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Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2020-12-17 21:19:00

I know that speculative troping is always weird with things like this, but for the record, it’s already an Edit War at this point.

Edited by Arctimon
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-17 21:21:47

I mean, I thought reworking the trope before putting it back in would prevent an Edit War. It worked for the other tropes that were removed. Just, apparently, not this one.

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-12-17 21:25:44

the Word of God was [...] to provide context to the trope,
That's a violation of Speculative Troping.
Jeffrey Wright plays Uatu the Watcher in the show.
That's classic Zero-Context Examples (Alice is an example). You do not provide context to establish any observations provided, any actions that they failed to take, or what sort of ability they have to take action.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2020-12-17 21:27:03

(^Ninja'd but...)

I don't think the entry is really clear about exactly what The Watcher entails, nor does it explain how the character fits the type in the show. Trope Namer or not, you still need to explain the character's behavior beyond Word of God saying "this is what I think he acts like." Also, "he's well known from the comics" isn't really a great excuse when a franchise constantly alters character traits in different continuities, and not everybody who watches this show will have seen other works featuring The Watcher.

Edited by mightymewtron I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-17 21:35:05

"That's classic Zero-Context Examples (Alice is an example)."

The problem is, of course, the context is him saying "I am the Watcher" in the trailer. There's no other context (other than him talking about space/time/reality being a "prism of possibility").

Of course, we have seen Watchers before in the MCU: Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2 have a trio of Watchers interviewing Stan Lee.

"Also, "he's well known from the comics" isn't really a great excuse when a franchise constantly alters character traits in different continuities, and not everybody who watches this show will have seen other works featuring The Watcher."

Considering what's in the trailer and the Watchers we've seen before, I highly doubt that the show will change a fundamental aspect of the character (their job is to watch), especially since it's the premise of the show itself.

Edited by alliterator
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-12-17 21:39:01

The issue here is that tropes aren't just "Character is X" or "Character does X". The tropes are the patterns- the tropes are the meanings and the why. How is this character an example of the trope, and not just of the trope namer?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-17 22:01:43

"The issue here is that tropes aren't just "Character is X" or "Character does X"."

Tropes are exactly like that, except with added context. "Character does X" is a pattern, because otherwise it would be People Sit on Chairs. The Watcher is a trope because it's more specific than just "someone who watches."

For example: an Action Girl is a "female badass who is tough and kicks butt." How is this not "Character does X"? Sure, you add context to it so that it's not just a list of names (because that would be boring), but that's the trope.

Uatu is an example of The Watcher because he literally states that he is the Watcher, his narration of the trailer making it clear that he's the one observing these alternate universes.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-12-17 22:06:42

Careful with mentioning Action Girl, that trope's under a cleanup effort right now and may even become an example-less supertrope like Badass is. Not the best example to use there.

If the trailer's narration explains it clearly, why not use that instead of the pizza-rat quote, which doesn't explain the trope?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-17 22:10:35

I did. I originally listed the trope as:

  • The Watcher: Uatu the Watcher not only appears in the show, but is also the apparent narrator. The trailer opens with him describing space/time/reality as a "prism of endless possibility."

Alphatater removed that for "speculation." Since he's the narrator of the trailer, I don't understand how calling him the "apparent narrator" is in any way speculation, though.

Perhaps instead I could use:

  • The Watcher: Uatu the Watcher's opening narration describes space, time, and reality as a "prism of endless possibility."

But that sounds more like it would fit The Multiverse.

Edited by alliterator
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-17 22:18:31

Okay, found a better quote from the trailer: "I am the Watcher. I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and dare to face the unknown."

mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2020-12-17 22:59:42

Narrator of a trailer doesn't necessarily guarantee he'll be the narrator of the show.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-17 23:00:59

No, but saying "I am your guide through these vast new realities" pretty much does.

mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2020-12-18 00:01:59

That's still a bit vague. For all we know, he could just be a standard Narrator.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
2020-12-18 01:19:12

If it's any help.

https://deadline.com/2019/07/jeffrey-wright-what-if-narrator-marvel-animated-series-the-watcher-1202649963/

Looks like he will be the narrator and guide to the show and realities itself.

