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WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-03-30 18:34:19

If it's not intentional, then it's an audience reaction, and not the trope.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
STARCRUSHER99 (Captain)
2021-03-30 18:42:26

Yeah, all of the examples that were cut were written like YMMV, not In-Universe like it's supposed to be.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-30 18:45:37

I do understand that but it's not always the case that tropes need to be intentional Broken Aesop and Moral Dissonance both of which are unintentional tropes yet not YMMV I also don't know of a rule that tropes always need to be intentional in general.

Edited by Ordeaux26
mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2021-03-30 18:46:25

For what it's worth, there's a TLP draft covering a YMMV equivalent to this trope though I'm concerned about complaining potential if it goes through.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-30 18:50:03

Interesting.

Also almost forgot to say that In-Universe Examples Only wouldn't make sense to exist if all tropes had to In-Universe.

Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-03-30 19:08:31

All tropes should occur in the work, yes. But IUEO is a specific label used for character reactions or things that are negative/complainy, so they cannot have "real life" or audience reaction examples.

For example, Head-Turning Beauty requires that characters within the story react to someone's hotness (ie. an in-universe reaction). On the other hand, Jumping the Shark is too contentious to exist freely on the site, but it's a legitimate term, so it's restricted to fictional references.

Edited by Synchronicity
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2021-03-30 19:22:10

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most, if not all, non-YMMV tropes assumed to be In-Universe only? At the very least, my own metric for most tropes is whether or not they are, or can be, called out in-series.

Edited by sgamer82
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-30 20:17:07

As I said though there is no rule disallowing unintentional examples and some tropes like Broken Aesop, Moral Dissonance, Protagonist-Centered Morality are Non-YMMV and are unintentional tropes. I get now that all tropes need to be In-Universe but they don't need to be intentional as far as I know, a trope can happen without the narrative intending it to.

mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2021-03-30 20:25:07

^ Two out of three of the tropes you mentioned are listed under Tropes Needing TRS because they should likely be made YMMV items. But it's true that not everybody can intend to write a trope in a certain way, and some writing decisions can be subconscious. But Disproportionate Retribution is kind of a complaining risk so I do think it should be limited to deliberate decisions, especially since the exaggerated nature of the trope means it should be obvious when it's intentional.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-30 20:31:14

Maybe you personally feel that way but since the trope is not currently like that then the example removals aren't valid.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-03-30 21:01:13

Tropes are IUEO by default. The only time we need to say so is when it's an Audience Reaction or YMMV, or if people keep misusing it.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-30 21:04:41

Unless you were referring to one of my earlier comments I am not talking about In-Universe anymore I am talking about intentional examples.

Edited by Ordeaux26
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-03-30 21:07:57

And if they aren't intentional? Then they're subjective, which is the same as being an audience-reaction, which wraps back around to IUEO. They're intrinsically linked. If a trope isn't In-Universe, then the creator didn't intend it, and tropes are intentional. The ones you pointed out above will probably be moved to YMMV in the future.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-30 21:10:48

That isn't really how definitions work something can happen without you intending it to. Like if I misspell a word I still misspelled it even if I didn't intend to. I also still have yet to find a rule on the site that says all tropes need to be intentional and Broken Aesop, Moral Dissonance, Protagonist-Centered Morality show otherwise.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-03-30 21:18:12

A typo isn't a trope, though.

"Do tropes need to be intentional" is honestly an entire debate that'd best be had on Trope Talk, not here. But by default we do assume that the creator needed to put it there intentionally, if only because trying to trope the unintentional can lead to varying interpretations and fights.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-30 21:20:15

I know a typo isn't a trope it was an analogy meant to illustrate that things don't need to be intentional to objectively happen.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-03-30 21:22:56

Sure, but it's different with tropes since they're not just things that get put into a story. They have meaning and purpose, and fall into patterns. It's hard to perfectly add a trope without meaning to. That's the issue here. The audience might think a character suffered Disproportionate Retribution, but that doesn't mean the trope is in the work.

Take it from a writer. Tropes don't just accidentally end up in stories. Any time there's a trope that could debatably be there if you squint hard enough or interpret something in a certain way, then the trope isn't objectively in the work. There might be something that hit a specific beat, but the rest of the tune would be missing, making it vague and ambiguous.

Edited by WarJay77 Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-03-30 22:35:11

Here are the entries I removed in question (I added back one I removed by accident):

  • It's a highly contested point among the fandom, whether the Mane 5's actions in the episode "The Mysterious Mare Do Well" went too far in simply trying to humble Dash a little.
  • In "28 Pranks Later", the response of all of Ponyville to Rainbow Dash going on an unrelenting pranking campaign (and in their defense, they do try to beg her to stop and tell her some pranks are too mean to their targets, but Rainbow refuses) is to make Rainbow believe that one of her pranks has Gone Horribly Wrong and she had accidentally unleashed a Zombie Apocalypse. Understandably, some audience members find this as divisive as the "Mare-Do-Well" scheme.
  • in the season 8 finale, Cozy Glow, a child, is sentenced to life imprisonment in Tartarus even though many far more powerful adult villains received far lighter punishment and she could have easily been sent to a normal prison with an eventual release date. This is later topped in part 2 of the series finale by turning her to stone for all eternity. Many viewers saw these punishments as very overly harsh.

