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21st Feb, 2021 07:39:25 PM

Perhaps we could refer to them as the Roma throughout the page but include a note at the top of the page explaining that they are referred to as Gypsies in the film?

21st Feb, 2021 07:50:44 PM

The Disney adaptation calls them gypsies, and never once refers to them as Roma or Romani.

(I haven't read the relevant translation of the novel, so I can't help with that side of things. Remember that the localization policy does technically apply over there.)

21st Feb, 2021 07:52:17 PM

Not sure if pings work here, but attempting to ping ~Cn H Girl just in case they do.

21st Feb, 2021 07:53:35 PM

Also ~Miss Gem Knight, who edited Frollo's page today and probably sparked this discussion. Especially egregious on the Frollo page, because he's the character who refers to them as gypsies the most.

21st Feb, 2021 07:55:28 PM

^^ Pings do not work here. You'll have to manually send a PM.

21st Feb, 2021 08:14:48 PM

While the film (and most adaptations) refer to them as "gypsies", the term is considered a slur by many members of the Romani community and is generally discouraged.

Obviously, direct quotes should not be altered and the occasional usage of the word in quotation marks to indicate it's the characters using the word should be okay. But I think we should prioritize using the proper terminology for the page in general.

21st Feb, 2021 08:18:20 PM

I'd rather opt to change it back to "gypsies" but in quotation marks. I would find it a bit improper to change it to Romani as there's no changing history. The novel is from the 1830ies and the earlier movies are from the 1920ies and 30ies. The work doesn't use the term "gypsy" to only refer to "members of the Romani ethnic group". Instead, it also uses many stereotypes that come with that term. I feel like changing it would be whitewashing history and also somewhat equating Romani with the stereotypes of that time.

21st Feb, 2021 08:47:08 PM

What ever the work calls them should be kept.

21st Feb, 2021 08:59:24 PM

Technically we do have to care about the localization policy here.

21st Feb, 2021 09:23:57 PM

^ Not really though since the novel was first translated similarly in the 1830s and most of the movies are in English.

21st Feb, 2021 10:27:24 PM

Yeah change it back to gypsies because that's what the work uses. MissGemKnight is being a Bluenose Bowdlerizer here. I don't think the "most recent translation" rule applies to public domain literature that anyone can publish a translation of.

22nd Feb, 2021 08:30:44 AM

Even if the work uses a slur, are we really obligated to use it outside of a quote?

I mean, pretty sure Django Unchained uses the N-Word more than "African American" or "black" but we sure as hell don't use the same terminology as the film.

Or Tropic Thunder: the page only uses the term "retard" in a direct quote, and I'm fairly sure they never use the phrase "mentally challenged" in the movie yet in non-quote entries that's what we use.

Of course, those are examples of Deliberate Values Dissonance so that might not necessarily apply. But what about It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? Carmen was pretty much exclusively referred to as "Carmen the Tranny" in her first episodes but we don't use that word on the character or recap pages. I don't think that's too far off from society collectively understanding that gypsy is an inappropriate word.

Edited by Larkmarn
22nd Feb, 2021 08:43:33 AM

I'm with Larkmarn here. When discussing characters, we don't have to use the same word as the work does. Direct quotes are of course a different matter.

If you want to stress that the film uses a certain terminology, this could be mentioned in the work description.

22nd Feb, 2021 09:03:37 AM

^^ I see your point. It would be best if the term Romani is used when it refers to the group the characters belong to but "gypsy" is used when it refers to the stereotypes the work uses for characters that are called such.

This might seem a bit hair-splitty. But real life Romani don't have magical powers. I think this is similar to the "retard" example you mentioned (I don't know the work though). Fortunately, "retard" is nowadays rarely used to refer to mentally disabled people. If mentally disabled people are portrayed in a stereotypical way in the work and we substituted the term "retard" with "mentally disabled" it would similarly lead to problems. As for the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia example, in this case the show actually breaks more stereotypes than it enforces.

I think this is nuanced and I'm not sure if I expressed it well.

22nd Feb, 2021 09:18:02 AM

this isn't a direct comparison, because Indian isn't as much a slur, but as possible comparison, The Leatherstocking Tales uses both- it mostly uses modern terms when speaking from a more distant viewpoint ("this story explores the conflicts between white settlers and native americans") and dated terms when directly describing the events in the book ("Henry thinks scalping is alright when the Indians do it")

edit: i like sirena"s idea also

Edited by Tremmor19
22nd Feb, 2021 08:00:14 PM

^I think that is a valid comparison and we should follow the same with "Roma" vs. "gypsy".