' “The Watcher is a non-earthly being who observes all things. He’s watching over the multi-verse and occasionally may or may not intervene with the doings of earthlings,” Wright said." '

Edited by Tuvok
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-12-18 05:57:31

All There in the Manual, Word of God, and Word of Saint Paul, for practical and pragmatic reasons, are banned from being the sole source of an example, or having examples of their own. They are defined by their relationship to the final work, but we cannot compare it to said work until we have the released work. In covering pre-release works, we are only troping things that purport to represent the work itself, and its advertising solely as advertising.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 06:34:58

Yeah, I know we can't use Word of God, but apparently "I am your guide" is too vague? What's the middle ground here?

For Ink-Suit Actor, I linked to an article stating that the cel-shaded animation was making the characters look like the actors, but that was also supported by the animation in the trailer itself. Why can't we do the same for The Watcher?

Edited by alliterator
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-12-18 09:02:45

The Doctor from Doctor Who is also "your guide" for their companions, yet they do not fit the trope of a powerful figure that only observes and never takes action.


[Edit:] Also, "occasionally may [...] intervene with the doings of earthlings" is definately an aversion of The Watcher.

Edited by crazysamaritan Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 10:04:11

"Also, "occasionally may [...] intervene with the doings of earthlings" is definitely an aversion of The Watcher."

It isn't, actually: read the trope description for The Watcher: "Yet, strangely, instead of remaining completely passive it will probably give some advice to the hero and then disappear, or otherwise interfere in some small (but important) way to help the heroes triumph."

"The Doctor from Doctor Who is also "your guide" for their companions"

Um...no, they aren't. The Doctor has never stated that they are a guide to their companions to my recollection. They travel around the universe with the companion, yes, but they aren't a guide to the universe.

The better description here would be The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which acts similar to the Watcher, describing for the viewer aspects of the universe/multiverse. It's pretty clear from the trailer that the Watcher is talking directly to the audience, much like the Hitchhiker's Guide, too.

The Watcher acts, in this series, more akin to an Anthology Host (like Rod Serling) than the Doctor.

Edited by alliterator
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-12-18 11:06:55

The Watcher acts, in this series, more akin to an Anthology Host (like Rod Serling) than the Doctor.
Oh, you've seen this series that isn't out yet?
The Doctor has never stated that they are a guide to their companions to my recollection.
That's nice. I don't expect you to remember every episode. DOCTOR: An important thing. In fact, Thing One. We are observers only. That's the one rule I've always stuck to in all my travels. I never get involved in the affairs of other peoples or planets.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2020-12-18 11:09:22

samaritan: You're coming off as a bit supercilious. Just saying.

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-12-18 11:25:51

I'm not the one making unreasonable claims of knowledge.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2020-12-18 11:27:54

You're still coming off as a bit supercilious. I mean, come on—sarcastically saying "Oh, you've seen this series that isn't out yet?" isn't exactly an indicator of somebody trying to be polite, right? It'd be so easy to say the same thing nicer.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-12-18 11:31:33

Anyway, the problem here is that you're claiming with certainty that this is how the character will be portayed in the work. But so far the only work available is the trailer.

Consider it from a different angle of troping the trailer as a separate, self-contained work.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Mimic1990 Since: Oct, 2016
2020-12-18 11:40:32

This is why I don't think we should trope works that aren't out yet. It always turns into this.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 11:44:58

"Oh, you've seen this series that isn't out yet?"

I've seen the trailer where he literally tells the audience "I am your guide through these vast new realities."

"That's nice. I don't expect you to remember every episode. DOCTOR: An important thing. In fact, Thing One. We are observers only. That's the one rule I've always stuck to in all my travels. I never get involved in the affairs of other peoples or planets."

1: He says "observers" not "a guide." 2: He immediately contradicts himself when he interferes with a crying child. (He's also clearly lying as he always gets involved in the affairs of other peoples and planets.)

"I'm not the one making unreasonable claims of knowledge."

I'm not making unreasonable claims of knowledge. If you combine the fact that the Watcher literally says "I am your guide through these vast new realities" with the Word of God that he is the narrator of the show, you get the fact that the Watcher is the host of this anthology show, a la Rod Serling. Which, coincidentally, he also happened to be in the original comic book this show is based on.

Edited by alliterator
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2020-12-18 11:59:40

^ No, you are speculating that the Watcher will be the host of the show.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 12:13:14

How else can one interpret "I am your guide through these vast new realities"?

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-12-18 12:21:57

You ignored what I said about treating the trailer less as a preview of the actual work and more as a separate, distinct work in and of itself. That's the spirit of the policy.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 12:25:41

"You ignored what I said about treating the trailer less as a preview of the actual work and more as a separate, distinct work in and of itself."

