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19th Feb, 2021 08:23:24 AM

Distasteful as I find the book, we have no rule that only good books, or books with sound morals, should be featured. And the stub thing is for the main page, not the YMMV page.

19th Feb, 2021 08:45:04 AM

Right; from a glance at it it looks horrible but it's a published work and thus eligible for a trope page. It needs some cleanup but is otherwise not cut-worthy for that alone.

Edited by Synchronicity
19th Feb, 2021 08:49:38 AM

That page description is pretty yikes.

"J.K. Rowling checks her e-mail while drunk, and finds it full of hate mail because of her strange idea that women are actually women. She decides to take revenge on the people who sent her all the hate-mail, and for this purpose she used magic to turn transvestites into serial killers."

I'm not opposed to it having a page (surely it can't be worse than Mein Kampf and The Turner Diaries), but it shouldn't be written in a transphobic way.

Going by my understanding of the situation, is the book (and page) using "transvestite" as a synonym of "transgender"?

Edited by Zuxtron
19th Feb, 2021 08:53:31 AM

^^ The fact that the description is plagerized, however...

19th Feb, 2021 08:56:03 AM

^ Ah, I knew something felt off about that description.

19th Feb, 2021 08:57:32 AM

I'm a tad suspect of the way the page is written as it's pretty playfully supportive of the idea that trans women are evil. While we don't need to rewrite the page to clarify transphobia is bad every step of the way, I'm wondering if this is the best way to write about a book of this nature.

On a side note, some of the grammar of the page isn't great (there's some capitalization issues) and there's a good handful of ZCE.

19th Feb, 2021 09:09:38 AM

I honestly can't even tell if this book is supposed to be a parody or serious.

19th Feb, 2021 09:11:05 AM

The page is created by Asgrimur, by the way.

Looking through their edit history, the troper also have ZCE and grammar/capitalization issues, which is also apparent in the other work page they created, Literature.Cat Girls Have Four Ears

19th Feb, 2021 09:16:38 AM

>The YMMV page also has just two examples (less than three is a stub, right?).

This wasn't addressed at all, so here we are to say that the main page needs three examples to live, but the YMMV page does not; it just needs a main page to be attached to.

19th Feb, 2021 09:17:06 AM

^ I did adress it in the very first reply, though.

19th Feb, 2021 09:18:15 AM

Oh huh looks like we can't read very well :p

19th Feb, 2021 09:22:25 AM

And a lot of those pages feature YMMV on main, lack of proper capitalization, slashed tropes, ZCEs, and the occasional grammar mistake.

Plus, on the page that started this, the YMMV entry for Crosses the Line Twice features this sentence: "People who disagree with J. K. Rowling's ideas about the nature of women will be extra offended." I don't think I really have to explain why putting this in is problematic.

↓ Oh I have no doubt that it's correct, but it's both trope misuse and also generally not something that should be there. It's clear Flame Bait

19th Feb, 2021 09:45:30 AM

^ It's technically not a false statement...but it's extremely disingenuous, to say the least. Also not really a correct usage of Crosses the Line Twice, which is meant to explain how going over-the-top makes something funnier. This just sounds like being offensive just to make people angry.

Edited by mightymewtron
19th Feb, 2021 10:13:01 AM

Yes,~Asgrimur is Asi Hart. I've suspended them for badly-done self-promotion (including cropped versions of their book covers, plagiarizing from their Amazon descriptions, and adding YMMV), ZCE, and grammar errors. I'd appreciate if some attempt is made at cleaning their stubs before sending them to the Cut List, but I do expect several of the articles to end up there.

19th Feb, 2021 10:53:46 AM

I'm also cutlisting YMMV.JK Rowling Uses Magic To Turn Transvestites Into Serial Killers because after cutting the Crosses the Line Twice misuse, the only example left is a ZCE (and that entry might also be transphobic as well, from what little context I have).

Edited by mightymewtron
19th Feb, 2021 11:08:10 AM

So I commented out a bunch of examples that didn't have enough context, deleted some blatantly incorrect ones, and cut the description (admittedly to a stub) due to the plagiarism issues.

That said, shouldn't this be in Fan Fic/ not Literature/? Real-Person Fic is a thing so I assume that, well, we would consider them fics rather than Literature/.

19th Feb, 2021 01:36:53 PM

^ Yes, RPFs should go in Fanfic/.

19th Feb, 2021 02:45:48 PM

Well it is a published novel on amazon.

Not sure if that means anything?

19th Feb, 2021 02:53:40 PM

There are a small number of fanfics that are published, though admittedly self-published. Willing to bet this falls into that category.

22nd Feb, 2021 01:26:58 PM

I think there's a thread for namespace migration if you think it belongs in Fanfic/.

22nd Feb, 2021 01:49:40 PM

There's that, but there's also the cleanup of the various pages made by the person.

Because even those that aren't fanfics are... well, not great. Grabbing one at random, The Many Horrors Of Being A Tokyo Waitress has literally one example with sufficient context and that's not getting into my assumption that the description is lifted from the Amazon listing like the JK Rowling fanfic was.

EDIT: Jesus, and that's after someone went and commented out the really contextless example.

Edited by Larkmarn
22nd Feb, 2021 02:07:44 PM

Well, if there's not enough examples with context and nobody's fixed it in all this time, then send it to the cutlist.

22nd Feb, 2021 05:43:15 PM

Yeah, this looks too inflammatory to justify keeping around.

22nd Feb, 2021 06:29:03 PM

Perhaps you could take it to the ROCEJ cleanup if you haven't already?

22nd Feb, 2021 07:57:13 PM

I think this page should be on a cut list.

22nd Feb, 2021 08:07:35 PM

Then you can put it there and see if the mods agree.

Edit: Added it myself cause even after all of the ZCEs were commented out, there were only four examples, and two of them are still pretty much zero context.

22nd Feb, 2021 09:59:55 PM

While I do not support cutting work pages just because people are offended with their contents, I do agree that the page left in its current shape is too weak to stand. I support the cut.

Edited by Piterpicher
22nd Feb, 2021 10:00:27 PM

In theory, we're allowed to have fictional works on the site even if their subject matter is inflammatory. If there's four tropes on the page with the bare minimum of context...then I guess there's no technical reason to cut it? (Even if I wish the book didn't exist...)

EDIT: But if others think it's too weak in its current state then by all means, chop away.

Edited by mightymewtron
22nd Feb, 2021 10:02:30 PM

Yeah, even disregarding the content, the page being created by the author and only containing four examples after cleanup, two of which are still barebones in terms of context, as well as the potential issue over the namespace means I just don't see anything worth saving.

23rd Feb, 2021 06:28:44 AM

Real-Person Fic generally combines a fictional world with a real life celebrity. If it doesn't use an existing fictional world, then the use of a real celebrity wouldn't actually make it a fanfic. Regardless, I didn't expect the page to survive cleanup.

v Correct. I was addressing the namespace issue. The trope requires a real celebrity, but the Fanfic/ namespace requires an existing fictional world.

Edited by crazysamaritan
23rd Feb, 2021 07:20:04 AM

^ The Real-Person Fic page itself says that anything with real people is RPF, even without a "fictional world" as you claimed.

24th Feb, 2021 02:36:01 PM

^^ I'd say at least an existing fictional world or existing fictional characters. Otherwise Alternate Universe Fics that placed the characters in a "real world" setting, such as Modern AU Fics, wouldn't count.

Edited by Twiddler
24th Feb, 2021 03:02:07 PM

I think the Real-Person Fic debate could be continued on Trope Talk, and this query can be closed.


How well does it match the trope?

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