As Disproportionate Retribution is non-YMMV, saying if it's this trope is down to YMMV seem misuse, plus violating Examples Are Not Arguable. Two seem objective misuse.

"28 Pranks Later" sounds necessary as opposed to excessive as it notes they tried lesser methods first but it proved insufficient.

Cozy Glow in Season 8 committed the same crime that got Tirek uncontroversially sent to Tartarus (stealing Equestria's magic) refusing redemption and showing no remorse for such, and was equally and wholly complicit in and unrepentant for the same acts that got the rest of the villains turned to stone. That sounds proportionate. The unfair part (not checking why the child was so evil for possible mitigating factors) is a separate (YMMV) trope.

"The Mysterious Mare Do Well" would count if DP was YMMV, but there are YMMV tropes to cover the audience reactions to it. Plus it's ZCE as to how it was excessive.

I've seen Disproportionate Retribution used as the basis for YMMV entries, but as a YMMV itself seems misuse when we have proper YMMV trope to cover the issues.

Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011
2021-03-31 13:02:04

The Cozy Glow example should stay, because the point stands that she could have gotten a lesser punishment given her age, but they decided not to, and Discord's complicity in her later crimes doesn't help. I'd say cut the part about the viewers' reaction, because that makes it sound subjective.

Edited by Javertshark13
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-03-31 13:07:22

^ It is subjective. The show intended it to be a valid punishment.

Edited by WarJay77 Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-31 13:14:32

As I have said multiple times there is no rule about it having to be intended (Both on the trope and in the site rules) as long as it is something that does happen.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-03-31 13:34:42

And I've explained why tropes require intent to exist. You didn't respond to my points, so reiterating yourself at this point doesn't feel like good-faith arguing.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-03-31 13:34:43

Double

Edited by WarJay77 Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-31 14:03:47

I can't really respond to that since that is your opinion on it do you have any actual evidence of a rule requiring tropes to be intentional? That is what I need.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-03-31 14:11:21

It's not opinion, it's been proven time and time again, but 'aight.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013
2021-03-31 14:57:49

The mental gymnastics here are mind-boggling. Disproportionate Retribution's effects need to be felt and addressed in-universe. As it is not a YMMV trope, it is not up to the audience to judge if the punishment was excessive or not, but the characters involved instead.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V The Phantom Pain
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-31 15:04:31

I fail to see how I am using "mental gymnastics" Disproportionate Retribution never says it needs to be intentional and there are a few tropes on this wiki that are about unintentional tropes and the idea of tropes needing to be intentional doesn't really make sense based on definitions. Where does it say the effects need to be addressed In-Universe?

Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-03-31 15:31:40

Ordeaux 26, turning this into a debate about whether or not tropes need intent is misusing this forum. Trope Talk or Wiki Talk are more appropriate places to have that conversation. The reason for the deletions has already been discussed, but if you need me to summarize:

Disproportionate Retribution is not In-Universe Examples Only, but the examples as written referred to the fandom. Using normal tropes to talk about audience reaction is completely wrong.

  • "It's a highly contested point among the fandom,"
  • "some audience members find this as divisive as the "Mare-Do-Well" scheme."
  • "Many viewers saw these punishments as very overly harsh."

I don't watch this show; I have no horse in this race so to speak. But the people who do know this show have said that the examples are proportionate punishments within the context of the show, so even if you take out the fandom references it is still misuse.

Edited by Synchronicity
jandn2014 Since: Aug, 2017
2021-03-31 15:43:59

Disproportionate Retribution doesn’t need to be regarded by the characters, but it does need to be presented as such by the work. Cozy Glow’s punishment may have seemed too harsh for many people in the audience, but the show itself intends to present it as a fitting punishment, thus making it not an example of Disproportionate Retribution.

Edited by jandn2014
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-31 15:47:59

Alright I will stop with the debate about tropes needing to be intentional.

But when it comes to jandn2014's comment nothing on Disproportionate Retributions page says it needs to be presented as it but the work.

Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-03-31 16:00:02

...Did you miss my sentence about how using normal tropes to talk about audience opinions is wrong? Or any of the other rebuttals?

Tropes being about stuff that is actually in the work is the default. That is a rule. It is only those listed on YMMV and Trivia that are allowed to talk about fandom stuff or behind-the-scenes stuff. From How to Write an Example, "Good Examples are not Arguable":

Tropes are objective, so a trope either exists within a work or it doesn't.

And "Don't Write Reviews on the Trope Page":

Using the trope page to highlight your opinion of how the trope is used is off-topic.

Edited by Synchronicity
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019
2021-03-31 16:07:26

Sorry if I didn't really make this clear I do agree that the examples as they were couldn't have stayed because they are talking about audience reactions. The only point I have been trying to make is that Disproportionate Retribution never states it needs to be intentional, but at this point, I don't think it's worth continuing.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-03-31 21:39:24

If Disproportionate Retribution has to be intentional and/or not audience reaction sounds like a question for TRS or some other thread.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-03-31 21:44:26

Right. There can be a debate about whether tropes need to be 100% intentional on the creator's part, but this isn't the place for it.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2021-04-01 08:58:35

Closing this before it draws more peanut gallerying, but for the record if a trope is objective using it for "fan(dom)" examples is not OK.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
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