But...that ignores the fact that the trailer is a preview of the actual work. Unless it's a fake trailer or something like that, a trailer is always a preview of a longer work.

In any case, what you are saying, however, is if I just say the Watcher is the narrator of the trailer, everything is fine?

MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2020-12-18 12:40:54

Things are sometimes changed from how they look in the trailer. Theoretically, they might remove him from the actual show (though that's unlikely, of course).

Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2020-12-18 12:44:01

if I just say the Watcher is the narrator of the trailer, everything is fine?

The writeup would have to be further parsed, but in theory, yes. The point is that you can't make claims about the show from what's shown in the trailer, but you can trope the trailers by themselves.

Edited by Synchronicity
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 12:47:05

So would this, then, be fine:

  • The Watcher: The Watcher narrates the trailer, saying, "I am your guide through these vast new realities."

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-12-18 12:47:33

1: He says "observers" not "a guide."
Semantics; we are talking about a character that does not interfere with the events of the plot. Watcher/guide/observer/gosfrabau, the term is irrelevant. He made the claim that he and his companions are not allowed to change the events they observe.

2: He immediately contradicts himself when he interferes with a crying child.
Because the episode is longer than a two-minute trailer. Huh, maybe that's why the trailer shouldn't be used to speculate about the work itself. We have no clue if the Watcher is going to be like a guidebook, something that speaks to the audience and the characters freely, like the Doctor, who sometimes speaks to the audience and also regularly intervenes in the plot, or like an Anthology Host, who never shows up in the work itself, only a Framing Device to describe the premise of the episode. We have no clue because the trailer isn't enough context to determine his role in the story.
I'm not making unreasonable claims of knowledge.
Really? Then why would it matter if you remembered what the Doctor said? You should've challenged me to provide a quote, but instead you implied that I was just wrong (I responded with a quote and link anyway) because you couldn't recall an example of that and cited another franchise as evidence that this work must work the way you expect it to. You "highly doubt that the show will change a fundamental aspect of the character" because... what? Adaptation Deviation doesn't exist? Nobody has ever used Not As You Know Them for a comicbook protagonist? Tropes are not what probably happens or happened. You need to know definitively that this will not be changed for the work before you can say it is an example. That, or you need to be able to say how they are an example of that in the five seconds they appear in the trailer.
if I just say the Watcher is the narrator of the trailer, everything is fine?
As context for Character Narrator or Narrator? That is good. As context for The Watcher? No, it isn't.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 12:51:25

"Semantics; we are talking about a character that does not interfere with the events of the plot."

Except The Watcher does interfere with the events of the plot. Again, that's part of the trope.

"Because the episode is longer than a two-minute trailer."

I...never said it wasn't? I have no idea who you are arguing against, but it isn't me.

"You need to know definitively that this will not be changed for the work before you can say it is an example."

I definitively know that the Watcher will be the Watcher in the show.

(This is like that old joke where someone sees a horse and then explains how they only know the color of one side of the horse because they can't see the other side.)

Edited by alliterator
Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2020-12-18 12:53:50

So would this, then, be fine:

The Watcher: The Watcher narrates the trailer, saying, "I am your guide through these vast new realities."

...No. As pointed out above, this is context for Character Narrator. You *can* say something like, "In the trailer, he is portrayed as an omniscient alien being who [other context found in the trailer here]". But you can't speculate that this will be the case for the show based off a line.

I definitively know that the Watcher will be the Watcher in the show.

You can't, though. That's the whole point. Even within the MCU they've altered established characters from the comics and marketing (eg. the Mandarin turning out to be completely different from the actor announced to play him). When troping upcoming works assume Trailers Always Lie.

Edited by Synchronicity
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 12:56:04

Okay, how about:

  • The Watcher: In the trailer, the Watcher appears as an alien being with a Celestial Body and the ability to view alternate universes, saying, "I am your guide through these vast new realities."

"You can't, though. That's the whole point."

I mean, I can, though. He literally says "I am the Watcher." Plus, we have examples of other Watchers from GOTG Vol 2. Also, even if I can't use it in the page yet, we have Word of God saying what he's like. Unless they are a Lying Creator, which I doubt.

Edited by alliterator
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2020-12-18 13:01:55

^ Still not an example of the trope.

MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2020-12-18 13:10:02

Him saying "I am the Watcher" isn't the same as him saying "I am The Watcher." He's not talking about tropes.

Using the name "The Watcher" doesn't mean he fits the description of the trope.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 13:13:44

"Still not an example of the trope."

Someone who watches alternate universes from afar is...not an example of The Watcher? Despite the fact that this is exactly what the Watcher does? I don't understand.

"Him saying "I am the Watcher" isn't the same as him saying "I am The Watcher." He's not talking about tropes."

I mean, at this point, I'm not even referring to the trope, I'm referring to the character. I can call the Watcher the Watcher (not The Watcher) because he says "I am the Watcher."

Rereading that last sentence, I believe Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

Edited by alliterator
Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2020-12-18 13:23:51

even if I can't use it in the page yet, we have Word of God saying what he's like. Unless they are a Lying Creator, which I doubt.

Again: "You can't use Word of God" and "trope it under the assumption that the promotional material is all lies". This isn't an arbitrary rule we made up for this page, this is the whole principle behind troping upcoming works.

Look, I wholeheartedly believe Uatu will do what he says you will do in the show. But you cannot put it on the page now in that way because it's against the rules.

Plus, we have examples of other Watchers from GOTG Vol 2.

And they weren't exactly shown fulfilling The Watcher role there, either, so there's no previous canon basis that the guy in What If...? will do this. For someone who doesn't know the comics, they were just a bunch of big aliens listening to Stan Lee talk.

Edited by Synchronicity
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 13:30:49

Okay, but I haven't put that on the page. Right now, the page says this:

  • The Watcher: In the trailer, the Watcher appears as an alien being with a Celestial Body and the ability to view alternate universes, saying, "I am your guide through these vast new realities."

From what I can discern, that's all fine because it comes straight from the trailer and "views alternate universes from afar" is pretty much The Watcher, isn't it?

JapaneseTeeth Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 13:32:57

Someone who watches alternate universes from afar is...not an example of The Watcher? Despite the fact that this is exactly what the Watcher does?

Because we don't know if that's exactly what the Watcher does in the show until we actually see the show. We can infer from the trailers and his roles in other media that he will be The Watcher (the trope) in the show, but we can't say for certain until the show is actually released. The trope The Watcher is basically "a character whose role is purely to observe without interfering, who may occasionally intervene anyway." The trailer by itself does not provide enough context to confirm that he'll qualify. There just isn't enough indication of what his ultimate role in the show will be. As for the other arguments:

  • "Word of God" claims that he'll fit the trope.
    • When it comes to yet-to-be-released works, Word of God is unreliable. Things can change between their statement and the actual release, and they might just be lying.

  • "The character is this trope in the other media (comics, etc.)"
    • That may be true, but it's irrelevant to this particular iteration of the character.

  • "He says 'I am the Watcher' in the trailer"

And I want to clarify, I'm not saying that he won't be an example (he almost certainly will be), only that as of the time of writing, we don't have enough context to write a meaningful entry about how he's an example.

TL;DR comment the example out for now and when the show actually airs, re-write it with full context.

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 13:41:06

Okay, at this point, I'm not even using "I am the Watcher" as an example. I left that behind a while ago, only using it as an example of him being the character of the Watcher, not the trope. (We really need to rename The Watcher. Perhaps The Observer?)

The line I'm using is the one that comes right after it, "I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and dare to face the unknown."

Edited by alliterator
Twiddler MOD (On A Trope Odyssey)
2020-12-18 13:45:02

"Views alternate universes from afar" is not enough for the trope. Non-interference (or at least claiming non-interference) is a key part.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 13:54:50

Okay, well, is there a trope for "I am your guide through these vast new realities?"

shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
2020-12-18 14:10:47

There probably is, but we don't have enough context to tell which one(s). Best to just wait until the work is actually released.

Twiddler MOD (On A Trope Odyssey)
2020-12-18 14:11:20

I don't know. But if you can't find a trope, don't force it.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
2020-12-18 14:15:32

Okay, but we really need to rename The Watcher. Something like "Emergencies Only Observer" or something.

ATricksterArtist (Not-So-Newbie)
2020-12-18 14:26:51

This is starting to get lengthy for an ATT discussion. Should we move somewhere else or just drop it?

How's your day been?
Twiddler MOD (On A Trope Odyssey)
2020-12-18 14:30:06

Seems like it's wrapped up.

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