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Mimic1990 Since: Oct, 2016
2020-11-25 21:18:49

Well, I haven't played the game, but if it's like Pyramid Head then the answer is NO.

The Big Bad, in the manner that TV Tropes uses it, is defined as a singular entity or force which is at odds with the protagonist and whose existence serves to compel the plot to move forward.

Pyramid Head is not a Big Bad because, while he is a singular entity at odds with the protagonist, his existence does not compel the plot to move forward. Defeating Pyramid Head is not the point, nor is it even possible. I'm curious as to who else you've seen calling Pyramid Head the Big Bad of Silent Hill 2... considering he's not listed as such on the page or anything...

The Big Bad is NOT just "the monster that most frequently gets in your way." If it was, then the Big Bad of Super Mario Bros. would be the common goomba instead of Bowser. :p

As I said, I don't know your specific example. The question to ask yourself is: is defeating Demon Liza the point of the game?

Edited by Mimic1990
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-11-25 21:22:30

The answer to the directly asked question is "yes". However, you are still not providing evidence that they're the cause of all bad happenings in a story. A Recurring Villain is not by themselves the Big Bad. The Antagonist of the work is not always the Big Bad. The Heavy is usually not the Big Bad. The Mental Monster has to not only be an obstacle to overcome, but also create/send additional obstacles against the protagonist.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-11-25 21:22:49

The point of the game is that Willie is in a "Groundhog Day" Loop, constantly attempting to confess his feelings for Liza. The demon version of her is a manifestation of that conflict. Willie doesn't move on and accept his death until moving on from Liza.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Mimic1990 Since: Oct, 2016
2020-11-25 21:43:08

But that still doesn't answer the question.

To go back to the Silent Hill example, Pyramid Head wasn't the Big Bad of that game, because he wasn't the cause of it all. He didn't create the supernatural goings-on of the town, nor did he maintain them. He was himself a byproduct of them, and never tried to be anything more.

So, did Demon Liza create the "Groundhog Day" Loop? Or was it simply a byproduct of it? Or, even if it did only come about as a byproduct of the supernatural whatevers, did it then take on a life and a mind of its own, and start actively working to maintain the loop so that it can keep the hero trapped there?

If so, then it might be the Big Bad. If not, then it's definitely not.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-11-25 21:59:40

I believe she's a side-effect of his Sanity Slippage, yeah. Willie is doing this to himself by refusing to move on.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
MasterN Since: Aug, 2016
2020-11-25 22:06:23

But she does try to kill him if he gets too far to the truth, so I think that qualifies as “actively working to maintain the loop so that it can keep the hero trapped there”. Also, I remember the description used to say that the Big Bad could be the biggest obstacle to the heroes goals, even if they were not personally responsible for the conflict, if the conflict was caused by something non-sentient. Did that get deleted as misuse?

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2020-11-25 22:35:53

If she's anything like Mal Cobb from Inception (an entity created by the protagonist's own psyche to torment him), then Big Bad is feasible. Mal has a Big Bad entry because was the final antagonizing force Cobb needed to avoid and confront in order to solve the immediate plot.

MasterN Since: Aug, 2016
2020-11-25 22:50:36

Pretty sure that is exactly what she is- and what Pyramid Head and ”Mary” from Silent Hill 2 are, for that matter.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-11-25 23:34:57

Shouldn't this discussion be happening here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15501563720A97445500&page=1 ?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-11-25 23:39:22

I mean, if you want to do some necromancy. That project died within a month. :/

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2020-11-26 01:13:16

Yes, it should. Necromancy or not.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-11-26 10:24:32

Alright, then. As per Word of Mod, let's go to that thread.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
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