the Trope Page Is Ours?

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Serac (Troper Knight)
2021-04-13 15:15:09

^ Yes, if she's part of the writing team, then she is also considered to be the work's creator for the purpose of that policy.

STARCRUSHER99 (Captain)
2021-04-13 15:19:32

And also, work creator's aren't allowed to touch YMMV pages at all - they were in violation of the rules as soon as they deleted the first entry

Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-04-13 15:22:49

I've sent messages to both Trickster and shadowwolf with links to the Administrivia page as well as this ATT query.

I'm not sure if anyone has actually told them about that policy, so maybe this will solve it. Either way, I've invited them here, so maybe we can bring this to a halt before more edit wars happen.

Edited by Arctimon
Serac (Troper Knight)
2021-04-13 16:02:49

Creators are still allowed to remove objective misuse from YMMV pages, like unapproved Complete Monster entries or using Ensemble Dark Horse for a species or group, and they can correct misinformation about the work, but they can't add things, and they can't remove things just because they don't like or agree with them.

RebelFalcon (Private)
2021-04-13 16:36:49

Should I restore the entry then now, or should I wait a bit?

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
HMSquared Since: Nov, 2018
2021-04-13 16:39:50

I would wait until either they come to this thread or a mod steps in. Don't want to escalate things.

RebelFalcon (Private)
2021-04-13 16:47:01

Understood then.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
shadowwolf75 (Ancient one)
2021-04-13 16:50:31

Whatever, do whatever you want, I don't care anymore.

Edited by shadowwolf75
Trickster_Priest Since: Jun, 2017
2021-04-13 17:00:12

What Wolf said. If I can't touch the YMMV page, and she can't, then screw it. Even if I think this trope is taking shit out of context and not considering the new scenario, considering Zero threw the JLF under the bus before Narita? It apparently isn't my place to say shit. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Trickster_Priest
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-04-13 18:40:03

Here's the thing you need to understand: It doesn't necessarily matter if it's taking things out of context in this case. What matters is if it accurately describes a fan reaction, and it seems like it does. If the fans are misinterpreting the work, then that sucks, but it doesn't nullify the fact that the reaction exists- which is all RTDE is meant to document.

GRANTED, RTDE (and Draco in Leather Pants) have been under scrutiny lately because nobody can agree on how they're defined. So it's a bit confusing here. Still, though, the best thing to do is to bring it up to discussion and see if other people, who don't have a stake in the story, agree that the example is misuse. Then they can delete it for you.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
HMSquared Since: Nov, 2018
2021-04-13 19:42:58

As someone who is not familiar with the fandom or fic in question, the examples don’t sound like misuse to me. Someone else should confirm or deny, though.

(Sorry if I’m coming off as a know-it-all, I just hope this situation is resolved properly)

Trickster_Priest Since: Jun, 2017
2021-04-14 00:01:16

Ok, here's what happened.

A rogue unit of the JLF (Japanese Liberation Front, the biggest resistance group against Britnania which controls Japan now) attacked a major conference at a hotel on Lake Kawaguchi. Said unit was commanded by a Lt. Colonel. The JLF is the remnants of the imperial Japanese army.

Zero went to rescue the hostages, for good PR reasons, a general dislike of stupid terrorism, because his friends, including his sisters, were there, and finally because one of the sister is the full blood sister of the sitting Viceroy, who would have conducted a murderous purge in retaliation for her sister being hurt.

Zero saved the hostages, but he was furious that someone like the Lt. Colonel could be so high in the JLF, especially after he threatened to have his sister gangraped. So he threw the JLF under the bus in his speech afterwards, and forced a meeting with Kyoto, the backers of the JLF. He also secretly sent a letter to Cornelia telling her what happened and to kill the JLF off.

The JLF extended an invitation for a meeting with him, however, the commander of the JLF failed to understand that Zero was pissed at them and not willing to be a subordinate. Zero also said Japan was dead and the JLF had been wasting their time for seven years, among other things. Including that Japan had brought the second pacific war on themselves by provoking Britannia, and that Japan's own racism and xenophobia were to blame for the Lt. Colonel. Chiba and Asahina did not take kindly to these insults, and that's before one gets into the fact that Zero is extremely rude by Japanese standards of behavior, despite his cultured and eloquent speech. Chiba in fact, drew a gun on him during this meeting, only being stopped by Tohdoh.

Later, the commander of the JLF betrayed the Black Knights during the battle of Narita, which Zero used to bury the organization's reputation for good.