23rd Feb, 2021 08:15:34 PM

Here is an example of how I handled the use of slurs.

  • Not So Different: When Moguy, Candie's lawyer, comments that one could almost say he was raised to be Candie's lawyer, Django sardonically suggests that he may as well have been brought up in captivity, not dissimilar to a slave, with subtext suggesting that he is calling into question Moguy's feelings of superiority based on skin colour. Uncensored exchange below:
    Moguy: ...One could almost say I was raised to be Calvin's lawyer!
    Django:(Beat) One could almost say you's a nigga.

Edited by SkyCat32
23rd Feb, 2021 10:45:34 PM

Is "gypsy" really a slur on par with the n-word, or just an outdated term comparable to "Negro" or calling Native Americans "Indians"? Considering it's used in the G-rated Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame, I'm inclined to say it's the latter. Changing all instances of "gypsy" on the Notre Dame subpages to "Roma" seems comparable to renaming the Indians in Neverland in Peter Pan "Native Americans".

Edited by rjd1922
23rd Feb, 2021 10:47:02 PM

I mean, all that proves is that the MPAA doesn't think it's a slur, not that the Roma don't think it's a slur. Heck, it doesn't prove that the MPAA doesn't think it's a slur now; only that they didn't think it was in 1996.

Edited by wingedcatgirl
24th Feb, 2021 01:53:51 AM

^^ For the record, the majority of American Indians prefer the term American Indian, so that comparison doesn't hold up.

24th Feb, 2021 02:07:32 AM

Not to mention that the Indians in Neverland clearly are not Native Americans. They've never even been to America. (True, they've never even been to India either, but rightly or not, the word "Indian" doesn't only refer to people from India.)

24th Feb, 2021 06:39:49 AM

Is "gypsy" really a slur on par with the n-word, or just an outdated term comparable to "Negro" or calling Native Americans "Indians"? Considering it's used in the G-rated Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame, I'm inclined to say it's the latter. Changing all instances of "gypsy" on the Notre Dame subpages to "Roma" seems comparable to renaming the Indians in Neverland in Peter Pan "Native Americans".

... wait, are you saying that you think we would keep using the term "Negro" on a page? Because I do think that's pretty much analogous to this scenario. Which is why I'm surprised you come to the exact opposite conclusion.

Edited by Larkmarn
24th Feb, 2021 07:38:02 AM

Okay, can someone PM the bluenoser for their explanation?

And perhaps rename it to Romani because I'm confusing "Roma" to a certain city and its ancient empire.

Edited by alnair20aug93
24th Feb, 2021 07:41:36 AM

double post; ignore

Edited by alnair20aug93
24th Feb, 2021 08:26:13 AM

I only started changing "gypsy" to "Roma" because I saw that someone had started doing that on other pages, and also knew that the term was considered offensive. It was not my intention to be a bluenoser in any way, and I sincerely apologize if it came off like that! If needed, I can change everything back.

24th Feb, 2021 01:39:06 PM

^No, but "Uncensored exchange below" seems unnecessary.

24th Feb, 2021 01:43:02 PM

^^ If anything it's a bit verbose, especially "not dissimilar".

24th Feb, 2021 01:52:07 PM

Ok, I'll try to trim it.

26th Feb, 2021 12:29:50 AM

Guys. Focus.

Miss Gem Knight's has explained their explanation.

I recommend that it should be rewritten in context to the film.

Edited by alnair20aug93
26th Feb, 2021 08:44:48 AM

^^ Bluenose Bowdlerizer-ing is basically low effort censorship and thus prohibited. But in general, do we have guidelines on the use of ethnic slurs or would we need them?

v Using a problematic slur does not equal "hate speech". It depends if it's used in direct speech and how it's used. Just avoiding a problematic slur can be equally problematic as the stereotypes or racism can carry over to the new term. That's also why I think this might require some general guidelines.

Also, I'm just nitpicking, but "gypsy" is an ethnic slur, not racism, as Romani ain't a race. That doesn't mean that the term isn't offensive.

Edited by Sirena
26th Feb, 2021 09:01:39 AM

There's a difference between blue-nose bowdlerization and removing hate speech and racism. One is frowned upon, the other is policy.

So I guess it all boils down to: is the word "gypsy" a strong enough slur to qualify as hate speech, or at least openly racist, or is it just vaguely offensive?

I'll refrain from answering that since I'm not American, and this is a U.S. site for legal purposes.

Edited by GnomeTitan
27th Feb, 2021 01:43:43 AM

Punting this to the discussion page as it's far too long for ATT.

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