Asahina badmouthed the black knights (Zero's organization) for their principles in being open to everyone and not being a purely Japanese organization, something Zero took issue with. Chiba was angry because Zero scourging the JLF meant they had no support and no one was willing to help them.

Zero told her off for coming to him for help to rescue her commander, Colonel Tohdoh, and having the nerve to badmouth him. He also refused to meet with them until they disarmed, which Asahina took as an insult to their honor.

Asahina believed Zero to be a mad man who would destroy what was left of Japan. (A major point that I believe some people have not understood, is that the JLF was a Japanese nationalist organization. And while Zero made the black knights a Japanese organization in the original show? Here, he did not do so, and in fact scourged parts of Japan's culture for failing to change with the times. Including things like the Burakumin, a hereditary underclass reviled in modern day Japan.) Thus, Asahina allied with a traitor in Kyoto and sought the aid of a Chinese invasion force.

Zero defeated the invasion force, executed both the kyoto traitor, and the former defense minister in gruesome fashion, and caught Asahina for his treachery. Asahina was sent on a high risk mission, which got him killed when the super weapon Siegfried arrived.

After Zero almost died there, and the Black Knights fled the country, there was considerable unrest and tension in the ranks. Chiba believed Zero was insane and that Tohdoh should take charge. CC realized what she was up to and pushed Tohdoh into a situation where he would take responsibility for his wayward student, while also revealing that Chiba was in love with him.

And that's the gist of what happened. :D

Questions?

RebelFalcon (Private)
2021-04-14 00:42:29

That doesn't change the fact that the situation only got to such a level because Trollouche harbors a grudge against those he felt screwed him over in the canon timeline, and as such needlessly goes out of his way to antagonize them to the point they take such drastic actions.

It also doesn't change the fact that the behavior you write Asahina and Chiba demonstrating goes against their canon characterization. Canon wise, Asahina and Chiba were first and foremost loyal to Todoh, and while they had issues with Zero just coming back after abandoning them and acting blase about it, they were willing to still follow Zero until he crossed the line. For Asahina, it was seeing the data Kinoshita sent him with his dying breath, said data saying Zero for all intents and purposes led a massacre and kept it secret from the rest of the top brass. For Chiba, it was the doctored evidence Schneizel presented, and she was shown as being horrified by what was shown just like the others, even initially disbelieving it until Ohgi stepped in and vouched for Schneizel.

Yet here, despite Todoh pledging loyalty to Zero, Asahina and Chiba both go behind his back despite less heinous actions being taken. Asahina conspires with Yoshino in secret to try and depose Zero in almost a repeat of what happened with Sawasaki, down to being manipulated by the Chinese Federation. And Chiba not only spreads anti-Britannian propaganda amidst their own forces, but tries to convince Todoh to lead a coup d'etat while Zero is in a coma.

Their characterizations do not feel in line with that of canon, and instead feel like they are being needlessly made into antagonists to justify propping up Trollouche and C.C. You said it yourself, Chiba pulled a gun on Zero during their meeting, and all of the Black Knights there immediately moved to gun her down, only being stopped by Todoh.

You also are downplaying certain elements of the story. Asahina was brought before Zero and Todoh and told he had two options: either take part in a deliberate Uriah Gambit that Trollouche made no secret he hoped Asahina would suffer in, or be court martialed and executed. Chiba meanwhile was confronted by C.C. and, after seeing C.C. tear someone's throat out for trying to attack a comatose Trollouche, was understandably terrified of C.C. and pulled a gun on her, even telling Todoh she feared C.C. would kill her, with C.C. attempting to do exactly that, only stopping when Todoh declared he would take responsibility for Chiba's life.

The definition of Ron the Death Eater is:

The result of either shoehorning a good canon character into being a villain or making a villain significantly more evil than in canon is Ron the Death Eater, the inverse of Draco in Leather Pants. (The term usually used for this in fanfiction is "character bashing").
And it is made no secret that Trollouche, a fusion of a Self-Insert and Lelouch, despises Chiba and Asahina for their canon actions, to the point he acts in a manner that needlessly provokes them, and then makes them act worse than their canon selves ever did, with their failures meant to be seen as good things if not Laser-Guided Karma while propping up Trollouche and C.C., and reinforcing the idea you propogate that the Black Knights are nothing without Zero, and the very fact they disagree with Zero suggests they're ungrateful idiots. And when anirocks tried pointing out that for all intents and purposes, you were character bashing:
anirocks: "Compare this to how CC in C&G shattered Chiba's spirit by showing her that Tohdoh would never support her ambition and likely never love her." there are many ways to disclipine her. what cc did was extreme and pure bashing. not complaining though:p. just pointing out since you asked
You responded solely by downplaying the actions or using developments you wrote to justify them, even though said developments were a result of the bashing. And when anirocks tried saying that characterwise, Todoh allowing any of this to happen was Out of Character:
anirocks: losing an ace pilot and tohdoh's loyalty. nah i dont think trollouche is that stupid to let cc do that. besides if you really wanted to punish her you can easily demote her to the lowest grunt. that would have stinged her pride and hurt a bit more than this bcoz mental torture/gymnastics is more effective and less cruel — tohdoh was angry at her indeed. but not too much as to allow trollouche to kill her. besides chiba is a comrade for tohdoh for decades whereas he met trolloche a month or so. so yeah even if he is angry at chiba if push comes to shove tohdoh will support chiba more than trollouche
You rebuked it using evidence that unintentionally reinforced anirocks argument.
Trickster Priest: First off, it would be a decade, maybe a bit more. Chiba is only 26. So she would have been 18 or so when Japan was invaded. Second, Trollouche knew Tohdoh for all the time he was in Japan as a hostage, that's over half a year. And in terms of time since they met again? Close to a year. Third, ahahahaha, no. He's not going to back Chiba over Trollouche. She's a subordinate, he's the commanding officer. Chiba herself proved that Trollouche was right not to trust her several times over.
Since you're suggesting Todoh would take the word of an admitted monster, someone even Todoh has admitted to fearing, and was even asked by Trollouche to serve as his Morality Chain, over his own student, not just subordinate, who he's known much longer, and that all of Trollouche's "proof" only came as a result of goading her into acting as he wanted, especially when canon demonstrated that, after learning Zero's identity, Todoh flashed back to Asahina's last words to him, and both he and Chiba believed what Asahina said over Lelouch, because Lelouch had done little to defend himself against the evidence Schneizel provided, even playing the part when they held him at gunpoint solely because of his death wish. Even with Todoh pledging Undying Loyalty to Zero, he'd at least hear Chiba out due to knowing her much longer than he did the self-admitted monster, and wouldn't be so quick to declare he'd kill Chiba himself if she kept acting this way.

Even if you do not agree, the fact is that Asahina and Chiba are depicted as worse than their canon actions, in a way that paints them negatively, which falls under the purview of Ron the Death Eater. And since it's a YMMV trope, it can and does apply.

Edited by RebelFalcon Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2021-04-14 04:56:57

With so many long posts I just want to point out that...

    ... you can use folder markup in ATT 
Just like you can in the forums.

Edited by sgamer82
Arivne Since: Jan, 2001
2021-04-14 06:42:58

^^ ^^^ Trickster_Priest and Rebel Falcon:

It would be best to continue your discussion on the appropriate page, not here on ATT.

Edited by Arivne
RebelFalcon (Private)
2021-04-14 07:05:36

There is no forum for this fic, and the entire reason I came to ATT is because Trickster Priest nixed Ron the Death Eater claiming misuse with the only justification being that they are the author of the fic, despite the fact that, as the author of the fic, Trickster Priest isn't allowed to touch YMMV tropes, so now Trickster is trying to make it out to be misuse here after Hmsquard said is didn't sound like misuse. This is still part of the entire reason I brought this to ATT: to avoid an Edit War over Trickster and Shadowwolf removing an applicable trope by claiming misuse with their only justifications being that they are the writers and that I just don't understand the "nuance" of the situation.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2021-04-14 08:00:39

No, we don't dedicate an entire forum for a single work, and discussing edits to tvtropes on another platform is discouraged based on our rules against drama importation. However, you're always free to make a new forum thread dedicated to the work in the appropriate subforum. ATT generally doesn't have very long threads or posts, but the wiki automatically generates a discussion subpage for every article/subpage. The "appropriate page" is where we encourage editors debate if an example applies, and we have a dedicated thread for that question as well.

On the other hand, given the existing problem of Ron the Death Eater and inverse, I'll encourage this discussion to take place in one of the existing cleanup threads instead. I'm not locking this query just yet, but I don't want to see more ten-paragraph arguments over the example when better venues are available; further posts should be about the status of the page.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
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